PDA

View Full Version : Feet wet/feet dry pitch "hiccup"



faustnik
12-19-2006, 10:10 AM
Ernst,

Running DF servers in the Fw190 is fun, but, the challenge for Fw190 pilots comes in historic COOPs that are objective oriented. Our squad flies a lot of Scorched Earth campaigns and our Fw190s are used for jabo work, point defense and intercept. Pretty much all of these can leave you in the unfortunate low-E position.

In this case, you have to rely on your teamwork and close-in dogfighting tactics. The Fw190 can out-turn any plane in the sim, for the first 45 degrees. I know it sounds strange but, the roll rate gives the Fw190 this ability. By rolling much faster into the turn the Fw190 starts the turn sooner so, has a momentary advantage. With one Fw190 this is helpful but, with two or more Fw190 it becomes deadly. Any Allied fighter trying to stay in a scissors fight with a pack of Wulfs is going to be subjected to deflection shots from a trailing Fw190's 20mm guns.

I'll mention Jabo work again as this was a very important histotic use of the Fw190. I don't have the version code (U3???, bottom of the list with SC500), but, pick the jabo version with full guns and no wing racks. This version is still fast and has full armament after you drop. Climb to a good altitude before crossing the lines and maintain a tight formation. After crossing the lines, begin a very shallow dive to gain speed. Depending on target, go trail or wedge and set up for the drop. Enter the target area at high speed 500kph+ and perform you drop. Exit in a straight line with a little rudder to confuse flak. Check the area for enemy a/c and if you are clear begin a shallow climb on exit.

Also, take all your tricks with the Fw190 and try them with the P-47. The Jug works really well with the same tactics.

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://pages.sbcglobal.net/mdegnan/_images/FaustJumboSig.jpg
VFS (http://www.virtualfightersquadrons.com/)
Focke-Wulf 190 Consortium (http://www.acompletewasteofspace.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewforum&f=8)
The Lockheed Syndicate (http://www.acompletewasteofspace.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewforum&f=18)
Hawker Haven (http://www.acompletewasteofspace.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewforum&f=19)
CWOS FB Forum More cheese, less whine (http://www.acompletewasteofspace.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewforum&f=7)
Magnum PCSupport our support guys! (http://www.magnum-pc.com/)

Ernst_Rohr
12-19-2006, 10:34 AM
Thanks, exactly what I was after.

I need to try the Jug, but I just HATE the visibility out of the early models. The later ones have great visibility, especially since the dont have the top of the bubble bar that the 190's do (the one thing I really dislike about the 190 canopy).

I would love to try some cooperative tactics. Unfotunately, a lot of the dogfight servers lack that, and the Blue side in particular seems to be populated by packs of lone wolves.

We did a historic coop the weekend before last, in 190A4's, and it went well. I did a write up of the after action report for the forums as well.

Im starting to really enjoy the 190, where I used to hate the plane before, so any other info is great, since I am trying to work up my skills in this bird. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

"Have you ever noticed? Anybody going slower than you is an idiot, and anyone going faster than you is a moron."
--George Carlin

tigertalon
12-19-2006, 10:41 AM
Just in case you haven't seen this yet Rohr, very useful:

http://www.airwarfare.com/tactics/tactics_fwtactics.htm<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

<span class="ev_code_BLACK"><pre class="ip-ubbcode-code-pre">???An evil exists that threatens every man, woman and child in this great nation.

JuHa-
12-19-2006, 11:03 AM
Originally posted by faustnik:
I don't have the version code (U3???, bottom of the list with SC500)

R-series. The U-ones are more like deathtraps in IL2. R-ones, however, are decent ones.

faustnik
12-19-2006, 11:19 AM
Thanks Juha. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://pages.sbcglobal.net/mdegnan/_images/FaustJumboSig.jpg
VFS (http://www.virtualfightersquadrons.com/)
Focke-Wulf 190 Consortium (http://www.acompletewasteofspace.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewforum&f=8)
The Lockheed Syndicate (http://www.acompletewasteofspace.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewforum&f=18)
Hawker Haven (http://www.acompletewasteofspace.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewforum&f=19)
CWOS FB Forum More cheese, less whine (http://www.acompletewasteofspace.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewforum&f=7)
Magnum PCSupport our support guys! (http://www.magnum-pc.com/)

La7_brook
12-19-2006, 11:48 AM
42 / 43 mods are great dogfights too ,takes alittle work too learn but its not all BnZ http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

Ernst_Rohr
12-19-2006, 11:58 AM
Originally posted by La7_brook:
42 / 43 mods are great dogfights too ,takes alittle work too learn but its not all BnZ http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

Yep, I agree, the A5 with the higher manifold pressure is a pretty sweet ride. I rode that this Saturday, and it really screams! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

"Have you ever noticed? Anybody going slower than you is an idiot, and anyone going faster than you is a moron."
--George Carlin

Xiolablu3
12-19-2006, 12:31 PM
FW190 is the best plane in the game once you have some experience in flying. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

You have just started to get into a whole new style of flying 'as if you were in the plane'. You will see your deaths go down and your score go up! Stick with it mate!

If you want to try some teamwork, come and fly on Ukdedicated2 sometime, you will find plenty of teamwork on there, especially if you get on teamspeak as well.

http://forums.<b style="color:black;background-color:#a0ffff">ubi[/b].com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/23110283/m/519...241042215#9241042215 (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/23110283/m/5191002215?r=9241042215#9241042215)

Remember, dogfighting is too dangerous, why bother? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

--------------------------------------------------------------------
"I despise what you say; I will defend to the death your right to say it."
-Voltaire

faustnik
12-19-2006, 12:35 PM
Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
FW190 is the best plane in the game once you have some experience in flying. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

You have just started to get into a whole new style of flying 'as if you were in the plane'. You will see your deaths go down and your score go up! Stci with it mate!

Remember, dogfighting is too dangerous, why bother? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

The "style" of flying is as important as the plane. As I said before, the Jug is very good at it and one of the best, by far, is the Spit VIII clipped.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://pages.sbcglobal.net/mdegnan/_images/FaustJumboSig.jpg
VFS (http://www.virtualfightersquadrons.com/)
Focke-Wulf 190 Consortium (http://www.acompletewasteofspace.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewforum&f=8)
The Lockheed Syndicate (http://www.acompletewasteofspace.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewforum&f=18)
Hawker Haven (http://www.acompletewasteofspace.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewforum&f=19)
CWOS FB Forum More cheese, less whine (http://www.acompletewasteofspace.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewforum&f=7)
Magnum PCSupport our support guys! (http://www.magnum-pc.com/)

Brain32
12-19-2006, 12:45 PM
Yep, I agree, the A5 with the higher manifold pressure is a pretty sweet ride. I rode that this Saturday, and it really screams!
Although I can hold my own very well even in a heavy A9, if you really want to mix it up, I warmly recommend FW190A6, by far the best DF'er of all FW's in it's time.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

This is my sig http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Ernst_Rohr
12-19-2006, 01:22 PM
Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
FW190 is the best plane in the game once you have some experience in flying. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

You have just started to get into a whole new style of flying 'as if you were in the plane'. You will see your deaths go down and your score go up! Stci with it mate!

Remember, dogfighting is too dangerous, why bother? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Yep, that "style" was making me quite unpopular with some folks though! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

I had one pilot who lacked a lot of flight time tell me I was "haxxing!" because I was too fast and he couldnt catch me! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

My best run was one dive through the middle of a big furball. I had a 109 call out for help, saw the guy chasing him, boomed in blasted the Spit, exited the fight. One kill.
While exiting the fight at high speed, I saw two other Spits, slightly below me, running in level to the fight. I nosed down slightly and fired just in front of the lead Spit, and potted his engine. (Total blind luck, not skill, TBH).
At the very edge of the fight, a Spit and a 109 were having a vertical fight, and as I was leaving, the Spit pulled up into a hammerhead. I popped up and gave him a quick snap burst, rolled over and pulled back down to level, rolled again, and exited the fight. Got the Enemy Aircraft Destroyed on the way out. Never got below 400kph! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

"Have you ever noticed? Anybody going slower than you is an idiot, and anyone going faster than you is a moron."
--George Carlin

Xiolablu3
12-19-2006, 01:31 PM
Originally posted by faustnik:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
FW190 is the best plane in the game once you have some experience in flying. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

You have just started to get into a whole new style of flying 'as if you were in the plane'. You will see your deaths go down and your score go up! Stci with it mate!

Remember, dogfighting is too dangerous, why bother? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

The "style" of flying is as important as the plane. As I said before, the Jug is very good at it and one of the best, by far, is the Spit VIII clipped. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Spitfire? Really? I find it too slow nowadays to fly the 'FW190/P47 style' , I am always getting run down by faster planes.

I agree totally about the Jug, its my new love.

Ernst I added a bit about teamwork/server in my previous post. Look forward to flying with you.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

--------------------------------------------------------------------
"I despise what you say; I will defend to the death your right to say it."
-Voltaire

faustnik
12-19-2006, 02:55 PM
Originally posted by Xiolablu3:

Spitfire? Really? I find it too slow nowadays to fly the 'FW190/P47 style' , I am always getting run down by faster planes.

The clipped Spit VIII is excellent for B&Z. It is very good in a dive with excellent elevator control at all speeds. It climbs well enough to gain a good position for a diving attack. I like the VIII best out of all the Spitfires. Using altitude and dive speed, you can catch the planes that might have faster level speeds. Also, there are some nice USAAF skins for the Mk. VIII, which makes a Spitfire much better looking. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://pages.sbcglobal.net/mdegnan/_images/FaustJumboSig.jpg
VFS (http://www.virtualfightersquadrons.com/)
Focke-Wulf 190 Consortium (http://www.acompletewasteofspace.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewforum&f=8)
The Lockheed Syndicate (http://www.acompletewasteofspace.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewforum&f=18)
Hawker Haven (http://www.acompletewasteofspace.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewforum&f=19)
CWOS FB Forum More cheese, less whine (http://www.acompletewasteofspace.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewforum&f=7)
Magnum PCSupport our support guys! (http://www.magnum-pc.com/)

Gumtree
12-19-2006, 03:41 PM
Great to see a post about how good your current ride is instead of the usual Spitfire bashing posts I have come to despise on these forums. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Perhaps some of us are finally growing up and can start having more mature conversations, instead of whines......hmm looking back on this post it looks like I am whingeing about whine's http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a387/WTE_Target/450targetubisig.jpg

faustnik
12-19-2006, 04:00 PM
Speaking of B&Z, the plane that REALLY sucks for this is the Bf109. The high speed elevators are lame. The only saving grace is the jumbo cannon in the nose, if you do get a shot, is does a number.

******************

Xio,

Back to the Spitfires and hit & run, I think it is Warclouds that gives them a hard time. That Dora is just SO fast and climb SO well that Spitfires have to really have some superior SA and thoughtful positioning. If the Spits let their speed and altitude drop, they are just targets. I haven't tried the Tempest enough, but, would like to more.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://pages.sbcglobal.net/mdegnan/_images/FaustJumboSig.jpg
VFS (http://www.virtualfightersquadrons.com/)
Focke-Wulf 190 Consortium (http://www.acompletewasteofspace.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewforum&f=8)
The Lockheed Syndicate (http://www.acompletewasteofspace.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewforum&f=18)
Hawker Haven (http://www.acompletewasteofspace.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewforum&f=19)
CWOS FB Forum More cheese, less whine (http://www.acompletewasteofspace.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewforum&f=7)
Magnum PCSupport our support guys! (http://www.magnum-pc.com/)

Xiolablu3
12-19-2006, 04:04 PM
Originally posted by faustnik:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Xiolablu3:

Spitfire? Really? I find it too slow nowadays to fly the 'FW190/P47 style' , I am always getting run down by faster planes.

The clipped Spit VIII is excellent for B&Z. It is very good in a dive with excellent elevator control at all speeds. It climbs well enough to gain a good position for a diving attack. I like the VIII best out of all the Spitfires. Using altitude and dive speed, you can catch the planes that might have faster level speeds. Also, there are some nice USAAF skins for the Mk. VIII, which makes a Spitfire much better looking. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Its my favourite Spitfire too! I agree shes a sweet bird, but having got used to the faster, worse turning planes, I now find that I much prefer having the speed and dont miss being able to turn tight.

I feel so vulnerable in a SPitfire these days, becasue I know I will have to fight if someone attacks me as most planes are faster than me.

I guess I have just not been flying the SPit much recently (I always fly 109F4 in 1941 or FW190 in later years if I can) Last time I flew a Spitfire it was a MkVc2 vs 109F4's and I was run down and eventually killed after a few evasive moves. I couldnt help but think ' that would never have happened in a 109F4 or FW190!' http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

The turning is great for avoiding attacks, but if the 109/190 is patient and just climbs rather than follow your turn, he can keep his energy and you completely lose all yours. By the end I was a sitting duck. Being able to lower your nose and zoom away if someone is chasing you is a very big advantage to have, and I have got so used to having that advantage, I now really miss it if its not there!

EDIT: I actually like B&Z in the 109F4 for B&Z in 1941. The elevator isnt too bad, and the other day 3 of us shot down 6 Spitfires in a furball becasue we kept our energy while they tried to draw us into TnB. Each time they got on one of our 6's we dragged them for a teamate and shot them down. I love the 109F4 and think its the best plane in 1941. I totally agree about the later 109's tho. The 109F4 is very nice compared to the 1941 opposition, it feels so powerful compared to 1941 Spitfire v's, Hurricanes and P40's, but once they get faster 109G6,G10 etc the elevator is too much of a hindrance for me at those high speeds.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

--------------------------------------------------------------------
"I despise what you say; I will defend to the death your right to say it."
-Voltaire

Lurch1962
12-19-2006, 04:13 PM
Lads,
I've checked in these forums occasionally, and haven't seen a reference to this quirk that's been present since before AEP.

Namely, whenever I fly over any shoreline (including river banks), the plane executes a little twitch in pitch attitude. I forget in which sense this occurs, but when going feet wet this induced moment goes in one direction, and when going feet dry, it goes in the opposite direction.

Anyone else detect this? And why is it happening?

VW-IceFire
12-19-2006, 04:22 PM
I hadn't noticed that...but I have noticed the occasional buffeting that didn't come from my joystick and I assumed that to be from random turbulence.

Maybe the game has some primitive pressure difference variable built in and the flight model gives your plane a little tug when you cross the threshold?<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://home.cogeco.ca/~cczerneda/sigs/icefire-tempestv.jpg
Find my missions at Flying Legends (http://www.flying-legends.net/php/downloads/downloads.php?cat_id=19) and Mission4Today.com (http://www.mission4today.com).

Feathered_IV
12-19-2006, 04:23 PM
Differential air currents perhaps?<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

***********************************************

http://server2.uploadit.org/files/Feathered-sigpic.jpg

"Intelligent, normally observant and answered all questions freely. He was arrogant and proud to be a pilot. Fellow prisoners in hospital consider him mentally unstable."

berg417448
12-19-2006, 04:38 PM
Originally posted by Lurch1962:
Lads,
I've checked in these forums occasionally, and haven't seen a reference to this quirk that's been present since before AEP.

Namely, whenever I fly over any shoreline (including river banks), the plane executes a little twitch in pitch attitude. I forget in which sense this occurs, but when going feet wet this induced moment goes in one direction, and when going feet dry, it goes in the opposite direction.

Anyone else detect this? And why is it happening?


Yes...I've noticed that as well. It has been that way for a long time.

Viper2005_
12-19-2006, 04:57 PM
Spitfires and 190s are opposite sides of the same coin.

You can T&B or B&Z in either aeroplane.

Both are better suited to B&Z IMO.

The difference is that whilst the 190 likes to disengage by running on the level and then entering a high speed climb, the Spitfire really likes to spiral climb.

Both are simply methods of gaining an energy advantage over the opposition.

The Spitfire is actually a very fast aeroplane. The Mk.VIII has the same top speed as the A9 at 3000 m, and can of course get there rather more quickly. Ditto the Mk. IX. Whereas the Anton pilot is often best advised to run away on the deck, the Spitfire pilot is often best advised to climb.

But whilst the details differ, the concepts are identical.
<span class="ev_code_red">
* Build up a store of energy

* Use that energy to buy your desired geometry (firing solutions or disengagement)

* Repeat until fuel or ammunition shortage dictates a return to base
</span>

vocatx
12-19-2006, 05:02 PM
Been there quite a while. I can't remember when I first noticed it now, but it was back about patch 4.02 or so. I think it came along when the 'ground effect' effect was added...<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

4H_V-man
The 2nd Horseman

Lurch1962
12-19-2006, 05:29 PM
But this happens at ALL altitudes. There's no ground effect at 3km. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/354.gif

--Lurch

Ernst_Rohr
12-19-2006, 05:35 PM
Originally posted by Viper2005_:
Spitfires and 190s are opposite sides of the same coin.

You can T&B or B&Z in either aeroplane.

Both are better suited to B&Z IMO.

The difference is that whilst the 190 likes to disengage by running on the level and then entering a high speed climb, the Spitfire really likes to spiral climb.

Both are simply methods of gaining an energy advantage over the opposition.

The Spitfire is actually a very fast aeroplane. The Mk.VIII has the same top speed as the A9 at 3000 m, and can of course get there rather more quickly. Ditto the Mk. IX. Whereas the Anton pilot is often best advised to run away on the deck, the Spitfire pilot is often best advised to climb.

But whilst the details differ, the concepts are identical.
<span class="ev_code_red">
* Build up a store of energy

* Use that energy to buy your desired geometry (firing solutions or disengagement)

* Repeat until fuel or ammunition shortage dictates a return to base
</span>

I would tend to agree. I think the problem with the Spits isnt the plane so much as the pilot mindset.

The majority of Spit drivers are seemingly stuck in the mentality of "Turn turn turn turn turn" and nothing else. All the conventional wisdom on the forums and in game is Spitfire = Turn Fighter, when in game and in reality the plane was much more well rounded than that.

When you take the Spit out of the Spit vs 109/190, and stick it with a REAL turn fighter, like the Zero or the Oscar, it becomes very apparent that the Spit aint all that and a bag of chips!

I have run the supposedly "cr@p" Ki-43 against Spit Mk5's, and consistantly cleaned their clock, because instead of using their speed advantage, the Spits immediately go for a turn fight, and with a 3 SECOND difference in turn speeds, the Spit comes out on the short end of the stick.

Dont get me wrong, I think the Spit is an excellent plane, I just dont think that folks bother to spend the time to fly them to maximize their potential. Its too easy to jump in and throw the plane around, and I think that has contributed to a negative sterotype that the plane doesnt deserve.

I do notice though, that a lot of the old time vets tend to be B&Z, while more recent additons to the pilot ranks go for the T&B route. I think that also has a lot to do with the sterotypes about the planes as well.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

"Have you ever noticed? Anybody going slower than you is an idiot, and anyone going faster than you is a moron."
--George Carlin