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View Full Version : Need advise pls - 109G6's vs P51C's



canadiantrout
11-19-2009, 11:12 AM
Hey guys. I am going to be finding myself in a high alt fight very soon.

I have FW190A5's, A6's, and 109G6's to intercept high alt bombers. Their friendlies to escort the bombers are P38J's, P51C's and P47D's maybe some Spits.

I'm flying AXIS. This is not my "usual" theatre of operations. Any advise for this pilot?

Choctaw111
11-19-2009, 11:27 AM
The P38J will not do too well at high alt, say above 20k, but the P47 will do very well.
What model Spits are we talking about?
As far as Axis, the 109G6 and the Antons you have will do well up there also, but not as good as the Jug in my opinion.

canadiantrout
11-19-2009, 11:44 AM
I notice you didn't mention the Mustangs. Those are the dudes I'm most worried about. Right or wrong?

Thanks about the Jugs, will keep my eyes open.

Don't know what model of Spits either..

Any other opinions?

Bremspropeller
11-19-2009, 12:22 PM
Drag them into slow-speed fights.

Preferrably rolling-scissors.

Gibbage1
11-19-2009, 01:12 PM
I flew around a lot at 30,000ft. Here are some tips.

P-38 starts gasping for air around 25,000, but so does the 190 and 109. Above that, the P-47 will diminate, with the P-51 putting no a good show. If your axis, try to get the alt before enguaging. Trying to climb to them once your in range means you already lost. Also, if you ever move your stick to its full locks, you lost the fight. Be very soft on the stick. Sudden movements will send you down fast. Being that high is a balancing.

IL2 does a very poor job of high alt modeling still, but it does work. Just expect everything to go infanitly slower then down low.

ytareh
11-19-2009, 01:19 PM
P38J is a killer at high alt and will masscre all the axis planes mentioned...

Gibbage1
11-19-2009, 01:34 PM
Not so sure about that. 109's are meat, yes, but the roll rate of the 190 will keep it out of your gunsights. Plus with his firepower, any glancing shot will take you out, considering how big of a target the P-38 is. I find them a considerable challange up high when I fly P-38's.

ytareh
11-19-2009, 01:57 PM
You P38J high alt haters should download IL2 Compare ...its just faster than all those axis planes (AND climbs faster too!)As longs as its flown by a good Boom n Zoom-er /E Fighter the writings on the wall

canadiantrout
11-19-2009, 02:16 PM
Just what i feared... conflicting reports of my impending doom. Fantastic. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/clap.gif

Well if it turns out not to be as bad as ytareh is predicting I'll hold my own as long as I stay sharp.

However, if it's going to be a massacre and the "writtings on the wall" what are my options in handling this?

(Retreating until the Dora's start rolling off the line is NOT an option here... just sayin')

Choctaw111
11-19-2009, 03:09 PM
Originally posted by ytareh:
P38J is a killer at high alt and will masscre all the axis planes mentioned...

If you have actually flown this plane at high alt, then good on you for getting it to fly well, but I find that this model just doesn't perform. I need the L to do well up there.

Canadiantrout, regardless of these conflicting reports, it all really depends on how good your opponents are.
Even a mediocre pilot will dominate with a Jug above 25K so watch out for them.

JG52Uther
11-19-2009, 03:14 PM
Well if you want to be historical,get high,avoid the escorts,dive in a high speed frontal attack on the B17's,and keep going,all the way back to base!
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Choctaw111
11-19-2009, 03:16 PM
Originally posted by JG52Uther:
Well if you want to be historical,get high,avoid the escorts,dive in a high speed frontal attack on the B17's,and keep going,all the way back to base!
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Now there is some good advice for surviving a mission.
What kind of server are you flying on?

JG52Uther
11-19-2009, 03:20 PM
I was once the top surviving Luftwaffe pilot in Air Force War.
Had the least amount of kills though! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Buzzsaw-
11-19-2009, 04:00 PM
Salute

The point for the Germans is to kill bombers, not enemy fighters.

Do what the Germans did historically. All you need is alt on the bombers, place yourself in position to do a headon, and load up with heavy weapons. A 190 with four 20mm's or a 109 with 30mm nose cannon can take down a bomber in one pass.

Once you have made your pass, dive away with the FW's, if a enemy fighter follows, use your rollrate to lose them. At high speed, a Mustang will lose its wings if it trys to follow you through maneuvers. More dangerous are the P-47's, they can follow you through pretty much anything at high speed, so you get them below 5000 meters, and then change the fight into a slower speed turnfight, the 190's can outturn a P-47 in most circumstances.

For the 109's, it is a little more difficult, dive away, if a fighter follows, slow down the fight, and change it to a turnfight, climbing turns at slow speeds, you can beat any of the Allied fighters doing that. Trouble is, if they decide to keep their speed and distance, they can wait for you to run and get on you again. But that's the dilemma the interceptors faced.

The real problem for an early 1944 bomber campaign is when the escorts get on the German interceptors BEFORE they can close with the bombers. That was the way the Americans won the real campaign, and if the interceptors are placed in such a way as to prevent the Germans getting close, then it will be tough.

Remember though, the USAAF Escorts more often than not were outnumbered by the German interceptors, there may have been more Interceptors in total up on a given day, but the Germans would focus on a single combat box of B-17's and mass their forces.

ytareh
11-19-2009, 04:39 PM
Of course offline at high alt the AI do even better against human opposition...Youd need a 262 to beat a Spit VB at 10km +alt

TS_Sancho
11-19-2009, 04:57 PM
Buzzsaw is right, to kill the bombers I would opt for up the FW190A6 and set your convergence to 400 meters. Start your intercept of the bombers about 10 kilometers in front and a few hundred meters above. Keep your speed around 500 kph, make sure to keep the ball centered and open fire when the bombers are maybe 2/3 the diameter of the reticule (I'm assuming they are fortresses or liberators).

Fly through the formation in a gentle descending curve and if they have escort keep going. You'll probably only get 1 pass as the bombers are almost as fast as the FW up high and it will take a few minutes to get back out in front or even catch them in a tail chase, by which time the P51's and P47's will have had their way with you.

If you are looking to tussle with the escorts at altitude the BF109 is your only choice and the only card in its deck is a marginally better sustained turn, up high the allied planes will match you for climb and are much faster.

Fortunately the great equalizer is individual skill so with a little luck the enemy pilots will suck, the rabid AI on the bombers wont PK you from half a mile out and you may even get a big fat enemy aircraft destroyed message on your screen.

TS_Sancho
11-19-2009, 05:06 PM
Originally posted by ytareh:
You P38J high alt haters should download IL2 Compare ...its just faster than all those axis planes (AND climbs faster too!)As longs as its flown by a good Boom n Zoom-er /E Fighter the writings on the wall

The only thing more embarrasing than getting shot down by a burning plane is getting shot down by a P38J.

canadiantrout
11-19-2009, 05:56 PM
Originally posted by TS_Sancho:
Fortunately the great equalizer is individual skill so with a little luck the enemy pilots will suck, the rabid AI on the bombers wont PK you from half a mile out and you may even get a big fat enemy aircraft destroyed message on your screen.

That is a fine plan by me. I almost lost sight of the plan. Which is to knock down bombers not dance with escorts. In light of that would anyone recommend up-gunning to some wing pods and hope i get 2 pass at the 17's (at best)???

JG52Uther
11-20-2009, 03:53 AM
See,I was right! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif
By all means load up with gunpods,but avoid the escorts at all costs!

FlatSpinMan
11-20-2009, 04:59 AM
If you can, take the Mk108 in the nose instead of the gunpods. It has no impact on performance. Of course it's a bit harder to hit with but the gunpods mean you are meat if the "Indianer" catch you.

BillSwagger
11-20-2009, 05:15 AM
The mustang has the advantage, no doubt, but my experience with Mustangs above 20k, in a 109 isn't all that gloomy.
The key is staying high and fast with out sacrificing altitude to make a shot.
It could be my imagination, but above 20k i believe the 109 is faster in turns so long as you keep the turn flat or use a shallow climb. I have a tendency to dive as i turn, which only allows the Mustang to follow because both planes gain in energy based on the slope.
Losing altitude is also bad for the 109 because the margin between the two planes while turning narrows, and eventually goes in favor of the P-51 as you get lower. Not that it makes tighter turns, but it just holds its energy better and can regain a lot of altitude in the zoom, where up high there is less difference between the two planes zoom ability.

When i fly German planes, i usually scout for bombers and avoid engaging unless there are no bombers around. Really all you need to do is fly in high swoop on the bombers and keep going. If the bombers are at 20k, attack from 30k, i always use a 10k altitude advantage which is where most escort/support fighters are lingering anyway.