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View Full Version : Ju-88 Pilot Kill issue and bullet modelling



TinyTim
10-08-2009, 05:03 PM
Anyone who has been flying Ju-88 for some time will probably agree with me that pilot kills seem much more often in this plane compared to other bombers. I'd like to share my view on the problem.

In my experience it's almost only possible to kill the pilot (in any plane) with light machineguns if the bullet pierces through one of the windows and continues to the pilot. You can shoot into the thin metal foil just below the window (where the pilots torso should be), but the bullet modelling stops the bullet path in the instant it hits the metal. It is, however, still possible to get a kill this way, but its very unlikely.

Now, Ju-88 is one of the rare if not the only bomber in this sim in which you can "see" the pilot (it's head) from rear hemisphere, (i.e. it has windows behind the pilot, facing backwards) especially from rear-high, due to its unique "egg-ish" crew compartment. Sooner or later one of the bullets will find its way through the back windows and hit the pilot:

http://www.shrani.si/f/25/Ld/K3wrPgz/ju88.jpg

In other bombers this is much unlikely to happen, since the pilot is "shielded" (although in an unarmoured plane), with metal (or wooden) plating, which causes a virtual bullet to stop.

This is what I'm talking about, this pilot wasn't PK-ed:

http://www.shrani.si/f/3N/JI/1c4nsYs6/pk.jpg

This also explains why when pumping hundreds (and lately thousands) of bullets into an unarmoured bomber fuselage from dead 6 you can't kill those crewmembers that you cannot "see" - which usually leaves entire crew save the top gunner virtually invulnerable from 6 oclock attacks, although they sit in an explosive and gasoline laden flying tincan.

What would really improve damage modelling in my opinion would be improved bullet modelling, which wouldn't stop in the instant they hit any part of the plane save windows. Of course a lot of light MG bullets bounced off the metal skin, but under favourable conditions (like one on upper screenshot), at least some of them should get through.

I don't really believe anything will at the end change in this direction, but maybe it can provide an interesting insight.

P.S.: Above thinking was based on experience with light machineguns only. These are easier for tests since they don't produce shrapnels.

Lt_Letum
10-08-2009, 05:19 PM
Team D have said on the banana forum that they
plan to make gunners easier to kill.

DKoor
10-08-2009, 05:36 PM
Good thread http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif .

TinyTim
10-08-2009, 05:37 PM
Another example:

1. Gunner alive:
http://www.shrani.si/f/40/C8/1nnkCYAG/alive.jpg

2. Gunner dead:
http://www.shrani.si/f/u/2C/2o2i82Th/dead.jpg

stalkervision
10-08-2009, 06:42 PM
http://www.shrani.si/f/u/2C/2o2i82Th/dead.jpg


it's only a flesh wound.. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PLEWHRbIMxU

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

ytareh
10-08-2009, 07:36 PM
Head on with the 12mg Hurricane2b into the He111 cockpit is probably the easiest pilot kill in the game so Ju88 aint unique here

horseback
10-08-2009, 07:43 PM
All of the above is absolutely true.

How many times have we shredded the cockpit or gunner's postions only to have the robo gunner or the ai fighter pop our engine with a single burst the microsecond we enter his cone of fire at the appropriate range for his ranking?

If Team Daidalos fixes that and that alone, I'd pay cash money to get that patch. It would improve offline play immensely.

cheers

horseback

M_Gunz
10-08-2009, 08:29 PM
They would have to make it so bullets/shells can penetrate a 3D DM object without having to destroy the whole thing.
That would require more DM data, wedging the files open to jam it in, etc, which can be a real pain to debug later.

Treetop64
10-08-2009, 08:35 PM
You should try a test firing into the back of the Betties, where the rear gunner resides. He's almost invincible. And he has a big gun.

horseback
10-08-2009, 08:54 PM
Originally posted by M_Gunz:
They would have to make it so bullets/shells can penetrate a 3D DM object without having to destroy the whole thing.
That would require more DM data, wedging the files open to jam it in, etc, which can be a real pain to debug later. Why can't they treat the cockpit or gunner's compartment like an inline engine? Or better yet, the skinning around the cockpit/crew areas should be treated as being the same as the windows/canopy glass.

Shots from these angles penetrate and kill the crew, shots from those angles are deflected by armor or airframe components. Requiring multiple headshots to kill a pilot/gunner with even LMG rounds is ludicrous, and always has been.

Gunz, I know that you're making sense, but this is a major failure in the offline game, and for me at least is as much an emotional as a technical issue.

cheers

horseback

JtD
10-08-2009, 11:10 PM
Bullets penetrate already. For instance, you can't PK a FW driver from 12 o'clock through the windshield with an LMG. It's an armored windshield. You can, however, kill him by hitting slightly below the windshield.

It depends on the projectile if it penetrates or does not. AP round mostly will.

That said, there's certainly room for improvement.

A6M2-21 pilot killed through aluminium with an LMG (using AP rounds):
http://mitglied.lycos.de/jaytdee/screens/deadpilot.jpg

DKoor
10-09-2009, 12:21 AM
Originally posted by Treetop64:
You should try a test firing into the back of the Betties, where the rear gunner resides. He's almost invincible. And he has a big gun. Don't know why exactly but this really made me laugh http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif .