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View Full Version : some cool feature of AI



Michcich_303
06-29-2005, 08:23 AM
I`ve been flying against the AI today (I`m usually flying online) and discovered that it os now barrel-rolling when being shot at from short distance. This is great, exactly the defensive strategy that was used by pilots in WWII.

neil_1821
06-29-2005, 10:31 AM
That is very true, i often come accross this with the zeros but the problem is they keep doing it over and over so you eventually get used to it. The zeros will barrell roll and the dive inverted, when it looks like there going to hit the sea the pull up abruplty and you can see the white trail left because they are near stalling, i myself have fallen for the trap of following them and not being able to pull out of the dive or stall my plane at too low altitude to recover. Now i will fire and reduce throttle so i can have a wider view on them, always seems to work for me http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

bogusheadbox
06-29-2005, 10:52 AM
I don't think its an exclusive feature for PF. Would be good to confirm.

I am only playing FB + Ace expansion (computer not good enough for PF)and currently on a Russion fighter piot dynamic campaigne.

I find it pretty common to see the enemy plane barrell roll on my first volley of bullets. Then they go inverted. Fly to the floor and when just about to hit, they pull a steep curve out and start to climb again.

Its exactly as said above. You even see the white trail from the plane almost stalling.

Its quite a common tactic and not very effective now that i am used to it.

I beleive the AI does it to try and make you overtake the target.

All i do now (as long as i am not too close when they barrell roll. Is go zero throttle when they roll. Invert with them, set view angle to wide. Drop flaps and pull a quick left right and you should end up on their six when they pull up for altitude.

I do sometimes still overshoot though.

Michcich_303
06-29-2005, 03:45 PM
Well, reducing speed while AI is barell-rolling does not seem an effective strategy - you then lose your energy advantage over enemy and become easy prey. You may get away with that offline, but online you would get immediately punished for that. It`s better to climb, do half-barell and dive onto enemy. You can then BnZ him, while still maintaining high energy.

AerialTarget
06-29-2005, 05:55 PM
Yes, that's called a yo-yo. It's a very effective manuever that conserves your energy while at the same time keeping you behind your enemy. It's my favorite maneuver - at least, it was until the Aces Expansion Pack came out and I abandoned my Me-109 for the P-38 Lightning.

EagleDeer
06-30-2005, 02:20 AM
In Samurai, it relates how the ace repeatedly used the manuever for over 30 miniutes to escape from 20+ fighters-all whilst on his first sortie after sustaining serious injuries and blindness in one eye. Unvelievable, but true-also recounted by Stephen Coonts in his collection of aviation stories.

SeaFireLIV
06-30-2005, 02:38 AM
With 4.01 a 109 did that with me. I must have been overconfident because he was way ahead of me and started barrell rolling and to my shock I actually overshot him suddenly putting me on the defensive.

I also got tricked into chasing a zero low in my Corsair, he turned up - I didn`t. Splash!

Remember guys we have probably many more flying hours than the average real life pilot, so tactics are going to seem very familiar. Personally, I think AI tactics are excellent, no more mid-air braking.

My one and only complaint about AI is that once hit, even a little, they tend to crash to the ground - except for FWs...

new-fherathras
06-30-2005, 03:17 AM
wow neil, your sig is way to big.

NAFP_supah
06-30-2005, 04:29 AM
Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:
I think AI tactics are excellent, no more mid-air braking.

Oh so you consider:
- Crashing into each other during simple manouvers
- Crashing into the player during simple manouvers
- Crashing into the player trying to shoulder shoot
- Forgetting to pull out of rediculously shallow dives
- Chasing 1 airplane with 8 AI buddies while ignoring the 7 attacking their carrier

As very good tactics? AI is ruining this game for me ATM.

SeaFireLIV
06-30-2005, 06:19 AM
Originally posted by NAFP_supah:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:
I think AI tactics are excellent, no more mid-air braking.

Oh so you consider:
- Crashing into each other during simple manouvers

[This very rarely happens. I`ve maybe seen 2 -3 times in my whole Eastern Front carreer and none yet in my Pacific career. And aircraft did collide in reality. What? You want NO AI aircraft to EVER accidentally crash?]


- Crashing into the player during simple manouvers

[Not happened to me at all! And I fly alot. Could it be your own way of flying? Of course you`ll deny it, it must be the AI`s fault, right?]

- Crashing into the player trying to shoulder shoot

[Rubbish. The AI will almost every time move out of your way and stop firing if you get in his line. This again sounds like you`re doing too wild manouevers, and of course, blaming the AI for your lack of SA. Also use the Command "Open formation" although I never use it since AI never crashes into me, they used to in previous patches.]

- Forgetting to pull out of rediculously shallow dives

[There is some truth to this, but I`ve mentioned it. It seems to happen mostly if they get hit or the ground is too undulating. More experinced AI seem better at pulling out as long as they are not hit]


- Chasing 1 airplane with 8 AI buddies while ignoring the 7 attacking their carrier




As very good tactics? AI is ruining this game for me ATM.

[yawn]

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>


No. It`s you blaming the AI for your own manouevering mistakes - even a Human can`t avoid hitting you if you make erratic turns or push infront of a friendly AI while its attacking an enemy.

And use the tools available to you like the Command interface rather than becoming fixated that everything wrong is the AI. You need to have better situational awareness methinks.

Because you`ll [I]never get a perfect AI and I`ve seen how it was since the early days, have you? Compared the original and it`s subsequent incarnations the AI`s the best it`s ever been!

Capt._Tenneal
06-30-2005, 08:03 AM
Forgetting to pull out of rediculously shallow dives

It's "target fixation" which happened IRL. The JU-88 even had automatic "levelers" to pull the aircraft out of it's dives when it was divebombing so the crew doesn't fly the plane into the ground.

In the game, it doesn't happen all the time too. I've seen it happen to the AI in the heat of battle when they forget to pull up and crash. It seems reasonable .

My peeve is that the AI still tends to "bring everything down to the deck" thereby causing more of this to happen. Even if combat starts at 5000m, you can bet within a minute or two everyone's zipping and dodging at 100m or less.

neil_1821
06-30-2005, 09:26 AM
sig much smaller now, finally figered out how to do it http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Nimits
06-30-2005, 02:35 PM
Target fixation and "manuever kills" are a fact of real aerial combat; the last one I know of occurred during the Gulf War, when a Mirage F1 tried to intercept an unarmed EF-111 and lost (and on a sidenote, while I do not rejoice in the death of any man, I have always been curious how that pilot would have explained to his superiors losing his fighter to an unarmed American EW plane had he survived . . .), and World War II is replete with stories of pilots flying appearantly undamged planes into the ground for various reasons. It would be just as unrealistic if it neevr happened than if it happened too much.

NonWonderDog
06-30-2005, 02:59 PM
The AI has alway barrel rolled, but they used to slow down unbelievably fast when they did it. This seems to have been fixed.

The strange thing is when the AI starts doing barrel rolls in a 75 degree dive. I don't know why they do it; it seems to defeat the entire purpose of diving. They also invariably end up in an unrecoverable spin when they do it, too. Maybe higher-level AI doesn't do this as much, but the Average AI does it all the time.

B0lter
06-30-2005, 03:20 PM
Overall, I think the AI in PF is pretty good.

I remember thinking that it was pretty lame as I closed in on an unsuspecting zero from its low six, but just as I was entering guns range I cleared my own tail, old habit from WW2OL, and there was his buddy at half a click behind me... Rope-a-dope anyone? That's prety good for AI. Better than some human players I've flown with, in fact.

True, they do like to go low, but it's for a reason. They are constantly trying to scrape you off their tails by doing low altitude split-S' that require very good stick and rudder skills not to stall out of. I find these much harder to stick with than a simple barrel-roll.

You can alway roll with them with rudder to increase you roll rate, or you can high yo-yo to keep behind their 3-9 line. The problem with the yo-yo, though, is that the range can increase beyond your engine's ability to close. Carefull timing is crucial to stay in the fight.

The one thing I don't like about the AI is that I've caught entire flights on a landing pattern and vulched them mercilesly. You'd figure after the first one goes down in flames the gears and flaps would be coming up, and the power to WEP, but no X[

gbleck
06-30-2005, 03:55 PM
I have put an almost endless stream of zeros into the sea with manuver kill after manuver kill with the new fm. You get on his 6 and he just dives out and blam into the sea. Highest setting on ai. Don't know. Maybe it could make the pull out before and now it can't. Odd as it's quite consistent for me.

NAFP_supah
06-30-2005, 05:31 PM
Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by NAFP_supah:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:
I think AI tactics are excellent, no more mid-air braking.

Oh so you consider:
- Crashing into each other during simple manouvers

[This very rarely happens. I`ve maybe seen 2 -3 times in my whole Eastern Front carreer and none yet in my Pacific career. And aircraft did collide in reality. What? You want NO AI aircraft to EVER accidentally crash?]


- Crashing into the player during simple manouvers

[Not happened to me at all! And I fly alot. Could it be your own way of flying? Of course you`ll deny it, it must be the AI`s fault, right?]

- Crashing into the player trying to shoulder shoot

[Rubbish. The AI will almost every time move out of your way and stop firing if you get in his line. This again sounds like you`re doing too wild manouevers, and of course, blaming the AI for your lack of SA. Also use the Command "Open formation" although I never use it since AI never crashes into me, they used to in previous patches.]

- Forgetting to pull out of rediculously shallow dives

[There is some truth to this, but I`ve mentioned it. It seems to happen mostly if they get hit or the ground is too undulating. More experinced AI seem better at pulling out as long as they are not hit]


- Chasing 1 airplane with 8 AI buddies while ignoring the 7 attacking their carrier




As very good tactics? AI is ruining this game for me ATM.

[yawn]

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>


No. It`s you blaming the AI for your own manouevering mistakes - even a Human can`t avoid hitting you if you make erratic turns or push infront of a friendly AI while its attacking an enemy.

And use the tools available to you like the Command interface rather than becoming fixated that everything wrong is the AI. You need to have better situational awareness methinks.

Because you`ll [I]never get a perfect AI and I`ve seen how it was since the early days, have you? Compared the original and it`s subsequent incarnations the AI`s the best it`s ever been! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

seriously kid,

I dont make erratic moves, I know better after a couple of years of this AI. I just nose up and * bang* two of my wingmen fly into each other. A small and simple manouvre. Same thing happens when I tell them via the radio menu to attack AAA. Two of them fly into each other. Not pulling out of dives is something new since 4.0. If you never been shouldershot and crashed into you havent flown many offline campaign missions http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif especially planes that arent in your flight are a danger in this. the flying into the ground isnt target fixation. It used to happen in cruis e too on certain maps. Plains just CFIT'ted it into mountain ranges. Poor collision detection and prevention. I spent enough time in the airforce to know target fixation, it needs a target nearby to be fixated upon. The AI is as **** as its ever been and the patch just made it worse. No more cheating maybe, but as much stupidity.

SeaFireLIV
06-30-2005, 06:02 PM
Kiddo,

I knew you`d maintain that it couldn`t possibly be you at fault and you have. The only point where you are possibly right is in AI navigating undulating terrain. That`s it. The rest is your style of flying and lack of watching about you and blaming the AI when you are in error.

But the AI can never win; when it cheated in previous patches it was ****, now it uses proper rules, it`s still ****.

Let`s just face it, unless a specific AI is made to fly to your specific style you`ll never be happy. There`s no more point arguing on this as you`ll not be convinced. We will forever agree to disagree.

The AI is better and continues to improve all the time.

Cadet_Bobo
06-30-2005, 06:29 PM
I notice the AI go into a serious horizontal scissor move when the Barrel roll and Dive don't work. They can slow WAY down, I could to, but I hate to just give up a bunch of speed in the middle of a fight. I'd rather keep the speed and go 'round for another pass
A question about AI speed. They seem to be able to go very fast in normal cruise situations. I trim the plane nicely, reduce all possible drag, throttle up and they still race away into the distance. What are they doing that I'm not?? Why are they faster?

Bobo (just a bobo)

B0lter
06-30-2005, 06:47 PM
Are you talking anemy aircraft? If so, some of them will outperform your crate. Knowing which and how is a big plus http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

I don't know if this has changed, but back in the vanilla IL-2 days, Maddox himself said that the wingmen FM had "some loving", when asked why players couldn't stay with their flight without autopilot.

If that's still the case, that may explain why I still see wingies do some stuff that makes me wonder. Like watching them climb and accelerate away from you after telling them to attack fighters, even when you're at full throttle.

Bewildering, yes. Not a show-stopper though http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

NAFP_supah
07-01-2005, 01:53 AM
Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:
Kiddo,

I knew you`d maintain that it couldn`t possibly be you at fault and you have. The only point where you are possibly right is in AI navigating undulating terrain. That`s it. The rest is your style of flying and lack of watching about you and blaming the AI when you are in error.

But the AI can never win; when it cheated in previous patches it was ****, now it uses proper rules, it`s still ****.

Let`s just face it, unless a specific AI is made to fly to your specific style you`ll never be happy. There`s no more point arguing on this as you`ll not be convinced. We will forever agree to disagree.

The AI is better and continues to improve all the time.

Seriously, I can't help if AI crashes into each other when I initiate a climb, with enemies about, now can I? The AI should be able to handle this on there own.

AI not pulling out of dives in combat without being hit, what would you have me do? Tell them to pull up via the radio menu? O wait I cant.

Ever fly the singapore KNIL buffalo campaign? Your chasing a Ki-43 and suddenly you get a face full of hurricane. Happens a lot. What would you have me tell these planes that arent even in my flight?

On the other side, IJA, side in a Ki-43 campaign I and my flight of 8 meet a group of wellingtons and buffalo's. I order my second group to attack the bombers and go for the fighters. I start to climb to meet the Buffalo's and my number 2 flies into me from my dead 6. Again, something the AI SHOULD be able to avoid. There is no "Dont fly into me *******" radio command.

msalama
07-01-2005, 02:17 AM
Well, s**t happens to humans and AI both. And IRL it happened even more.

These are dangerous beasts we're talking about, y'know.