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View Full Version : Breda SAFAT on MC205 and G55



Bankoletti
10-27-2010, 04:09 PM
I've been playing with these two Italian fighters lately and I got a weird feeling - it seems to me that Breda SAFAT is much more powerful on the Fiat compared to Macchi. This feeling is not based only on one engagement, but a lot of them. When using SAFAT with G55 targets simply go down sooner compared to 205, it's almost like having two M2 .50cals. It's maybe hard to notice since both planes have cannons, but when you exhaust them (and that does not happen soon, since you have something like 250 rounds per gun), you can still bite with the nose MGs.

Any thoughts?

jengizbengiz
10-27-2010, 05:49 PM
Originally posted by Bankoletti:
I've been playing with these two Italian fighters lately and I got a weird feeling - it seems to me that Breda SAFAT is much more powerful on the Fiat compared to Macchi. This feeling is not based only on one engagement, but a lot of them. When using SAFAT with G55 targets simply go down sooner compared to 205, it's almost like having two M2 .50cals. It's maybe hard to notice since both planes have cannons, but when you exhaust them (and that does not happen soon, since you have something like 250 rounds per gun), you can still bite with the nose MGs.

Any thoughts?

lol, do you actually realize, that the G55 is a mod-airplaine http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif ? That might give you a little hint in solving that strange 'mystery'.

Bankoletti
10-27-2010, 05:58 PM
Originally posted by jengizbengiz:
lol, do you actually realize, that the G55 is a mod-airplaine http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif ? That might give you a little hint in solving that strange 'mystery'.

lol, do you actually realize that Fiat G.55 came into the sim with the last official patch, v4.09? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif

Well, it's true it was only an AI plane, but I modded the plane myself and only added a cockpit without touching anything else.

WTE_Galway
10-27-2010, 06:16 PM
If its AI they probably gave it better gun stats to help it stay competitive.

Ask TD in the bugs thread over at 1C.

VW-IceFire
10-27-2010, 09:43 PM
Originally posted by Bankoletti:
I've been playing with these two Italian fighters lately and I got a weird feeling - it seems to me that Breda SAFAT is much more powerful on the Fiat compared to Macchi. This feeling is not based only on one engagement, but a lot of them. When using SAFAT with G55 targets simply go down sooner compared to 205, it's almost like having two M2 .50cals. It's maybe hard to notice since both planes have cannons, but when you exhaust them (and that does not happen soon, since you have something like 250 rounds per gun), you can still bite with the nose MGs.

Any thoughts?
Can't remember but does our G.55 have only two machine guns or four? I haven't really played with that plane but I think I remember a few different armament options.

BillSwagger
10-27-2010, 10:53 PM
They probably use the same gun with different convergence, ie box vs point convergence
I noticed the G55 meets more at a point, where the Macchi's is more of a spread. That could be the difference.

Bill

JG52Karaya-X
10-28-2010, 02:55 AM
You're not going crazy, TD has introduced a new Breda SAFAT 12,7mm model with 4.09.

Cr.42, G.50, C.202 and C.205 use the same Breda model

G-55, Re.2000 and SM.79 use a different model

Dont ask me why, it's just the way it is currently...

JG53Frankyboy
10-28-2010, 04:44 AM
that would explain why the SM79 reargunner is so a killer http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif - in comparison when you shooting with the FIAT and Macchi fighters http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Metatron_123
10-28-2010, 06:22 AM
I hope they didn't overdo it, after all the breda safat was a sub-par weapon.

JG52Karaya-X
10-28-2010, 06:56 AM
I havent had a closer look at the new Breda SAFAT but the one used by the C.200/202/205, etc. is very weak for a couple of reasons:

- its HE shell has a tiny explosive radius (5cm instead of 15cm for HE shells of all other HMGs)

- it has a 1:1 AP/HE belting whereas (AFAIK) the standard belting was a 1:3 AP/HE loading

But there are so many smaller or larger shortcomings withing IL-2s weapon modelling:

Many aircraft share weapons of other nations as stand-ins, for example the A6M Zero instead of using its domestic 20mm uses the very same MG FF/M that is found on German fighters, the 13mms on the late A6M and IAR81a also are not genuine models but MG131s. The light MG found on the Zeros is also not the correct japanese version but simply the MG15 found on He111, Ju88, etc.. and with wrong belting as well, an AP only

JG52Karaya-X
10-28-2010, 06:58 AM
Btw sorry for drifting away from the Breda SAFAT but am I right that a representative belting for .50CAL MGs on US fighters would be:

AP-API-API-API-API

!?

Bankoletti
10-28-2010, 08:13 AM
Aaaah, ok. Thanks for claring this up Karaya. I was really wondering what the heck is going on!


Originally posted by VW-IceFire:
Can't remember but does our G.55 have only two machine guns or four? I haven't really played with that plane but I think I remember a few different armament options.

The real G.55 did have an early version with 4 machineguns (two above and two at the sides of the engine) and one cannon firing through a spinner, but I've never seen anything like this in IL-2 1946. Perhaps you saw a mod somewhere? "Our" version is the standard one with two machineguns in the cowling and three cannons (one between cilinder banks and two in the wings).


Originally posted by Metatron_123:
I hope they didn't overdo it, after all the breda safat was a sub-par weapon.

They certainly didn't, they are still weaker than M2 .50cal or the uber UBS, but they are closer to Japanese Ho-103 now (which historically used the same ammunition!).

I've read somewhere that the "old" SAFAT in IL-2 1946 is about 5 times less effective than M2 .50 cal. Although a sub-par weapon, it's hard to believe it was historically that weak.

Karaya, didn't the crews mix up their own preffered ammo belting in case of M2? I don't know the definite answer, but at least in japanese theatre of war they indeed used a lot of API as far as I know.

BillSwagger
10-28-2010, 02:28 PM
I've read somewhere that the "old" SAFAT in IL-2 1946 is about 5 times less effective than M2 .50 cal. Although a sub-par weapon, it's hard to believe it was historically that weak.

Italian Aces might agree.
I think in game it depends on what your shooting and where.
Its probably the most under used aircraft in the game for that reason.

Bankoletti
11-01-2010, 06:03 PM
Originally posted by BillSwagger:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I've read somewhere that the "old" SAFAT in IL-2 1946 is about 5 times less effective than M2 .50 cal. Although a sub-par weapon, it's hard to believe it was historically that weak.

Italian Aces might agree.
I think in game it depends on what your shooting and where.
Its probably the most under used aircraft in the game for that reason. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yup, it sure is. Mc202 is completely ignored when 109E is available besides it on online dogfight servers.

But then, I've read estimates somewhere on the internet that one heavy machinegun was very genereally speaking worth about 3 light machineguns, which sounds kind of reasonable (8 gun Hurricane was considered to have a lot more firepower than a Fiat for example, despite Fiat having MGs in cowling). Now if SAFAT is indeed 5 (five, that's a lot) times weaker than .50 cal and UBS, and if we believe that the simulation of these weapons in IL-2 is historically accurate, then that this means it should even be weaker than a light machinegun - which is nothing short of unbelieveable.

However, thorough tests should be done or data obtained from the code and compared to historical documents before proceeding with the debate, all I know is that I've sometimes discharged entire ammosupply into an enemy without downing him - with an accuracy of, say, 15% (that's about 100 hits). Now with Fiat G.55 story is somewhat different, SAFAT hits considerably harder, yet it's still noticeably weaker than .50cals or UBS. This new SAFAT appears to be spot on in my opinion. But then again, I'm no expert.

Romanator21
11-01-2010, 07:38 PM
Compare the Mc.200 to a Ki-43 1a. The Safats are obviously not weaker than that.


Many aircraft share weapons of other nations as stand-ins, for example the A6M Zero instead of using its domestic 20mm uses the very same MG FF/M that is found on German fighters, the 13mms on the late A6M and IAR81a also are not genuine models but MG131s. The light MG found on the Zeros is also not the correct japanese version but simply the MG15 found on He111, Ju88, etc.. and with wrong belting as well, an AP only

As far as I recall, didn't the Germans give the Japanese a license to produce their guns?

The Romanians also had German weapons on their IAR-81s, but I never noticed that our in-game verion has 13mm guns. I thought it had 4x 8mm, and 2x 20 mm.

What I think is funny is how the Italian planes in Forgotten Battles used the Browning like P-40s. Apparently, this was accurate for Finnish aircraft (Fiat G.50) but that was changed sometime during Pacific Fighters. I think it would be a great option to change back and forth in the way that one can change the the cannon armament on the P-39D-2 and Bf-109 G-6 Late, etc.

Regarding belting for American aircraft - US aircraft modeled in the gamer were strictly those used on the Eastern Front (P-40, P-47, etc). They used a belting that the Soviets were provided with, but this hasn't changed since the inclusion of P-38s, P-51s, etc. P-39s for instance, did not have AP shells for the 30mm, only HE. American P-39s could have used AP shells. This is what led to some confusion years ago in which it was believed the Soviets used P-39s to attack tanks like IL-2s could.

Regarding DTs Safat - I'm not sure if it's any more powerful. Our impressions could be caused by placebo effect. It would be better to see the code directly. However, it is apparent that the new 13mm is different in that it doesn't belch clouds.