PDA

View Full Version : Ot: M1 Garand reload.



Vuco1
05-04-2005, 04:42 PM
As here, on this forum, there are a lot of people who know a lot about guns (and a lot of those who actually own a whole arsenal of WW2 guns) I think I going to get a very quick reply on this one.
Ok here it goes.
In "Brothers in Arms" game it is possible to reload the M1 Garand without firing the whole clip (and hearing the "pilng" sound). In previous WW2 shooters (like MoH and CoD) that was not possible.
On the other hand if I remember correctly in one of the "Band of Brothers" episodes the sergeant takes the privates M1 Garand, pulls the clip out and puts in just one bullet in, so the private could not shoot the German POW-s.
Now, it is clear that I don't have much knowledge on guns (newer fired nothing more then a air powered gun), but a rifle which clip cannot be taken out looks to me very unpractical.
And they described the M1 Garand as "the best battle implement ever devised".

So how the M1 operated?

3.JG51_BigBear
05-04-2005, 05:06 PM
My friend's M1 unloads itself http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif. He bought some poorly made Korean war era clips that kept trying to work their way out of the gun when two or three bullets were left.

It is possible to unload the M1 mid clip but you need to be very careful with your thumb. There is a release lever on the receiver that will cause the clip to pop out. You need to pull back the charging handle and then press the button.

3.JG51_BigBear
05-04-2005, 05:14 PM
Quick thought on the ability to reload mid-clip in BIA. I think you'd need to have total mastery over the weapon or be really stupid to do that in combat.

Arm_slinger
05-04-2005, 05:21 PM
Er i'll do my best to explain- i'm a brit who has never laid eyes on a garand but only read about them lol

Brothers in Arms has it wrong. In Band of brothers its right. I think it works by pulling back the the cocking lever, which in turn pulls back the action. Now it is either held back, or it locks its self back, one of the two. A little catch i believe (on the left of the weapon??) has to be operated that released the rounds and the clip which then allows you to remove the bullets by hand as you see in Band of brothers http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I think thats pretty much how it goes in a generalised way, i'm sure a trigger happy American will correct the errors i've madehttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

In my own opinion, i wouldn't of been happy with that mechanism myself. I'd much rather have a magazine i could easily remove to say mucking about with rounds like that, or a bolt action in which i can cycle the bolt to remove any rounds. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif


EDIT: balls reading back i've seen bear's reply http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Waldo.Pepper
05-04-2005, 05:40 PM
BIA is wrong.

From Infantry Weapons by Ian V Hogg page. 38

"Feed is from a magazine loaded by an eight round clip, and upon the last round being fired the clip is ejected and the action held open for reloading. This is probably the least desirable feature of the Garand, since single rounds cannot be loaded to 'top up' the magazine, it has to be a full clip or nothing. It also led to the tactical disadvantage in that the ejected clip made a most distinctive noise if it fell on hard ground, thus alerting the enemy to the fact that the rifleman no was holding an empty rifle.

stansdds
05-04-2005, 05:52 PM
I have an M1 Garand and I have shot it. No, you cannot top off a clip. No, you cannot put just one round in the clip and put it in the rifle. The Garand uses what is known as an en-bloc clip. The clip holds 8 rounds. Any fewer than 8 and the rounds just fall out.

The action of an empty M1 Garand is opened by pulling the operating rod to the rear. A spring loaded magazine follower in the rifle pops up and blocks the bolt in the open position. On a range you will want to engage the safety at this time, in combat you probably want to leave it in the fire position, time is of the essence in combat. The rifle is held with the left hand and with the right hand you insert the fully loaded clip. Keep the thumb pointed slightly up and facing towards the chamber because upon insertion the bolt may slam forward and chamber the first round. You don't want your thumb caught between the bolt and the chamber! Most Garands will hold the bolt open during the loading process, but some will let the bolt slam without warning.

Once the clip is inserted and it locks into place, retract the operating rod then release it and let the bolt strip the first round from the magazine and the rifle is ready to shoot. A partially emptied clip can be removed with some difficulty. Place the safety in the on position, retract the bolt to clear the chambered round from the chamber and press the clip release lever. This will let the clip pop up and the clip and loose rounds can be removed from the rifle.

There is no way to lock the bolt open on a partially empty clip and recharge it without completely removing the clip.

3.JG51_BigBear
05-04-2005, 06:09 PM
Keep the thumb pointed slightly up and facing towards the chamber because upon insertion the bolt may slam forward and chamber the first round.


Yeah nobody told me this one the first time I loaded the weapon. I was at an outdoor range last winter and the temperature was just below freezing. The bolt closed on my thumb, it hurt like crazy.

Bikewer
05-04-2005, 07:27 PM
I have heard tell of a tactic used by GIs in close combat situations; they would keep a few expended clips, and toss one after firing a couple of times, hoping to draw the enemy into revealing himself while the trooper would be reloading.

Dunno if you could actually hear the sound of a clip (as opposed to a magazine...hehe)hitting the ground in combat, but it might work in the right circumstance.

3.JG51_BigBear
05-04-2005, 07:36 PM
If you squeeze an empty m1 clip hard enough and then release it, it will make the tell tail ping noise as if it were ejected from the weapon. The enemy hears it, thinks you're out of ammo and need to reload so he can pop out and get you. You'd off course have four or five rounds left and if you were lucky you'd win.

Yog_Shoggoth
05-04-2005, 08:20 PM
Originally posted by Arm_slinger:
Er i'll do my best to explain- i'm a brit who has never laid eyes on a garand but only read about them lol

Brothers in Arms has it wrong. In Band of brothers its right. I think it works by pulling back the the cocking lever, which in turn pulls back the action. Now it is either held back, or it locks its self back, one of the two. A little catch i believe (on the left of the weapon??) has to be operated that released the rounds and the clip which then allows you to remove the bullets by hand as you see in Band of brothers http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I think thats pretty much how it goes in a generalised way, i'm sure a trigger happy American will correct the errors i've madehttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

In my own opinion, i wouldn't of been happy with that mechanism myself. I'd much rather have a magazine i could easily remove to say mucking about with rounds like that, or a bolt action in which i can cycle the bolt to remove any rounds. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif


EDIT: balls reading back i've seen bear's reply http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
This trigger happy American is pleased to inform the tea swilling Brit that he is completely and utterly right. I would also like to say that the Garrand is by far the best gun I have ever shot, barring posibly the tohmpson. I would also like to ask the swiller if he hase ever had mate? Because that stuff is superior to normal tea in every way, in the trigger happy American's point of veiw.

han freak solo
05-04-2005, 08:45 PM
If you can, buy that M1 Garand!! Sweetest shooting .30-06 firing weapon!

That gas-operated semi-auto action really smoothes out the kick. It kicks far less than my K-31 Schmidt-Rubin which fires a cartridge ballistically similar to the 7.62 NATO (.308 Winchester), which is slightly less powerful than the .30-06.

If I only had the cash to get a Garand for myself right now!! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/heart.gif

The Thompson is one sweet gun, too. There's a gun shop in my neck of the woods that allows renting and shooting full-auto weapons. I got to shoot the full-auto Thompson there. Awesome fun!! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

han freak solo
05-04-2005, 08:52 PM
You don't want your thumb caught between the bolt and the chamber! Most Garands will hold the bolt open during the loading process, but some will let the bolt slam without warning.

Vets call this "M1 Thumb". Argh! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

Separate issue:
Can't you load a single round into the chamber? Therefore, not needing the clip for a single round?

ElAurens
05-04-2005, 09:32 PM
I own, and have fired a Garand in competetion.

No it is not possible to "top off" a clip.

Yes it is possible to load less than 8 rounds. Not easy, but possible.

In the standard NRA service rifle competition you fire 10 rounds for score in each of 4 positions. In the Garand this is accomplished by loading 2 rounds in a clip, by crossing them in the shape of an "X", firing that clip, then loading a second fully loaded 8 round clip.

http://www.blitzpigs.com/photos/Garand1.jpg
A fullly loaded M1 Garand enbloc clip.

http://www.blitzpigs.com/photos/Garand2.jpg
A Garand clip loaded with 2 rounds.

There are also special clips available for competition that hold only 2 rounds.

The M1 Garand can also be loaded singly by simply placing a round in the chamber and closing the operating rod/bolt assembly.

Photos by me...

jarink
05-04-2005, 10:27 PM
Originally posted by Arm_slinger:
In my own opinion, i wouldn't of been happy with that mechanism myself. I'd much rather have a magazine i could easily remove to say mucking about with rounds like that, or a bolt action in which i can cycle the bolt to remove any rounds. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

That's why this trigger-happy American has always favored the M-14. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
For those non-rifle people out there, it is a slightly modified M-1 action (well, if you consider full auto capability 'slight') rechambered for 7.62 NATO with a 20-round detachable box magazine.

Full auto with these beasts is fun, but really inaccurate after the 2nd round. Semiauto I think they shoot only slightly worse than an M-1, mainly because of a little more muzzle whip since it's lighter up front than the Garand.

http://tri.army.mil/LC/cs/csi/m14rifle.jpg

reisen52
05-05-2005, 12:39 AM
Most M-14's came as a semi-automatic only with out the selector switch. The A1 was our equivalent of the current SAW.

I qualified as expert on both and could never really see a difference in accuracy between an M-1 & M-14. One of the big problems we had during the changeover was being sure we did not load an M-1 round into an M-14 magazine.

The A1 when used in the prone position with its bi-pod extended was pretty good on full auto when fired in short bursts but was not in the same league as the BAR which it was intended to replace.

Zeke

Aaron_GT
05-05-2005, 02:37 AM
I used to do WW2 reenactment and the M1 was, not unsurprisingly, the weapon most of us had (I had an M1903 personally). You can top off an M1 clip if you want to spend about 30 seconds very carefully releasing the clip to avoid the clip flying up and spraying unfired rounds all over the place and then about 2 minutes fitting all the rounds, plus the extra ones back in... So it is only worth it if you don't want to reveal your position and have plenty of time, otherwise just fire of the last round or two in the clip and be done with it.

The ping sound was sometimes a liability when doing private reenactments (like paintballing but with blanks) when doing house clearing. We did try the old trick of firing a round from a loaded M1 and throwing a used clip in the air so it clanged on the ground in the hope of making those playing Germans thinking the last round had been fired but it rarely worked. A helmet on a stick worked well, though.

Actually for house clearing work our two secret weapons were: a large piece of cast iron piping for knocking holes in walls between rooms, and a ladder, which I got to carry in one hand, having to carry a pistol in the other.

Aaron_GT
05-05-2005, 02:40 AM
Full auto with these beasts is fun, but really inaccurate after the 2nd round. Semiauto I think they shoot only slightly worse than an M-1, mainly because of a little more muzzle whip since it's lighter up front than the Garand.

The changes to the M1 mechanism to make it fire full auto are relatively minor, but the M14 incorporated some of changes in the M1 action from the M1E series that 'smoothed' some of the action out. The problem was the 7.62 NATO round was too much for full auto, hence the British also restricted their 7.62 SLRs to semi auto only too.

The advantage of the BAR for full auto is that it weighs 20 lbs, so recoil is less of an issue, and is fires from an open bolt for cooling.

IL2-chuter
05-05-2005, 02:48 AM
An enbloc clip (mine, anyway - all new) will hold as few as five rounds reasonably securely, six very securely - and I have tried with success to add a round or two to partially emptied, installed clips just to say I'd done it, but it was dastardly evil doin it (need three hands almost).

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

ploughman
05-05-2005, 04:13 AM
I had a conversation with a guy from Alabama about 15 years ago in which I stated that an M14 was basically an M1 Garand, he said I didn't know ****. Turns out I did. Thanks.

WTE_Sikshoota
05-05-2005, 04:23 AM
S` Guys

I've owned & used 3 M1 Garands. They are a beautiful firearm to use. The enbloc clip system is awkward to use initially but once mastered is very easy. The WWII method of loading was to pull the actuating lever/cocking handle fully rearward until it locked open. Place a fresh clip of 8 rounds onto the follower while using your lower palm edge (nearest your little finger) against the lever to prevent it from closing as soon as the clip releases the lever lock. Depress the clip fully downward until it locks in place at which time you remove your palm from the lever allowing it to rapidly move forward collecting a round on the way & finally chambering it into battery... viola!

Impractical to attempt to 'top up' the clip. As to a singular load of one rd, thats completely possible. Remove the clip (If present) & while the lever is locked rearward, place a single round in the breech. Release the lever & allow it to rapidly close. This then closes the bolt ensuring the extractor locks over the rim of the cartridge & you are in battery ready to fire.

So yes, it's possible to 'top up' but impractical.
You can remove either a fully/partially loaded clip (best to tip the rifle over to allow gravity to help clear when released).
You can load a singular round in the Garand (without the enbloc clip is easiest & is quite simple).

Sadly, I no longer have a Garand... the Australian Government outlawed all semi-automatic firearms in our country & mine got scrapped like so many others... **** them!!!
I still have many other WWII bolt actions fortunately...for now at least!

Cheers http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
Sik

ElAurens
05-05-2005, 05:34 AM
When the M14 was chosen over the FAL by the US Army one of the major reasons was that M1 Garand tooling already in place at the Springfield Arsenal could be readily adapted to manufacture the M14. This was totally false and cost the Department of Defense large sums of money to rectify, and eventually led to the closing of the government arsenal at Springfield.

They really should have chosen the FAL, which was a more modern design.

BSS_Goat
05-05-2005, 05:42 AM
Originally posted by WTE_Sikshoota:
Sadly, I no longer have a Garand... the Australian Government outlawed all semi-automatic firearms in our country & mine got scrapped like so many others... **** them!!!
I still have many other WWII bolt actions fortunately...for now at least!
Sik

Just curious, do they pay you for the guns or just take em and scrap em?

han freak solo
05-05-2005, 06:46 AM
Sadly, I no longer have a Garand... the Australian Government outlawed all semi-automatic firearms in our country & mine got scrapped like so many others... **** them!!!
I still have many other WWII bolt actions fortunately...for now at least!

Cheers http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
Sik

I'm crying for ya, man!! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/cry.gif

Vuco1
05-05-2005, 09:00 AM
Tanks guys!

Btw: Sik I feel sorry about your guns.

flyingbullseye
05-05-2005, 10:25 AM
Owning an M1 at the range the ping of the clip being ejected from the rifle makes for some people to take interest in the rifle. As for it being a liablity in combat all the vets I have talked to said unless the enemy was within a couple of feet you could not hear the little ping over the great volume of gunfire going off. Smoothest thing I have ever fired.

Asgeir_Strips
05-05-2005, 11:14 AM
Originally posted by Waldo.Pepper:
BIA is wrong.

From Infantry Weapons by Ian V Hogg page. 38

"Feed is from a magazine loaded by an eight round clip, and upon the last round being fired the clip is ejected and the action held open for reloading. This is probably the least desirable feature of the Garand, since single rounds cannot be loaded to 'top up' the magazine, it has to be a full clip or nothing. It also led to the tactical disadvantage in that the ejected clip made a most distinctive noise if it fell on hard ground, thus alerting the enemy to the fact that the rifleman no was holding an empty rifle.

The "ping" sound is way overrated, Colonel John Antal (Historical Advisor of BiA, commanded a battallion in desert storm i think, and owns several ww2 guns) has tested the gun, (you could see him firing a M1 Garand in a promo vid) and he said that the ping sound was very overrated, and for the most of the time, nobody heard it..

so its BS that the germans used the ping to an advantage against the americans and their M1.

Arm_slinger
05-05-2005, 11:15 AM
Originally posted by Yog_Shoggoth:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Arm_slinger:
Er i'll do my best to explain- i'm a brit who has never laid eyes on a garand but only read about them lol

Brothers in Arms has it wrong. In Band of brothers its right. I think it works by pulling back the the cocking lever, which in turn pulls back the action. Now it is either held back, or it locks its self back, one of the two. A little catch i believe (on the left of the weapon??) has to be operated that released the rounds and the clip which then allows you to remove the bullets by hand as you see in Band of brothers http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I think thats pretty much how it goes in a generalised way, i'm sure a trigger happy American will correct the errors i've madehttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

In my own opinion, i wouldn't of been happy with that mechanism myself. I'd much rather have a magazine i could easily remove to say mucking about with rounds like that, or a bolt action in which i can cycle the bolt to remove any rounds. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif


EDIT: balls reading back i've seen bear's reply http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
This trigger happy American is pleased to inform the tea swilling Brit that he is completely and utterly right. I would also like to say that the Garrand is by far the best gun I have ever shot, barring posibly the tohmpson. I would also like to ask the swiller if he hase ever had mate? Because that stuff is superior to normal tea in every way, in the trigger happy American's point of veiw. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

This tea swilling tommy has never drunk such an item, one will have to look for it from now on. Ok then enough of the toffness http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif, I've never heard of it saidly, but would gladly try it, i love tea and can drink it happily, unless its got too much milk, then it just tastes like nats piss.

jarink: the M-14 does look alot of fun to shoot http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif, it looks a beast as well, just like my much loved FAL L1A1 http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

One day i'll have to come state side and spend all the time i can on a range http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

The US should of used the FAL? I wish we Brits kept it, or modernised it over that peice of ****e lego gun called the SA-80 http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

jarink
05-05-2005, 05:15 PM
Originally posted by Arm_slinger:
One day i'll have to come state side and spend all the time i can on a range http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I haven't been to one in a few years, but despite the best efforts of some of the more liberal elements in our government, there are still quite a few "machine gun shoots" around. If you should go to one, bring lots of cash since you can often find gun owners that will let you fire a few rounds for the cost of the ammo. I fired more full-auto stuff that way than I ever did in 11 years in the US Army!

Absolute most fun gun to shoot has to be the MG-42. Weirdest one I fired? A .45 cal Reising SMG (used sparingly by the USMC at the beginning of the war). It was owned by a friend who also had a Japanese type 11 LMG which was fed by 5 round stripper clips in a hopper on the side and had an offset butt. Unfortunately, it was not in shooting condition..
http://www3.plala.or.jp/takihome/11LMG.JPG


The US should of used the FAL? I wish we Brits kept it, or modernised it over that peice of ****e lego gun called the SA-80 http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

What about the EM-2? That's one case where you guys should have literally 'stuck to your guns'.
It looks like the SA-80, but the action is completely different. The 7mm round (.280 cal) it fired was much better than the 5.56mm (.223) NATO round developed later.

http://world.guns.ru/assault/em2.jpg

3.JG51_BigBear
05-05-2005, 08:36 PM
Originally posted by Asgeir_Strips:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Waldo.Pepper:
BIA is wrong.

From Infantry Weapons by Ian V Hogg page. 38

"Feed is from a magazine loaded by an eight round clip, and upon the last round being fired the clip is ejected and the action held open for reloading. This is probably the least desirable feature of the Garand, since single rounds cannot be loaded to 'top up' the magazine, it has to be a full clip or nothing. It also led to the tactical disadvantage in that the ejected clip made a most distinctive noise if it fell on hard ground, thus alerting the enemy to the fact that the rifleman no was holding an empty rifle.

The "ping" sound is way overrated, Colonel John Antal (Historical Advisor of BiA, commanded a battallion in desert storm i think, and owns several ww2 guns) has tested the gun, (you could see him firing a M1 Garand in a promo vid) and he said that the ping sound was very overrated, and for the most of the time, nobody heard it..

so its BS that the germans used the ping to an advantage against the americans and their M1. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Overrated, probably yes, but definitely there. On the range, with ear plugs in, and other people firing weapons I could still hear the all too familiar "ping." I'm sure in a real combat situation with arti going off and hundreds of infantrymen firing rifles and machine guns with the rumble of tanks in the background the ping wouldn't be heard anymore than a couple feet from the weapon if at all. Although I bet in house to house fighting the ping could be heard fairly well.

Akwar
05-05-2005, 08:44 PM
.......

Athosd
05-05-2005, 10:15 PM
Originally posted by BSS_Goat:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by WTE_Sikshoota:
Sadly, I no longer have a Garand... the Australian Government outlawed all semi-automatic firearms in our country & mine got scrapped like so many others... **** them!!!
I still have many other WWII bolt actions fortunately...for now at least!
Sik

Just curious, do they pay you for the guns or just take em and scrap em? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It was a federal "buy back" scheme - funded via a one time levy on tax payers. The government determined what it considered fair value for each type and paid that for the weapons handed in. Treasury turned quite a profit out of the exercise (value of weapons surrendered was a fraction of that gained from the levy).

The ban also covers all pump action shotguns http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif.

han freak solo
05-05-2005, 10:47 PM
Originally posted by Athosd:
The ban also covers all pump action shotguns http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif.

But, but, but, but, pump guns aren't auto-loaders.

D@mn, I'm really, really feelin' for ya! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_redface.gif

Aaron_GT
05-06-2005, 03:58 AM
Although I bet in house to house fighting the ping could be heard fairly well.

That was what we found in our blank firing house clearing exercises as there are sometimes lulls in the firing. But one gun going 'ping' didn't really tempt any of the opposition to show their faces as they couldn't assume that the person was alone. I would imagine that in real combat the same rules applied.

Aaron_GT
05-06-2005, 04:02 AM
The M1 was originally intended to hold 10 rounds, but of .276 calibre.

The Enfield/Mauser P14 was similar in that it was designed for this calibre, but both were reworked for standard calibres.

The P14 gave rise to the M1917, the most common US rifle of WW1.

stansdds
05-06-2005, 04:54 AM
The M1 was originally intended to hold 10 rounds, but of .276 calibre.

Two Garands were initially submitted to the Army for testing, one in the experimental .276 caliber and the other in .30-06 Springfield. I believe it was General Douglas MacArthur who recommended the Army adopt the M1 Garand in .30-o6 caliber because the Army had warehouses jammed full of World War I surplus .30-06 ammunition. Doing so proved to be a wise move as that ammo was readily available when the U.S. went to war.

WereSnowleopard
05-07-2005, 10:22 AM
Depend how long soldiers fight on field with gunfires and grenades blow up as noise go on. How can anyone can hear "ping" with deafness ears from loud noise from battle and able to hear someone play with firearm "click" safety buttom? 30.06 is much louder than our 223. from M16. Maybe it is Urban legend. Let me type "urban legend ganard ping" in search engine...oh long list of it. Let me look for better one..looook like good one. Let me paste one: "An Enduring 'Urban Legend'

Everyone is familiar with "Urban Legends" which are fantasy stories that have been told and re-told so many times that some people believe them to be true. One such story has plagued the M1 Garand rifle since at least the time of its adoption in 1936. The "legend" involves the distinctive "pinging" noise that the empty M1 clip makes when it is ejected from the rifle. When the M1 was adopted, some of its critics claimed that this was a serious defect in the rifle because an enemy could hear the "ping" and would know that the rifle was empty. This "defect" of the M1 was the cause of many barracks "bull sessions" during World War II and a number of new recruits were undoubtedly frightened. Even today, the story is repeated in some books and articles. The "legend" involves U.S. soldiers who were killed because the enemy was alerted that their M1 rifle was empty due to the noise of the ejected clip. While there are multiple variations to the story, they basically involve an American GI with an empty Garand rifle who was killed when the wily Japanese (or in some stories, German)heard the sound of the ejected clip, charged cross the open ground and bayoneted (or shot) the hapless "dogface" while he fumbled with trying to reload his empty Garand. An interesting twist on this "legend" involves U.S. soldiers turning the tables on their devious enemies by dropping empty M1 clips on the ground to simulate the noise of an ejected clip and then mowing the enemy down when they foolishly revealed their positions to the Americans with supposedly empty rifles. A variation of the story stated that members of the U.S. Army First Special Service Force who were armed with M1941 Johnson Light Machine Guns would fire eight rounds from their weapons, throw empty M1 clips on the ground and then use the remaining 12 rounds in their magazines to kill the Germans who were fooled by this bit of clever deception. Such stories were not limited to World War II and variants of the "legend" are attributed to the Korean War when the Red Chinese troops heard the ejected M1 clips hitting the frozen ground and then killing the Americans with unloaded Garands.

Despite this "legend" being around for over six decades, there is not one documented instance where an American soldier was killed because of a noisy ejected M1 clip. Repeat, there is NO official confirmation of such an incident. If one thinks about it, such a scenario is actually quite absurd. Anyone who has been in combat will verify that a battlefield is a noisy and confusing place. To think that an enemy could hear the sound of an ejected clip several hundred (or even several dozen) yards away over the din of explosions and the racket of many weapons being fired is not logical. Even in the case of a close-range firefight, the scenario does not hold water. Even if an enemy could hear the sound of an ejected clip, he really couldn't do much in the brief period that it takes to reload an M1. A GI with a little practice and a lot of incentive can reload a Garand in just a few seconds. Even Carl Lewis couldn't sprint very far before he would be faced with an angry American with a fresh eight-round clip. Also, even if the GI with the empty Garand couldn't reload fast enough, there would be fellow squad members around with loaded BARs, carbines, M1919A4 machine guns, Thompson submachine guns and other weapons who would be only too happy to send the enemy to their fate in the hereafter.

Some British authors who never used the M1 rifle have published this "defect" of the M1 rifle in numerous books and articles. Even some American writers who should know better have repeated the same bit of fantasy. While the M1 rifle was not perfect, the fact that its ejected clip makes a "pinging" noise when it is ejected is not, by any means, a flaw. If anyone has even a single documented instance of an American being killed due to this reason, I would be quite interested in hearing about it. I recall as a kid in the late '50s and early 60's reading "war stories" in the men's magazines of the day while waiting for a haircut at the barber shop. At the time, I had never handled (let alone fired) a M1 rifle and such tales seemed reasonable. However, to anyone with a knowledge of military small arms and combat situations, it should be readily apparent that such stories clearly fall into the "Urban Legend" category. Hopefully, someday, this piece of fantasy will die a natural death. In the meantime,if you hear a variation of the story being repeated, politely ask what documentation they have to support it. You will likely hear that they "read it somewhere" or their brother-in-law's next door neighbor knew somebody in WWII who was killed because of a noisy M1 clip. That ain't documentation!" http://www.brucecanfield.com/cc-article.html

Before I sign off reply...I am deaf and used to shoot a lot with friends and I had noticed how much hearing my friends lost for short time from firing many rounds. Hey, 30.06 is real loud than 22 round even 223 round!

Regards
Snowleopard

Aaron_GT
05-07-2005, 02:32 PM
some stories, German)heard the sound of the ejected clip, charged cross the open ground and bayoneted (or shot) the hapless "dogface" while he fumbled with trying to reload his empty Garand.

I reenacted using an M1903. If I had a clip ready (rifle belt pocket unclipped and ready) it probably took about 5 seconds to reload. I was less practised with the M1, but I would guess it took me a couple of seconds longer. So basically you'd have to be very close to the enemy (and without much backup) for the ping to lead to your death. In the jungle, it wouldn't be impossible, if there was an enemy concealed very close to your position. But they'd have to be very quick. Of course dead men don't speak, so if an occurence did happen we might not have any evidence!



An interesting twist on this "legend" involves U.S. soldiers turning the tables on their devious enemies by dropping empty M1 clips on the ground to simulate the noise of an ejected clip and then mowing the enemy down when they foolishly revealed their positions to the Americans with supposedly empty rifles.

We tried that and it doesn't work because noone expects everyone to run out of ammunition at the same time!

han freak solo
05-08-2005, 02:18 PM
The "legend" involves the distinctive "pinging" noise that the empty M1 clip makes when it is ejected from the rifle. //// Hopefully, someday, this piece of fantasy will die a natural death.

Regards
Snowleopard

I think it will stay with us for a long time.

Just like the people that argue how certain old fighters fly. All the people with the actual experience of the aircraft or an M1 in battle are nearly all gone. All we have left is what is written and that is always up for interpretation. Specifications be d@mned, the human element and random chance ruin the best specifications.

Even the modern day guys that get the priviledge to shoot an M1 or fly a P-51, will not experience combat with it. So, in my opinion, we don't know what we are talking about.

But, it is entertaining to read all the stories and data to try to understand what it was like back in the day.

P.S. By the way, when I fired the M1 Garand it was in an indoor range. It was so loud in there, even with hearing protection, that I just didn't notice the "ping". I can't hear the action of my SKS indoors either. But, at an outdoors shooting range, I can hear that SKS "clacking" the bolt closed with every shot.

aussieosprey
05-08-2005, 09:36 PM
Originally posted by WTE_Sikshoota:
Sadly, I no longer have a Garand... the Australian Government outlawed all semi-automatic firearms in our country & mine got scrapped like so many others... **** them!!!
I still have many other WWII bolt actions fortunately...for now at least!
Sik

I would like to own a garand as well but under austrlian law any semi automatic and automatic weapon is banned. I do own an Lee Enfield smle .303. Also lever action rifles are not banned in australia, which is confusing as u can fire them very fast.

stansdds
05-09-2005, 04:09 AM
Even the modern day guys that get the priviledge to shoot an M1 or fly a P-51, will not experience combat with it. So, in my opinion, we don't know what we are talking about.

You have spoken the truth for sure!

adadaead
05-09-2005, 02:14 PM
Is that BIA game any good i've realy enjoed the new improved engine in the MOHPA (medal of honor PACIFIC ASSAULT) the rifle action in that game was unbelievabale, when you hide behind rock shoot, then he shoot right back, then next time you pop out you get in the stom... anyway how does it compare to MOHPA, should i buy it. I mean i don't like when i buy game that is already worst then the other one that i have. So if i'm MOHPA fan will i enjoy BIA.

flyingbullseye
05-09-2005, 11:57 PM
Originally posted by adadaead:
Is that BIA game any good i've realy enjoed the new improved engine in the MOHPA (medal of honor PACIFIC ASSAULT) the rifle action in that game was unbelievabale, when you hide behind rock shoot, then he shoot right back, then next time you pop out you get in the stom... anyway how does it compare to MOHPA, should i buy it. I mean i don't like when i buy game that is already worst then the other one that i have. So if i'm MOHPA fan will i enjoy BIA.

IMPO stick with MOHPA it has better graphics, smoother play and the weapons fire/accuracy is much more true to life. If you still want BIA I have a copy for PC will sell it to you cheap.

pcisbest
05-10-2005, 02:51 AM
Unless I missed a post that said otherwise, you guys all missed the point in this thread.

All of the talk about how you can't "top off" an M1 Garand is all well and good (not to mention well established), but it is not what the guy in BiA is doing.

Topping off means you put single rounds into the weapon to "top off" what you already have in there, like you can do on a K98 for instance, along with most other bolt action battle rifles.

Now, everyone was coming in here saying how "BiA has it wrong," and citing Hogg (I have that book too) and other sources, but the thing is is that in BiA you *aren't* topping the weapon off.

In BiA, you can remove the **entire clip**, then insert a fresh one, you aren't adding individual rounds to the already loaded clip. This was possible in real life, so BiA in fact, has it right.

If you doubt this, just consider what troops would do in training if they could not remove a charged clip: what would they fire off all their rounds just to empty the weapon? All weapons have the facility to remove the ammunition once loaded, and that is what the player can do in BiA.

Of course, doing this with a Garand in combat might not be the best idea, but it would be possible. The whole thing comes down to that everyone is saying BiA lets you "top off" the Garand, when in actuality they are letting you do more of a "tactical reload."

Aaron_GT
05-10-2005, 04:16 AM
This was possible in real life, so BiA in fact, has it right.

In BiA what happens to the rounds that were in the gun? In real life you'd end up with a clip and loose rounds in your pocket if you saved them and you'd have to recharge a clip and reinsert before you could reuse those rounds, which would take a reasonable amount of time.

Reenacting isn't combat, but I never saw anyone with an M1 remove a partly used clip and replace it with a full one. I used an M1903 and I don't think I ever topped up a clip either as all my ammunition was in 5 round stripper clips so I would have had to have pulled out rounds from the clips to feed in individually. The thing to do is to be part of a squad and use support from squadmates whilst reloading which takes very little time (around 5 seconds if prepared).