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Snoop_Baron
03-15-2004, 12:38 AM
I prepared this as a response to Raven's "My favorite Debate: Realism in FB.." thread. I'm posting this under a seperate topic because I think this is an important debate in the FB community and I wanted to make sure it wasn't missed.

With the belief that pictures speak louder than words I've put together a set of pictures that I believe bring clarity to this issue.

For the full picture follow this url:

http://www.snoopbaron.com/aircombat/RealismDebate.html

s!

:FI:Snoop Baron
http://www.endlager.net/fis/pix/banners/fis_banner_01.jpg

Snoop_Baron
03-15-2004, 12:38 AM
I prepared this as a response to Raven's "My favorite Debate: Realism in FB.." thread. I'm posting this under a seperate topic because I think this is an important debate in the FB community and I wanted to make sure it wasn't missed.

With the belief that pictures speak louder than words I've put together a set of pictures that I believe bring clarity to this issue.

For the full picture follow this url:

http://www.snoopbaron.com/aircombat/RealismDebate.html

s!

:FI:Snoop Baron
http://www.endlager.net/fis/pix/banners/fis_banner_01.jpg

AcesHigh_AVG
03-15-2004, 12:45 AM
If you have ever flown in a real plane you will see that it is often very difficult to see another aircraft when that aircraft is silouhetted against the ground, Il2 does a decent job of this. When a plane is against the sky it is very easy to pick up. Again Il2 does a great job of this. I think that no icons is still more real than having icons. The other point is the visibility issue in terms of field of view. It is true that in real life the field of view is much larger, however, if everyone is operating under the same constraints then the point becomes moot.

BM357_ZoD
03-15-2004, 12:49 AM
Also, it is full real, not perfect. Real pilots did not see icons.

All kneel to ZoD
http://bm357.com/

LuckyBoy1
03-15-2004, 12:53 AM
I'm a "real" pilot with over 1,800 real hours on real planes and I can tell you that the "full real" crowd simply wants to make this game a race between those who have Track IR and the extra system resources it takes to smoothly transition as you move your head and those who don't have the resources.

Added to this crowd are the wholly ignorant of real flying who spend thousands on PC's, but have never taken advantage of the $25.00 first flight lesson at their local, real airport.

Then the rest of 'em are the "I'm cool because I play this game that way" crowd. Play it however you like. Just don't try to pass yourself of as my "betters" while you're doing it!

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BM357_Raven
03-15-2004, 12:56 AM
That's cool Snoop.. I think it's a good presentation, for certain.

I should do the same thing with the 800x600 res., and 1024 and in FR and other settings to see what it shows. Maybe we can find some real footage of air battles and introduce them as well..But how would you tell the distance..? Or the zoom on the lens..? Hmmmm.

Are you committing to the argument that these pictures end the discussion or doe you think it might raise more questions?

Not to make a mountain out of a mole hill, but does movement play any part in seeing the objects? For example is a freeze frame really giving all the info, or should I throw together a few .mov's or avi's?

Do you think the plane below horizon is the only usuable data to the argument or could we supply a few more to further support your point?

At 90 degree at .5 meters no icons at 1024x768 the plane is nearly invisible. Could you do one more shot with the plane same position, everything at 800x600 please? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Regardless of whether we agree or not snoop. I think you're on the right track. S~

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TheGozr
03-15-2004, 12:58 AM
We can really say that both are great.. this kind of icons are ok with me.


in the other hand i've see many plane in real with icons.

Never seen those planes with a hudge real icons saying " I LOVE YOU or Mary Me josephine"

We see them a lots on the beaches or towns flying around http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gifhttp://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

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[This message was edited by TheGozr on Mon March 15 2004 at 12:12 AM.]

BM357_Raven
03-15-2004, 01:14 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
I'm a "real" pilot with over 1,800 real hours on real planes and I can tell you that the "full real" crowd simply wants to make this game a race between those who have Track IR and the extra system resources it takes to smoothly transition as you move your head and those who don't have the resources.

Added to this crowd are the wholly ignorant of real flying who spend thousands on PC's, but have never taken advantage of the $25.00 first flight lesson at their local, real airport.

Then the rest of 'em are the "I'm cool because I play this game that way" crowd. Play it however you like. Just don't try to pass yourself of as my "betters" while you're doing it!
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You're wrong about the FR community. I think there might be some people in FR who fit the bill of being arrogant.. But there are those types of people all over the world.

I have flown. I dont have 1800 hours. But the half hour flight is more like $49 and I dont think the first flight of 30 minutes tells you a lot about what it was like to be a fighter pilot.. Do you?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
and I can tell you that the "full real" crowd simply wants to make this game a race between those who have Track IR and the extra system resources
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Way off target. Simply not true of the brunt of the FR people.

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BM357_ZoD
03-15-2004, 01:18 AM
i agree with raven, he has a good point, if you dont believe take alook at our squad, i use the hatswitch with fb view plus. and enjoy th game in full real settings as much as everyone else and i havent put squat for money into my computer either. keep in mind this is a smiulation and in my opinion and in many others the "full real settings" are as close to real as we can make with current hardware and programmin technology available.

All kneel to ZoD
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HellToupee
03-15-2004, 01:27 AM
i prefer icons, i used to hate FR dont mind it so much now since i upped the gamma a bit, i used to be able to be at shooting distance on the tail of a bird and not be able to see him against the ground.

http://lamppost.mine.nu/ahclan/files/sigs/spitwhiners1.jpg

Bearcat99
03-15-2004, 01:37 AM
I just hate the arrows...and the map icons...although the one white one for your plane is IMO a good thing. The other night I spent 45 minutes in a locked pit no icon server just trying to find someone..in the meantime I got bounced twice.... and to top it all off I couldnt even watch the action afterwards.. fun but no fun... At least when you know where you are you can hook up with a wingy in a closed pit no icon server. Some say..just practice..... you will learn the lay of the land.... I am not familiar with every map. In time I will be but for now..Im not so that little white airplane is just what the doctor ordered. I can even do without icons altogether but the mini map path and externals.... I like them..

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WUAF_Badsight
03-15-2004, 01:46 AM
excellent webpage !!!

you forgot tho that when you jump foward to the gunsite view you are switching LOD

this LOD is a lot closer to RL detail



& THE POINT BEING ?

limited icons make up for low detail due to Monitor GPU limitations

BM357_ZoD
03-15-2004, 01:47 AM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Bearcat99:
I just hate the arrows...and the map icons...although the one white one for your plane is IMO a good thing. The other night I spent 45 minutes in a locked pit no icon server just trying to find someone..in the meantime I got bounced twice.... and to top it all off I couldnt even watch the action afterwards.. fun but no fun... At least when you know where you are you can hook up with a wingy in a closed pit no icon server. Some say..just practice..... you will learn the lay of the land.... I am not familiar with every map. In time I will be but for now..Im not so that little white airplane is just what the doctor ordered. I can even do without icons altogether but the mini map path and externals.... I like them..

all we are saying is that this is as real as the game gets in our opinion. i like the mini map path and externals and icons and i even use the wonder woman view when testing things but for me if i want the full real experience then full real settings are the way to go in my opinion.

All kneel to ZoD
http://bm357.com/

BM357_Raven
03-15-2004, 01:48 AM
pilots got lost all the time...I've gotten lost before. It happens. The minimap path does make it a lot easier though..

Wish I could win you over to this camp Bearcat99, but nonetheless, I still like hearing your opinions.. S~

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WUAF_Badsight
03-15-2004, 01:49 AM
http://www.imageshack.us/files1/107-0716_IMG2.jpg

WUAF_Badsight
03-15-2004, 02:00 AM
ok this comment caught my eye

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BM357_Raven:

but does movement play any part in seeing the objects? For example is a freeze frame really giving all the info <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


ppl who get on average 40 Fps or Over in the Pit are at a HUGH advantage over ppl who average 30 Fps or less

WHY ?

the more FPS the more smooth & the more clear dots show

movement shows dots

clear smooth movement shows dots better


locked in the pit with no icons is not the most realistic way the FB can be played

but its my pre-ferred way to play

WUAF_Badsight &lt;~~~~~~~ is a full real Dogfighter http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

TPCMike
03-15-2004, 02:05 AM
I'm a pilot with just over 1000 hours in RAF aircraft and fly what you guys call "full real".

I personally don't find it too "real" at all but I'll call it that for the sake of the debate.

I only fly with pit on, never bother with external views, I've never used padlock and prefer icons off. I use Track IR 2 with a 1600x1200 resolution too.

However, when I fly online I fly on whatever server I can have FUN on. Last night I flew on a server with padlock, externals labels etc. I still fly the way I like to fly and don't use the padlock and external features. It was a biplane only server and it was great fun. I don't care if other people are using padlock and turning their pit off. Does it really matter what other people do as long as we all enjoy it?

The flight sim community as a whole is the best of all in scaring away potential new flyers. These communities need more blood in order to be sustained and to hopefully start to grow again. I am constantly trying on my own forum of around 2000 gamers to get more people into flight sims but what they see on forums like this when the mighty get on their horse scares them away.

I don't see why we can't all just get on with what we enjoy and stop *****ing at others for using whatever settings they use.

I'm not directing this at anyone specific by the way, I generally tend to stay out of these debates but the pointlessness of them keeps winding me up.

Just go fly and enjoy it.

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WUAF_Badsight
03-15-2004, 02:06 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BM357_Raven:

I dont think the first flight of 30 minutes tells you a lot about what it was like to be a fighter pilot.. Do you? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

WAAAAY OFF TOPIC

we are discussing VISIBILITY


& yes the full real crowd seem to me to be MORE snobbish than the n00bie-Wonder-n00bie-Woman-n00bie-View-n00bie settings players

i dont mind any settings at all but Cockpit Off is for the AFJ squad & other n00bies

BM357_Raven
03-15-2004, 02:30 AM
oh..sorry. I thought... nm... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/53.gif

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pourshot
03-15-2004, 02:42 AM
I play full switch but mostly becuase thats the way most teams like to fly and to be honest it cost me a little in the fun stakes.

As I cant see very well anymore I like to have some kind of help be it a limited icon (even if it's just a dot) or at a minimum padlock becuase i often loose sight of planes that are right in front of me http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Anyway I like the team work that comes with squad games so in the end I suppose it's in balance, but it does cost me alot of kills.

And by the way why can I see a icon dot just fine but a plane that is a differant colour to the back ground eg a grey 109 on a grean back ground is almost invisible even at close range?

I sure would be happy if oleg programed a little more contrast in the models it would end alot of this debate.

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Wannabe-Pilot
03-15-2004, 02:47 AM
I know it's a bit of topic but what is Track IR? It seems like something that improves visibility in FB right? How does it work and where can I get it (is it free)? I use hatswitch and pan view and sometimes it gets a little confusing, Is this Track IR worth installing?

T_O_A_D
03-15-2004, 02:54 AM
Go here Track Ir (http://www.naturalpoint.com)
It imulates the mouse. it is tracking your head movment. so you can free up a hand and reprogram your hats to what ever you like if your stick supports that feature, with a profiler.

Also check out the links in my sig for some more info and a .ntrk and several ways to tweak it from myself and others.


there are alternative methods to do this aswell like newview ect. not sure on links search forum for more.

Good luck

As fpr the debate. Been here done that sop many times it's old. Fly it like you like it. I do no matter the room settings. Pit only for me, regardless of my dissadvantage in there.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Wannabe-Pilot:
I know it's a bit of topic but what is Track IR? It seems like something that improves visibility in FB right? How does it work and where can I get it (is it free)? I use hatswitch and pan view and sometimes it gets a little confusing, Is this Track IR worth installing?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Have you checked your Private Topics recently? (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums?a=ugtpc&s=400102)
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TPCMike
03-15-2004, 02:55 AM
http://www.tech-pc.co.uk/trackir-1.php

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Dnmy
03-15-2004, 02:56 AM
Very nice pics Snoop http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

They basically say it all.

michapma
03-15-2004, 03:06 AM
The movement does play a role but is not the only issue. I fly full real and use TrackIR, but my vid settings (1290x960@32 and ~4xAA) and vid card typically give me between 18 and 24 fps. The major drawback is that the response time of my older TFT is only about 45ms, so that I can probably only really profit from about 22fps anyway. I usually fly in the widest zoom (IIRC this is 90 deg?) when tracking, and I have a real problem with losing sight of bandits once they get into the far-dot range. Even when I pan to keep the dot still, it can simply "disappear" into terrain, the sea and even the sky straight above before I know that it literally does. My poor fps probably has something to do with this. It gets frustrating and I do complain. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-sad.gif I'm sure that if I played with my settings--gamma, no AA, more contrast of textures--I could get better visibility, but at the cost of something else. I consider the disappearance to be realistic and a part of the challenge, and try to work with it. Some pilots see better than others, as the real-life aces will testify.

Did anyone ever notice that the sun doesn't glint off of aircraft and their surfaces? In RL that one can be a dead giveaway or a total distractor.

I got bounced at least 4 times last night, and the problem was less one of visibility and more one of pilot skill/technique. I wasn't trying to be too serious, and the guy who was ate me for breakfast, lunch and dinner. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

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HellToupee
03-15-2004, 03:07 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bearcat99:
I just hate the arrows...and the map icons...although the one white one for your plane is IMO a good thing. The other night I spent 45 minutes in a locked pit no icon server just trying to find someone..in the meantime I got bounced twice.... and to top it all off I couldnt even watch the action afterwards.. fun but no fun... At least when you know where you are you can hook up with a wingy in a closed pit no icon server. Some say..just practice..... you will learn the lay of the land.... I am not familiar with every map. In time I will be but for now..Im not so that little white airplane is just what the doctor ordered. I can even do without icons altogether but the mini map path and externals.... I like them..

http://tuskegeeairmen.org/airmen/who.html_vflyer@comcast.net_ http://www.geocities.com/rt_bearcat
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yea navigation is a bit ahrd, theres no landmarks apart from rivers, maybee the odd town, hills all look the same and the only way to figure out what airport is , is if its shooting at you or not, if you know where your going its alrite, some planes you cant see the compass. I got bounched today just trying to look at my compass and see where i was at, i pulled a few turns and never saw him again :P

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michapma
03-15-2004, 03:11 AM
The lack of distinguishing features on the maps, and especially the airports, is a big minus. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif It's probably unreasonable to demand variations in foliage and ground and water textures on a map that reflect real-life distinctions, but the airports do seem rather indistinct. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

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Wannabe-Pilot
03-15-2004, 03:56 AM
Well Track IR looks great but just three words: WAY TOO EXPENSIVE. NO way I'm getting that (although I'd like to have it seems to add a lot) I spent my last dime on a flight stick and that too started to act funny so I fear I may yet buy another. Track IR is not for the likes of me. With packaging and various taxes and customs I'd probably pay up to 200$ for it. Out of my price range. Maybe when I get a job http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/88.gif

BM357_ZoD
03-15-2004, 03:58 AM
look at ravens sig thats track ir and no its not free its hardware

All kneel to ZoD
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T_O_A_D
03-15-2004, 04:03 AM
I navigate by roads and water ways. Just look at those then find the layout on the map and your good to go.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by michapma:
The lack of distinguishing features on the maps, and especially the airports, is a big minus. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif It's probably unreasonable to demand variations in foliage and ground and water textures on a map that reflect real-life distinctions, but the airports do seem rather indistinct. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

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But we are all that way: when we know a thing we have only scorn for other people who don't happen to know it. _- Mark Twain, Personal Recollections of Joan of Arc_<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

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2.11 drivers (http://home.mchsi.com/~131st-vfw/NaturalPoint_trackIR_2_11.exe)
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michapma
03-15-2004, 06:57 AM
I use whatever I can to navigate. But when the weather is blind... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

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SeaFireLIV
03-15-2004, 07:05 AM
Strange how this topic regurgitates again and again and again....

I guess we`ll have another one in a weeks time. Thankfully, I`ll be flying AEP!http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

SeaFireLIV...

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Soon... Very soon....

Huxley_S
03-15-2004, 07:21 AM
Snoop_Baron doesn't camoflage have something to do with it? You are trying to spot a green plane on a green background and it is difficult... exactly like it is supposed to be!

Try your test using a void skin on the other plane and see whether it is easier to spot.

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TooCooL34
03-15-2004, 07:53 AM
Pfff. Those screen shots are biased and your PC spec and monitor is not exactly same with mine.
Should we provide real photo example like yours?
Hopeless visiwhiners. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/crazy.gif

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100Mb IDC line, P4 2.8G server.
Full real but limited icon, minimap path and spdbar.
You can expect something, since I run the server myself. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

georgeo76
03-15-2004, 08:12 AM
I enjoy a variety of difficulty settings. This is a simulator, and it's good that it simulates SA, Stereoscopic vision, orientation,a and G-effects.

I look @ different difficulty settings on the servers in HL and I notice that while some difficulty settings are in contention, others are widely accepted. Limited stores, G-effects, overheating, and stalls are almost a given. So it would seem that many online players do enjoy a degree of 'realism'. IL2/FB appeals to a wide variety of tastes, that can only be a good thing.

Fiend's Wings (http://webpages.charter.net/Stick_Fiend)

The_Red_Spoon
03-15-2004, 08:27 AM
I wish more people would use limited range icons; no icons is the only aspect of FR that I won't consider.

bodaw
03-15-2004, 08:35 AM
Hey, TrackIr is simply mouse view with your head being your mouse. Confused! don't be there's a little infrared camera you put on top of your monitor, then you'd place a light reflective sticker somewhere on your head. The camera tracks the reflector, thus when you move your head, the camera senses, interpret it as mouse movement and shifts views seamlessly.

And no, it's not the see all, hear all magical device like some say. It's simply a mouse view on your head. I've used mouse view on the hat switch on the stick since FB came out, and it works just as well.

And to luckyboy1, there are alot of full real players without TR2 and they do just as well.

I myself prefer the limited icons, but no padlock. If anyone of you get a chance, try War Clouds server on Hyperlobby or UBI. War Clouds has the best icon system. It'll not give you an icon until you're real close, even then it'll only give you the plane type.No ugly blue or red labels, just black color.

HarryVoyager
03-15-2004, 08:40 AM
You can get the same effect as Track IR with a $10 USB trackball.

As for icons, having a big glowing neon sign floating over my head just doesn't seem believable to me. Having hard to see aircraft, and cockpits obstructing ones vision does. To be honest, it was the dependance most games had on ID icons that was one of the things that drove me away from flight sims in the first place.

I cut my teeth on SWotL and Acces of the Pacific. They didn't have icons, they didn't have padlock, shoot SWotL didn't even have 3D models, but they did just fine without them, and I see no reason to start flying with them on, just because some people can't seem to figure out how to fly without a computer telling them were everything is.

Harry Voyager

If you're friendly and you know it, wag your wings.
If you're friendly and you know it, wag your wings.
If you're friendly and you know it don't be afraid to show it,
if you're friendly and you know it wag your wings.

WarGod5475
03-15-2004, 08:45 AM
Looks like somethings wrong with your machine.

I have never experianced somthing like this.

infact i have seen the exact opisite.

meaning I see the plane in normal view its just a
dot but when i zoom in i can barley see it.

i would check your hardware cause something is wrong and i would stay off full real servers until you can get your computer fixed.

Well at least i can see why some people complain. now i wonder if its an issue with a certain card or if its a driver problem.

this will be interesting to find out what is wrong.

LilHorse
03-15-2004, 08:53 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LuckyBoy1:
I'm a "real" pilot with over 1,800 real hours on real planes and I can tell you that the "full real" crowd simply wants to make this game a race between those who have Track IR and the extra system resources it takes to smoothly transition as you move your head and those who don't have the resources.

Added to this crowd are the wholly ignorant of real flying who spend thousands on PC's, but have never taken advantage of the $25.00 first flight lesson at their local, real airport.

Then the rest of 'em are the "I'm cool because I play this game that way" crowd. Play it however you like. Just don't try to pass yourself of as my "betters" while you're doing it!
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I swear I'm gonna read the rest of this thread but I had to respond to this right away. By today's standards my computer is at best run-of-the-mill if not pretty well outdated (1gig mpu, 512ram and an old NVidia GeForce2 card at 32 bit). I do not have TIR. My big "extra system resources" were bumping from 256 ram to 512 and buying a headset for comms. About a whopping $50 additional investment. I have a standard sized monitor as well, 17" I think.

I fly full real. I have ZERO problems in IDing planes. At least insofar as being able to tell from a good distance my guys from the other guys and who's chasing who. When I get in a little closer I will zoom into the gunsight and at that point be able to tell what types of planes are involved.

Is it as real as reality? Of course not. There will always be serious limitations to what is seen on a computer screen. But there is more to full real (or "full difficulty" haveit your way) than just how the planes appear at a distance. There is the aspect of how not having icons plays out in terms of tactics and how accurately that simulates RL. In real life you don't have big honkin' neon signs hanging over everybody's planes. If you did there'd be no element of surprise which, as we all know by now, was responsible for about 80% of the A2A victories.

I prefer to fly this sim as close to real as can be, however flawed that is. I really don't care what other settings ppl fly. And those that fly medium and don't have a complex about it shouldn't care what the FR crowd thinks. The majority of servers online are medium. So, you're all getting what you want.
For guys like me all I can say is, thank goodness for servers like Blazing Magnums and for VEF.

TooCooL34
03-15-2004, 08:59 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WarGod5475:
Well at least i can see why some people complain. now i wonder if its an issue with a certain card or if its a driver problem.

this will be interesting to find out what is wrong.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Not that interesting.
Short on money, short on brain. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

-----------------

=815=TooCooL34 in =815=Squadron

-= 8 1 5 =- FB Dedi Server is coming soon. (with AEP Dedicated Server)
100Mb IDC line, P4 2.8G server.
Full real but limited icon, minimap path and spdbar.
You can expect something, since I run the server myself. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Heavy_Weather
03-15-2004, 09:04 AM
nice post Snoopdog http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

"The wise man is often the man who plays dumb."

TooCooL34
03-15-2004, 09:07 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LilHorse:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LuckyBoy1:
I'm a "real" pilot with over 1,800 real hours on real planes and I can tell you that the "full real" crowd simply wants to make this game a race between those who have Track IR and the extra system resources it takes to smoothly transition as you move your head and those who don't have the resources.

Added to this crowd are the wholly ignorant of real flying who spend thousands on PC's, but have never taken advantage of the $25.00 first flight lesson at their local, real airport.

Then the rest of 'em are the "I'm cool because I play this game that way" crowd. Play it however you like. Just don't try to pass yourself of as my "betters" while you're doing it!
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I swear I'm gonna read the rest of this thread but I had to respond to this right away. By today's standards my computer is at best run-of-the-mill if not pretty well outdated (1gig mpu, 512ram and an old NVidia GeForce2 card at 32 bit). I do not have TIR. My big "extra system resources" were bumping from 256 ram to 512 and buying a headset for comms. About a whopping $50 additional investment. I have a standard sized monitor as well, 17" I think.

I fly full real. I have ZERO problems in IDing planes. At least insofar as being able to tell from a good distance my guys from the other guys and who's chasing who. When I get in a little closer I will zoom into the gunsight and at that point be able to tell what types of planes are involved.

Is it as real as reality? Of course not. There will always be serious limitations to what is seen on a computer screen. But there is more to full real (or "full difficulty" haveit your way) than just how the planes appear at a distance. There is the aspect of how not having icons plays out in terms of tactics and how accurately that simulates RL. In real life you don't have big honkin' neon signs hanging over everybody's planes. If you did there'd be no element of surprise which, as we all know by now, was responsible for about 80% of the A2A victories.

I prefer to fly this sim as close to real as can be, however flawed that is. I really don't care what other settings ppl fly. And those that fly medium and don't have a complex about it shouldn't care what the FR crowd thinks. The majority of servers online are medium. So, you're all getting what you want.
For guys like me all I can say is, thank goodness for servers like Blazing Magnums and for VEF.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Well said. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
But they don't listen and will not invest any money cause whining is easier way for them. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/52.gif

-----------------

=815=TooCooL34 in =815=Squadron

-= 8 1 5 =- FB Dedi Server is coming soon. (with AEP Dedicated Server)
100Mb IDC line, P4 2.8G server.
Full real but limited icon, minimap path and spdbar.
You can expect something, since I run the server myself. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

LilHorse
03-15-2004, 09:47 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TooCooL34:

But they don't listen and will not invest any money cause whining is easier way for them. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't think they have to invest any more money than they already have. Like I said my rig is nothing to crow about, I didn't spend big bucks on anything. It doesn't take money, it just takes the interest, desire and time to invest in it. If you like a challenge, if you want it to be hard then FR is for you. And it's not all hard. Again as I said with no icons, clouds, knowing where you are in relation to the sun vis-a-vis the other guy and altitude you can actually pull off the bounce.

Same goes for navigation. At first it seems nearly impossible to figure out where you are or where you're supposed to be going. But put in the time and after a while it becomes quite natural.

But if somebody doesn't want to be bothered with all that and just wants to jump in and have a good time, then I can't blame them. For that person FR wouldn't be any fun at all. But it should be said that those of us who like FR not only find it challenging we actually do find it to be FUN.

Manos1
03-15-2004, 10:10 AM
Well, I like flying (simulations).

I fly some VEF (full real) (1-1,5 hours per day) when my eyes feel good.

If my eyes feel tired after a full days work in front of the computer, I chose an easier server with icons on.

If I want to train tactics and dogfighting, I chose the easiest server (including icons on the map).

Because I love the quality of graphics of this simulation I also like to fly now and then in servers with externals on. Especially after being shot down, it is completely waste not being able to watch the action (ongoing tank/ sea battle or dogfight).

True, my eyes are not very good but I fixed most trouble by buying a 25" LCD monitor (effect of size + lack of vertical scan).

If I could have one wish, it would be to have the possibility of an option with externals on but without friendly/foe external lock.

There is some 17,000 people flying IL2FB(judging by the number of views of the ACE thread in the first 3 days).
There is a server for everbody!

~S~

PS. Thanks for the nice examples Snoopy!

http://www.hellenic-sqn.gr/pilotsforum/templates/subSilver/images/logo_phpBB.gif http://www.hellenic-sqn.gr/temp/4th_FG2_new1.gif
Hellenic-SQN (http://www.hellenic-sqn.gr)

ucanfly
03-15-2004, 10:11 AM
I am trying to learn full real and I must say it can be frustrating at times, but I notice that my ability to pick out planes has been greatly enhanced the more I do it. My biggest step forward occurred when I mapped various zoom settings (toggle, and incremental zoom) on my mouse (which I use for panning). Before I was always in wide view and would have the bogies disappear on me much more often. YOu have to use the zoom IMO.

To each his own. Anyone not wanting full real has plenty of servers to pick from , whereas those of us that enjoy or will enjoy full real have very few choices it seems.

Snow_Wolf_
03-15-2004, 10:27 AM
Now for all you people who is in Canada and want to feel what it like being a fighter pilot (without joining the airforce) come down to Toronto/Ontario. Down near Nigara they got this place call Fighter Combat Canada.
here is the link

http://www.incredible-adventures.com/fighter_combat_canada.html

http://aa.1asphost.com/seafury/mononoke_p2.jpg

TooCooL34
03-15-2004, 10:43 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LilHorse:
I don't think they have to invest any more money than they already have. Like I said my rig is nothing to crow about, I didn't spend big bucks on anything. It doesn't take money, it just takes the interest, desire and time to invest in it. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
In real, you don't need to invest time or interest.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>If you like a challenge, if you want it to be hard then FR is for you. And it's not all hard. Again as I said with no icons, clouds, knowing where you are in relation to the sun vis-a-vis the other guy and altitude you can actually pull off the bounce.

Same goes for navigation. At first it seems nearly impossible to figure out where you are or where you're supposed to be going. But put in the time and after a while it becomes quite natural. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
In real, it's already natural so you don't have to put some time. In FB, those navigation marks are too poor compared to RL.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
But if somebody doesn't want to be bothered with all that and just wants to jump in and have a good time, then I can't blame them. For that person FR wouldn't be any fun at all. But it should be said that those of us who like FR not only find it challenging we actually do find it to be FUN.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I did mastered that FR setting before.
But in objective view, that challenge is just increasing difficulty and you're enjoying because it's more difficult and you're get proficient with it. It has nothing relevent with real. It's not opinion. It's just objective fact so I'm right.

Surprised? I just mimicked Dnmy. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

-----------------

=815=TooCooL34 in =815=Squadron

-= 8 1 5 =- FB Dedi Server is coming soon. (with AEP Dedicated Server)
100Mb IDC line, P4 2.8G server.
Full real but limited icon, minimap path and spdbar.
You can expect something, since I run the server myself. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Falcon_41
03-15-2004, 10:43 AM
Gah!

Too much to read, but good points all.

My short answer ...

I've spent many years flying and I have around 12500 hours in anything from Tomahawks to DC-8's. Even with a copilot and ATC constantly helping you, it is HARD to find other a/c up there. It IS!

ATC: "... traffic is twelve o'clock, five miles, an L10-11 at 5000 ... "

Pilot: "... see it?"

Copilot: " ... nope ... "

ATC: "Traffic is now one o'clock, one mile ... "

Pilot: "... roj, still lookin' ... "

Copilot: " ... he said one o'clock?"

Pilot: "uh-huh, see it?

ATC: " ... traffic no factor"

Copilot: "hmph, where we gonna eat tonight?"

BUT!

Even with haze and dirty windscreens and fuzzy contacts, and not enough sleep, reflections on glass and bad lighting ...

things are harder to see in IL-2 than they are in real life.

Real life, real life. The Real type.

Therefore, even though my purist nature cringes a wee bit ...

to offset the difficulties in a computer setting, I find that tightly adjusted icons make up for much of the reality lost.

Sure, have fun without icons. Just remember, it's not that hard in REAL LIFE.

:FI:Falcon

http://hometown.aol.com/ifalkon/myhomepage/fis_banner_09%20newstyle.gif

VF-2_John_Banks
03-15-2004, 11:40 AM
-double post-

VF-2_John_Banks
03-15-2004, 11:40 AM
FB is not about TrackIRs but about the challanges and limitations a real fighter pilot had to face during WW2.

Flying without a cockpit for example doesn't represent the FOV a pilot has, cause he can see through his own eyes and not through a monitor. I hate people, who try to defend their "no cockpit only" attitude. There is a serious limitation of your forward view in tail draggers, where the nose of the plane and the cockpit block the view almost completely and you have to s-turn during taxi.

As this is not a sim for jets and there were no head up dispalys in WW2, icons are complete crap. Low resolutions or not, a no icon game simulates the conditions much better than an icon game. How realistic can it be to see the enemy at 5+ KM with a blue box and some letters saying "here i am, come and kill me"? There were occasions where two enemy planes were flying in close formation, cause both pilots failed to ID eachother. I guess most of you visited flight shows in the past. On the last one, i tried to visually follow a P-51 on it's base leg and lost it after several hundred meters against the blue sky! That damn thing was so tiny, that even a human eye (better resolution you know) has trouble to follow it. And now imagine you are flying at 400 mph and your head is rotating to check the instruments and the enemy position. It was and still is very very hard to visually ID and to succesfully track a plane in the sky with your eyes only. Only full "real" (in terms of the game settings) let you face equal or similar challenges and problems. And that has nothing to do with TrackIR. At several hundred meters distance, a plane is not more but a dot, especially a small fighter plane. Just read some pilot accounts of WW2. I recommend books like "To Fly and Fight" by Bud Anderson, "Baa Baa Black Sheep" by Pappy Boyington and even some modern ones of the Vietnam era. The experiences described there are almost the same, i had in FR games. Reports about dogfights often sound like reports of great A2A battles in FR servers.
Nobody, with more than 2 brain cells, can really be that naive and think, that non FR settings are closer to the real thing, that FR settings, by eliminating these very challenges, air combat is all about and what pilots had to deal with. And it's not a matter of hardware! Deactivate the icons and your video card has less stuff to render. Only FR lets you navigate like a real pilot, either by the game map or a printed map, where you can mark your targets with a pen. FB is the first flight simulation, where you really have to navigate by map in a FR game. Naviagting itself is a real challange and many pilots failed the mission objectives cause they never found the targets or their bomber formation. Things like that only happen in FR. If that is not realistic, than this is the wrong genre for you!

[This message was edited by VF-2_John_Banks on Mon March 15 2004 at 10:49 AM.]

VF-2_John_Banks
03-15-2004, 11:40 AM
-double post-

VF-2_John_Banks
03-15-2004, 11:40 AM
-double post-

IV-JG51_L.Z
03-15-2004, 11:42 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by michapma:
...I'm sure that if I played with my settings...I could get better visibility, but at the cost of something else.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You only got "bounced" one time where you should have seen me, and I believe you have already addressed that problem in your post. I'd like to tell you more, but that would be "aiding the enemy" http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif


There is certainly a major "inequity" in Full Real when players have different hardware. That's a real shame, and I think some kind of limited icons would go a long way towards equalizing the situation. But like Comrade Chap said, in RL some pilots had much better visual acuity than others, and it was the factor that determined the outcome of many engagements before they started.

As to you Chap, the next time you're running a "non serious" DF, turn on the icons http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif It's hard for me to make a distinction between "serious" and "not serious". All I know how to do is manuever for the kill and avoid getting shot. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

http://us.f2.yahoofs.com/bc/40537f2d_af64/bc/FB_Images/LZ_JG51_Sig.jpg?BC.e4UABk0zvrsja

BlackHawkLeader
03-15-2004, 12:15 PM
I was going to post a thread about what a waste of time it was even starting this thread let alone anybody posting an opinion here.

Oleg and team must sit back and have a good laugh some times watching you lot at each others throats!

I do he! he!

Nothing changes though people still host whatever setting they like, despite any pointless arguement here.

TooCooL34
03-15-2004, 12:24 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BlackHawkLeader:
I was going to post a thread about what a waste of time it was even starting this thread let alone anybody posting an opinion here.

Oleg and team must sit back and have a good laugh some times watching you lot at each others throats!

I do he! he!

Nothing changes though people still host whatever setting they like, despite any pointless arguement here.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
But you can't help posting it when someone argue Kathy Bates is real beauty, compared to Catherine Zeta Jones.
Is it matter of preference? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
I know what you mean, but I can't help it. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/35.gif

-----------------

=815=TooCooL34 in =815=Squadron

-= 8 1 5 =- FB Dedi Server is coming soon. (with AEP Dedicated Server)
100Mb IDC line, P4 2.8G server.
Full real but limited icon, minimap path and spdbar.
You can expect something, since I run the server myself. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

TacticalSkirmsh
03-15-2004, 12:53 PM
Firstly, Snoop Baron has caused a lot of mischief http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

If the issue is realism, as I posted in another recent thread then there are, in my opinion, much more important items to address before worrying about gameplay settings.

Assuming one is interested in simulating a WW-II flight combat experience, within the limitations of a computer game (though this be a great one!), then the following need to be first addressed (in not particular order):

(a) Is the map, mission objectives and plane sets realistic (i.e., either historically-based or at least pausible)?

(b) Are there only two teams (because WW-II only had two factions)?

(c) Are the individuals of each team participating TOGETHER to fulfill the mission objectiive?

(d) Are the individuals (whether squad mates, online buddies/strangers, or even AI mates)working together for the great good? Are they employing team tactics? Protecting their bombers? Etc. . .

There is a ton of realistic fun if these above-mentioned items are being fulfilled in whatever game settings you find yourself playing.

Now add realism settings like full CEM, limited fuel & ammo, no enemy map icons and it gets even more realistic and fun.

Now we are at the finer issues of icons, padlock, speedbar and even externals. I like icons (limited or otherwise), and enjoy using padlock and speedbar (especially since I cannot easily convert imperial and metric on the fly).

With regards to externals, while I realize some very skilled virtual pilots likes externals, I enjoy the immersion of always sitting in the seat looking at those wonderful cockpits. Plus the limited view really adds a whole lot to dogfights.

Regards,
TactS!

‚"There is a big difference if you are in actual war or if you are playing war.‚"Ě (Colonel Enrich ‚"Bubi‚"Ě Hartmann, GAF)

:FI:TacticalS!

Old_Canuck
03-15-2004, 01:08 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TPCMike:
....Does it really matter what other people do as long as we all enjoy it?...
Just go fly and enjoy it.... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/53.gif TPCMike, you are totally missing the point. The object is NOT to have fun. Sheeesh ... what ... are ... you ... thinking? The object is to show how we are superior to others and then try to bring those less fortunates up to our level. This way we're not only superior, we're benevolently superior. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

OC

"You don't stop playing because you grow old, you grow old because you stop playing."

Aaron_GT
03-15-2004, 01:09 PM
I had a big problem to begin
with no icons on the map.
The key is to keep an eye
on your course, the map,
and coastlines and rivers.
It gets easier with practice

With regard to vision, the
fully zoomed view subtends
angles in the game and at
the eye in about a 1:1
ratio. Unfortunately we
don't get the width of
vision at this scale without
a multiple monitor set up.

When we get 120+ degrees
of vision, stereoscopic,
with at least 1600x1200
resolution per eye at at
least 30 fps with a
head tracking binocular
headset arrangement we'll
be in business. In terms
of graphics, it probably
means twice the power of
a 9800, so that part
shouldn't be too far off.
The display tech is getting
there too just typically at
TV resolutions (800x600)
but as HDTV becomes more
popular we'll likely see
higher definitions for
around the same price ($600)
Whether or not it will be
a 120 field of view is
another matter.

I'd say in 2 years this sort
of visual display will be
available at a relatively
reasonable price.

The problem is with goggles
you can't see the keyboard!
New input technology will
be required too. We had a
data glove at work 10 years
ago - what ever happened to
them?

BM357_Raven
03-15-2004, 01:49 PM
michapma:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
Did anyone ever notice that the sun doesn't glint off of aircraft and their surfaces?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually it can and does sometimes. I had the tod set around 8 AM in an online DF server with ground objects and the planes did kinda shimmer which is something I noticed. I was well above them and they were near the deck.

I dunno if it was paint jobs, angle of sun, or what, but they stood out..

Also, give the 800x600x32 res a try and lemme know what you think. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Blazing Magnums 357th VFG
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BM357_Raven
03-15-2004, 02:01 PM
georgeo76:

regardless of whether you fly FR regularly or not, your website is a great resource for any pilot. I especially like the part about the 'thinking pilot' and believe that your articles in relation to the TP are essential an essential for any FR vfp.

S~

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Two_Hawks
03-15-2004, 02:04 PM
Russian or the new FW190...... Gunther Rall was thinking......
"I couldn't see the colour and insignia on the other aircraft, only the silhouette. So i chased him at high speed, pulled up, and at that moment saw the aircraft against the ground instead of the sun. The red star was glaring back at me from his fuselage. I couldn't turn away, because he would have just turned too, and shoot me down like a duck.
I turned back from the left and down, pulled the trigger, and there was an ear-splitting, terrifying crash. Collision! I bounced on this Russian from above. I cut his wing with my propeller, and he cut my fuselage with his propeller. He got the worst of it, because my propeller went through his wing like a ripsaw."

I fly with no icons it adds to MY experience. DO I SHOOT??...DO I SHOOT??.... DO I SHOOT??........SHOOT,SHOOT,SHOOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Ive taken quick shots at my fellow German flyers. The yellow noses, when present , help out alot.

TooCooL34
03-15-2004, 02:07 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BM357_Raven:
Also, give the 800x600x32 res a try and lemme know what you think. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Oh, Raven, Please.. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_redface.gifops:

I tested enough but that res didn't hook me. Dot is larger but that's all. I don't see what I easily see in high res. Of course, I can get infos of the a/c. But that's not by my eye, it's by experience and perception.

Do you ever ground-attack in 800x600? It's a joke.

-----------------

=815=TooCooL34 in =815=Squadron

-= 8 1 5 =- FB Dedi Server is coming soon. (with AEP Dedicated Server)
100Mb IDC line, P4 2.8G server.
Full real but limited icon, minimap path and spdbar.
You can expect something, since I run the server myself. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

BM357_Raven
03-15-2004, 02:12 PM
Someone pointed out to me that video cards can have a lot to do with what we see. I have an ATI Radeon 9800 and I cant remember how updated it is... I'm from the school "if it ain't broke, dont update.." school. That's from bad experiences..

But I noticed Falcon_41 said:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
I've spent many years flying and I have around 12500 hours in anything from Tomahawks to DC-8's. Even with a copilot and ATC constantly helping you, it is HARD to find other a/c up there. It IS!......

[and then]

Sure, have fun without icons. Just remember, it's not that hard in REAL LIFE.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Falcon_41, could you do a small favor for me? Could you join in one of our FR servers (or any), set your resolution down to 800x600 and just see by chance if you find the planes to be not only easier to spot, but more like RL?

If not, no biggy.. Thanks in advance http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Blazing Magnums 357th VFG
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[This message was edited by BM357_Raven on Mon March 15 2004 at 01:26 PM.]

BM357_Raven
03-15-2004, 02:58 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
Do you ever ground-attack in 800x600? It's a joke.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

yes lots of ground attack...should come fly with me sometime... Maybe I'll learn something from you...or maybe,....who knows. Let's just say I'm not begging the point simply to argue.

Blazing Magnums 357th VFG
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TooCooL34
03-15-2004, 03:05 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BM357_Raven:
yes lots of ground attack...should come fly with me sometime... Maybe I'll learn something from you...or maybe,....who knows. Let's just say I'm not begging the point simply to argue.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Roger, maybe it's about the difference of Gfx card and monitor.
Sure, I'll fly sometime with you, but I'm currently working 14 hours a day. 1 sortie per a day is luxury these days. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

But I'm on your side, don't forget that. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

-----------------

=815=TooCooL34 in =815=Squadron

-= 8 1 5 =- FB Dedi Server is coming soon. (with AEP Dedicated Server)
100Mb IDC line, P4 2.8G server.
Full real but limited icon, minimap path and spdbar.
You can expect something, since I run the server myself. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

wotan111
03-15-2004, 03:39 PM
$25 for a flying lesson..........In the UK to learn to fly and get your PPL it would cost you upwards of ‚£6000!


One flying lesson cost about ‚£85 up.

I was thinking about try to get my PPL and the a CPL but it is just way to expensive.......only for the rich here

BM357_Raven
03-15-2004, 03:46 PM
rg good cpy...

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TPCMike
03-15-2004, 03:48 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Old_Canuck: http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/53.gif TPCMike, you are totally missing the point. The object is NOT to have fun. Sheeesh ... what ... are ... you ... thinking? The object is to show how we are superior to others and then try to bring those less fortunates up to our level. This way we're not only superior, we're benevolently superior. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

OC

"You don't stop playing because you grow old, you grow old because you stop playing."<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Ahhhhh I get it now.

BOW DOWN TO ME YOU NON TRACK IR OWNING ARCADE SETTINGS PLAYING PEONS FOR I AM YOUR GOD!!!

Better? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

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Dnmy
03-15-2004, 04:05 PM
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/11.gif

much better http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

air_malik
03-15-2004, 04:44 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Did anyone ever notice that the sun doesn't glint off of aircraft and their surfaces?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I've always thought this feature would be a great addition to FB. Hopefully it'll be added to BoB.

It'd be nice to be able to occasionally see a glint off a canopy and be warned about the presence of a plane well before actually seeing it.

I think Mig Alley had such a feature. Never played it but I've seen screenshots. [did a quick search on google but didn't find any]

crazyivan1970
03-15-2004, 04:44 PM
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/10.gif is that horse already dead? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/34.gif - no .... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/52.gif what if http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/784.gif .. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/34.gif - no worries we will http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/smileys-gun2.gif those http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/59.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/784.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/351.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/1241.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/35.gif
V!
Regards,

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VFC*Crazyivan aka VFC*HOST

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Kozhedub: In combat potential, the Yak-3, La-7 and La-9 fighters were indisputably superior to the Bf-109s and Fw-190s. But, as they say, no matter how good the violin may be, much depends on the violinist. I always felt respect for an enemy pilot whose plane I failed to down.

Copperhead310th
03-15-2004, 04:57 PM
well i have to agree with Snoopy 100% on this one. & luckyboy pretty uch sumed up every thing i had to say so no need to get beyond the 1st page here. it's that same old, same old argument. & it will never go away.

Lastly i'd like to say this too the full dificult guys.

Just because YOU like something DOES NOT mean that you must force you piticular tastes on others or try to persuade them that YOUR WAY is better. most of us asre adults & can make up our minds for our selvs. We need not people like YOU to do this for us.

http://imageshack.us/files/copper%20sig%20with%20rank.jpg
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Snoop_Baron
03-15-2004, 05:59 PM
I hope to have some free time soon so I can respond in detail to some of your posts.

It seems to me that a lot of people who keep arguing that no icons is better than icons only know about the default icon settings (which are also very unrealistic but in the opposite end of the spectrum).

With the addition of configurable icons in FB you can edit the following independently:

dot range
plane type range (ex. I-16, P-51)
side range (i.e. blue or red, without this icons are gray to black)
pilot number
range indicator
pilot name

The icon settings I choose in this example to improve the simulation was plane type only at .5km. This is only one sample setting. For example I could have also chosen only range indicator at .5km. The main point being that you can use limited icons to make the game more realistic than no icons. With these settings combat will be more like it was in WWII than with no icons. With limited icons you can get much more realistic bounces than with no icons. We would have a lot fewer WWII aces if they had the poor sight sim-pilot in FB is with no icons http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif.

Some of you must have joined in this thread with out actualy reading my original document. As otherwise your counter arguments and points simply don't make any sense. I invite you to take a look at this before posting:

http://www.snoopbaron.com/aircombat/RealismDebate.html

s!
Snoop

:FI:Snoop Baron
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RedDeth
03-15-2004, 09:13 PM
badsight what is with the AFJ slam in your sig? were you just born that way or did your daddy drop you out of a window?

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Pentallion
03-15-2004, 10:30 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Copperhead310th:
well i have to agree with Snoopy 100% on this one. & luckyboy pretty uch sumed up every thing i had to say so no need to get beyond the 1st page here. it's that same old, same old argument. & it will never go away.

_Lastly i'd like to say this too the full dificult guys._

_Just because YOU like something DOES NOT mean that you must force you piticular tastes on others or try to persuade them that YOUR WAY is better. most of us asre adults & can make up our minds for our selvs. We need not people like YOU to do this for us._

http://imageshack.us/files/copper%20sig%20with%20rank.jpg
_http://www.members.tripod.com/tophatssquadron
_<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Unfortunately, Copperhead, they DO force their tastes on all of us with their whining to get every single online war to use Full Real no padlock and/or no icons. Many squads would love an online war that had one or the other or both. But the ostrich has its head firmly planted in the ground and refuses to admit that Full Real Isn't.

http://www.simops.com/249th/sigs/Wildcard.jpg

Rogodin
03-15-2004, 11:11 PM
I've seen more "fook you FR geeks" threads than I have the antithesis of that proposition-so I suggest that all of us keep it in our brains-how does that sound???

this thread is one of those

rogo

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"Those who long for exaltation look upwards, but I look downwards for I am the exalted."
Thus Spake Zarathustra.

HarryVoyager
03-15-2004, 11:49 PM
I've seen to many accidents where one or the other party said the other party "wasn't there" to put any credence to the thought that situational awareness is anything but a learned skill, that an unfortunate percentage of the population completely lack.

I have seen to many back roads/dead ends/wrong parts of town, due to bad directions/bad navigation/personal error, to believe that navigation is anything but a learned skill, that an unfortunat percentage of the population completely lack.

Now here's another question for you all; without my glasses, I can only see detail about a foot from my nose.

Is that realistic?

Why?

Harry Voyager

Pentallion
03-15-2004, 11:49 PM
Doesn't sound very good rogo, but if that's how you feel then why didn't you just keep it in your brain?

http://www.simops.com/249th/sigs/Wildcard.jpg

Pentallion
03-15-2004, 11:51 PM
Harry, no that isn't realistic if you're playing a race car sim as race car drivers aren't half blind. And fighter pilots generally had to pass eye exams as well. You didn't see Mr. Magoo in WW2 like you do with FR.

http://www.simops.com/249th/sigs/Wildcard.jpg

HarryVoyager
03-16-2004, 12:33 AM
The counter argument is that many pilots did not. In the Soviet Union, their need for pilots became so desparate that they were sending out anyone who could survive flight school. Germany got to be almost the same way by the end of the war.

By contrast, the Allies were enforcing ever more stringent entrance requirements just to cull the massive numbers of applicants by the end of the war. However, in the early years, they were taking just about anyone with a pulse. I believe there were at least a couple of US aces from early in the war who were actually colour blind, and I know that R.S. Johnson failed aerial gunnery.

Not every pilot who saw action during WWII had 30/20 vision. Many were merely 20/20, or 20/19, and, if you were sufficently skilled in other areas, it was not difficult to serve with as low as 20/15 vision. You might serve your first tour in bombers, but most bomber pilots, who survived their first tour, and chose to go for a second tour, could serve in a fighter unit. Sometimes even before then... I recall at least two of the pilots in the Black Sheep were supposed to be flying Dauntlesses. It would not be unussual, especially in war time, to encounter a pilot with less than perfect eyesight.

The point I am trying to make, is that it is no less realistic to have pilots with mediocre eyesight in this game, than it would be to have floating ID signs appear for every aircraft when it got within 500m of yours.

Harry Voyager

michapma
03-16-2004, 03:10 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by IV-JG51_L.Z:
You only got "bounced" one time where you should have seen me, and I believe you have already addressed that problem in your post. I'd like to tell you more, but that would be "aiding the enemy" http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'll get you yet, Red Baron! http://www.hauntfreaks.com/hauntfreaks/features/images/snoopy.jpg


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>As to you Chap, the next time you're running a "non serious" DF, turn on the icons http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif It's hard for me to make a distinction between "serious" and "not serious". All I know how to do is manuever for the kill and avoid getting shot. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Our squadron DF sessions are ALWAYS totally non-serious, and here the policy was definitely NO RULES. I was hoping for a Quake session to try out the new map in that regard. You did the right thing. I'm looking forward to the next time. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-mad.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

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[This message was edited by michapma on Tue March 16 2004 at 02:44 AM.]

Dnmy
03-16-2004, 07:59 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by HarryVoyager:
The point I am trying to make, is that it is no less realistic to have pilots with mediocre eyesight in this game, than it would be to have floating ID signs appear for every aircraft when it got within 500m of yours.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And it's a very interesting point.http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

The question however is, is it possible/realistic/feasible to simulate a difference between pilots with mediocre or excellent eyesight and all the gradations between?

Or is it just a matter of saying, hey i'm better at you at view manipulation because i practiced at it more and i have a trackIR, so i have better simulated eyesight than you? Or the other hypothetical case where one person is playing this sim at low resolution and graphical detail which would allow him to see aircraft much easier than on high resolution/detail. Would that be a good simulation of differences in eyesight?

I think not. I think it's impossible to even model differences in eyesight with FB in its current state. But the preposition is an interesting one for sure.http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

We could take a sidestep towards individual pilot strength and stamina for example. In FB we're all equally strong pilots in equal planes. Which means we're all able to exert the exact same amount of force on the virtual stick or to experience the exactly same effects from pulling G's.

But in real life there could be a whole lot of difference there as well. Can those differences be modelled, should they be modelled? You tell me http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Cossack13
03-16-2004, 08:30 AM
Interesting post...er, ah...Hmmm, do you prefer to go by Snoop or by Baron?

Anyway, I am always amazed at how upset some folks get over the settings that other people are using. In HyperLobby, it only takes a moment to check on what settings are being used on a server. If you like them, join up otherwise pass by.

Having played the full range of settings from n00b to VEF, I'm finding that the game is fun whether it is played at maximum difficulty or a notch or two below.

One thing for sure, if the games you are playing include a high number of AI fighters, max difficulty puts you at a disadvantage as the AI never has a problem finding and tracking the humans.

http://www.tolwyn.com/~cossack/White13.gif

WooHooToYou
03-16-2004, 08:59 AM
Obviously in real life planes didn‚'t fly around with large icons next to them.

My problem is the ‚ėno icons‚' guys often use the field of view controls to zoom in on the other planes to see if they are friend or enemy.

This is just as ‚ėunrealistic‚' as having irons on.

WW2 fighter pilots didn‚'t have telescopic lenses to zoom in on aircraft so they could see if they were friendly or not.

TacticalSkirmsh
03-16-2004, 09:17 AM
For those who argue for "strict" gameplay settings, let me ask - do you use the zoom-in feature to ID planes and/or the flight path?

hmmmmm..... interesting.

‚"There is a big difference if you are in actual war or if you are playing war.‚"Ě (Colonel Enrich ‚"Bubi‚"Ě Hartmann, GAF)

:FI:TacticalS!

NorrisMcWhirter
03-16-2004, 09:49 AM
Hi,

Another consideration for peripheral vision is that vision is sensitive to movement; a point qualified by snipers (as opposed to Zeitsev Il-2 gunners). Theoretically, an object moving across the field of peripheral vision would be easier to detect than one moving towards or away from you.

I agree with Lucky Boy; it's the old boys' club for the most part. Just fly with whatever settings you feel are alright and wait for the technology (that we can all access) to catch up.

Cheers,
Norris


================================================== ==========

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LilHorse
03-16-2004, 09:51 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WooHooToYou:
Obviously in real life planes didn‚'t fly around with large icons next to them.

My problem is the ‚ėno icons‚' guys often use the field of view controls to zoom in on the other planes to see if they are friend or enemy.

This is just as ‚ėunrealistic‚' as having irons on.

WW2 fighter pilots didn‚'t have telescopic lenses to zoom in on aircraft so they could see if they were friendly or not.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

In case you missed it in one of the previous posts, the zoomed in view actually coresponds to a true 1:1 view. That is, when you are zoomed in you are seeing things in the same dimentions as you would in RL. So the gunsight as well as the instrument dials and everything you see outside the cockpit coresponds with actual views and distance resolutions. Therefore, zoom in view is, in fact, more realistic. The problem with the zoom is that the field of view is severly limited. Like looking around from your a/c through a toilet paper tube. To make it work you'd need a multiple monitor set up just to be able to see a good amount of anything in that view. The compromise with a single computer monitor is to pull the FOV back to get a good view of the sky and cockpit. So using zoom to get a quick check on what is flying "out there" is totally legit.

LilHorse
03-16-2004, 10:21 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TacticalSkirmsh:
For those who argue for "strict" gameplay settings, let me ask - do you use the zoom-in feature to ID planes and/or the flight path?

hmmmmm..... interesting.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, I absolutely use it. See my post above.

As for the rest of the FR debate, one of the earlier posters brought up a good point regarding things like missions that are historically correct or plausible with objectives to be met. Where teamwork is essential for meeting those objectives (and greatly helped with actual voice communications). And surviving missions is as important as anything else.

This is also what appeals to many in the FR crowd. There are times in VEF when you might spend 45 minutes on a "sightseeing tour". That is, you fly a mission and never make contact with the enemy and fly back home. Not very exciting but that's what often happened in RL. But you've done what you were supposed to do and flown your mission. Maybe the next one will be more exciting. Or maybe you'll get killed in it and that's the end of your present career and you have to start over again.

How many medium server aficianados would like this? Strange as it may seem we (FR nuts) actually do like it. We like it to be an immersive simulation. FR dogfight servers are really just flying, tactics and gunnery practice for me. I can't wait till VEF converts to AEP. I'm getting a little bored with just straight up "dog rooms".

Dnmy
03-16-2004, 10:23 AM
Ofcourse it's legit. Everything within the game's constraints IS legit. It's just that the action to zoom in and back out is totally unrealistic. Nobody has the ability to vary their field of view nor zoom in or out like with a telescopic lense.

And if the zoomed view offers a realistic picture, then we should be flying in zoomed view ALL the time. And another thing, what is then simulated by the wide view? A crosseyed pilot?http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Yeah that's it, if you zoom in the crosseyed pilot is looking straight again. But the moment you zoom out, he's crosseyed again. LOL

Basically our simpilot is not just a shortsighted one eyed cataractic dwarf. He's crosseyed as well. An excellent simulation of a true fighter pilot. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/34.gif

WooHooToYou
03-16-2004, 10:29 AM
Ignore

[This message was edited by WooHooToYou on Tue March 16 2004 at 09:42 AM.]

Teufel_Eldritch
03-16-2004, 10:33 AM
About TrackIR...

I have noticed several ppl mention TrackIR has a advantage. It might very well be but using TrackIR does not make one unbeatable. I use TrackIR(well not really I use Cam2Pan...much cheaper) & while it has helped me be a better pilot I still get shot down. TrackIR is being overinflated....is being made out to be some unbeatable weapon of the Air Combat gods. It isnt....it is only a tool. What makes the difference is the SKILL of the pilot not so much his plane or his gaming tools.


As for the original discussion....

I prefer the term Full Difficulty myself. Full Real as a term is okay....but misleading. How do I fly? Full Difficulty/Real or with the more arcade like features on? Well.....I fly however I wish to. If I feel like flying FD/FR then I do. If I dont feel like FD/FR then I dont.

Personally I think there is too much hullaballu about this subject. If someone wants to fly with the more difficult settings then they should be able to w/o everyone ragging on them. If a person wishes to fly NOT FD/FR then they too should be able to fly w/o anyone raggin on them.

YANKEE ROSE
-----------
"For a world of happiness & equality is but a fantasy driven by men who envy the ruling class."

BM357_TinMan
03-16-2004, 10:35 AM
You people amaze me...

The tightest FOV offers the most realistic representation of what things would look like in relation to an actual pilot. Unfortuneately, all peripheral vision is lost due to the limitations of the monitor. This makes it neccessary to vary between the three FOV's offered in the game.

AGAIN, there were NO BIG icons floating over airplanes in WWII that I know of. So you have a choice to deal with the limitations of the 2D monitor.

Turn on TOTALLY unrealistic icons that NEVER existed.

OR

Vary your FOV from one extreme, completely zoomed in (which isn't that much better than actual sight) to the other, completely zoomed out (which offers the best peripheral vission available)

SIDE NOTE: I almost never "zoom" in all the way. I find it very much a Pain the Rump with track ir. I fly almost exclusively "zoomed" out.

BM357_TinMan
xo BM357 VFG
www.bm357.com (http://www.bm357.com)

WooHooToYou
03-16-2004, 10:38 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LilHorse:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WooHooToYou:
Obviously in real life planes didn‚'t fly around with large icons next to them.

My problem is the ‚ėno icons‚' guys often use the field of view controls to zoom in on the other planes to see if they are friend or enemy.

This is just as ‚ėunrealistic‚' as having irons on.

WW2 fighter pilots didn‚'t have telescopic lenses to zoom in on aircraft so they could see if they were friendly or not.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

In case you missed it in one of the previous posts, the zoomed in view actually coresponds to a true 1:1 view. That is, when you are zoomed in you are seeing things in the same dimentions as you would in RL. So the gunsight as well as the instrument dials and everything you see outside the cockpit coresponds with actual views and distance resolutions. Therefore, zoom in view is, in fact, more realistic. The problem with the zoom is that the field of view is severly limited. Like looking around from your a/c through a toilet paper tube. To make it work you'd need a multiple monitor set up just to be able to see a good amount of anything in that view. The compromise with a single computer monitor is to pull the FOV back to get a good view of the sky and cockpit. So using zoom to get a quick check on what is flying "out there" is totally legit.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


I‚'m not quite sure what you mean.

Do you mean that the ‚ėGunsight View‚' (Delete key) is the view that corresponds to the 1:1 view you mention?

Do you mean the size of the plane you see when Gunsight View is selected, corresponds to the planes size in real life?

(I quoted the wrong post 1st time).

LilHorse
03-16-2004, 10:53 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WooHooToYou:

I‚'m not quite sure what you mean.

Do you mean that the ‚ėGunsight View‚' (Delete key) is the view that corresponds to the 1:1 view you mention?

Do you mean the size of the plane you see when Gunsight View is selected, corresponds to the planes size in real life?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, in other words if you were to hit the delete key then the gunsight you see pretty well coresponds to the actual size of the real gunsight. Now sit back from your computer screen at the same distance that a fighter pilot would from that gunsight. Now what you have is an accurate representation of what you would actually see. The problem is that you can only see what is contained within your monitor's FOV in that view. To make it closer to reality you would have to hemispherically surround yourself from above with computer monitors all at that zoomed in view and assigned the views you would see if you looked around. LOL! Pretty expensive proposition! So, the compromise is that you pull your FOV back via the "end" and "page down" keys. Of course you sit much closer to your monitor than you would to the front of a cockpit as well.

WooHooToYou
03-16-2004, 11:09 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LilHorse:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WooHooToYou:

I‚'m not quite sure what you mean.

Do you mean that the ‚ėGunsight View‚' (Delete key) is the view that corresponds to the 1:1 view you mention?

Do you mean the size of the plane you see when Gunsight View is selected, corresponds to the planes size in real life?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, in other words if you were to hit the delete key then the gunsight you see pretty well coresponds to the actual size of the real gunsight. Now sit back from your computer screen at the same distance that a fighter pilot would from that gunsight. Now what you have is an accurate representation of what you would actually see. The problem is that you can only see what is contained within your monitor's FOV in that view. To make it closer to reality you would have to hemispherically surround yourself from above with computer monitors all at that zoomed in view and assigned the views you would see if you looked around. LOL! Pretty expensive proposition! So, the compromise is that you pull your FOV back via the "end" and "page down" keys. Of course you sit much closer to your monitor than you would to the front of a cockpit as well.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Shouldn‚'t the display of icons change depending on the FOV selected then?

I thought the whole idea of limited icons was to compensate for ‚ėdisappearing planes‚' when a wide FOV was selected. In real life the plane would be visible, but because of the wide FOV the plane is not so you need to compensate for that fact.

When you zoom in the icon should reduce in size and then disappear altogether with the Gunsight View selected.

HarryVoyager
03-16-2004, 11:11 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LilHorse:
This is also what appeals to many in the FR crowd. There are times in VEF when you might spend 45 minutes on a "sightseeing tour". That is, you fly a mission and never make contact with the enemy and fly back home. Not very exciting but that's what often happened in RL. But you've done what you were supposed to do and flown your mission. Maybe the next one will be more exciting. Or maybe you'll get killed in it and that's the end of your present career and you have to start over again.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'll second that.

The best mission I have ever flown was one where we were tasked with reconning an enemy airbase. I managed to lose my wing lead in a cloud bank. We went through it, and when we came out, he just wasn't there. He didn't make it back to base either. (I saved the track, and found out later that he had been shot down by a pack of marauding 109's.)

Without my lead, I opted to continue the flight on my own. Meanwhile, I can hear the radio chatter for a large air battle that the day's other flight had gotten involved in. I was to far from the flight to have any idea where it was, all I could hear were the pilots calling out kills, or yelling for help.

I eventually found the airbase, and reconned it without any enemy oppositio, and flew for home.

About half way there, I got bounced by a 109E that I hadn't even seen. I lived, and I think I got him enough that he decided to leave, and I finally managed to make it back to home.

What made the mission so much fun, was that I really had very little knowedge as to what was really going on. I had bits, but I never got the Grand Admiral overarching view of everything in the world. For a brief moment I felt as though I was just a small part in a much larger war.

If map icons had been on, or short range plane icons had been up, none of the things that happened would have. I would never have lost my wing leader, I would have known what was really going on with the other air battle, and could have even join in, had I so desired, and that 109 would never have been able to catch my so unaware. It would have been just another flight of the omniscient player-hero, out to save to world from all comers. Sometimes it's fun to play the underinformed grunt.

Harry Voyager

LilHorse
03-16-2004, 11:30 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WooHooToYou:

Shouldn‚'t the display of icons change depending on the FOV selected then?

I thought the whole idea of limited icons was to compensate for ‚ėdisappearing planes‚' when a wide FOV was selected. In real life the plane would be visible, but because of the wide FOV the plane is not so you need to compensate for that fact.

When you zoom in the icon should reduce in size and then disappear altogether with the Gunsight View selected.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Where you start to see icons depends on a fixed distance from the plane you're flying. That distance can be varied. The amount of zoom in or out that you experience when cycling through the views only amounts to maybe six or eight virtual feet (if that). So, whether you're zoomed in or not isn't going to change the distance at which you begin to see an icon.

And yeah, Harry. That's really a part of it. Try being on patrol in VEF after your Stuka pilots were sure they didn't need escort and then hearing them calling out that they're being attacked and your patrol is a conciderable distance away. Frustration. But probably closer to what it would feel like for real. Ah yes! Immersion. Ya gotta love it.

WooHooToYou
03-16-2004, 11:46 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LilHorse:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WooHooToYou:

Shouldn‚'t the display of icons change depending on the FOV selected then?

I thought the whole idea of limited icons was to compensate for ‚ėdisappearing planes‚' when a wide FOV was selected. In real life the plane would be visible, but because of the wide FOV the plane is not so you need to compensate for that fact.

When you zoom in the icon should reduce in size and then disappear altogether with the Gunsight View selected.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Where you start to see icons depends on a fixed distance from the plane you're flying. That distance can be varied. The amount of zoom in or out that you experience when cycling through the views only amounts to maybe six or eight virtual feet (if that). So, whether you're zoomed in or not isn't going to change the distance at which you begin to see an icon.

And yeah, Harry. That's really a part of it. Try being on patrol in VEF after your Stuka pilots were sure they didn't need escort and then hearing them calling out that they're being attacked and your patrol is a conciderable distance away. Frustration. But probably closer to what it would feel like for real. Ah yes! Immersion. Ya gotta love it.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I‚'ve just been doing some tests and the size of the planes varies quite a lot between Wide View and Gunsight View. The zoom seems to have a bigger effect than the six or eight virtual feet you suggest.

TacticalSkirmsh
03-16-2004, 12:12 PM
Lilhorse,

I another poster got my point with regards to zooming in/out. I accept your arguement about when zoomed in is realistic. Then you explain that it is a compromise because of the limitations of the computer screen, because of the FOV is just too narrow to be playable.

While I realize folks who argue about icons and such may never agree, at least understand that those who argue for icons sincerely believe that they address a limitation with regards to their PC/personal vision. No one on either side has ever suggested icons existed in real life. That's just plain stupid (this comments isn't directed to you personally mate).

I was the "enlightened" one http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif who has tried to take the discussion to a more important level in discussion fulfillment of missions, etc... It's odd that anyone would pronounce judgement on realism as it relates to silly little icons if they were not pursuing realistic gameplay to begin with.

Well, this is the 20th debate (or there about) that I also have read about realism. Neither side ever "wins," but at least everyone continues enjoying this great game http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif. Isn't that the real point?

Regards,
TactS!

‚"There is a big difference if you are in actual war or if you are playing war.‚"Ě (Colonel Enrich ‚"Bubi‚"Ě Hartmann, GAF)

:FI:TacticalS!

WooHooToYou
03-16-2004, 12:19 PM
My last thoughts on this:

If I had a wraparound monitor that was the same size as an aircraft canopy, I would say turn those icons off.

But I don‚'t.

I have a 17inch monitor.

This imposes a limitation on what can be displayed.

When there is a limitation there is usually a compensation.

Icons are the compensation.

LilHorse
03-16-2004, 12:49 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WooHooToYou:
My last thoughts on this:

If I had a wraparound monitor that was the same size as an aircraft canopy, I would say turn those icons off.

But I don‚'t.

I have a 17inch monitor.

This imposes a limitation on what can be displayed.

When there is a limitation there is usually a compensation.

Icons are the compensation.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's cool. I'm not telling ppl they should only fly full real or only VEF. Fly what you like. I'm just saying that you aren't so terribly limited in FR as ppl make out. Earlier in this thread I mentioned that I don't have an uber system (heck all's I've got is a 17" monitor too). But I and a good number of others manage to do quite well in FR. And so can anybody provided they don't have some kind of uncorrectable vision problem. You see (here's the dirty little secret) if a twit like me can manage to do it anybody can.

So, in the spirit of tolerance and mutual respect and understanding (yeechh! somebody wipe the warm fuzzy offa me) I'll just say that it comes down to personal preference.

Pentallion
03-16-2004, 03:16 PM
The bottom line to me is that with icons on, you simulate what the AVERAGE pilot could actually discern at realistic ranges. Icons off, you have near-sighted pilots flying planes.

Zoom view is 20-20 vision through a tube. 20-20 wide vision would require a compromise to be made for realisms sake. That compromise is icons on.

So the settings people call full real are only full difficulty. Full real would be icons on. Padlock too imo.

http://www.simops.com/249th/sigs/Wildcard.jpg

609IAP_Recon
03-16-2004, 03:30 PM
Let me ask original post:

I say 'ok you are right'.

Then I goto server and they have friendly only.

Does this mean you think it was easier to just see friendlies in real life?

JG50_Recon
http://jg50.com/images/JG50_SIGG.gif
----
http://www.thepassionofthechrist.com

Snoop_Baron
03-16-2004, 07:22 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
But I and a good number of others manage to do quite well in FR. And so can anybody provided they don't have some kind of uncorrectable vision problem. You see (here's the dirty little secret) if a twit like me can manage to do it anybody can.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ofcourse you can do well in FR, every one else playing on the same server has the exact same severe visibility limitations so it's a fair fight with everyone at the same disadvantage. You certainly wouldn't do as well if everyone else in the game had WooHooToYou's wrap-a-round monitor, or in this game if everyone else had reasonable limited icons. By playing the game with no icons you are placing your virtual pilot at severe visibility disadvantage that he would not have suffered in real life. And no this is not a good way of compensating to some of the advantages you have as a sim pilot.

s!

:FI:Snoop Baron
http://www.endlager.net/fis/pix/banners/fis_banner_01.jpg

HellToupee
03-16-2004, 07:51 PM
theres the whole real unreal argument, but i just find icons much more enjoyable, without them you have no idea who that team mate is your near to, or that you can see with a bandit on his six, fights are smaller as everyone is lost trying to find somebody to shoot down.

http://lamppost.mine.nu/ahclan/files/sigs/spitwhiners1.jpg

Jetbuff
03-16-2004, 08:03 PM
Snoop-Baron, there are a wide variety of near fatal flaws in your argument:

a) You assume that setting icons to very limited setting is equivalent to having them turned off. In my experience there is quite a difference between the two.

b) You chose, rather understandably perhaps, the single worst place for an aircraft to be in terms of visibility - right on the land/air border. I wonder why you didn't throw in some haze there as well.

c) You opted to present your argument as a jpeg instead of a track file, I wonder why? I wonder if it has anything to do with the lossy compression algorithms involved? Hmmmm....


I will not argue that Full Real (or full difficulty if you prefer) in FB is not harder than IRL - it is! HOWEVER, it is also:

a) not as much easier than IRL as icons on, or WWV, or external padlock, etc.

b) a fair tradeoff since on the flip-side there are many aspects of real flying that are MUCH, MUCH harder than they are in the sim.

c) the best way to bring about realistic tactics and immersive experiences in FB as opposed to mindless furballs.

http://members.rogers.com/teemaz/sig.jpg

WUAF_Badsight
03-16-2004, 08:41 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jetbuff:

c) the best way to bring about realistic tactics and immersive experiences in FB as opposed to mindless furballs. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

having a limited icon set does not suddenly make a cockpit locked server into a mindless furball

Snoop_Baron
03-16-2004, 11:11 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jetbuff:
Snoop-Baron, there are a wide variety of near fatal flaws in your argument:
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm still haven't seen any near fatal flaws in my argument.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
a) You assume that setting icons to very limited setting is equivalent to having them turned off. In my experience there is quite a difference between the two.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm not sure I understand what you are saying here. I don't assume them to be equivalent, that is the point. Limited icons are an improvement over no icons and help make this a better simulation. That's my point.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
b) You chose, rather understandably perhaps, the single worst place for an aircraft to be in terms of visibility - right on the land/air border. I wonder why you didn't throw in some haze there as well.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I porpusely picked an example where no icons gave really bad visibilty when real life would have given you much better visibility. This was done to highlight the problme with no icons. That is make it more obvious.

If you look at the no icons picture with 30 degree visibility you will notice that it is pretty easy to spot the plane. This is because the plane is now displayed closer to the size it would be in real life at this distance (ofcourse it varies depending on your screen size, etc. but it is much closer to real size than the 90 degree view were everything is to small). The problem is that while the plane is perfectly visible at 30 degrees with no icons and in the real world it is not visible and practicaly impossible to see in the 90 degree view because the dot doesn't have the level of detail (no shape) or the size it should have if it was true to life.

Then by adding limited icon settings I show that we can get visibility much closer to what we have with no icons at 30 degree visibility but in 90 degree visibility. This is still worse than what a real pilot would have which would be ~120 degrees visibility with the plane shape disernable and plane size much larger than the little dot that is shown in no icons at 90 degree setting.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
c) You opted to present your argument as a jpeg instead of a track file, I wonder why? I wonder if it has anything to do with the lossy compression algorithms involved? Hmmmm....
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No conspiracy theory here. I just used IL-2 manager to convert the image to something easy to view like I do with all my screen captures. I don't know if you know this but JPEGs support multiple levels of compression the one used by IL2 manager must not be very lossy because the image to me looks about the same as it did when I took the screen shot.

If you believe I'm trying to decive you, which I'm not then just try it out yourself. Just setup the same icon settings and then fly your plane to .47km of an I-16 flying low. Pause the game and take a look at the plane at 90/30 degrees and toggle icons on and off (map a key to this option). This should confirm what I have posted, for those conspiracy theorist out there http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
I will not argue that Full Real (or full difficulty if you prefer) in FB is not harder than IRL - it is! HOWEVER, it is also:

a) not as much easier than IRL as icons on, or WWV, or external padlock, etc.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

First, I'm not talking about those other setting. Just so you know I don't use padlock and agree with you that external padlock is not very realistic. But that was not what I was debating.

I agree that default icon settings do make airplanes easier to spot than in real life.

But limited icons can make spoting planes in this game about as difficult as it is in real life. Instead of to difficult which is what no icons does. This is what my screen shots are meant to illustrate.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
b) a fair tradeoff since on the flip-side there are many aspects of real flying that are MUCH, MUCH harder than they are in the sim.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No it's not a "fair tradeoff". Yes there are other things that are easier in this sim like the lack of feeling the high-Gs. But making visibility less realistic because of this does not make the game more realistic, in fact it only makes it even more unrealistic.

This sim doesn't model unexpected equipment failure which is unrealistic to make up for this lack of realism in this area lets make the visibility simulation even more unreleasitc? Listen to what you are saying, it makes no sense.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
c) the best way to bring about realistic tactics and immersive experiences in FB as opposed to mindless furballs.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

As hardball said, "having a limited icon set does not suddenly make a cockpit locked server into a mindless furball"

I'm sorry m8 but honestly I have nothing personal against no icons and I think it is a fine setting, but I have yet to see a good argument as to how this poor visibility is more realistic than icons that make visbility (especialy at 90 degrees) so much closer to real life.

Look at it this way:

a) You agree that no icons is unrealistic because visibility is worse than in real life.
b) You agree that default icons is unrealistic because visibility is better than in real life.

Then I think the following follows.

You start with limited icons settings at 0.01m meters for everything which is the limited icons equivalant of no icons. Then pick either plane type or range indicator (which ever you think is the better compromise) then slowly increase it's visibility distance stop right before you feel that visibility has become better than that of a real pilot. And there you have it, limited icons that are more real than no icons. That will be as close as you can get to simulating real life pilot visibility in this simulator.

I think I'm being very rational and open minded. I think that the case for limited icons is much stronger than that of no icons.

I hope my points are clearer now.

s!
Snoop

:FI:Snoop Baron
http://www.endlager.net/fis/pix/banners/fis_banner_01.jpg

Snoop_Baron
03-16-2004, 11:17 PM
Just incase anyone is confused the screenshots with the range indicator are simply there so you can verify the distance at which I took the screenshots.

When I talked about using limited icons with just the range indicator in my response to Jetbuff that would be just the range idicator with no color it would start as a light gray and get darker as you get closer.

:FI:Snoop Baron
http://www.endlager.net/fis/pix/banners/fis_banner_01.jpg

Pentallion
03-16-2004, 11:37 PM
Well said Snoop_Baron!!!

BTW, when I said I felt padlock was more real, imo, I wasn't speaking of external padlock. I meant in the pit. But as Snoop said, that is diverging from his original post.

Recon, I do not agree with friendly only icons on. I think you should have the same icons for both sides. Limited icons can have the range set for how far away until the color changes to red or blue. Even set to zero so that it never does.

http://www.simops.com/249th/sigs/Wildcard.jpg

BM357_Raven
03-16-2004, 11:52 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
b) You chose, rather understandably perhaps, the single worst place for an aircraft to be in terms of visibility - right on the land/air border. I wonder why you didn't throw in some haze there as well.

c) You opted to present your argument as a jpeg instead of a track file, I wonder why? I wonder if it has anything to do with the lossy compression algorithms involved? Hmmmm....
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I understand where he's coming from. The same thoughts crossed my mind in terms of location of the bandit and the fact that it was not moving. Not saying you can't make a point with the other plane at that position, but other positions, factors and backdrops would make a more well-rounded collection of data. Either way, I'm not insinuating their's a conspiracy theory, just incomplete data.

Making a track file is an idea, would mean that some people's cards would render the info on the trak differently when they viewed it and we would all see different things and come back to the table with skewed evidence.

I'd be interested in seeing what Snoop sees on his system at his favored video settings while the game is in motion. Then I could compare it to mine.

Perhaps if you recorded a very short track (20 seconds) and then recorded that with FRAPS at a specified FRAP setting the data would be more informative. This would tell me whether things look the same on your system while the game is in motion. Then we could have several other people run the same track on their machines recording the same track with FRAPS. All would submit the avi to be dowloaded by the public and then people could make up their own minds.

Maybe three people who are most vocal from each side could start. I'd like to be one of those people.. If anyone's game..

It depends on whether we want to continue an argument on opinions and fragments of data or really do a case study. If what I am suggesting is at all flawed, then people can object to it and we can tailor it until both sides feel it would be an objective study--at least as it would compare to what we see.

Ultimately, it is up to the individual to decide which settings are better. But it would at least give us more information to work with and tell us if we are even seeing the same things at all. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/53.gif

I'd like to know whether some peoples' systems might hinder their ability to fly FR while other peoples' systems make it playable.

I'd like to compare and show other people what I see on my machine while the game is running. Wouldn't you?

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Just an idea...http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

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Jetbuff
03-17-2004, 05:26 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WUAF_Badsight:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jetbuff:

c) the best way to bring about realistic tactics and immersive experiences in FB as opposed to mindless furballs. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

having a limited icon set does not suddenly make a cockpit locked server into a mindless furball<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
No, it doesn't, but I do find it worsens mid-level visibility on my setup.

http://members.rogers.com/teemaz/sig.jpg

Jetbuff
03-17-2004, 05:38 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Snoop_Baron:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jetbuff:
Snoop-Baron, there are a wide variety of near fatal flaws in your argument:
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I'm still haven't seen any near fatal flaws in my argument.
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Maybe fatal flaws is too powerful a term, it is slightly flawed though nonetheless.
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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
a) You assume that setting icons to very limited setting is equivalent to having them turned off. In my experience there is quite a difference between the two.
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I'm not sure I understand what you are saying here. I don't assume them to be equivalent, that is the point. Limited icons are an improvement over no icons and help make this a better simulation. That's my point.
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See my reply to Badsight above, limited icons are actually worse in terms of the actual visibility of the dot/plane itself before the icon comes into view. It might be a psychological thing, but I find that I see planes without icons better when icons are set to OFF as opposed to manually adjusted with the mp_dotrange command.
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b) You chose, rather understandably perhaps, the single worst place for an aircraft to be in terms of visibility - right on the land/air border. I wonder why you didn't throw in some haze there as well.
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I porpusely picked an example where no icons gave really bad visibilty when real life would have given you much better visibility. This was done to highlight the problme with no icons. That is make it more obvious.

If you look at the no icons picture with 30 degree visibility you will notice that it is pretty easy to spot the plane. This is because the plane is now displayed closer to the size it would be in real life at this distance (ofcourse it varies depending on your screen size, etc. but it is much closer to real size than the 90 degree view were everything is to small). The problem is that while the plane is perfectly visible at 30 degrees with no icons and in the real world it is not visible and practicaly impossible to see in the 90 degree view because the dot doesn't have the level of detail (no shape) or the size it should have if it was true to life.

Then by adding limited icon settings I show that we can get visibility much closer to what we have with no icons at 30 degree visibility but in 90 degree visibility. This is still worse than what a real pilot would have which would be ~120 degrees visibility with the plane shape disernable and plane size much larger than the little dot that is shown in no icons at 90 degree setting.
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Again, my argument is not against your assumptions but the conclusion drawn from them. IMO, a plane on a boundary is harder to spot in any setting, including real life.
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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
c) You opted to present your argument as a jpeg instead of a track file, I wonder why? I wonder if it has anything to do with the lossy compression algorithms involved? Hmmmm....
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No conspiracy theory here. I just used IL-2 manager to convert the image to something easy to view like I do with all my screen captures. I don't know if you know this but JPEGs support multiple levels of compression the one used by IL2 manager must not be very lossy because the image to me looks about the same as it did when I took the screen shot.

If you believe I'm trying to decive you, which I'm not then just try it out yourself. Just setup the same icon settings and then fly your plane to .47km of an I-16 flying low. Pause the game and take a look at the plane at 90/30 degrees and toggle icons on and off (map a key to this option). This should confirm what I have posted, for those conspiracy theorist out there http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
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No conspiracy theory, just a possible bias in the method you selected to showcase your point.
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I will not argue that Full Real (or full difficulty if you prefer) in FB is not harder than IRL - it is! HOWEVER, it is also:

a) not as much easier than IRL as icons on, or WWV, or external padlock, etc.
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First, I'm not talking about those other setting. Just so you know I don't use padlock and agree with you that external padlock is not very realistic. But that was not what I was debating.

I agree that default icon settings do make airplanes easier to spot than in real life.

But limited icons can make spoting planes in this game about as difficult as it is in real life. Instead of to difficult which is what no icons does. This is what my screen shots are meant to illustrate.
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That's where we diverge, I think that limited icons, until the actual icon comes into focus, offer no advantage and in fact may be detrimental to visibility. But that's just my experience. If you are going to use icons, which I am not averse to at all, I think setting them to incredibly short distances serves little or no purpose. I also think that in such a case they should not be accompanied by padlock or color info.
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b) a fair tradeoff since on the flip-side there are many aspects of real flying that are MUCH, MUCH harder than they are in the sim.
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No it's not a "fair tradeoff". Yes there are other things that are easier in this sim like the lack of feeling the high-Gs. But making visibility less realistic because of this does not make the game more realistic, in fact it only makes it even more unrealistic.

This sim doesn't model unexpected equipment failure which is unrealistic to make up for this lack of realism in this area lets make the visibility simulation even more unreleasitc? Listen to what you are saying, it makes no sense.
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The doubt regarding visibility makes people more cautious, a bit closer to real life.
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c) the best way to bring about realistic tactics and immersive experiences in FB as opposed to mindless furballs.
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As hardball said, "having a limited icon set does not suddenly make a cockpit locked server into a mindless furball"

I'm sorry m8 but honestly I have nothing personal against no icons and I think it is a fine setting, but I have yet to see a good argument as to how this poor visibility is more realistic than icons that make visbility (especialy at 90 degrees) so much closer to real life.

Look at it this way:

a) You agree that no icons is unrealistic because visibility is worse than in real life.
b) You agree that default icons is unrealistic because visibility is better than in real life.

Then I think the following follows.

You start with limited icons settings at 0.01m meters for everything which is the limited icons equivalant of no icons. Then pick either plane type or range indicator (which ever you think is the better compromise) then slowly increase it's visibility distance stop right before you feel that visibility has become better than that of a real pilot. And there you have it, limited icons that are more real than no icons. That will be as close as you can get to simulating real life pilot visibility in this simulator.

I think I'm being very rational and open minded. I think that the case for limited icons is much stronger than that of no icons.

I hope my points are clearer now.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

To explain, I have nothing against limited icons when they are visible, it's just that AS they are coming into focus I find they DECREASE the visibility of planes in FB.


I will admit that I now have a clearer understanding of what you mean now, as your initial post mislead me slightly. OTOH, you have to understand that my qualm is that limited icons make visibility WORSE for all planes that are not close enough to have them kick in yet.

http://members.rogers.com/teemaz/sig.jpg

BM357_Raven
03-17-2004, 08:59 AM
Started thinking about my post and was flying with someone last night. We were talking about drivers and I mentioned I haven't updated my driver since I got my PC because I was afraid that I might mess up what I already have.

See, I've gone from computer savvy to computer dumb over the past several years with XP coming out and I adopted a new found philosophy that if I try to get my PC running better, it will cease to run at all and I will have to reinstall everything...

See how stupid? The only problem is that this seems to hold true for me... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Anyhow, so he's telling me I should update my driver because then I'll be able to run in perfect mode and I'm like huh?

So I uninstalled my old driver and updated to the new one and WO! Everything looks totally different. I ran my PC on a 1600x1200 and things look--well, very impressive. It also seems like I can see better now, but it was late and I didnt check out the lower res's although I did check out the highest one (which chopped off part of my screen--so I backed back down).

I am going to go and re-compare my different resolutions and see what's up..

S~

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My mamma's Harley is bigger than your mamma..

michapma
03-17-2004, 09:14 AM
Snoop, congratulations on helping clear up the advantages of partial icons for me. I think the argument is much clearer now, at least for me.

One of the things that your screenshots make clear about the problems with even partial icons is that they stick off to the side of the aircraft. Consider your screenshots with the limited icons. The aircraft itself is just at the horizon, where it is very difficult to see, as Jetbuff has pointed out. The icon, however, sticks up into the sky. Its contrast is much higher than that which the aircraft itself would have. There are other scenarios where the icons might have better contrast to the background than the aircraft itself. When the aircraft is near or partially obscured by clouds, in the sun or on any border where it is hidden (even in the gunsight FOV) but the icon is visible.

This is also very dependent on the icon transparency. I also want to ask about the settings you've made. Are they typical? Someone else (TooCool, I think) has suggested using 4.5 km as the setting, because that is the distance at which they could distinguish the aircraft in the gunsight FOV. In that case, I would guess the icon is practically opaque at 1 to 2 km, and would stand out much more than the plane itself against a camoflagued background, even in the gunfight FOV.

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ShVAK
03-17-2004, 09:57 AM
Here we go again. For the record, I am a military pilot who has flown all types of aircraft for the past 22 years, including prop planes, combat jets and more recently helicopters. Further, 56th`GHOST currently flies F-16s. Our honorary member, =353=MONROEQ actually flew P-47s and P-51s in WW2.

We fly cockpit-off. Why? Because the in-cockpit play is too visually restrictive from that of real life, regardless of virtual aircraft flown. Although Track IR, Netview and other programs can help remedy this, they can also be viewed as game cheats. Notwithstanding, head, neck and eye movement are much quicker than any keyboard/joystick button and are more easily coordinated. In a real cockpit I can easily bend my head around an impeding canopy spar - something I cannot do in this game. Flying cockpit off grants us this freedom.

Granted, a cockpit off setting is not close to real neither, as some wicked lead angle shots can be obtained and contact with the enemy is easier. Since this is the game, defensive manouvering likewise becomes harder.

Our preference is to kill the icons on any setting, although friendly icons only makes up for a lack of team training and communication procedures. Killing the external views and padlocks would definately help this game becoming "more life-like".

But this is a simulation:
- no G-Forces providing an additional source of spatial orientation,
- little adrenaline nor fear when getting shot at,
- no wake turbulence to contend with when chasing a foe,
- no emergency procedures to contend with when your plane is damaged, and so on.

But it is a real good game! Choose however you want to play - the options are many. But don't slam one group because YOU think that your way is better.


‚"If you want full realism, join the military!‚"Ě

Snoop_Baron
03-17-2004, 10:11 AM
Hi guys,

Just a quick post since I'm at work. Thank you for listening. Jetbuff, I'm glad that cleared things up for you and me.

Regarding icons making things more difficult to see for you that is either phsycological, miss-configured icons, or some sort of visual anomaly that I'm not familiar with.

Here is what I meant about "miss-configured icons". When I said set everything in limited icons to 0.01km I meant everything but dot visibility. This should be left at the default because that is what you get with no icons. If someone hasn't done this then yes visibility would be worse before the icons kick in with limited icons. Otherwize visibility is the same until icons kick in and after that visibility is better than no icons.

s!
Snoop

:FI:Snoop Baron
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BaldieJr
03-17-2004, 10:13 AM
TiR is a cheat? Thats the stupidest concept ever delivered to my desktop.

Tell me why Oleg put TiR support in the freakin game if its a cheat.

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Snoop_Baron
03-17-2004, 10:30 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Pentallion:
Well said Snoop_Baron!!!

BTW, when I said I felt padlock was more real, imo, I wasn't speaking of external padlock. I meant in the pit. But as Snoop said, that is diverging from his original post.

Recon, I do not agree with friendly only icons on. I think you should have the same icons for both sides. Limited icons can have the range set for how far away until the color changes to red or blue. Even set to zero so that it never does.

http://www.simops.com/249th/sigs/Wildcard.jpg <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hi Pentallion thanks m8 http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif. Just for the record I normaly host with internal padlock on not because of realism (that is another debate http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif m8 ) but because I want my friends that like to use it to have it available even if it might make some compromise when it comes to realism. I never feel at any serious disadvantage just using TrackIR and no internal padlock http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif.

s!
Snoop

:FI:Snoop Baron
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LilHorse
03-17-2004, 11:36 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ShVAK:

‚"If you want full realism, join the military!‚"Ě<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

From somebody who was a dumb kid when I was of eligible age (17 or so) I wish I had. Too late now.

michapma
03-18-2004, 02:41 AM
It's been so long since I've used icons regularly, and I never did understand how to properly configure them. Is there anywhere to read up on it? I remember in IL-2 there were sometimes little triangles around the planes. In FB I only ever remember seeing text. IMO the triangles are much better than the text, see my last post. Are there triangles in FB? Is it possible to have just them and no text?

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SJG1_Therr
03-18-2004, 03:39 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WUAF_Badsight:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BM357_Raven:

I dont think the first flight of 30 minutes tells you a lot about what it was like to be a fighter pilot.. Do you? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

_WAAAAY OFF TOPIC_

we are discussing VISIBILITY


& yes the full real crowd seem to me to be MORE snobbish than the n00bie-Wonder-n00bie-Woman-n00bie-View-n00bie settings players

i dont mind any settings at all but Cockpit Off is for the AFJ squad & other n00bies<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Badsight http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif sure it is for n00bies http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif i start to play in Sturmovik with icons, no pit, externals, and so on.... but after that i start to fly on hosts with no icon, pit on, and still more harder settings.....
and?
and ... not all of us can buy TrackIR (in Poland cost is 70% of minimum salary - sure poor ppl can simple stop playinghttp://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
no all of us have very good macjines with res 1200*1600 - solution is quite simple http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif stop playinghttp://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
some of us have problems with eye _ solution - stop playinghttp://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
and if we stop playing due to our poor possibilities - who will fly on VEF VOW missions ? 100 ppl with the best machines?

it is discussion only about how we can improve this game for ALL, am I right??? for all Friend http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

S!

Fly or die !!!!!

Commanding Officer
Sonderkomando Jagdgeschwader 1

Rajvosa
03-18-2004, 03:47 AM
My dearest of all friends! (note the sarcasm here!)

I DON'T CARE how you are playing this little game! I don't care if your wifes shave their p*****s or not, either. Play the game at what ever settings you like, as long as you are having fun.

Regards,

Jasko

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"I've already got a female to worry about. Her name is the Enterprise." - James T. Kirk

arcadeace
03-18-2004, 04:06 AM
Oh my. Its a good thing Ivan isn't here http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif