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View Full Version : Air combat tatics in IL2AEP #1



BM357_ZoD
03-17-2004, 07:55 AM
i would like to start several of these threads to help people on the community like my self that have no idea what is "suposed" to be going on in a dog fight. I am a purely instinctive pilot witch dose present some problems in the defensive role but works ok when on the offensive,but anyway here we go.

the first scenario i would like to discuss is tatics/theories when flying a P-38L and J VS the AM6"zero series of aircraft tatics for both pilots in an offensive and defensive role would be what im shooting for

First off my general impression of the relative performance of the 2 AC in IL2AEP is:
P-38 has the advantage in low speed acceleration,top speed and high speed roll rate,and in some high speed scenarios when using the dive brake it could have a slight advantage in turn but only for a short time and at the exspense of a lot of speed

the zero would have the advantage in turn rate, roll rate, with the advantage in roll decreasing as speed rise's,and i belive the zero has a advantage in climb rate.

so it seems to me the object of the P-38 pilot would be to mantain any E advantage over the zero and the zero pilot should try to make the 38 slow down or commit to some turns and turn the fight in to a TnB style of dog fight,but this is where my knowledge ends. How should the 2 pilots go about accomplishing their goals in this dogfight?

Hoppfully we'll get some good discussion http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

All kneel to ZoD
http://bm357.com/

[This message was edited by BM357_ZoD on Wed March 17 2004 at 07:04 AM.]

BM357_ZoD
03-17-2004, 07:55 AM
i would like to start several of these threads to help people on the community like my self that have no idea what is "suposed" to be going on in a dog fight. I am a purely instinctive pilot witch dose present some problems in the defensive role but works ok when on the offensive,but anyway here we go.

the first scenario i would like to discuss is tatics/theories when flying a P-38L and J VS the AM6"zero series of aircraft tatics for both pilots in an offensive and defensive role would be what im shooting for

First off my general impression of the relative performance of the 2 AC in IL2AEP is:
P-38 has the advantage in low speed acceleration,top speed and high speed roll rate,and in some high speed scenarios when using the dive brake it could have a slight advantage in turn but only for a short time and at the exspense of a lot of speed

the zero would have the advantage in turn rate, roll rate, with the advantage in roll decreasing as speed rise's,and i belive the zero has a advantage in climb rate.

so it seems to me the object of the P-38 pilot would be to mantain any E advantage over the zero and the zero pilot should try to make the 38 slow down or commit to some turns and turn the fight in to a TnB style of dog fight,but this is where my knowledge ends. How should the 2 pilots go about accomplishing their goals in this dogfight?

Hoppfully we'll get some good discussion http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

All kneel to ZoD
http://bm357.com/

[This message was edited by BM357_ZoD on Wed March 17 2004 at 07:04 AM.]

BSS_Goat
03-17-2004, 08:28 AM
Rhett69 <--------walks up sits down next to ZoD

BM357_ZoD
03-17-2004, 08:44 AM
Whats up ^

All kneel to ZoD
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BSS_Goat
03-17-2004, 08:51 AM
Not much, I'm interested in the p38. Just waiting for someone smarter than me to tell me how to dominate the skies w/ it.

Thats all.

BM357_ZoD
03-17-2004, 08:56 AM
two words flaps and dive brakehttp://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif(o and speed)

All kneel to ZoD
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Jetbuff
03-17-2004, 08:59 AM
Not an expert by any means, but, flying LW planes against much better turning opponents I've been faced with this ordeal since the first days of IL-2. Oddly enough, despite the differences in performance, and therefore, objectives, both the zero and P-38 pilot would benefit from team-tactics, discipline and patience - lots of it!

P-38 pilots would want to attack from altitude and maintain a high speed throughout their attack(s) - slash, take your shot, get out of there. The zero pilot(s), OTOH, would be looking to deny/complicate the shot by turning hard into their opponent(s) as they close but not attempt to follow a disengaging P-38 until the E-advantage deteriorates which it eventually will. To avoid this eventual parity of E-states, the P-38 pilots should try to impose a hard-deck in terms of E after which they will dive away (literally RUN away) and come back later when they have re-established their advantage.

As I said in the opening remark though, I am not an expert, so take my advice with a grain of salt.

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BM357_ZoD
03-17-2004, 09:07 AM
ok so what could the zero do to foce the P-38 to slow or bleed off energy? and on the other hand what could the 38 do to should he losse some E and finds him self on the defensive??

All kneel to ZoD
http://bm357.com/

JG14_Josf
03-17-2004, 09:39 AM
Get "Fighter Combat" by Robert Shaw and read it.

You will find in that book a very detailed description of just how to employ manuevering tactics for that plane match-up.

The one thing that may not apply due to limitation or errors in the flight model of the game has to do with energy manueverability. In other words the game may not reproduce the proper characteristics associated with the relative rate of energy loss due to comparative maneuvering. Put another way the game may have one plane making very hard turns against another plane making shallow turns yet the hard turning plane maintains more energy during the fight.
If this is the case, in this new patch, with that particual plane match-up then some of the maneuvers described in Shaw's book may not work; such as sustained turns, rolling scissors, and the diving extension/pitch back.
Regardless of the relative energy maneuvering the game has modeled, and even if both planes have the same rate of energy loss associated with G load the faster plane is going to be able to command the fight as long as the faster plane remains faster.

The faster plane can choose when to fight, unless the faster plane is caught low and slow.

It then stands to reason that the slower plane should strive to catch the faster plane when the faster plane is low and slow.

The better climbing plane can also command the fight as long as the better climbing plane stays above the plane with the inferior climb capability.

The better climbing plane can choose when to fight unless the better climbing plane is caught low and slow.

It stands to reason that the plane with the inferior climb rate should strive to catch the better climbing plane low and slow.

Do you see a pattern?

The better turning plane is in better shape when things do degrade into a low and slow fight.

Nose to nose geometry or turns that minimize separation favor the plane that turns a smaller radius while nose to tail geometry or turns that increase separation favors the plane with the faster turn rate.

Faster planes turn a faster turn rate up to corner velocity and then turn rate slows down again above corner velocity.

Planes with lower corner velocities turn smaller radius turns.

The element of surprise is a significant advantage unless your the one being surprised.

HARD_Sarge
03-17-2004, 09:43 AM
Well the old rule of thumb back in the old days, was never attack a Zero if you not pulling 300 knots, the Zero couldn't roll or turn above that speed, so if your attack miss and it follows, do a slight aireron turn and the Zero is stuck

hassle is, don't think any Flight sim models that aspect of how planes really worked

(the Zero's were one of the BEST SLOW turn fighters of the war, over 300 Knots, they were dead meat, there controls were frozen)

HARD_Sarge

JG14_Josf
03-17-2004, 10:00 AM
"What could the zero do to force the P-38 to slow or bleed off energy?"

The Zero pilot cannot force the P-38 pilot to do anything unless the Zero pilot is on offense, so the Zero pilot must be at least as high, and or at least parity in possition (foward hemisphere), and or at least as fast. In other words the Zero pilot must have either a possition or an energy advantage and be on offense to force the P-38 pilot into any maneuvering mistake.

The Zero pilot must be in a possition to point the nose at the P-38 and then the P-38 pilot may do something stupid.

Sustained turn, rolling scissors, and diving extension/pitch back are good solutions for luring an opponent into an inferior possition but these maneuvers require the opponent to make mistakes.

The plane with more energy and better possition will have all the cards.

The plane with better energy maneuverability will be able to hold onto those cards longer.

Maneuvers that are used to increase an energy advantage, like the sustained turn technique will not work if the opponent has a much lower energy loss rate during maneuvering.

Fighter Combat
page 141

"Development of effective tactics against dissimilar aircraft is, however, highly dependent on intimate knowledge of all aspects of relative fighter performance..."

XyZspineZyX
03-17-2004, 10:37 AM
Hard Sarge wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Well the old rule of thumb back in the old days, was never attack a Zero if you not pulling 300 knots, the Zero couldn't roll or turn above that speed, so if your attack miss and it follows, do a slight aireron turn and the Zero is stuck

Hassle is, don't think any Flight sim models that aspect of how planes really worked
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You've obviously never tried Target:Rabaul (http://www.targetware.net). You fly a Zero there, you experience the difference in handling and "maneuverability" with speed changes.... in spades!!

By the way, part of your description there is NOT true...the Zero can still turn well above 300 knots, but when you factor in the loss of roll and the incredible inertia, it gets incredibly hard to handle. It still gets around the corner, but if you have to add any vertical component to get guns on target you'll keep finding enemy planes tantalizingly close, but outside your gunsight at close range, and you can't do a darned thing about it.

Incidentally, Targetware is about to introduce the P-38 to the plane list, so we'll get to really delve into this.

But, the same principles hold true when fighting P-39/P-400s, P-40s, even F4Fs. The Zero is a terror one on one, and in low speed scraps...but it can be handled much easier at high speed, or when "tag teams" and "Thach Weave" techniques are used.

Come on over and check it out...here you'll see some real flight modeling.

Oh, one word of caution... otto gunners are in a period of development and transition and are even worse than they are in here (but, it's not going to stay that way indefinitely). Just so you are warned...

BaldieJr
03-17-2004, 10:40 AM
THATS the problem with lots of players!

The only way to force another player to do anything is to have your guns pointed at him. There is no other way to force anything (except overshoots, which is just another word for "I've lost unless this guy in my 6 is dumb/blind/on the phone".

One thing that "Fighter Combat" drives home is the fact that you must be an aggressive fighter if you plan to win.

http://www.fighterjerks.com/churchsign.jpg

LilHorse
03-17-2004, 11:50 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BM357_ZoD:
ok so what could the zero do to foce the P-38 to slow or bleed off energy?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nothing if the P-38 pilot is disciplined. The BnZ a/c if flown well will determine the terms of the fight.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BM357_ZoD:
and on the other hand what could the 38 do to should he losse some E and finds him self on the defensive??
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

For the most part he'd be S.O.L. Get help if you can. Otherwise, go balls to the wall and try to outrun him. Without him tagging you that is.

BM357_ZoD
03-17-2004, 11:52 AM
Anyone got and exsperiance's with this plane match up in IL2AEP preferably online,as to help others understand what to and not to do in certian cercumstances?

The other day i was batteling with a Zero and trying to keep my speed up and finaly i got fustrated and poped the dive brake when going in to a diving turn to get a shot on him i almost blacked out,but i missed him and suddenly found myself going a lot slower than i thought i would after the turn,suddenly i found my self on the defensive with not enuf speed to getaway i tried climbing a way hopping the power of the 2 engians would help me stay aloft longer and he would stall but this only got me shot up a little then dove but didnt seam to gain enuf speed to escape,luckly he ran out of ammo and i survived the incedent. So what can we get out of this, well dont use the dive brake to turn with the zero unless u kill him. So i would advise aganst using that tatic unless absolutly nessasary. Also any thing some one could offer that i could have done to getaway or get back on the offensive in that situation?

All kneel to ZoD
http://bm357.com/

geetarman
03-17-2004, 12:29 PM
I think the comments we are seeing here are an accurate restatement of what generally occurred in RL over the SWP. P-38 pilots tried to attack with altitude, go through a gun pass and then fly away at greater speed before climbing, turning and staring again. When suprised, they would split-s and dive, gaining speed to, basically, run away.

They did not want to dogfight and Zero or Oscar! FB also shows this is not a very smart thing to do in a 38.

Problem is, on the DF servers, every one turns, loops, Split-S's, etc., all in a relatively confined space without using team tactics. Not an advantageous for ANY American WWII fighter plane.

I now try to use the 38 properly. Get less kills, get called a "runner" or whatever. But, at least I'm not getting my rear shot off as easily by the guys flying Franks, Zeros, LA's and Yaks!

BM357_Raven
03-17-2004, 02:56 PM
I have Shaw's book, too, btw, ZoD. So if you want I would be happy to read you the passage over comms.. Fireside Chat?

With Energy fighters, it's a good idea to have a wingman, I believe. In a plane that is not much of an angles fighter, it is generally unwise to bleed your speed.

If you do take the gamble, it had better be for very good reason. This is where the wingman comes in handy as he can fly cover overhead, watching for bandits and helping to drive at the bandit should you fall off..

With enough momentum, you will generally be the better climbing plane, btw.. When you lose speed, the tables turn more in favor of the better climber..

Stiglr brings up the Thatch..also a good point.

When asked "What can the zero do to force the P-38 to slow down?" you got the answer of "nothing for the undisciplined P-38 pilot."

The great thing is that a lot of P-38 pilots will fall for the trick. Furthermore, if you can make it seem acheivable for them to get a bite, even some of the smarter pilots might follow you through one-too-many turns to the deck and ooops.. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Lemme have a go with you the next time you do the 38 vs zeke.. Especially when there's two of us, things should shape up. If you are alone and get impatient the zeke can really hurt ya.

S~

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Jetbuff
03-17-2004, 03:17 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by geetarman:
Problem is, on the DF servers, every one turns, loops, Split-S's, etc., all in a relatively confined space without using team tactics. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Exactly! The problem with a sim in general is that the objective is to kill your opponent. There are rarely any other real objectives like denying air space or attrition. It's better in coops but still, few are those who give 2-cents about their virtual lives. When you do, you find that realistic tactics are the only way to go. In such cases turning and burning, even in a TnB plane, is not advisable. You want E, SA, patience and lots of friends! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

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BM357_ZoD
03-17-2004, 04:34 PM
i was hopping for a lot of actuall exsperances where something did or did not work not to help just me but all 38 and zero pilots,personaly i chose to do the 38 VS zero first because i love the 38 and have the most trouble when confronted with a zero but like i said id like to do several of these threads and as a full switch pilot tatics that dont involove externals or thing not found in a full switch server would be apreciated but any thing that would help anyone at any settings is cool that what i started this for to help me and others gain a better understanding of what they should do and what they are doning wrong/right.

All kneel to ZoD
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BM357_Raven
03-17-2004, 04:48 PM
Jetbuff wrote:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
When you do, you find that realistic tactics are the only way to go. In such cases turning and burning, even in a TnB plane, is not advisable. You want E, SA, patience and lots of friends!
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

zactly......I agree 100%..

And btw I was a serious TnB pilot once upon the time. And I could hang with the most slippery TnB's out there.

And I will always a TnB fighter, but now only as a last resort... At least that's what I try to practice; patience and good judgement... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

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