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View Full Version : Bad AI, the real immersion killer.



munnst
09-28-2004, 07:51 AM
First of all I appreciate that coding AI is a very difficult task.
However is it possible to make a few enhancements to improve this fine sim, perhaps making the AI dumber to appear smarter.

I'll explain.
The real immersion killer for me while playing Il2 FB is, while flying as leader, having to watch my flight peal off and attack some distant BVR target without waiting for my command. Not only does this ruin my attack but it in most cases places my team in a worse position then was necessary.

How about, when flying as lead, making your AI flight become dumb and simply keep formation until ordered, or until such time as they are directly threatend. This forced formation would be very beneficial to PF where you will want to circle the carrier until your flight are all aboard before heading off to target. Handy for preventing your flight engaging a worthless target when you know those TBM's are inbound. I would also like some form of forced rejoin preventing the inevitable circling-in-the-danger-zone-until-killed stupid AI.

This kind of behaviour worked quite well on F15 eagle by Janes.

Dog.

munnst
09-28-2004, 07:51 AM
First of all I appreciate that coding AI is a very difficult task.
However is it possible to make a few enhancements to improve this fine sim, perhaps making the AI dumber to appear smarter.

I'll explain.
The real immersion killer for me while playing Il2 FB is, while flying as leader, having to watch my flight peal off and attack some distant BVR target without waiting for my command. Not only does this ruin my attack but it in most cases places my team in a worse position then was necessary.

How about, when flying as lead, making your AI flight become dumb and simply keep formation until ordered, or until such time as they are directly threatend. This forced formation would be very beneficial to PF where you will want to circle the carrier until your flight are all aboard before heading off to target. Handy for preventing your flight engaging a worthless target when you know those TBM's are inbound. I would also like some form of forced rejoin preventing the inevitable circling-in-the-danger-zone-until-killed stupid AI.

This kind of behaviour worked quite well on F15 eagle by Janes.

Dog.

carguy_
09-28-2004, 08:14 AM
My idea of AI is somewhat different.AI should not be so accurate nor should it see through clouds nor should it perform 10G maneuvers nor should it deny real aircraft specs.

Currently the best way to avoid this all is...setting AI on average.And not only from an onliner POV.I had flown several offline campaigns and super ufo sniper AI pushed me off as soon as I could access the net.

AI average,why?

1.AI gunners are too accurate in long range engagements.Shooting an enemy fighter is VERY difficult.Effective range is about 50-70m but Ace gunners easily turn you into scrap from 200m.Turning AI on average would deny it from performing like snipers in a MOVING bomber and average AI will hit a fighter from 70m be sure.

2.AI can see through clouds and denies planes specs like diving top speed or maneuverability.This is too hard to overcome technically nowadays.What can you do when you have an AI spit on yer six?No options unless you can outturn it.So assume that average AI will not snipe you in clouds because either it has too little skils to follow you or it can`t hit you.Besides average AI play the role of unexperienced pilots which was a normal thing in the war.Even average AI is good enought to bring a human n00b down so what`s the problem?

3.Setting AI on average puts allied vs axis AI at about the same chance of winning because allied AI doesn`t exploit T&B style of flying thus the advantage realative to completely wrong modeled AI axis side is very small.


Many AI bugs had been worked upon and fixed so not much bugs to spoil the game completely.


My points stated above is also a direct message to online wars` admins.

Jason Bourne
09-28-2004, 08:30 AM
What i really want to see fixed is the AIs current ability to see were you are no matter what. im sure every one has at one point be coming up from under an enemy figher that didnt know you were there, only to have it start manuevering and jinking when you get to around .27km from them. THAT is the one problem i want fixed.

munnst
09-28-2004, 08:34 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jason Bourne:
What i really want to see fixed is the AIs current ability to see were you are no matter what. im sure every one has at one point be coming up from under an enemy figher that didnt know you were there, only to have it start manuevering and jinking when you get to around .27km from them. THAT is the one problem i want fixed. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Maybe that's just the AI checking his blind spot. I think on occasion you can sneak up on the AI but it depends on his skill and probably some random factor.

Wseivelod
09-28-2004, 09:41 AM
does AI still have unlimited ammo?

avimimus
09-28-2004, 11:29 AM
This will porbably be seen as the worst weakness of Il-2 when people look back in a few years. I remember I first realised it when Starshoy pointed it out to me.

The AI is too agressive. It is also always the same (for the squandron and skill level) and it doesn't make tactical decisions or work in groups well. This is largely due to the fact that Il-2 was written around the year 2000 as an Il-2 only sim and thay had to simplify the AI to work with 300mhz machines.

The critical issue though is agreesion.
The AI will not retreate, it will not get discouraged, it will not go home.

This leads to very high casualties on both sides. In real life most battles had a lot of their aircraft retreat to safer areas or get separated and head home.

This is not possible with the current AI.
I wish it were.

sugaki
09-28-2004, 11:41 AM
AI's not as good as some older Pacific war games--I have fond memories of sneaking up to unsuspecting airplanes in 1942 Pacific Air War and ripping them to shreds (that game rocked). This game, you could be behind and under the plane and the enemy would still miraculously see you.

Aggressive AI's a great point--they don't let up till they die, whereas in real life green Allied pilots would zoom away when things got very hairy (slower Japanese planes didn't have that luxury).

I remember FW-190s turning with me in low altittude when I was in a La-7 and being bewildered. Average AI setting it is.

Howie A
09-28-2004, 01:44 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by munnst:
The real immersion killer for me while playing Il2 FB is, while flying as leader, having to watch my flight peal off and attack some distant BVR target without waiting for my command. Not only does this ruin my attack but it in most cases places my team in a worse position then was necessary.

How about, when flying as lead, making your AI flight become dumb and simply keep formation until ordered, or until such time as they are directly threatend. This forced formation would be very beneficial to PF where you will want to circle the carrier until your flight are all aboard before heading off to target. Handy for preventing your flight engaging a worthless target when you know those TBM's are inbound. I would also like some form of forced rejoin preventing the inevitable circling-in-the-danger-zone-until-killed stupid AI.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

this doesn't seem too complex for the designers to implement, i would think for PF, and it would give more immersion http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by carguy:
1.AI gunners are too accurate in long range engagements.Shooting an enemy fighter is VERY difficult.Effective range is about 50-70m but Ace gunners easily turn you into scrap from 200m.Turning AI on average would deny it from performing like snipers in a MOVING bomber and average AI will hit a fighter from 70m be sure.

2.AI can see through clouds and denies planes specs like diving top speed or maneuverability.This is too hard to overcome technically nowadays.What can you do when you have an AI spit on yer six?No options unless you can outturn it.So assume that average AI will not snipe you in clouds because either it has too little skils to follow you or it can`t hit you.Besides average AI play the role of unexperienced pilots which was a normal thing in the war.Even average AI is good enought to bring a human n00b down so what`s the problem?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think this is more difficult but a very worthwhile goal (if not necessary) for BoB

VW-IceFire
09-28-2004, 04:42 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Wseivelod:
does AI still have unlimited ammo? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Never did...not even in the IL2 Demo. Infact, I would use tail slides and they couldn't hit me back then at all...wait till their ammo was gone and hit them as they ran.

BfHeFwMe
09-28-2004, 05:18 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by munnst:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jason Bourne:
What i really want to see fixed is the AIs current ability to see were you are no matter what. im sure every one has at one point be coming up from under an enemy figher that didnt know you were there, only to have it start manuevering and jinking when you get to around .27km from them. THAT is the one problem i want fixed. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Maybe that's just the AI checking his blind spot. I think on occasion you can sneak up on the AI but it depends on his skill and probably some random factor. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually it depends on what you set your gun convergence distance too. Set it at least 50 meters short of where you shoot from normally when going up against AI, they also break when your trigger button is tripped. You still have a reasonable chance of hitting them in the initial burst this way if you get within 300m. Otherwise expect them to inhale some crack once you get within convergence settings.

MK2aw
09-28-2004, 10:03 PM
I have had plenty of enemey planes break off. I am not sure what you are saying about the retreating part.

I have had to chase planes half way across the map to nail them as they head back to their territory.

Mk2aw