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kimi_
03-08-2006, 12:02 PM
In an FPS game like this, how important are characters to you in the two following scenarios:

1. When there is a character precedent that can be followed, like in the Rainbow Six books.

2. When there is nothing previously written about the characters, like in Ghost Recon.

I'm curious what your stance is on this compared to all other parts of the game.

NEFARIOC
03-08-2006, 01:24 PM
I could care less...I'm a multiplayer only kinda guy.

drunkrepublican
03-08-2006, 02:32 PM
It really depends on how strong the story is.

doubleTAP5.56mm
03-08-2006, 03:05 PM
Kimi, in either scenario what I do care about is characters' unique skills and specialties, but in no way do I care about their individual personality quirks, comments, and stuff like that.
Hollywood dialog, i.e. "come on guys yeah lets GET 'EM!", "you want some of this?" is a huge annoyance. Good example of what me thinks is appropriate and interesting are the R6 pc characters, everything from the menu details to the realistic in game dialog. OGR team coms and dialog are outstanding as well.
I also hate the idea of developing a rookie into an elite CT operator. Come on these men and women are recruted from the worlds elite SF aren't they? (Not that this has been incorporated into R6 yet, but for future referense.)
Not sure if I answered your exactly.

Edit: Oh, I also don't care if the story is, well, a story or not. For all I care the game could be 12 or so completely unrelated missions like SWAT. In fact I'd prefer that instead of chasing a super evil villian around the world, or worse, rescuing my ******* sniper from said super villian. ".....This time it's personal". Give me a break.

kimi_
03-08-2006, 03:16 PM
So theoretically if you have the ability to choose from different teams in loadout, you'd want to be able to pick them based on the fact that they can do different things...and to have this be a noticable difference?

doubleTAP5.56mm
03-08-2006, 03:17 PM
Originally posted by NEFARIOC:
I could care less...I'm a multiplayer only kinda guy.
I think it's "I couldn't care less", and I agree kind of.

doubleTAP5.56mm
03-08-2006, 03:25 PM
Originally posted by kimi_:
So theoretically if you have the ability to choose from different teams in loadout, you'd want to be able to pick them based on the fact that they can do different things...and to have this be a noticable difference?

Yes.
And I can't stress enough how much I like the RvS setup. The way individual members' skills increase, yet no one starts out a noob. And the way you can lose members in action.
And loading them out individually is a must.

hangtime8705
03-08-2006, 03:54 PM
Option 1 mos def. I always like a game with substance, especially in the storyline. I think dynamic, real human characters adds an element of realism to the game apart from realisitc room clearing and equipment. There is more to a great story than firefights. I want this game to incorporate human characters with a real story to add to the tension and flow of the game's storyline.

doubleTAP5.56mm
03-08-2006, 04:23 PM
Originally posted by hangtime8705:
Option 1 mos def. I always like a game with substance, especially in the storyline. I think dynamic, real human characters adds an element of realism to the game apart from realisitc room clearing and equipment. There is more to a great story than firefights. I want this game to incorporate human characters with a real story to add to the tension and flow of the game's storyline.
What people don't realize is the more "storyline" you add to the game the less replay value it has. Or, more specifically, the fewer ways to approach the missions you get. Before you urgue, just think about it first. If you feel you need that storyline for tension and flow, what happens when you divert from the story's suggested means of mission execution? The less storyline there is, the greater the "sandbox" factor becomes. I want to be able to go thru the missions in any number of ways, without feeling like I'm abandoning any established course of action.
But, if the story, however in depth, is limited to mission intros, and it doesn't permeate the gameplay, then that would be ok.

As for the "dynamic" characters, fine, as long as they do not in any way behave unlike CT operatives. These people are not Tom Cruise and Vin Diesel; together they're a single, focused, no-nonsense machine. Their communications are brief and direct, mission oriented. Not joking, squabling, complaining, cheering, etc.

Sorry, don't mean to sound like I'm lecturing; just that GR2 and the console R6 have made me ....... grouchy? lol

hangtime8705
03-08-2006, 04:26 PM
Oh yeah, like u said man, do not interrupt gameplay. Cutscenes b4 the mission however should be where the storyline takes prominence. In no way should they take away from the gaming experience.

TAW_Fang
03-08-2006, 07:29 PM
Originally posted by kimi_:
So theoretically if you have the ability to choose from different teams in loadout, you'd want to be able to pick them based on the fact that they can do different things...and to have this be a noticable difference?

In a word: yes. In my opinion, the personalities of the different characters is not that important, it's their skills and proficiciency with those skills that's important to me in a game. I, too, like the RvS way of doing it where you start off elite and get a little better with each successful mission. On the other hand, I didn't like the way GR did it where you could be absolutely **** with a weapon and get better as the storyline went on--as said in a previous post, you're supposed to be elite to be a member of these teams.

chadeboi479
03-08-2006, 09:00 PM
I think characters and character personality are pretty good elements to include in this game. Sure, I want Rainbow Six: Vegas to primarily focus on tense, realistic, and tactical counterterrorism gameplay, but having interesting characters in the form of my fellow Rainbow operatives would be a very welcome bonus. I'd love to have my teammates express things through dialogue and such, assuming it's not corny dialogue, because it just serves to immerse me even further into the environment.

doubleTAP5.56mm
03-08-2006, 10:36 PM
Originally posted by chadeboi479:
..... I'd love to have my teammates express things through dialogue and such, assuming it's not corny dialogue, because it just serves to immerse me even further into the environment.
Whether the dialog is corny or ultra cool, I don't want it if it's not realistic. By realistic I mean whatever CT ops say and do in real life. And I'm certain everything they say when they're on the clock is directly mission related and the terminology is tactical, not hollywood.
And you may think unique personality type dialog is immersive, the FIRST time thru the mission, but what about the next 50 times thru, where you have to listen to the same remarks, right on cue?
No thanx.

TH3Hammer
03-09-2006, 01:04 AM
In games like "Prince of Persia" and "Beyond Good and Evil," it's extremely important. In this game... not very important at all to me. A little bit of background info may be cool, but I don't really need to see the character "develop." I just want to shoot things and blow things up, but not in a Rainbow Six: Letdown sort of way.

Ghost Dog 3
03-13-2006, 06:13 AM
Well if I hear good reviews from those who rent it then yes I wish it is compatible.
Originally posted by doubleTAP5.56mm:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by chadeboi479:
..... I'd love to have my teammates express things through dialogue and such, assuming it's not corny dialogue, because it just serves to immerse me even further into the environment.
Whether the dialog is corny or ultra cool, I don't want it if it's not realistic. By realistic I mean whatever CT ops say and do in real life. And I'm certain everything they say when they're on the clock is directly mission related and the terminology is tactical, not hollywood.
And you may think unique personality type dialog is immersive, the FIRST time thru the mission, but what about the next 50 times thru, where you have to listen to the same remarks, right on cue?
No thanx. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Same here to both of the quote.I do like when they have a background and that the mission has a story to it but I don't like having the characters background annoy me when I play.I didn't like when they were always saying childish stuff "What did you expect from perfection.... He he ya riiight" >http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif and why do they always talk when your not moving them,a specially Yacoby always screaming.

They want to talk then let them in the movies or in the beginning but let them shut the **** up!

Ghost Dog 3
03-13-2006, 06:16 AM
Originally posted by doubleTAP5.56mm:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by chadeboi479:
..... I'd love to have my teammates express things through dialogue and such, assuming it's not corny dialogue, because it just serves to immerse me even further into the environment.
Whether the dialog is corny or ultra cool, I don't want it if it's not realistic. By realistic I mean whatever CT ops say and do in real life. And I'm certain everything they say when they're on the clock is directly mission related and the terminology is tactical, not hollywood.
And you may think unique personality type dialog is immersive, the FIRST time thru the mission, but what about the next 50 times thru, where you have to listen to the same remarks, right on cue?
No thanx. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Same here to both of the quote.I do like when they have a background and that the mission has a story to it but I don't like having the characters background annoy me when I play.I didn't like when they were always saying childish stuff "What did you expect from perfection.... He he ya riiight" >http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif and why do they always talk when your not moving them,a specially Yacoby always screaming.

They want to talk then let them in the movies or in the beginning but let them shut up tru the game.

I don't let them follow me cause they get shot and I get less points.

KungFu_CIA
03-15-2006, 08:19 AM
One of the things I stressed in the R6 Council forms was how OFFENSIVE some of the dialogue was in Lockdown because it was childish, pre-teen "machismo/Hollywood" garbage that doesn't belong in a game about professional counter-terrorism operatives.

Granted, Lockdown had a lot more failings, but the dialogue is what really irked me because I found it disrespectful given the serious/adult nature the past R6 games have tried to portray -- Even in a video game, killing someone should not be trivialized and celebrated like the cheesy voice acting in LD often did -- And also, just unrealistic like most of you have said in the only communications would be directly mission related, terse and to the point.

My goal for the sound designers, voice actors and others involved was to shoot for if a real CT Operator were to sit down and play the game, even HE would comment on how realistic and authentic it sounds. To me, that is what real immersion should be.

Have any of you played America's Army: Rise of a Soldier for Xbox?

This has scripted SP missions... BUT the dialogue is real world, true-to-life Army ops and terminology to where it treats the player as an adult -- no matter how old they may be -- And thereby, treats the subject matter (combat) with the same respect and immerses the player even more than some cheesy "characterization" because as I said, in combat, you aren't making wise-cracks or BS comments. You are trying to accomplish the objective(s) without getting you, or your fellow soldiers heads blown off even if hundreds of rounds are wizzing by only inches from your heads! This is what being a professional soldier is all about and I want that put back in R6.

Yen Lo
03-15-2006, 08:36 AM
Wow who knew Kimi had such deep thoughts running around in her head. <- LOL jkin of course.
Seriously, for me at least none at all. Really can you name 1 book youve read say 50 times? Or a movie youve seen 50 times, after awhile they all get old. The same with video games. The dialoge would get repetitious esp after just a few plays, cause frankly most of stuff Ubi puts out isnt that deeep. Look what they choose for Lockdown, the console versions were awful.
Unless theres more/better guns and maps I wont be buying it.

TH3Hammer
03-15-2006, 10:27 AM
My goal for the sound designers, voice actors and others involved was to shoot for if a real CT Operator were to sit down and play the game, even HE would comment on how realistic and authentic it sounds. To me, that is what real immersion should be.

I'm hoping this gets noticed by the devs and they actually take it into consideration. "Authentic dialogue based on feedback from real-life CT teams" will help sell more copies than "Scripted by George Lucas" for this type of game.

Goliath.Ubi.Dev
03-15-2006, 12:44 PM
Purely for the sake of argument, Redstorm had adicussion with a member of a special forces team and he said that people on the field would be much more likely to say Get the **** out of here then Retreat, pull back or anything clear.

Not to say that were doing that but keep in mind that real soldiers go for whats clear to them under stress, people no matter how trained do react differently under extreme situations.

Something to keep in mind.

kimi_
03-15-2006, 12:51 PM
So Goliath, are you saying realistic would be the Rainbow guys barging into the room and telling standbyers "Get the F out of here!" ? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

My brain's tired, so I need distinct clarification. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

Goliath.Ubi.Dev
03-15-2006, 12:57 PM
Haha no that would be for a different kind of game, i was just saying how realistic doesn't mean necessarily by the book, clean cut all the time.

I still think that Rainbow should be more profesionnal then your average soldier i just thought it was funny. It kind of like when you learn a new language you speak in a way that is very proper and natives think it's funny you speak like that.

I am guessing its the same for soldiers that look at characters speaking directly by the book and go, wow only my CO talks like that yknow?

That's my pointhttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

TH3Hammer
03-15-2006, 01:09 PM
Originally posted by Goliath.Ubi.Dev:
Purely for the sake of argument, Redstorm had adicussion with a member of a special forces team and he said that people on the field would be much more likely to say Get the **** out of here then Retreat, pull back or anything clear.

Not to say that were doing that but keep in mind that real soldiers go for whats clear to them under stress, people no matter how trained do react differently under extreme situations.

Something to keep in mind.

I agree with you completely on that. It's just that when we see descriptions about characters like "cliche" and "Hollywood," we start to worry. I wouldn't want to see robotic characters that only spouted commands and acknowledgements either. I guess it's hard to find the right balance, but we're hoping you can pull it off.

kimi_
03-15-2006, 01:29 PM
haha ok....but that might actually be kinda cool. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

Defuser
03-15-2006, 01:43 PM
What people want is something OTHER than hollywood, cliched nonsense that no soldier would EVER say. Which is what we got with Lockdown. If it at least SOUNDS realistic/authentic, then I doubt anybody would have a problem with it. Above all, it has to succeed in maintaining immersion - that the enviornment you are in is believably real, and that the operators you are with are similarly as real.

It's relatively well-known that the dialogue of special forces can be a bit 'terse' from time to time. Such as in the 1980 Iranian Embassy siege, the SAS, by all accounts, were not very
'polite' in getting the hostages out of the building. In other words they virtually threw them down the stairs and screamed "Get the **** down those stairs!". But these are only situations where the operatives are under duress to ensure that the action is carried out quickly. Such as your retreating example, Goliath - to say that people don't always say "Retreat!" is utterly true because the operatives are quite obviously under much duress in such a situation and such an order is no more or less realistic in THAT situation. Clear and simple, right? What that does not mean is that it gives you carte blanche in having operatives say "Haha, got him!" when they down a tango or other such nonsense.

Because an operator might lose his absolute professionalism in a situation where it would be understandable to do so, 5% of the time, such as under heavy fire and taking casualties, it does not mean that they are a swaggering deadeye spouting contrived witticisms for the other 95%!

KungFu_CIA
03-15-2006, 03:46 PM
If a grenade landed five feet from you and your team, of course you are going to yell, "S***!" and dive out of the way...

But well trained, professional operators will also make it perfectly clear what the THREAT is ("GRENADE!") and then just REACT to it, I.E. hit the floor, or turn their backs and cover their faces, etc.

This is what training is. It is ingrained automatic behavioral responses and this is what makes a professional soldier a professional compared to the unorganized, gung-ho fanatic who is holding a room full of unarmed men and women hostage and could potentially blow himself and everyone up out of sheer panic.

For example, a professional infrantry soldier knows to make himself a smaller target when in open terrain by kneeling or even going prone. His squad leader or CO doesn't have to tell him that and expects the soldier to know this if they come under fire.

Likewise, like my example above, if an enemy tosses a frag grenade near your teams position, they automatically hit the deck as to minimize potential damage.

I think there is a disparity between being a professional soldier and being "human".

Soldiers are human beings... But as I said, it is a certain level of "coldness" and "detachment" which allows them to do their jobs, under the most severe of circumstances and survive because they ARE trained professionals and one of the main things they pound into their heads in basic is to keep calm and remember your training and SOP (Standard Operating Procedures).

Also, training isn't just how to take down a room, or diffuse a bomb properly (which is specialty training)... 99.9% of it learning how to COMMUNICATE effectively and efficiently under duress where you have only one shot at making sure your fellow soldiers/team mates know what is going on so you can effecitvely coordinate a couter-attack, rescue those hostages, or even just move from point A to point B while under heavy fire.

Of course, things go wrong and everyone reacts in their own manner... But the main philosophy behind military training is to maintain at least some level of calm and objectiveness because it is those two things which are going to turn that harrowing situation around more than anything...

And it is this professionalism we want to "hear" more of in future R6 games because this is what the original games tried to promote: Realistic, professional operators doing what they do best because they are the best of the best.

Hatchetforce
04-03-2006, 09:41 AM
There have been a few good responses and a few bad ones. When going into a situation such as room clearing, you aren't trying to be witty until things settle down. Communication is kept to a minimum. Your 148 is set to your inter Team freq and you are focused on the task at hand, communications with the guys entering with you, as well as commo with the delivery platform. There are a variety of ways to do this with an insertion platform and it changes based on whether it was vehicle, air, etc. In Iraq, we had the Blackhawks kick to our inter Team freq and monitor. WE ONLY TALKED TO THE BIRD IF WE NEEDED THEM. NO OTHER REASON TO CHIT CHAT.

Special Forces guys are as professional as they come but we do have a smart *** or two among us or in us at one time or another. But there is no room for it when you are geting ready to go into a room full of bad guys. That doesn't mean there are not tension relieving moments. A guy on my ODA and my best friend would always breach and then try to get in front of me when I was in the number 1 position. It was a bit of a running joke because we were both known for being the first guy through the door or window.

You focus is on your job and the first time you have to deal with some hammer head like that smartass female in Lockdown and her complaining would be the last time you have to deal with them. An operator like that would be on the first thing smoking out of the AO.

Comms 99% of the time deal with positions being set, rooms cleared, unknowns bagged and tagged, and Team status, not talking about vaction in Miami.

Still, we are the most irreverant people you will meet. There is no use of sir or **** like that in such a situation. That's the Marines. We had our own nicknames for people, especially our Team Leader. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

<span class="ev_code_RED">BTW Goliath, check your Private Messages. I am under NDA to RSE and sent you some info. </span>

KungFu_CIA
04-03-2006, 11:04 AM
HatchetForce

Nice to hear from someone who has actually BEEN one of the persons this game portrays (Special Forces).

I am also glad to see you may be working with RSE and Black Foot studios http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Your level of expertise and experience is what more games... regardless of platform... Need in my opinion.

Catpuss
04-03-2006, 11:05 AM
I'm happy with either way, it doesn't matter too much in the long run as it often tunrs out to be superfluous to the game play and only makes a difference in cut scenes.

Its how its implemented that is important. Ghost Recon did it well, as did Splinter Cell & RS6.

Lockdown took a decidedly cheezy look at the team. :-)

Real720
04-03-2006, 12:42 PM
Originally posted by Goliath.Ubi.Dev:
Purely for the sake of argument, Redstorm had adicussion with a member of a special forces team and he said that people on the field would be much more likely to say Get the **** out of here then Retreat, pull back or anything clear.

Not to say that were doing that but keep in mind that real soldiers go for whats clear to them under stress, people no matter how trained do react differently under extreme situations.

Something to keep in mind.

Are you sure that he was from a "special" forces team?

Real720
04-03-2006, 12:46 PM
Originally posted by Catpuss:
Lockdown took a decidedly cheezy look at the team. :-)

I couldn't stand Lofquist and the Canadian demolition guy. Lockdown definitely screwed them up! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

Hatchetforce
04-03-2006, 12:51 PM
Originally posted by Real720:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Goliath.Ubi.Dev:
Purely for the sake of argument, Redstorm had adicussion with a member of a special forces team and he said that people on the field would be much more likely to say Get the **** out of here then Retreat, pull back or anything clear.

Not to say that were doing that but keep in mind that real soldiers go for whats clear to them under stress, people no matter how trained do react differently under extreme situations.

Something to keep in mind.

Are you sure that he was from a "special" forces team? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I am not sure who they spoke to, but their are 4 of us from SF units at Ft Bragg that are under NDA to RSE. To address the comment, the vernacular all depends on the situation.

Ghost Dog 3
04-03-2006, 02:32 PM
That he is or not as long as he remembers that I (we) want the old gameplay but improved not changed just improved.

Yen Lo
04-03-2006, 05:23 PM
Hatchetforce:
1. thanks for posting here.
2. Have you ever been close to a real frag grenade going off? If you were, or know someone who was what were the aftereffects of the blast. Obviously, if you were close enough it probably would kill you, but if it didnt wouldnt the balst stun you at least? ringing ears, woosy whatever? Ive been trying to get ubi to understand that if a frag dosent kill you,(cause their enviroments are indestructible) it would still have some measure of stunning you. thank you.

Hatchetforce
04-03-2006, 06:07 PM
A lot of guys have been around one that went off and didn't get a scratch. Blast patterns have so many influencing factors.

We had grenades land near us but we were wearing the Liberator Comms system. This modified Peltor Comtac provides amplified hearing. Think of it as being bionic. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif But the system has a clipper circuit that cuts sounds above a certain decibel so I can hear a whisper at 10 feet but gunfire is cut out. The split second the gunfire ceases, bionic hearing again! This headset also wires into various radios including the 148s we wear. Even if the external sound is cut off, radio comms are continuous. And we don't wear 148s on our back either, because sooner or later you will need to switch channels and counting clicks doesn't work like it does in the movies.

The first time you don't have comms you wonder if you got the clicks right or is there something wrong with the radio so you drag it off your back. That's why we wear them on our waist or chest, so we can see the channel and settings.

Yen Lo
04-03-2006, 06:35 PM
WOW thanks for the reply. Its easy to tell your the real deal.