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View Full Version : after some reading on shauberger i think again my propulsion engine might work



raaaid
02-03-2005, 04:12 PM
somebody mentioned that i should create and make disapear mass to be able to mow in the espace without using reaction and thats more or lees what my engine does ill explain

imagine a hammer thrower that instead of one hammer has two on in each arm, he starts spinning so fast that his mass is neglectable against the huge aparent mass of the hammers

all of the sudden when he is looking at twelve he pulls the left hammer that is pointing at 9 as close to his body as posible, now the center of spin is in the middle of the right arm, then from his nose pointing from 12 till it goes to 9 he is going backwards and to the right and with his nose from 9 to 6 he is going forward and rightwards then when his nose is looking at 6 he straights the left hammer again repeating the operation again you would be advancing towards the right

the trick is to take and to let go one of the hammers in the same half of the spin

Zeus-cat
02-03-2005, 04:31 PM
"His mass is neglectable against the huge apparent mass of the hammers?"

Obviously you are not an engineer. What is this thrower supposed to be made of? If its a person, his arms would rip off under the circumstances you describe. Where do you get the energy to pull one of the weights in toward the center nearly instantaneously? This energy would not be insignificant, it would reguire a tremendous force. Probably less force than to simply prpoel the object along a path using normal means. The mass of the structure would also be considerable to tolerate the huge forces you are tlaking about by spinning these objects and then retracting them and extending them very quickly.

I suggest you go get a book on physics and another on mechanical forces and start reading.

Zeus-cat

cwojackson
02-03-2005, 04:35 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Zeus-cat:
"His mass is neglectable against the huge apparent mass of the hammers?"

Obviously you are not an engineer. What is this thrower supposed to be made of? If its a person, his arms would rip off under the circumstances you describe. Where do you get the energy to pull one of the weights in toward the center nearly instantaneously? This energy would not be insignificant, it would reguire a tremendous force. Probably less force than to simply prpoel the object along a path using normal means. The mass of the structure would also be considerable to tolerate the huge forces you are tlaking about by spinning these objects and then retracting them and extending them very quickly.

I suggest you go get a book on physics and another on mechanical forces and start reading.

Zeus-cat <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>The wife and I saw some female shot putters at the Olympics that might have been able to pull it off.

eddiemac0
02-03-2005, 04:47 PM
Whaaaaat? Raaid, I think you were closest to success with this idea with the revolving cigarettes, but man, I just don't think this can work... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

Chuck_Older
02-03-2005, 04:54 PM
Where does the energy come from to pull the weights in?

Do what they do in real life- prove the concept first.

Unless you make a computer model on a fairly sophisticated bit of software, you're not going to brainstorm this idea out on paper

I'm sorry, but if this is an honest to goodness attempt, try some scientifically oriented forums. When you start telling this to the physicists, let us know

I'll register over there and start talking about planes http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Tully__
02-03-2005, 07:02 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by raaaid:
...some stuff... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No. You're still neglecting the forces required to stop the extended masses when you retract them. The centre of mass of the system still remains unmoved. Using forces between masses you must impart momentum to a mass and release it completly to move your primary object. The centre of mass of the system (primary object plus ejected mass) still remains stationary, but the two (now separate) objects continue to move. This is the ONLY way it will work using conventional physical force.

BSS_Goat
02-03-2005, 07:07 PM
Hold on ...hold on ....I got it you take this hammer right ****cough cough*** and you get some dude right ***snicker snicker*****and he like swings it ****cough cough***like...really fast and stuff****giggle cough****and then ....hold on ****bubbble bubbble bubble cough cough****

BOPrey
02-03-2005, 07:23 PM
raaaid,

It will not work. Proof, if the guy is in space, he can't swing anything without moving in the other direction.

beepboop
02-03-2005, 08:02 PM
Raaaid, I used to have thoughts like this when I was a kid. Before you spend more time on similar ideas, let me impart one of life's great lessons to you:

"Everything simple and great has been thought of"

Let me repeat that one more time, because I know you need to hear it twice:

"Everything simple and great has been thought of"

You are not, repeat NOT, going to discover or invent something that redefines or brilliantly exploits basic (and this is really very basic newtownian motion) physics.

Now don't be too disappointed. I know how it is. You see, I invented the MagLev train when I was 10, and boy was I p1553d when I found out that it had already been thought of. But i'm over it now.

Oilburner_TAW
02-03-2005, 09:04 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by beepboop:
Raaaid, I used to have thoughts like this when I was a kid. Before you spend more time on similar ideas, let me impart one of life's great lessons to you:

"Everything simple and great has been thought of"

Let me repeat that one more time, because I know you need to hear it twice:

"Everything simple and great has been thought of"

You are not, repeat NOT, going to discover or invent something that redefines or brilliantly exploits basic (and this is really very basic newtownian motion) physics.

Now don't be too disappointed. I know how it is. You see, I invented the MagLev train when I was 10, and boy was I p1553d when I found out that it had already been thought of. But i'm over it now. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

lol...When I was 10 or 11 I invented windshield wipers for the rear windows of cars. I still think Subaru copied my brain somehow http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

Treetop64
02-03-2005, 09:11 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by raaaid:
somebody mentioned that i should create and make disapear mass to be able to mow in the espace without using reaction and thats more or lees what my engine does ill explain

imagine a hammer thrower that instead of one hammer has two on in each arm, he starts spinning so fast that his mass is neglectable against the huge aparent mass of the hammers

all of the sudden when he is looking at twelve he pulls the left hammer that is pointing at 9 as close to his body as posible, now the center of spin is in the middle of the right arm, then from his nose pointing from 12 till it goes to 9 he is going backwards and to the right and with his nose from 9 to 6 he is going forward and rightwards then when his nose is looking at 6 he straights the left hammer again repeating the operation again you would be advancing towards the right

the trick is to take and to let go one of the hammers in the same half of the spin <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Two words, buddy:
"Frictional Losses"

Besides, your idea sounds idiotic...

Treetop

Treetop64
02-03-2005, 09:16 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BSS_Goat:
Hold on ...hold on ....I got it you take this hammer right ****cough cough*** and you get some dude right ***snicker snicker*****and he like swings it ****cough cough***like...really fast and stuff****giggle cough****and then ....hold on ****bubbble bubbble bubble cough cough**** <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

Sessyman
02-03-2005, 09:23 PM
Some people have the craziest ideas...

I'm not even sure i Completely understand it...but i don't think it would work

COLD FUSION FIRST!

Mjollnir111675
02-04-2005, 12:45 AM
yeah all of you have any better ideas?
Not being aggressive but the man atleast has an idea.
Yep and my "laser spark plugs" were too ******ed ,too abstract and non feasible as well huh?
Man, Raaaid, dont let these educated idiots get ya down!!
Keep pressin forward with yer idea!!
Nothing has ever been done without the naysayers!!
Example: Two brothers Wright!!
Without them we would not be together today!!
Move forward my friend!!
The better mousetrap has not been invented yet cuz nobody thinks it should be improved!!

HEY 1-C:PIMP Raaaids propulsion unit!! Who knows it could be the engine for Blow On Bawls!!

BSS_Goat
02-04-2005, 05:26 AM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mjollnir111675:
Man, Raaaid, dont let these educated idiots get ya down!![QUOTE]

WHO YOU CALLING EDUCATED......PUNK. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

DuxCorvan
02-04-2005, 05:59 AM
I think you should try and build a prototype. Then make a movie with the first tests. If it works, well, you'll be a millionaire. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

If not, at least we'll have some laughs, as with those classic 'umbrella' planes of early 1900s... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

Capt.LoneRanger
02-04-2005, 07:15 AM
Once you learn in school what a vector-base movement is, you'll learn that the vectors of your systems equals zero.

You will be moved around, but you end up where you started ever completed cycle.

womenfly
02-04-2005, 07:35 AM
Love your artwork Sessyman! Maybe you can do some preliminary drawings for Raaaid's invention and submit it to the US patent office?


P.S. I am a Mechanical Engineer ... what everyone else said Raaaid. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/heart.gif

DuxCorvan
02-04-2005, 07:51 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mjollnir111675:
Man, Raaaid, dont let these educated idiots get ya down!! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah, Pascal, Newton, Galileo... discouraging idiots!! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

eddiemac0
02-04-2005, 08:01 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>When you start telling this to the physicists, let us know

I'll register over there and start talking about planes <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Chuck, that's hilarious...

papaboon
02-04-2005, 08:15 AM
You ever have one of those "flashes of brilliance" where it just all comes together and you're just mesmerized by how powerful... the.... human...... mind..........ahhhh........forgot..........what... ........I ............was...............thinking............ ......about???????


Huh, too many herb fests in my younger days!

zaelu
02-04-2005, 09:06 AM
I want to build someting that for "Educated idiots" will look like an "perpetum mobile".
Now I think you will ease up on the initial poster.

Chuck_Older
02-04-2005, 10:34 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by zaelu:
I want to build someting that for "Educated idiots" will look like an "perpetum mobile".
Now I think you will ease up on the initial poster. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sure thing. Because of those two sentences that don't prove a thing, everyone will ease up

ZG77_Lignite
02-04-2005, 11:44 AM
I can't believe that in this day and age we are still hearing people say 'Everything has been thought of'.

Its not a problem to tell the kid how or why his idea won't work, but to tell him that his ideas are useless is just WRONG. Ideas are never useless, and I think Newton, Pascal and Einstein are all shining examples of such. I know I'm **** glad that Aristotle still isn't running the show, and I'll bet Aristotle felt the same way about his predecessor many years ago. Maybe this kid isn't going to win the Nobel Prize for physics, but maybe he will?

Spitf_ACE
02-04-2005, 12:45 PM
I have invented an amazing alternative to socks, and it never needs washing! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

I call it Paint'O'Foot, and you apply it to your feet every morning, and brillo pad it off every night.

It comes in a variety of colours, and at present I'm working on a stockings version for the lady. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

DuxCorvan
02-04-2005, 01:05 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ZG77_Lignite:
Ideas are never useless, and I think Newton, Pascal and Einstein are all shining examples of such. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ideas are often useless. Newton, Pascal and Einstein are shining exceptions of such. If not, to be a genius would be the common rule. Anyway, there's nothing wrong in having curiosity, initiative, thinking, questioning and experimenting. But once your assumptions are PROVEN wrong, you better take on other project, or you'll be pursuing a chimera your whole life.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I know I'm **** glad that Aristotle still isn't running the show, and I'll bet Aristotle felt the same way about his predecessor many years ago. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Aristotle is still running the show, the same than his predecessors. His medical and astronomical theories may be wrong, but his logic based on silogism is the base of any system based on logic conectives and switches, as any good computer literate knows.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Maybe this kid isn't going to win the Nobel Prize for physics, but maybe he will? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Maybe. At least he likes to search new ways. But despising or not taking in consideration important variables as reaction, friction, mass, energy loss, etc., just labelling them as 'neglectable', isn't proper of a true scientific spirit. Besides, we don't know raaaid's age. Why do you suppose he's a 'kid'?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I can't believe that in this day and age we are still hearing people say 'Everything has been thought of'. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sadly, there has not been any important discovery in physics or propulsion in the last twenty years. All that we are doing now is improving what we knew before.

But, yes. We shouldn't discourage him, it's good to have such initiatives. But, believe me. It will never work. Never.

raaaid
02-04-2005, 01:08 PM
first im not claiming this to be a free energy device, but it might be according to schauberger

but i have a better example now than the hammer thrower imagine a superhero who cant fly but is very fast and strong and he just bailed out from his space ship and is floating in space and only has stones and ropes to return to earth and he is out of the gravity field

he starts spinning two stones verticaly (and another two counterotatory to avoid spinning himself) when one of the stones is aimin at twelve and the other is pointing at 6 their aparent masses measured by a dinamometer put in the rope marks 10000 kg for each rock (w*w*r*m= centrifugal force and the w is very high)
but the mass of our superhero aparently is very low because his radius is 0, now when the stone is aiming at 12 suddenly he pulls himself towards 12, holding in a mass that is now 10000 kg so the rock is moved only slightly downwards with the 100 kg of the super hero pulling himself up

what about the rock that is aiming at 6 the superhero just unholds it letting the rock go horizontally and he manages to give away as much rope to the 6 rock as he takes from the 12 rock
now when he is in the top of the 12 rock the center of spin-gravity will have moved upwards (like the relative mass of the 12 stone is so high it will have gone only slightly downwards while pulling the 100 kg of the superhero)

now that he has moved the center of spin or gravity higher he just have to grab the 6 rope making it tense again and pulls himself to the center of the rope before the rocks get to be horizontally and then he can repeat the process

BSS_Goat
02-04-2005, 01:14 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Spitf_ACE:
I have invented an amazing alternative to socks, and it never needs washing! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

I call it Paint'O'Foot, and you apply it to your feet every morning, and brillo pad it off every night.

It comes in a variety of colours, and at present I'm working on a stockings version for the lady. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

LOL

DuxCorvan
02-04-2005, 01:23 PM
Now imagine a practical device. How would you move a 4 meter car of 2 tons with this? How many kilometers would the device measure, and how much huge free space needs to operate without getting something in the middle? I doubt that a practical device of this nature would fit inside a human artifact, unless the device's mass is too small too have any significant effect.

And still that superhero of yours should have to input an impressive amount of energy to get just a slight movement. Even if it worked the way you say -and I seriously doubt it- it would too inefficient to be viable: this device would consume too much energy to get just a slight movement, and the system would be too unstable -depending of too many failible circumstances- to work regularly.

Good try, raaaid, but it can't work. Sorry.

cwojackson
02-04-2005, 01:24 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DuxCorvan:

And still that superhero of yours should have to input an impressive amount of energy to get just a slight movement. Even if it worked the way you say -and I seriously doubt it- it would too inefficient to be viable: this device would consume too much energy to get just a slight movement, and the system would be too unstable -depending of too many failible circumstances- to work regularly.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>You've just described the United States Congress.

DuxCorvan
02-04-2005, 01:49 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

http://premium1.uploadit.org/DuxCorvan//Krypton.jpg

zaelu
02-04-2005, 02:16 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DuxCorvan:
Sadly, there has not been any important discovery in physics or propulsion in the last twenty years. All that we are doing now is improving what we knew before. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Think how much of our technology has been developed in the last 100 years? Now go to 1600 and say again that frase of yours... yup it makes sense now.

Raaaid, why your imagine has to be... mechanical or so? If you say perpetum mobile... everybody thinks about some balls that spins for long time. It shouldn't be the case. Build a non mechanical engine... Hey, stop thinking at it as an engine. Think about that guys socks... they are not socks... they are paints on feet that looks like socks... for blinds. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Chuck_Older
02-04-2005, 03:01 PM
Would you agree that developing technology that was new was easier in 1600 than it is in 2005, zaelu?

That's a tough comparison. Just because there was a lot of technological breakthroughs in the last 400 years, what does that prove? It only proves that in the last 400 years, there were breakthroughs. That statement cannot predict the future

I work for an emerging technology company. the main business is to take a known thing...and use new technologies to make it better. What can I say? My past clients include Ferrari, Northrup Grumman, the Boeing Company, Sikorsky, NavAir, CIBA, AirBus....they want new stuff. But they don't want to re-invent the wheel. That costs a lot of money.

I don't, I can't and I refuse to beleive raaaid is working in a lab with monetary support. If he were, he wouldn't be posting this here

This is an idea. And while I think it's obviously not feasible, that is just my opinion.

But he talks about this as essentially 'free energy', and then he tosses in something like 'then the weights get pulled in'

By what?! The very energy source he describes? But how? That's completely unanswered. By an external source> Well that's not free energy, is it? It's circular logic. The weights get pulled in...as soon as that happens, he's spending energy he didn't make.

To me, he's describing what I can best describe as an 'oscillating gyroscope'. Great. How does the oscillation get regulated? By itself? That depends on some things...like a perfect balance of weights. Perfect and unchangable balance. I see no evidence to support that this is remotely possible currently by Man, not just raaid. if you speed up or slow down, what happens? It's not always moving, sometime it must be started, right? It starts itself somehow? How does this motion get regulated on start-up? How does it sustain itself when the weights get pulled? Pulling the weights takes energy...and we're back to that issue. Circular logic

Schutze_S
02-04-2005, 03:01 PM
http://www.schutze.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/Spin.gif

Sky hooks and perpetual motion ideas welcome. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

zaelu
02-04-2005, 04:03 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Chuck_Older:
Would you agree that developing technology that was new was easier in 1600 than it is in 2005, zaelu? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree with you. I also agree that Raaaids ideea is not a working one... but I think people with crazy ideeas are good for humankind, otherwise we will get stuck someday in horisontal development like those people in the movie "Brasil". Ideeas, crazy ones especialy, are good for mind working... some go for bodybuilding, some don't. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

DuxCorvan
02-04-2005, 05:07 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by zaelu:
I think people with crazy ideas are good for humankind <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh yeah... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

http://www.absolutecelebrities.com/i/mugshot/MansonCharles.jpg

Spitf_ACE
02-04-2005, 07:15 PM
A couple of points;

1. Raaaid, when you lengthen the rope that is at 6 o'clock, it's angular velocity changes, so the 2 ropes aren't rotating at the same rate. Therefore you won't be able to propel yourself forward in the way you describe. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

2. Paint'O'Foot is going to make me a gazillionaire, and none of you can disprove this, and explain to me that it isn't! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

CPS_Shadow
02-04-2005, 08:41 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>aparent masses measured by a dinamometer put in the rope marks 10000 kg for each rock (w*w*r*m= centrifugal force and the w is very high) but the mass of our superhero aparently is very low because his radius is 0 <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Your confusing force and mass they are not the same thing.

The force exerted on the stones is equal to the force exerted on the super hero that force is what is keeping the strings taunt.

Both the super hero and the stones have a constant unchanging mass.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>now when the stone is aiming at 12 suddenly he pulls himself towards 12, holding in a mass that is now 10000 kg so the rock is moved only slightly downwards with the 100 kg of the super hero pulling himself up <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

True they move in opposite directions. However unless he completely releases the rock when the rock reaches 6 they will again be pulled in opposite directions fully balancing out the earlier motion.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>what about the rock that is aiming at 6 the superhero just unholds it letting the rock go horizontally... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Your not combining your force vectors correctly it will move horizontally and down, the super hero will move in the opposite direction.

Edit... that may not be quite right a lot of factors are involved here. Suffice it to say that the motion in one direction however will be met whith and equal and opposite motion in another direction. (Actually a combination of mass and motion in opposite directions)

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>and he manages to give away as much rope to the 6 rock as he takes from the 12 rock now when he is in the top of the 12 rock the center of spin-gravity will have moved upwards <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Center of gravity is not a force it is just a term that describes the middle point of the masses involved, it has no effect on the forces involved or the motion.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>now that he has moved the center of spin or gravity higher he just have to grab the 6 rope making it tense again and pulls himself to the center of the rope before the rocks get to be horizontally and then he can repeat the process <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

When he grabs the six rope it counters the motion that was previously caused by releasing it. And... you are right back where you started.

BTW I think it's great that you are trying to come up with new ideas. This one in my opinion won't work. But who knows your next one might be the one http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

CPS_Shadow
02-04-2005, 08:50 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Spitf_ACE:
I have invented an amazing alternative to socks, and it never needs washing! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

I call it Paint'O'Foot, and you apply it to your feet every morning, and brillo pad it off every night.

It comes in a variety of colours, and at present I'm working on a stockings version for the lady. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hate to burst your bubble but the ladies ones already exist:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/3043998.stm

and I'd be careful with your ideas, cause this is just plain wrong:

http://www.antipixel.com/blog/archives/2003/07/05/sprayon_jockstrap.html

Zeus-cat
02-04-2005, 09:56 PM
Well now I see a big part of the problem.
__________________________________________________
(w*w*r*m= centrifugal force and the w is very high)
__________________________________________________

There is no such thing as centrifugal force. Anyone who knows basic physics should know this. If this Schauberger person told you that this concept relies on centrifugal force then you are doomed from the start.

Go read a book by Einstein, Carl Sagan, Stephen Hawking or Richard Feynman if you want to read something good on physics.

Zeus-cat

RocketRobin__
02-05-2005, 12:23 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sessyman:
Some people have the craziest ideas...

I'm not even sure i Completely understand it...but i don't think it would work

COLD FUSION FIRST! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

In fact, fusion is directly related to pressure, rather than temperature.
Triple F bomb testing in the Soviet Union proved this, with results that cracked the Earth's mantle.
The USA quickly adopted triple F technology, leaving Russia, USA and (fairly recently) France as the primary purveyors of triple F WMD technology.

It's nice to have a wider choice of govenments that have the capability of anhialation, don't you think?

The reason we don't have non-explosive cold fusion on Earth; like our planetary neighbors on, say Jupiter, is because we can only create the pressure required by using a fission bomb.

Personally, since mankind is too stupid to fully understand (let alone create) gravity, I'll be happy if no one ever sets off another cold fusion device in my life-time. Even if the people that perform weapons grade cold fusion are from France, or equally chauvanistic platitude.

Then again, my field is related to energy control, rather than energy creation.

I'm sure you have your own opinions. I expect raaaid found his inpiration from the magic God of spinning around with no impetus.
I fear Gods. Gods have the power to make mankind kill. Mankind has the power of anhiallation, many times over.

Skarp-Hedin
02-05-2005, 12:42 AM
**** i thought that was some sort of hidden joke.

CPS_Shadow
02-05-2005, 01:07 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>There is no such thing as centrifugal force. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Your getting a little nit picky here. Most lay people refer to both centrifugal and centripetal force as just centrifugal force. Yes centrifugal force is just a way to describe a specific event. Centripetal force however, does exist and is a form of constant acceleration.

The equation for centripetal force is Force=Mass times Velocity Squared divided by the Radius. I'm not sure where the w*w*r*m equation came from or what it means.

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/hframe.html

CPS_Shadow
02-05-2005, 01:18 AM
Edit... (removed part, forgot he had counter rotating stones.)

For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.

zaelu
02-05-2005, 02:36 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DuxCorvan:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by zaelu:
I think people with crazy ideas are good for humankind <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh yeah... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I wasn't refering to that kind of people... but I'm shure you new it. Or should we kill people with crazy ideeas at once just to be shure they don't start to kill people? Hey, Raaaid where are you from? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

raaaid
02-05-2005, 07:28 AM
im from spain and now i have the example to prove my idea is not so crazy by the way where i said aparent mass i meant relative weight measured with a dinamometer the same if you weight yourself in an artificial gravity spinning device, youll weight more at 6 g´s than at 1 g

so the super hero has now two rocks with a relative weight of 10000 each aiming at 12 going counterotatry and another 2 rocks aiming at 6 counterotatory also
now the trick, he makes the stones at 6 crash together and they are made of clay so they stuck together now he pulls the 12 ropes pulling the 200 of the clay rocks (they dont spin any more so the weight of the rocks now is again 100 each) plus his 100 kg holding in the weight of each 10000 relative weight stones (you advance by having an object 20000 kg weight that you pull towards you with a rope but like your weight is much minor is you who goes forward instead of the 20000 kg going backwards) and he manages to recover all rope of the 12 stones before they advance 90 degrees making the 12 stones an implosion spiral trajectory of a quarter of spin

this is the similarity with schauberger implosion centripetal spiral thing

the upwards force would be 20000 kg from the 12 rocks minus the 300 of the superhero and the two clay not spinning rocks

you may say im crazy because this contradicts third principle of motion but i think that it is basics physics that a child could understand

Zeus-cat
02-05-2005, 07:30 AM
__________________________________________________ __
Your getting a little nit picky here. Most lay people refer to both centrifugal and centripetal force as just centrifugal force. Yes centrifugal force is just a way to describe a specific event. Centripetal force however, does exist and is a form of constant acceleration.
__________________________________________________ _

I don't think this is being picky. Ask people which way "centrifugal" force is acting and they always point in the wrong direction. Have someone fill a bucket with water and spin it around and ask them which way the force acts. They always say outward. That's just plain wrong. The force is inwards. F=ma proves it. The bucket is accelerating inwards at all times as it spins (jut like an object in orbit). Let go of the bucket and which way does it go? Does it fly outwards? No! It flies in a stright line tangential to the release point.

We don't all have to be Einsteins, but a good knowledge of basic physics certainly wouldn't hurt the average person. I see no reason to perpetuate the belief in a pseudo-force when the truth is easy to explain.

Zeus-cat

Chuck_Older
02-05-2005, 07:32 AM
raaid-

What's crazy is that you bring this to a game forum- twice!- and expect...what? Something like agreement? Advice? Congratulations?

This is like me going to my car club's website and telling everyone I've figured out a new way to bind a book, and then describing something that bears no resemblance to their concept of book binding

CHAV_
02-05-2005, 09:16 AM
ID say you would be better saving your time and money & forget this project building yourself a nice PC for bob & its add-ons if you do intend to follow it through lets see a few drawings a working model prototype preferably a short film of it working on your workbench, it€ll take a lot of time & a some of your hard earned cash! My own feeling from how you€ve described it is that even if it didn€t shake itself to pieces it would be inefficient. I was surprised at the good reception you received posting this subject, at the moment its an amusing diversion from the normal stuff while I wait for the 3.05 patch, a movie of a working prototype would be interesting lol.

raaaid
02-05-2005, 09:39 AM
my first idea was only half right i realized this with the help of people pointing me to forces i had neglected

but the second one is totally correct if you make the stones at six crash and let the 12 stones cross and then recover in a quarter of spin these 12 stones you will get an awesome pull

myself i see now no mistake in this propulsion system but would be very hard to make it real and how could i convince aviation engineers if i cant even convince one single educated person

CPS_Shadow
02-05-2005, 11:49 AM
I see your point Zeus-cat.

raaaid the force that is acting on the stones is also acting on the center. So a 6g force holding the stones from going off into space is also a 6g force on the center point.

The mass of the objects does not change. You cannot substitute weight for mass in a physics equation they are not the same thing.

If he pulls up against the stones, yes he would move, and they would move too... but again it is counteracted if he ever tries to recover the stones. If he lets go of them it would work.

Zeus-cat
02-05-2005, 12:17 PM
I think it is time for at least a lock on this thread. How about deleting it? Please.

this topic has nothing to do with this game and is a complete waste of time since the author won't even listen to anyone.

Zeus-cat

Spitf_ACE
02-05-2005, 12:18 PM
Raaaid, how is this propulsion system superior to what we already have?

Chuck_Older
02-05-2005, 12:19 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by raaaid:
my first idea was only half right i realized this with the help of people pointing me to forces i had neglected

but the second one is totally correct if you make the stones at six crash and let the 12 stones cross and then recover in a quarter of spin these 12 stones you will get an awesome pull

myself i see now no mistake in this propulsion system but would be very hard to make it real and how could i convince aviation engineers if i cant even convince one single educated person <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

OK, this is now officially getting me going

Raaaid, here's an idea. Why don't you tell us something about yourself? What education do you have, how have you proofed this concept and in what conditions?

The more I read your posts, the more I feel you have no idea what you are about. I know a couple maybe three things about developing new ideas in the aerospace industry, and a bunch of rationalisations won't even get you an SBIR Phase One. You need something to convince the stingy folks with money that they'll get a return on their investment. If I'm wrong about that, please correct me, I need to tell some folks we get funding in the wrong fashion.

I see no reason why you shouldn't be able to provide some better explanation of your engine, here. You say "I see no reason that it won't work." Fine. Convince me. Let's see your math on the subject. I want to see your calculations on any one of these things you say is right. You'll say that you're worried somebody will steal the idea...in which case you're too late, you've tried to explain everything else, except of course any tangible evidence that you're correct in your idea.

If you can't do that, might I suggest you need to start dusting off your calculator? Because an "aviation engineer" will maybe kinda sorta like to see some proof.

Folks are saying this is a crackpot idea because all you have is your (very odd) explanations- no numbers back you up. None.

Unless you can prove some of what you're saying, you have no basis for argument, discussion, or even indignation, which is why I'm not saying "sorry, but...". You have no reason for offense, you should be prepared to document and prove the concept, rather than arguing with people on why they should take your word for it.

I am now calling bullsh!t until I see any type of formula from you that proves otherwise, because this has gone on far too long. If you're serious, you should know right well that any discussion of this type is worthless without some solid math to back it up, and since you haven't yet, in two threads about it, I have to conclude this is an idea that seems right to you, not a valid concept that everyone but you can't comprehend. I'm not even going to go into lab environments versus the real world, because I don't think you've spent a second in the lab on this engine.

Gotta say this has gone on long enough http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

DuxCorvan
02-05-2005, 12:29 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by raaaid:
im from spain and now i have the example to prove my idea is not so crazy <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Aaaaaah! Eres espaol! Entonces, lo siento, t*o, pero estás tan loco como yo. Ninguno de éstos sale más tarde de las tres de la maana... y eso afecta a las neuronas del espaol medio. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

¿De qué parte de Espaa eres, a todo esto? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

raaaid
02-05-2005, 12:41 PM
so if he let the six stones go by the tangent he can pull up holding in the 12 stones well in a way making them crash is like letting them go but the force of the rocks that would go by the tangent horizontally pulling the center downwards sooner or later is nullified because they crash

now that he has nullified the force of the 6 rocks he lets the 12 rocks go by the tangent and theres a big force that let him pulls upward with the stones going only slightly downwards because of their big horizontal force (the vertical push that the superhero can get will be the horizontal force divided by the tangent of the angle the rope forms with the vertical distance from the superhero to the rocks, but like this horizontal force is nullified at six i can make it as big as i want at 12)

please someone tell me that he sees it in any case ill put an example of common sense:

you are on the ground with a high tower besides you at the top somebody shoots two cannonballs at oposite directions and the cannons are tight to to you what will happen when the ropes tense

somebody will say well when the ropes tense your 100 kg mass superior to the 3 kg mass of the cannonballs will pull the cannonbals downward i say youll be pulled up like hell(just try to imagine the cannons at 100 m altitude and that they give you 100 meters of rope) is common snese the cannonball will have moved down but much less than what you have moved up

Mjollnir111675
02-05-2005, 12:42 PM
HEY CHUCK:

"should this thread stay or should it go now?"

"Cuz if it goes there will be trouble and if its locked there will be double!!"

"So ya gotta lemme know....."



HEY 1-C: PIMP OUR TORP PLANES!! FRIKKIN' TURKEYS MAN!!!

Spitf_ACE
02-05-2005, 12:50 PM
Would it make more sense if you explained it in Spanish? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

raaaid
02-05-2005, 01:21 PM
im from oviedo the same city than fernando alonso the pilot and im sorry if i didnt answer some replies but i already said my first idea was wrong what i realized thanks to the people from here but my last idea is different it adds the crash of the 6 rocks

the way it works is the same the cannonballs shot from the tower horizontally would pull you up more than the stones go down is common sense though not what physics say

as how this topic fits in this forum first it has to be with schauberger a very important wwii character and secondary is a propulsion system for whatever flies

in fact the example of the cannonball is perfect to show where my invention and phisics contradict by pulling slighly a mass of six kg you displace 100 kg

Chuck_Older
02-05-2005, 01:29 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mjollnir111675:
HEY CHUCK:

"should this thread stay or should it go now?"

"Cuz if it goes there will be trouble and if its locked there will be double!!"

"So ya gotta lemme know....."



<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Mjollnir111675
02-05-2005, 01:32 PM
More of a Sex Pistols/ Murphy's Law/Misfits fan myself but I do have The Clash on vinyl and seven inch!!!
N.Y.H.C. days out on tha "Strong Island"!


HEY 1-C: PIMP OUR TORP PLANES!! The ALLEYWAY CREW would really like it a whole bunch!!

cwojackson
02-05-2005, 02:12 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by raaaid:
im from oviedo the same city than fernando alonso the pilot and im sorry if i didnt answer some replies but i already said my first idea was wrong what i realized thanks to the people from here... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I've never had the pleasure of visiting Oviedo but have spent many a pleasant say around Malaga.

While I'm not exactly understanding the full measure of your theory I applaud your efforts to formulate and advance your concept.

I've always been more appreciative of a fast failure then a slow success.

Let me explain, I'm not calling your idea a failure...what I am saying is I applaud the fact that you are willing to approach ideas from a new angle rather then the cautious approach following traditional trends.

I look at the Airbus 380 as an example. In the past 30 years we've made tremendous advances in aviation theory and design...yet the 380 is simply a grand version of the same old, but safe, design principles (a slow success...maybe).

admobadmo
02-05-2005, 07:21 PM
I'm having some trouble with this concept myself.

My problem arises with the fact that the machine seems to be driven by a superhero. I'm just wondering what the practical real-world equivilant of that would be.

As far as the mechanical concept, it seems to me to be the same as having an out of balance tire on your car somehow propelling the car. That would be a neat trick.

Longjocks
02-05-2005, 10:45 PM
raaaid, I applaud your imagination. I consider my imagination one of my greatest gifts. But there comes a time in translation to a tangible idea where you need to do the math. I have to ask, have you consulted people in a similar field of study or read their work? What are you studying at the moment?

Even in lay terms your explanations are vague. Even when I do understand a little of what you are saying it seens that you are adding variables that do little but wish away the laws of thermodynamics. I think you need to finish your studies and bounce your ideas off your peers in your chosen field.

Keep your imagination and use it, but you need to temper it with a proper education.

raaaid
02-06-2005, 10:10 AM
im studying nautics to become a chief oficial in a ship and the more i use what ive been taught the less i see the engine working but there are some things that keep me at it:

there are like 20 people in the world that have built very similar devices some of them working but with very little thrust like rob cook,they are called inertial thrusters, i think mine might be faster spinning because its very simple so i think ill contact them

its similar to schauberger works wher he talked about implosion as a centripetal spiral movement which is what my device does in both quarters of the half, in one quarter exploding and in the next quarter imploding

ive seen reactionless spin by a nasa guy who was floating in his spaceship in a sit position like with an invisible chair with the arms in front of his chest and by spinnining his waist both sides he would start rotating faster and faster in one direction

ive seen some pages describing the principle of my engine and even relating gravity as atoms behaving this way while spinning and is also related with the nutational spin of a gyroscope that produces precesion and if working with thrust enough a free energy device that would tap into some etherial energy

its also related to a child swing where they rock back and forward by only moving their feet back and forward (this is not studied in physics)

Schutze_S
02-06-2005, 11:43 AM
Just a little gif update http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

http://www.schutze.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/Spin.gif

DuxCorvan
02-06-2005, 12:30 PM
OT:

I'm from Santander, raaaid. Almost a neighbour of yours. My grandfather was 2nd official in a merchant ship, so I understand your aims.

Now I live in Cadiz. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

And cwojackson, Malaga coast is a nice place to be, so much fun, specially in the summertime. You should visit Cadiz now in the carnival, it's near Malaga and a good amount of fun, too.

And when you can, visit Oviedo, Santander, etc. -the northern coast of Spain. It's completely different in weather, landscape and people: you can't say you know Spain unless you visit all its regions, it's a rather rich mosaic.

End of OT.

Raaaid: it won't work. It's good as a mental exercise. But it won't work. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

cwojackson
02-06-2005, 12:55 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DuxCorvan:
OT:

I'm from Santander, raaaid. Almost a neighbour of yours. My grandfather was 2nd official in a merchant ship, so I understand your aims.

Now I live in Cadiz. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

And cwojackson, Malaga coast is a nice place to be, so much fun, specially in the summertime. You should visit Cadiz now in the carnival, it's near Malaga and a good amount of fun, too.

And when you can, visit Oviedo, Santander, etc. -the northern coast of Spain. It's completely different in weather, landscape and people: you can't say you know Spain unless you visit all its regions, it's a rather rich mosaic.

End of OT.

Raaaid: it won't work. It's good as a mental exercise. But it won't work. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Thanks, we will do that our next time over. All things considered, I presume the summer would be the best time to visit the north coast?

And if timing is ever with us perhaps we can see Cadiz during Carnival.

Both of us have loved what we've seen of Spain so far. We started in Malaga (and returned often) because a plane I was on once had to make a precautionary landing there. We had a little time to kill so I ended up over at the museum. What struck me was the smells (depsite an airport on a hot day, the south coast has some exotic smells) and the look of the town in the distance. I knew I wanted to come back and see that town.

For the most part, we've loved most places in Spain. The only exception was Madrid. I'm not saying it isn't a wonderful place, but it does seem to be populated with a different people all together.

Thanks for the tip on the north coast...we will do.

DuxCorvan
02-06-2005, 04:08 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by cwojackson:
All things considered, I presume the summer would be the best time to visit the north coast?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ah, yes. It's really fair, but very rainy the rest of year. The cities are lovely and the nature and the mountains between Cantabria and Asturias are unforgettable. If you like History visit Santillana, a medieval place -unfortunately crowded by tourists- but Altamira cave -one of the best examples of prehistoric art- is very near. You can't visit the caves, but there's an interesting museum near, with lots of prehistoric stuff, and an awesome reproduction of the caves, that have more than 10000 years. Then you can visit Covadonga and see the tiny cave from where a bunch of Christians -says the legend- stopped the Muslim advance over Europe in 8th Century and started reconquering the Peninsule. It's a rather impressive place.

If you visit Cadiz, know that it is the most ancient city in Occident. Founded by Phoenicians from Tyrus ca.1000BC, it has been occupied by Phoenicians, Carthaginians, Romans, Visigoths, and Muslims, and it's full of scars and traces of the past. Roman ruins and walls here and there, a museum full of items, forts from the Drake plunder, defensive walls and outposts from the 18th century, old merchant houses with towers with 'dark room' dispositives to seek the seas, French cannons taken to Napoleonic French after their failed siege planted as ashtrays in every corner... it was also the seat of the Spanish Constitution of 1812 -the third of the world, after USA and France. Carnival is continuous party -I even have a free day at work, tomorrow.

And, of course, pubs and bars that close late late in the night, in the Spanish way of life.

I'm glad you enjoy it. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

darkhorizon11
02-06-2005, 06:53 PM
Raaaid buddy, what'd I tell you? Lay off the reefer?

raaaid
02-07-2005, 12:34 PM
i think i can show how my engine works for exceptist

basic physic missconception is that if you trough a stone with a spinning sling the trajectory is tangential to the circle it describes in space, wrong is not tangential to a circle but to a spiral( the efects are the same though). The diference in radius of each sucesive ring of the spiral goes in proportion to the w, the bigger the w the bigger the diference in radius

this can be seen in an artificial generator of g´s that spins if you suddenly let the cabin move along the axe of its holder but keep it spinning it will start making a spiral trajectory and like w is w*w in the normal force and only w in the tangential force the bigger the w the bigger the size between diferent rings of the spiral

so the natural trajectory of a spinning object is a spiral that varies its size with the w

now i retake the example of the superhero and i will show theres advancement by using tensions

i have two stones at 12 and at 6 that because of the spinning show a tension in the ropes measured with dinanmometers of 10000 kg each

in the six rock i let the rope slide but i keep a constant tension of 1 kg so it starts making an spiral

in the 12 rock i pull with 10001 kg so i start recovering the stone making an implosion spiral with it

when they are horizontal i reverse pulling with 10001 kg the stone that goes 12 and letting go holding with 1 kg the rock that goes to 6

someone will say that the center of spin remains away from the middle of the mass of the superhero pulling him down but if this was true the tension in the six rock would be very high and i said that the tension in the six rock is always one because i release the rest, this implies the center of motion is always the mass of the superhero

someone may say that the w will vary because of variating the radius but both arms keep the same w since the real engine is a cilinder keeping both arms to the same w

then if i add from a starting normal force of 10000kg(w*w*m/r) i have 10001 kg pulling forward all the time and 1 kg pulling back at the same time it gives a pull forward of 10000 kg

clint-ruin
02-07-2005, 01:38 PM
There's only one way to test this.

Dig up christopher reeves corpse, stick it back in a wheelchair, shoot it into space, and attach rocks to each wheel of the chair and spin it around as fast as you can.

Get the shovel.

DuxCorvan
02-07-2005, 02:00 PM
Note sent from Marvel Comics:

"Key kid:

We have supernetural powers that allow us to fly at supersonic speeds despite the law of Physics. Why should we do that silly spectacle with the rocks and the ropes?

Respect!

Next time we'll free LEXX_LUTHOR, and you'll see..."

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

BSS_Goat
02-07-2005, 02:04 PM
CANT WE ALL JUST GET ALONG? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/cry.gif
http://www.courttv.com/graphics/ctv/trials/current/kingsmall.jpg

Zeus-cat
02-07-2005, 04:05 PM
Tangential to a spiral? Where did that come from? This just gets sillier and sillier as time goes by.

Chuck_Older
02-07-2005, 05:21 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Please, math that proves the concept, not math that proves algebra works

kiddknapp59
02-07-2005, 05:23 PM
Have I mentioned I have a flying pony?

Chuck_Older
02-07-2005, 05:26 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by kiddknapp59:
Have I mentioned I have a flying pony? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

WORD!

Spitf_ACE
02-07-2005, 05:56 PM
Wow, I'm interested in learning about GIT GEOMETRY (http://www.mypage.bluewin.ch/Bizarre/GITGeometry.htm) http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif