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Gustavflyer
07-21-2006, 08:37 PM
I wonder if oleg will have this feature in the BOB release or will us Luftwhiners have another superspit to deal with? I bet history will repeat itself and oleg and crew will have it doing its loops and swoops high over dover with no energy bleeds and we will have to go 2 or ven 3 on one to get it down. oh well another fine day in olegs world.

Waldo.Pepper
07-21-2006, 08:52 PM
I wonder if clueless posts like this is the reason Oleg is so scarce these days.

VW-IceFire
07-21-2006, 09:33 PM
Originally posted by Gustavflyer:
I wonder if oleg will have this feature in the BOB release or will us Luftwhiners have another superspit to deal with? I bet history will repeat itself and oleg and crew will have it doing its loops and swoops high over dover with no energy bleeds and we will have to go 2 or ven 3 on one to get it down. oh well another fine day in olegs world.
*fishing*

Mark I Spits had a gravity fed carb and suffered severe negative G fuel cut out. About halfway through the Battle of Britain a temporary stopgap solution was devised affectionately known as "Ms Schillings Orifice". It was invented by a Womens Auxiliary Officer. It allowed Spitfires limited negative G manueverability...enough to prevent the engine from cutting altogether but not enough to sustain the engine in any significant way.

I'll be interested to see how Oleg models this. You can bet that the Spit will not be able to perform negative G manuevers. HOWEVER...do not mistake this limitation as being present through the whole series....the Mark II partially solved the problem and the Mark V was no more inconvienced by negative G's than most other fighters of the era.

La7_brook
07-21-2006, 09:38 PM
its a shame the E is mod badly in game as the spit was a good plane in RL , as it is now making it look silly , planes that can stall out and then do loops is wrong in any ones book

tomtheyak
07-22-2006, 06:51 AM
I wonder if oleg will have this feature in the BOB release or will us Luftwhiners have another superspit to deal with? I bet history will repeat itself and oleg and crew will have it doing its loops and swoops high over dover with no energy bleeds and we will have to go 2 or ven 3 on one to get it down. oh well another fine day in olegs world.

Whatever...


...planes that can stall out and then do loops is wrong in any ones book...

I'd like to bloody see it!

What a crock of **** from people who obviously havent got the nous to fly the planes they choose in a manner fitting their characteristics.

I have seen enough spit bashing of late on these forums, and as a spit driver I have taken it fairly light heartedly. Now lets focus on the true reason for these petty litle sneers..

I love flying the spit, and will admit that there are better pilots than I out there who do great things in the 109s and 190s and I have been shot down by them many times. I have played with the Z&B families of blue a/c and will admit to not having the dicipline to fly them well. However, I fly this game for enjoyment not to prove anything to the rest of you so why should I have to put up being tarnished as a noob, or a cr@p pilot for flying a spit cos YOU dont have the ability to master the damned machine you've got a hard on for?

LEARN TO FIGHT AS YOUR A/C TYPE DEMANDS. Bloody ignorants.

Banger2004
07-22-2006, 09:07 AM
'I have seen enough spit bashing of late on these forums, and as a spit driver I have taken it fairly light heartedly. Now lets focus on the true reason for these petty litle sneers..

I love flying the spit, and will admit that there are better pilots than I out there who do great things in the 109s and 190s and I have been shot down by them many times. I have played with the Z&B families of blue a/c and will admit to not having the dicipline to fly them well. However, I fly this game for enjoyment not to prove anything to the rest of you so why should I have to put up being tarnished as a noob, or a cr@p pilot for flying a spit cos YOU dont have the ability to master the damned machine you've got a hard on for?'

I'll take the bait. For the most part, I agree with the above statement.

I have never truly understood what it is people have against the Spitfire in all its marques. Until all the so-called experts in these forums fly one for real in combat conditions (unlikely), then I shall continue to have faith in Oleg's modelling (might be misplaced, I know). Upshot is, the game is loaded with supposedly over modelled aircraft, who are we to know which is correct or incorrect?

However, because he has modelled engine cut- out in the Hurricane in IL-2 I see no reason to omit it from BoB. I personally hope it is included.

luftluuver
07-22-2006, 09:20 AM
will the spit have the air fed carb in BOB

Don't all internal combustion engine require air, and some fuel?

anarchy52
07-22-2006, 09:38 AM
A bit OT (not related to Spitfires in particular):

Some people have this blind faith in "Oleg's" FM/DM. I'm pretty sure that none at Maddox flew in WWII. The FM we have is largelly based on guesswork, and subject to inaccurate/misinterpreted data as well as limits on available CPU cycles (CPU does have to run SIMPLIFIED FM calculation along with the pretty graphics, I mean it's still a game, isn't it).

*Some* easily measured parameters of *some* planes are pretty much spot on. Some however are quite off and are historical or physical nonsense (MiG turn rates come to mind).

What I find amusing is that Olegs fan club features disproportionate number of Spitfire, La-5,La-7 fans.

DM is a whole another matter which is even more speculative, since the DM details are well hidden. Delta wood, be sure (TM).

heywooood
07-22-2006, 09:44 AM
not content with quaint, old fashioned fishing methods like hooks and spears...modern posters select dynomite or hand grenades for faster results.

there is a x_crash_x course available somewhere

VW-IceFire
07-22-2006, 09:57 AM
I'm curious to know if the people spewing this BS actually believe it or are in for a good time to rattle some cages? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Hopefully they don't actually believe it...otherwise we're in a very sad state of affairs as a species.

Banger2004
07-22-2006, 10:15 AM
I guess we will never reconcile how we all perceive Oleg's 'baby', but one thing is for sure, we should be happy he is doing what he does and accept the results with open minds. We will get what we get, and must make the most of it. Few things are perfect.

VMF-214_HaVoK
07-22-2006, 10:48 AM
Originally posted by Gustavflyer:
I wonder if oleg will have this feature in the BOB release or will us Luftwhiners have another superspit to deal with? I bet history will repeat itself and oleg and crew will have it doing its loops and swoops high over dover with no energy bleeds and we will have to go 2 or ven 3 on one to get it down. oh well another fine day in olegs world.

smacktard!

ploughman
07-22-2006, 11:38 AM
Curious that people who think 1C produces garbage Spitfire FMs should be considering buying a game entitled 'Battle of Britain.'

Smacktard.

Xiolablu3
07-22-2006, 11:50 AM
Originally posted by Gustavflyer:
I wonder if oleg will have this feature in the BOB release or will us Luftwhiners have another superspit to deal with? I bet history will repeat itself and oleg and crew will have it doing its loops and swoops high over dover with no energy bleeds and we will have to go 2 or ven 3 on one to get it down. oh well another fine day in olegs world.

Oh my god, how clueless.

The Hurricane MkI already has an air fed carb in IL2/PF

An air fed carb wont stop a plane doing loops, only negative G is affected.

Please read a little before posting!

Jaws2002
07-22-2006, 02:24 PM
Originally posted by Gustavflyer:
I wonder if oleg will have this feature in the BOB release or will us Luftwhiners have another superspit to deal with? I bet history will repeat itself and oleg and crew will have it doing its loops and swoops high over dover with no energy bleeds and we will have to go 2 or ven 3 on one to get it down. oh well another fine day in olegs world.



http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v258/<FA>Jaws/cluecopy.jpg

danjama
07-22-2006, 03:55 PM
Originally posted by Jaws2002:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Gustavflyer:
I wonder if oleg will have this feature in the BOB release or will us Luftwhiners have another superspit to deal with? I bet history will repeat itself and oleg and crew will have it doing its loops and swoops high over dover with no energy bleeds and we will have to go 2 or ven 3 on one to get it down. oh well another fine day in olegs world.



http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v258/<FA>Jaws/cluecopy.jpg </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

i love you officially!!!

blindpugh
07-22-2006, 04:05 PM
Originally posted by VMF-214_HaVoK:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Gustavflyer:
I wonder if oleg will have this feature in the BOB release or will us Luftwhiners have another superspit to deal with? I bet history will repeat itself and oleg and crew will have it doing its loops and swoops high over dover with no energy bleeds and we will have to go 2 or ven 3 on one to get it down. oh well another fine day in olegs world. well all I can say to you luftwhiners is:what a\c won the battle of britain then?

smacktard! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nubarus
07-22-2006, 04:11 PM
My guess is that Mr. Gustavflyer never took the Hurricane MKI for a spin since the feature he is whining about is actually already modelled in IL2.........so I really wonder why it would be left out in BoB on the Hurries and early Spits.............. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

Haigotron
07-22-2006, 04:49 PM
I think neither the spit nor the 109 will own

Oleg will surely own...

and there's nothing we can do about it gustavflyer...NOTHING

WWMaxGunz
07-22-2006, 05:42 PM
Originally posted by VW-IceFire:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Gustavflyer:
a small load of baseless pre-whining (okay, I summarized it. WWMG)
*fishing*

Mark I Spits had a gravity fed carb and suffered severe negative G fuel cut out. About halfway through the Battle of Britain a temporary stopgap solution was devised affectionately known as "Ms Schillings Orifice". </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Right about the fishing. I'll add that it's the kind of fishing done from a slow moving
boat and in this case the hook it dragging the bottom. A classic troll maneuver.

As to the orifice, that was not inventer until early spring 1941 which was long after the
BoB was over, the cross channel attack plans were scrapped IIRC October 1940.

GustavWhiner has an impressive 27 posts now. Too bad search is not working because I bet
I could enjoy 27 whines/whiner supports if it did.

I wonder how many actual people are involved in the ****ging? More than one I'm sure.
All it takes is finding losers online and telling them what they want to hear. A few
will get righteoused up and sing along. But the major $#!+heads for sure set up more
than a couple names to "swell the ranks" and do so for reasons more than honest feelings.
Well okay, except for the really sick bastages. Anyone else would just leave.

WWMaxGunz
07-22-2006, 06:01 PM
Originally posted by anarchy52:
A bit OT (not related to Spitfires in particular):

Some people have this blind faith in "Oleg's" FM/DM.

OTOH it could be that this one company has come out with a superior product that as is beats
the rest. For some reason there are asinine clods that feel a driving need to tear it down
over small imperfections want to magnify every one they can find and invent 4x as many more
based on their own flawed ideas and perceptions. These same trolls have got themselves so
far polarized that they feel that everyone who disagrees believes the modelling is perfect
and Oleg is some kind of god but then being full of it is what the trolls do most.

WHY do you bother with the constant b!tching? If it's so flawed then why do you come here
pushing your boo-hoo's year after year? Do you bother playing or just automatically come
and post your krap? Are you paid to do it? Because why else the nagging BS?

At least I get a sim I like out of it even if there are parts I don't like and did ask to
see changed. Guess what? When I found out that those many changes were not going to be
made I just backed off. I didn't make the sim and don't make the changes as it belongs to
someone else. I pay for a copy as I choose to do and enjoy it as it is. Just like anything
else made and 'sold' on the free market, I can buy or not buy.

How many smacktard trolls does it take to change a lightbulb?
None, they just sit in the dark and post complaints.

Von_Rat
07-22-2006, 06:18 PM
Originally posted by Gustavflyer:
I wonder if oleg will have this feature in the BOB release or will us Luftwhiners have another superspit to deal with? I bet history will repeat itself and oleg and crew will have it doing its loops and swoops high over dover with no energy bleeds and we will have to go 2 or ven 3 on one to get it down. oh well another fine day in olegs world.

dont listen to the spitboi fan club gustav. they all know there are problems with the spits e retention. their just in denial to cover their lack of skills.


i understand your concern that the problem wont be addressed in bob. i share them myself, but i'll give oleg the benifet of the doubt and give it a try.


and before the spitbois start with their learn to fly your plane routine, let me say i have no trouble killing spits. i have better than a 3 to 1 k/d ratio against them on warclouds, which is better than my overall k/d there.

on warclouds at least you fly against (some) decent spit pilots who use the planes correctly moddelled attributes and dont just rely on the spits faulty e modelling to save themselves.

i always admired the real spit, even bought books about it. i cant stand the bad joke that the spit in this game has become because of its moddelling.

La7_brook
07-22-2006, 06:43 PM
Originally posted by tomtheyak:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I wonder if oleg will have this feature in the BOB release or will us Luftwhiners have another superspit to deal with? I bet history will repeat itself and oleg and crew will have it doing its loops and swoops high over dover with no energy bleeds and we will have to go 2 or ven 3 on one to get it down. oh well another fine day in olegs world.

Whatever...


...planes that can stall out and then do loops is wrong in any ones book...

I'd like to bloody see it!

What a crock of **** from people who obviously havent got the nous to fly the planes they choose in a manner fitting their characteristics.

I have seen enough spit bashing of late on these forums, and as a spit driver I have taken it fairly light heartedly. Now lets focus on the true reason for these petty litle sneers..

I love flying the spit, and will admit that there are better pilots than I out there who do great things in the 109s and 190s and I have been shot down by them many times. I have played with the Z&B families of blue a/c and will admit to not having the dicipline to fly them well. However, I fly this game for enjoyment not to prove anything to the rest of you so why should I have to put up being tarnished as a noob, or a cr@p pilot for flying a spit cos YOU dont have the ability to master the damned machine you've got a hard on for?

LEARN TO FIGHT AS YOUR A/C TYPE DEMANDS. Bloody ignorants. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> been here for over 4 years i say i can fly blue ok /u really belive that the E MOD is right then u must be dreaming

Prop_Strike
07-22-2006, 08:44 PM
Originally posted by blindpugh:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by VMF-214_HaVoK:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Gustavflyer:
I wonder if oleg will have this feature in the BOB release or will us Luftwhiners have another superspit to deal with? I bet history will repeat itself and oleg and crew will have it doing its loops and swoops high over dover with no energy bleeds and we will have to go 2 or ven 3 on one to get it down. oh well another fine day in olegs world. well all I can say to you luftwhiners is:what a\c won the battle of britain then?

smacktard! </div></BLOCKQUOTE> </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ah....actually it was probably the Hurricane that won the BOB....there were 19 squadrons equipped with Spits and 29 with Hurricanes.
Hurricanes actually shot down 3 times as many German aircraft than Spitfires did!

But I agree with you....calling the Spit a nancyboy plane is just insulting "The Few".
By all reports, the Spit felt beautiful and was easy to fly- this is what makes it a GOOD fighter plane.....the Luftwhiners can call me whatever they want.....I'll still blow there whinging butts apart with my 'Noobfire'... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/mockface.gif

Some of the guys I fly against are fantastic pilots in a 109 or a 190.....very hard to kill.
If flown right, the German planes can make a mess of even the best Spit pilots.

Von_Rat
07-22-2006, 11:18 PM
calling the Spit a nancyboy plane is just insulting "The Few".
__________________________________________________ __

nobody insulting the real life spit, or the brave pilots who flew them.

what is a insult to the real spit is this games spits e retention. it makes a real life heros plane a nancyboy ride.

HellToupee
07-22-2006, 11:21 PM
just what should its e retention be?

Von_Rat
07-23-2006, 12:23 AM
the spit9 should have the e retention it had early on in game, not long after it was introduced it had realistic e retention.

but then so many nancy boys got shot down by vet 09 pilots in tnb fights on the deck, that they gave it the current ufo model e retention.

actually imo the problem wasnt in the spit, it should of been left alone, i think the 09s,,read g2,,, may have been turning to good. but then again maybe it was they were better pilots.

gkll
07-23-2006, 12:35 AM
This spit e-retention thing has become a mantra.... new best aircraft is just too much for some. E retention during manuevering should be best in class for spit, it has all the tricks and appears to be designed for same. Pays a price in straightline drag for its good cooling, this is never considered by those whining about the 'uber' cooling. And so on...

In fact recent criticism of the spit is the lowest grade criticism I believe I have seen, ever, on these forums. No data, no reasoning, no real argument, just blotted jottings, rambling and whining. The spit was a superior aircraft, through the war it excelled at a variety of roles but particularily as a pure dogfighter.

There are many reasons the spit should retain e well during hard manuevering, one kind of 'e-retention',, however morons who can't even define what they think is wrong are not likely to have any understanding of this, too bad. So whine away, I hope Oleg sticks to his guns.... or do you spit haters just want even gameplay... you can have real, or you can have balanced gameplay, pick one.

Sometimes a machine really does stand out from the rest, just a better, or more reasoned, set of compromises. Spit looks to me to have been designed pretty carefully to have certain complementary strong points, suits it perfectly to online play as well.

EDIT<Oleg must have known the 25lb was going to be a problem, that may be why the long delay in getting this common aircraft.... and in fact I predicted along with many others that the 25lb would be new best over La7... and so it went. Those of us with a brain could see this one coming.... just from studying the planes, should be no surprize the current plane ranking. So get used to it, or promote more servers with earlier planes where the RL balance was closer/ban the 25lb/etc>

ImpStarDuece
07-23-2006, 01:02 AM
Originally posted by Prop_Strike:

Ah....actually it was probably the Hurricane that won the BOB....there were 19 squadrons equipped with Spits and 29 with Hurricanes.
Hurricanes actually shot down 3 times as many German aircraft than Spitfires did!



Care to change that to something that may more closely resemble the TRUTH? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

There were 1,593 1/2 claims made by 36 Hurricane Squadrons (and 2 flights) during the Battle period

There were 1,116 1/2 claims made by 18 Spitfire squadrons (and 1 flight) during the Battle period.

Hurricanes, despite having a 2:1 ratio of numbers over the Spitfire, only claimed 477 more kills, or around 30% more.

Von_Rat
07-23-2006, 01:22 AM
Originally posted by gkll:
This spit e-retention thing has become a mantra.... new best aircraft is just too much for some. E retention during manuevering should be best in class for spit, it has all the tricks and appears to be designed for same. Pays a price in straightline drag for its good cooling, this is never considered by those whining about the 'uber' cooling. And so on...

In fact recent criticism of the spit is the lowest grade criticism I believe I have seen, ever, on these forums. No data, no reasoning, no real argument, just blotted jottings, rambling and whining. The spit was a superior aircraft, through the war it excelled at a variety of roles but particularily as a pure dogfighter.

There are many reasons the spit should retain e well during hard manuevering, one kind of 'e-retention',, however morons who can't even define what they think is wrong are not likely to have any understanding of this, too bad. So whine away, I hope Oleg sticks to his guns.... or do you spit haters just want even gameplay... you can have real, or you can have balanced gameplay, pick one.

Sometimes a machine really does stand out from the rest, just a better, or more reasoned, set of compromises. Spit looks to me to have been designed pretty carefully to have certain complementary strong points, suits it perfectly to online play as well.

EDIT<Oleg must have known the 25lb was going to be a problem, that may be why the long delay in getting this common aircraft.... and in fact I predicted along with many others that the 25lb would be new best over La7... and so it went. Those of us with a brain could see this one coming.... just from studying the planes, should be no surprize the current plane ranking. So get used to it, or promote more servers with earlier planes where the RL balance was closer/ban the 25lb/etc>

talk about blotted jottings.

none of the above explains why the early game verison of spit9 didnt have the great e retention it has now.

it was changed because of whining, pure and simple.

current plane ranking??? i havent check standings on any server but wc. the spit isnt top plane there, niether was spit25 before it was removed.

HellToupee
07-23-2006, 01:58 AM
actually the early game version of the spit9 was very much whined about, from the moment it was included into the game it has been whined about, you might be confusing it with the spit 5 which is farless powerful.

WOLFMondo
07-23-2006, 02:33 AM
Originally posted by Von_Rat:

current plane ranking??? i havent check standings on any server but wc. the spit isnt top plane there, niether was spit25 before it was removed.

Von Rat, something of interest:
http://www.war-clouds.com/wf-stats/
Spitty is 2nd and 3rd. But the Dora is daddy. No shock to me http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif A9 has the best K/D ratio.

WWMaxGunz
07-23-2006, 02:44 AM
Things did change since 4.0. You have to use the rudder far more realistically than was
previous or in any other prop combat flight sim I've seen yet. If you don't then you
suffer on speed and the tendency to stall and spin. Especially so in high AOA maneuvers
where IRL and in-game you get the most induced drag.
So here is the Spitfires that have wider, draggier wings ***at the same AOA*** but don't
need to pull the same AOA to get the same lift. And lift is what turns the plane. That
is IRL, drag increases by the square of AOA (okay, coefficient of lift which until
pre-stall is linear with AOA), the square of speed and linearly with wing area.

Enter the need to keep the plane coordinated esp at high AOA and you have the Spits with
less need to stay out of slip versus many other favorites having more need to be flown
properly and not like the FM was before. Pre-4.0x there was the tendency for planes to
stay straight up to stall and then go quickly into spin and since 4.0 we can hold a stall
much better but the cost is you can no longer ignore the rudder and the ball.

The end result is a relative difference. Flown incorrectly the Spits do better. I am
sure they are not the only ones but only the Spits actually got the monster power engines
to go with the turn fighter wings so there you have it.

Funny but I can easily pull a Spit into stall shudders and right through into a spin.
It's just not quite as easy as with 20+ other models.

Weird but I had to learn these things even after years of sim experience. For me the 4.0x
patches that I did not except for 4.05 pay anything for have been the biggest step forward
in prop combat flight sims since IL2 first appeared.

Intruder_GP
07-23-2006, 04:01 AM
The spit has become noobified with the e-retention very unrealistic....I doubt in RL this plane ever had that capability like it is in the game with the 25Lbs

Lucius_Esox
07-23-2006, 04:14 AM
I'd like to bloody see it!

What a crock of **** from people who obviously havent got the nous to fly the planes they choose in a manner fitting their characteristics.

I have seen enough spit bashing of late on these forums, and as a spit driver I have taken it fairly light heartedly. Now lets focus on the true reason for these petty litle sneers..

I love flying the spit, and will admit that there are better pilots than I out there who do great things in the 109s and 190s and I have been shot down by them many times. I have played with the Z&B families of blue a/c and will admit to not having the dicipline to fly them well. However, I fly this game for enjoyment not to prove anything to the rest of you so why should I have to put up being tarnished as a noob, or a cr@p pilot for flying a spit cos YOU dont have the ability to master the damned machine you've got a hard on for?

LEARN TO FIGHT AS YOUR A/C TYPE DEMANDS. Bloody ignorants.



Well said http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Get's so bad sometimes I put it down to sheer bad loser syndrome...

I got very badmouthed flying on WC the other night by a well known poster on here for shooting him down in his Dora... Up on the chat bar straight away saying how overmodelled the Spit is etc etc......... I dived on him with a THREE THOUSAND FEET ADVANTAGE... lol.

It was at that moment that I realised really what a crock of SH1t a lot of people come out with.

I only really fly WC because I'm half blind and like the icon settings... Go there and check the stats and see which planes are doing what.

It's insulting to be called a noob because I like flying Spitfires. Sheer bad sportsmanship imo.

Dont hear anyone moaning about snark here, well I do hear a few red whines on comms sometimes http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Look at his stats ? What does he fly? He's there because he is excellent at what he does..

Jeeez,,, you beet me coz you got something better then me, and it shouldn't be! playground stuff a lot of it.

How about the people who get an advantage because of the pc they got, don't hear that one moaned about a lot. Maybe thats because there's not a lot you can do about that, moan loud enough and long enough in the right places and you can get things done though!

Bl00dy Erich Hartman wannabees,,, bunch of t0ssers the lot of em lol.

F6_Ace
07-23-2006, 05:18 AM
What I find amusing is that Olegs fan club features disproportionate number of Spitfire, La-5,La-7 fans.

Bingo!

And, what the hell do server stats have to do with aircraft modelling? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

F6_Ace
07-23-2006, 06:04 AM
Calm down, pal...you'll have an aneurysm if you're not careful.

Monty_Thrud
07-23-2006, 06:15 AM
Did i touch a nerve? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

F6_Ace
07-23-2006, 06:18 AM
Not with me you didn't. I was just amused at your ironic, childish outburst while berating others for the same http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

HotelBushranger
07-23-2006, 06:27 AM
I notice Gustav hasn't come back to the thread.

Monty_Thrud
07-23-2006, 06:42 AM
Excellent, so i did touch a nerve...LOL

OD_79
07-23-2006, 06:55 AM
Can I just point out that while everyone is talking about negative G in IL2 all aircraft which cut out unfortunately seem do so in reduced G, ie before it has got to 0-G. There is a difference.
As for energy retention...who cares, it's not real life so you can't play it as real life, you have to play it as it comes, if you try and fly it exactly how a real one is flown don't be surprised when somethings don't quite match up to what you expect, or your dull graphs. It is a game, learn to fly the in game aircraft to their strengths, which are broadly similar to reality.

OD.

La7_brook
07-23-2006, 07:23 AM
The E-3 and E-4 saw heavy action during the Battle of Britain, especially the former. The fuel-injected DB601 engine of the Bf 109 proved most useful against the British Supermarine Spitfire and Hawker Hurricane fighters, as the British fighters used gravity carburetor engines, which would cut out under negative g forces whereas the DB601 did not. The Bf 109s thus had the initial advantage in dives, either during attack or to escape. The Spitfire proved a formidable opponent, being slightly faster and somewhat more maneuverable at medium to high speeds than the Bf 109 (the latter due to the Bf 109's high wing loading). On the question of comparative turning circles in combat Spitfires and Hurricanes benefited from their lower wing loading compared with the Bf109; 22 to 24 pounds per square foot on the RAF machines against 32 pounds per square foot for the Bf 109. Royal Aircraft Establishment tests with a captured Bf 109 showed the Spitfire's turning circle €" without height loss €" was 696 feet (212 m) in radius (the Hurricane's would be slightly tighter) while the 109's was 885 feet (270 m) radius according to British calculations using assumed values as basis. According to the German manuals however, the smallest turning circle was 170 m, and fighter pilots on both sides claim they would out-turn their opponents in combat. The Bf 109 enjoyed good handling near stalling speeds as it was particularly forgiving then. Firepower between the two main antagonists was comparable, with the Spitfire's eight .303 inch machine guns versus the Bf 109's two 7.92 mm MG17 machine guns and two 20 mm MG FF cannon. However, the MG FF occasionally jammed and had a small (60-round) ammunition capacity. To be fair, when the Spitfires were later upgraded to two 20 mm Hispano-Suiza cannon, the British initially had serious jamming problems of their own with the new weapon. RAF pilots who tested captured Bf 109s liked the engine and throttle response but criticised the high speed handling characteristics, poorer turning circle, greater force required on the control column at speed and the thick framing of the cockpit glazing which they felt created blindspots in the pilot's field of vision. this from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messerschmitt_Bf_109 as u can see its were u read or whos tilling the story

VW-IceFire
07-23-2006, 07:39 AM
Nothing to argue about in there La7_brook. Thats all more or less correct information but its VERY generalized and it contains no details into the operational history of either 109 or Spitfire during the Battle of Britain.

The gravity fed carb was used through the whole series of Spitfires to my knowledge. Even the Griffon engined models have a carb system and no fuel injection (correct me if I'm wrong). As a matter of fact...not many engines in WWII were injector type and yet this was not a huge issue overall. It depended on how the carb operated and what was used to counter negative G impacts. Later Spitfires and Hurricanes had this problem solved out of necessity.

I would suggest you maybe find a place online where they fight Hurricane Mark I (not the Mark II) against Bf109E-4s and see how the negative G impacts their fighting. In all honesty it doesn't have as big an impact as you'd expect. A good Hurricane pilot just rolls over to follow. It can be tricky because this lets the 109 escape from the gunsight but if properly countered the Hurricane can still shoot him down.

The biggest surprise by far is forgetting about negative G impacts and nosing over only to cut the engine out.

F6_Ace
07-23-2006, 07:52 AM
Originally posted by Monty_Thrud:
Excellent, so i did touch a nerve...LOL

Nope. Nasty men from net made you cry, though http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Monty_Thrud
07-23-2006, 08:05 AM
LOL, childish outbursts, keep off the dope.

That nerve must be hurting waay baad...why do you whiners keep changing your names?

F6_Ace
07-23-2006, 08:07 AM
Go on...have another outburst. You know you want to http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

carguy_
07-23-2006, 08:12 AM
IMO the La7 is somewhat easier to fly than the Spitfire.Although it has far fewer performance reserves.Outmaneuvering the La7 is more than possible,since enabling MW50 helps late Gustavs in hard maneuvers.

The biggest difference is that the La7 pilot,if he pulls too much out of his crate and doesn`t use his firing solution,he falls short in energy and comes disadvantaged out of the maneuver.The Spitfire pilot however,can pull as hard as he can(IF he avoids the stall) and his plane will still be on par with better energy managing LW pilot.


I`ve flown on eastern front all my virtual life and the thing is very clear.When the Virtual Western Front online war appeared,things changed dramatically.In a lobby of 200pilots flying online wars daily,you get to know ppl.You know who is agressive,who is a great pilot,who likes high altitude or low.
Immediately noticable is that all of those average pilots I downed easily on the EF turn into killing machines scoring 2-3 fighters/sortie staying alive for 8-12 missions.
They couldn`t manage it flying La7 or La5FN,Yak9U or even overmodelled LaGG3S66.


So on EF where Luftwaffe pilots faced bad,good and ace VVS pilots,on WF they faced all very good and ace pilots.The Jabo Focke Wulf 190 does not count as a threat on the WF and LW needs a minimum of a G14 to somehow create an opposition to Spitfires.

Ofcourse there were also missions that gave red pilots planes like P63,P47 and P51.Those missions felt like the Eastern Front sorties,only easier.Basically a P51/P47 puts a stop to virtual RAF ace`s career http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif


I stopped playing VWF because I could not see anything.Spits are invisible for me in Normandy map.The map is very bad when crossed with Oleg`s dots.Since I always found myself either missing the show completely or having zero SA,I left.There`s not much left to do when you suddenly spot a Spifiire 200m from you.
Also back then the Spits had all kinds of various "bugs" like wings disappearing over some distances.Beats me why American and German planes have easy to spot skins(bare metal,light grey,yellow) and RAF planes are always fitte with navy skins that blend into the horizont.


Wonder how Spits would do with white skins http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Monty_Thrud
07-23-2006, 08:15 AM
Care to answer my question?

and also why do you keep whining?, if its so bad then leave

DmdSeeker
07-23-2006, 08:16 AM
One thing has always puzzled me with the 109's fueling.

I've always understood the great advantage of fuel injection is more precise metering; that's to say a more accurate control of the stochiometric fuel/air ration of 16.1 to 1 parts /air to fuel which makes for the perfect combustion needed to extract the most usable energy from the fuel.

And yet I've read many pilot accounts; from both sides stating the 109 trailed dark or black smoke when under sudden heavy throttle loads; which I would assume would be due to an over rich mixture under full load.

I know most carberated engines need richening under acceleration, hence the accelerator pumps and jets on most cars (do planes have this too?); was there a mechanism for richening the mixture for the DB's mechanical fuel injection?

F6_Ace
07-23-2006, 08:18 AM
Originally posted by carguy_:
IMO the La7 is somewhat easier to fly than the Spitfire.Although it has far fewer performance reserves.Outmaneuvering the La7 is more than possible,since enabling MW50 helps late Gustavs in hard maneuvers.

The biggest difference is that the La7 pilot,if he pulls too much out of his crate and doesn`t use his firing solution,he falls short in energy and comes disadvantaged out of the maneuver.The Spitfire pilot however,can pull as hard as he can(IF he avoids the stall) and his plane will still be on par with better energy managing LW pilot.


I`ve flown on eastern front all my virtual life and the thing is very clear.When the Virtual Western Front online war appeared,things changed dramatically.In a lobby of 200pilots flying online wars daily,you get to know ppl.You know who is agressive,who is a great pilot,who likes high altitude or low.
Immediately noticable is that all of those average pilots I downed easily on the EF turn into killing machines scoring 2-3 fighters/sortie staying alive for 8-12 missions.
They couldn`t manage it flying La7 or La5FN,Yak9U or even overmodelled LaGG3S66.


So on EF where Luftwaffe pilots faced bad,good and ace VVS pilots,on WF they faced all very good and ace pilots.The Jabo Focke Wulf 190 does not count as a threat on the WF and LW needs a minimum of a G14 to somehow create an opposition to Spitfires.

Ofcourse there were also missions that gave red pilots planes like P63,P47 and P51.Those missions felt like the Eastern Front sorties,only easier.Basically a P51/P47 puts a stop to virtual RAF ace`s career http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif


I stopped playing VWF because I could not see anything.Spits are invisible for me in Normandy map.The map is very bad when crossed with Oleg`s dots.Since I always found myself either missing the show completely or having zero SA,I left.There`s not much left to do when you suddenly spot a Spifiire 200m from you.
Also back then the Spits had all kinds of various "bugs" like wings disappearing over some distances.Beats me why American and German planes have easy to spot skins(bare metal,light grey,yellow) and RAF planes are always fitte with navy skins that blend into the horizont.


Wonder how Spits would do with white skins http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

"Invisible wings" are chiefly associated with Seafires and it makes bnz runs particularly difficult because you don't know their attitude until you're already well within firing distance. Still, that couldn't possibly make life difficult could it? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

Monty_Thrud
07-23-2006, 08:22 AM
*YAWN*

...its a beautiful day outside, i suggest you ...go-and-get-a-life

F6_Ace
07-23-2006, 08:23 AM
Originally posted by Monty_Thrud:
Care to answer my question?

and also why do you keep whining?, if its so bad then leave

What question is that? Why I changed my name to F6_Ace? To make a point about the lack of toggle for F6 - I thought that would be perfectly obvious even to those with a low IQ. I did leave - I hadn't played this game for months but I might just come out of retirement
to do some more wind ups http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

As to whining, what have you been doing? I do find that particularly ironic.

So, as Mrs Doyle would say, 'Awwww....go awwwwwwwwn...have another outburst, farder!"

http://www.fathertedonline.ukf.net/Images/characterpagephotos/mrsdoyleface.jpg

Anyway, if you want to continue crying on my shoulder, let's take it to PM - I don't want any Spitwhiners spoiling this thread.

Monty_Thrud
07-23-2006, 08:26 AM
Wind-ups...who do you think you're winding up Mr Hitler

LOL its yourself that you're winding up LOL

F6_Ace
07-23-2006, 08:30 AM
You can "LOL" at your own jokes if you like to make yourself feel better pal. Be my guest.

Have we reached the part of the thread where someone feels they are losing so they refer to Nazis, too? So soon, too....That's really spoilt it for me. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

F6_Ace
07-23-2006, 08:32 AM
So sorry to invoke Godwin's law, old boy:



Godwin's Law (also Godwin's Rule of Nazi Analogies) is a mainstay of Internet culture, an adage formulated by Mike Godwin in 1990.

It states:

As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one.[1]


and



There is a tradition in many newsgroups and other Internet discussion forums that once such a comparison is made, the thread is finished and whoever mentioned the Nazis has automatically "lost" whatever debate was in progress.


Good old wikipedia

OD_79
07-23-2006, 08:38 AM
How about both of you give up...not quite sure what the problem is, lost track of it ages ago.

OD.

SeaFireLIV
07-23-2006, 09:07 AM
Originally posted by Gustavflyer:
I wonder if oleg will have this feature in the BOB release or will us Luftwhiners have another superspit to deal with? I bet history will repeat itself and oleg and crew will have it doing its loops and swoops high over dover with no energy bleeds and we will have to go 2 or ven 3 on one to get it down. oh well another fine day in olegs world.


Either you are fishing, as others have said to make a scene and are therefore doing a disservice to yourself and luftwhiners who may really have something to complain about.

or..

You have absolutely no idea what you`re talking about, but decided to jump on the luftwhiner bandwagon anyway, trying to somehow emulate the true Luftwhiners and look cool. In that case you`ve still done a massive disservice to yourself and every other Luftwhiner out there that might have a cause.

If this was real life, the Luftwaffe would put you up against a wall and have you shot.


Hmm, bit late, didn`t realise it`d gone to THREE pages... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/shady.gif

heywooood
07-23-2006, 09:27 AM
wow - BoB doesn't even have a forum of its own yet and this carp is already nauseating....

so far, neither side holds the title on childish immaturity...still being hotly contested.

onwhine spit v 109 player bashing and cheatwhining is going to be disgusting - maybe the offline players are teh smarter ones.

Jaws2002
07-23-2006, 09:30 AM
God how ridiculous this tread is. There's at least a half a year until BOB will be out and you guys already whine about the flight models in that game.

Sorry, but this is really dumb. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

Monty_Thrud
07-23-2006, 10:11 AM
The problem is OD_79, F_ace hasn't a good word to say about anything concerning this Sim, he didnt in his previous name, he hasnt learnt and continues with this one, why does he and others whine so much and continue to play, or do they play this game?...sometimes i dont think they do.

...now i've nothing against constructive criticism, but thats not what he's about

...and btw, where did i call you a Nazi F_ace?

This is my last word and my apologies to the thread starter.

Chuck_Older
07-23-2006, 10:15 AM
Originally posted by Gustavflyer:
I wonder if oleg will have this feature in the BOB release or will us Luftwhiners have another superspit to deal with? I bet history will repeat itself and oleg and crew will have it doing its loops and swoops high over dover with no energy bleeds and we will have to go 2 or ven 3 on one to get it down. oh well another fine day in olegs world.

I wonder too. If Oleg models anything other than the air-fed carb I'll be p!ssed. The Helium fed sidedraft carb wasn't used in Spits until the prototype Mk. V for chrissakes http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Seriously, the German Forums are full of "Oleg hates the Germans", and the Russian forums are full of "Oleg hates us Russians". We are perhaps lucky here, being able to choose which side he hates, on a daily basis

OD_79
07-23-2006, 12:23 PM
Maybe he hates all sides equally...just like Drill Intructor Hartman in Full Metal Jacket.
Personally I like the game, the FM is pretty good, can always be improved, very few things can't be improved.
Personally I'd like to wait and see what we get in BoB rather than speculate, because all we seem to be getting are threads with threats like This *insert plane* had better not have this *insert feature* in BoB. Why? It's his game.
Personally I think some of you take this way too seriously, I enjoy it and would love it to be better, but it's not life threatening that something is not exacrtly as I have read about it, adopt adapt and improve!

OD.

P.S as for F6_ace changing names I don't know what his old one is so I couldn't comment, but to be honest it all seemed a bit pointless.

heywooood
07-23-2006, 12:30 PM
"Pyle! what is your major malfunction?!!!"

"..are you the kind of a man that will f*c|< another man in the a$$ without givin' him the benefit of a reacharound?!!...is that it, Pyle?!!!"...love that flick.

La7_brook
07-23-2006, 12:47 PM
Originally posted by VW-IceFire:
Nothing to argue about in there La7_brook. Thats all more or less correct information but its VERY generalized and it contains no details into the operational history of either 109 or Spitfire during the Battle of Britain.

The gravity fed carb was used through the whole series of Spitfires to my knowledge. Even the Griffon engined models have a carb system and no fuel injection (correct me if I'm wrong). As a matter of fact...not many engines in WWII were injector type and yet this was not a huge issue overall. It depended on how the carb operated and what was used to counter negative G impacts. Later Spitfires and Hurricanes had this problem solved out of necessity.

I would suggest you maybe find a place online where they fight Hurricane Mark I (not the Mark II) against Bf109E-4s and see how the negative G impacts their fighting. In all honesty it doesn't have as big an impact as you'd expect. A good Hurricane pilot just rolls over to follow. It can be tricky because this lets the 109 escape from the gunsight but if properly countered the Hurricane can still shoot him down.

The biggest surprise by far is forgetting about negative G impacts and nosing over only to cut the engine out. do need to high light / well sum think its a little closer then sum here thing too On the question of comparative turning circles in combat Spitfires and Hurricanes benefited from their lower wing loading compared with the Bf109; 22 to 24 pounds per square foot on the RAF machines against 32 pounds per square foot for the Bf 109. Royal Aircraft Establishment tests with a captured Bf 109 showed the Spitfire's turning circle €" without height loss €" was 696 feet (212 m) in radius (the Hurricane's would be slightly tighter) while the 109's was 885 feet (270 m) radius according to British calculations using assumed values as basis. According to the German manuals however, the smallest turning circle was 170 m, and fighter pilots on both sides claim they would out-turn their opponents in combat. The Bf 109 enjoyed good handling near stalling

La7_brook
07-23-2006, 01:08 PM
Originally posted by La7_brook:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by VW-IceFire:
Nothing to argue about in there La7_brook. Thats all more or less correct information but its VERY generalized and it contains no details into the operational history of either 109 or Spitfire during the Battle of Britain.

The gravity fed carb was used through the whole series of Spitfires to my knowledge. Even the Griffon engined models have a carb system and no fuel injection (correct me if I'm wrong). As a matter of fact...not many engines in WWII were injector type and yet this was not a huge issue overall. It depended on how the carb operated and what was used to counter negative G impacts. Later Spitfires and Hurricanes had this problem solved out of necessity.

I would suggest you maybe find a place online where they fight Hurricane Mark I (not the Mark II) against Bf109E-4s and see how the negative G impacts their fighting. In all honesty it doesn't have as big an impact as you'd expect. A good Hurricane pilot just rolls over to follow. It can be tricky because this lets the 109 escape from the gunsight but if properly countered the Hurricane can still shoot him down.

The biggest surprise by far is forgetting about negative G impacts and nosing over only to cut the engine out. do need to high light / well sum think its a little closer then sum here thing too On the question of comparative turning circles in combat Spitfires and Hurricanes benefited from their lower wing loading compared with the Bf109; 22 to 24 pounds per square foot on the RAF machines against 32 pounds per square foot for the Bf 109. Royal Aircraft Establishment tests with a captured Bf 109 showed the Spitfire's turning circle €" without height loss €" was 696 feet (212 m) in radius (the Hurricane's would be slightly tighter) while the 109's was 885 feet (270 m) radius according to British calculations using assumed values as basis. According to the German manuals however, the smallest turning circle was 170 m, and fighter pilots on both sides claim they would out-turn their opponents in combat. The Bf 109 enjoyed good handling near stalling </div></BLOCKQUOTE> my point here is the tommys test the bad guys plane 109 and say its this ,and the German manuals says it this / so who is right? ill guess sum were in midway

StG2_Schlachter
07-23-2006, 01:45 PM
http://images.google.de/images?q=tbn:nlpUBQeoJzzpyM:www.nzmaths.co.nz/measurement/Volume/VolumeImages/popcorn.gif

Intruder_GP
07-24-2006, 05:34 AM
Wow wow wooo....The spit is still a noob bird till it gets realistic...I mean the 25Lbs http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif