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View Full Version : D(Luft) T 2190 A-8 document indicates that Fw190 ingame sight view worse than IRL



Holtzauge
07-23-2007, 06:41 AM
Here is some input on the Fw190 view over the nose debate:

From D(Luft)T. 2190 A-8 (English text version), September 1944, appendix A page 02:

"¯The vertically mounted engraved sighting image comprises an aiming cross with deflection graduation marks, and a range circle. The angular distance between graduation is 1 degree. The range circle diameter is 10% of range (i.e it has a diameter of 10yds at 100 yds range)."¯

From D(Luft)T. 2190 A-8 (English text version), September 1944, Armament installation A-B/R1 page 3, section A. Sighting:

"¯The field of view downwards is 3 degrees"¯

There is also (in the same document appendix A page 3) a picture of the sight image showing the circle cutting the cross just before the 3 degree mark which is consistent with the 10% range ( arctan 1/20= 2.86 degrees)

Now if we fly the A8 ingame we can conclude that the sight picture is wrong. The circle cuts the cross at what looks like the 3rd mark on the cross. In the 2190 document picture of the sight the 3 degree mark is visible and further out from where the circle crosses at the 2.86 degree mark.

I did a few tests on the B-17 (wingspan 31.62m) and at around 310 to 330 m the wings filled the circle. So this means that the circle is somewhere at 2.74-2.92 degrees ingame.

Since the ingame circle seems to tab pretty well with IRL data, we can conclude the ingame view is worse than it should be since we should have an unobstructed view past the bottom part of the circle through the windscreen.

Here is the link to where the original 2190 document can be found. Ron Handgraaf has a great site with lot's of intersting info. Enjoy! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

http://www.tailwheel.nl/em/fockewulffw190/index.html

Akronnick
07-23-2007, 07:32 AM
Ah, the dreaded bar...

Probably too late to do anything about it in Il-2, here's hoping the problem gets fixed for SoW.

BBB_Hyperion
07-23-2007, 07:35 AM
Thx for bringing up this topic again. So far we have different sources with almost identical conclusions about the sight range. The problem is not only bar related but size of the revi seems too small as well. But as there were different revi models used on the fw it can be explained using older ones.

Bewolf
07-23-2007, 07:35 AM
Originally posted by Akronnick:
Ah, the dreaded bar...

Probably too late to do anything about it in Il-2, here's hoping the problem gets fixed for SoW.

Ah yes. refraction. Move along.

Klemm.co
07-23-2007, 09:04 AM
Oleg would'nt even have to model refraction. As we know many cockpits are
not at their correct height in relation to the rest of the plane (just look at the Spit Vc).
So how about deleting the bar altogether but setting the cockpit those few centimeters higher,
it would'nt be noticable anyway.
Of course that would'nt be 'historically correct', but the bar is far more historically incorrect
than this correction would ever be.
Can it be so difficult to set the proper cockpit elevation position in the IL-2 game engine? The Spit Mk. Vc cockpit seems to suggest this. But is would be definitely worth a try for the SOW engine.

And I hope that if Oleg does'nt correct this, that he at least allows some user-made plane to be implemented with the correct view.

Been flying the 190 lately a lot and stopped noticing the bar along the way. But that extra degrees of view would definitely help.

slipBall
07-23-2007, 12:08 PM
Very interesting.......the owner hand book is great! I want to take it outside with me to the garage and check out everything.....if only http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

Holtzauge
07-23-2007, 12:35 PM
Originally posted by Klemm.co:
Oleg would'nt even have to model refraction. As we know many cockpits are
not at their correct height in relation to the rest of the plane (just look at the Spit Vc).
So how about deleting the bar altogether but setting the cockpit those few centimeters higher,
it would'nt be noticable anyway.
Of course that would'nt be 'historically correct', but the bar is far more historically incorrect
than this correction would ever be.
Can it be so difficult to set the proper cockpit elevation position in the IL-2 game engine? The Spit Mk. Vc cockpit seems to suggest this. But is would be definitely worth a try for the SOW engine.

And I hope that if Oleg does'nt correct this, that he at least allows some user-made plane to be implemented with the correct view.

Been flying the 190 lately a lot and stopped noticing the bar along the way. But that extra degrees of view would definitely help.

Yep, I agree completely. Just fix the view to provide the downward view according to the historical 3 degrees. How difficult can it be programming wize really? Just translate all cockpit related pixels down the appropriate amount for the right field of view. No need to fiddle with the sight or weapons alignment at all. As Dr. Strangelove would have put it: "It only requires the WILL to do it!"

BTW: My guess is that 3 degrees unobstructed view mentioned in 2190 would be to the bulges on the housing of the MG131's. IIRC, I've seen cockpit cut-away Fw 190 drawings that show 5.35 degrees to the cowling lip with what looks like refraction of the armour window included (link anyone?). If this was included it would provide a vastly better downward view which would be more historically correct.

stalkervision
07-23-2007, 01:02 PM
You don't happen to have a Me-109 owners manual lying around there somewhere do you?? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif