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joseph92371
08-20-2005, 09:32 AM
Anyone else realling warming up to this plane? If so- do you have any good links or reads?

Thanks,

Todd

huggy87
08-20-2005, 10:15 AM
It is probably my real life favorite WW2 plane. It shot down just over 5000 japanese planes for only a couple of hundred A-A losses. That being said, in the game, I can't do that great with it. Much has been said on these forums about the inability to outdive japanese planes. I seem to have much better success with the corsair.

hotspace
08-20-2005, 10:22 AM
http://www.compass.dircon.co.uk/F6F.htm

http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/grumman_f6f_hellcat.htm

http://www.acepilots.com/planes/f6f_hellcat.html

http://www.hbs.net/gcc/F6F.htm

http://www.aviation-history.com/grumman/f6f.html

http://www.zenoswarbirdvideos.com/F6F.html

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Hot Space

fordfan25
08-20-2005, 11:58 AM
Originally posted by joseph92371:
Anyone else realling warming up to this plane? If so- do you have any good links or reads?

Thanks,

Todd

i strongly feel it is not reprosented well in this game. resones for feeling this way are this. it even more so than the p-47 is far to easy to bring down. sure 4 or 5 mk108 hits would probly do the job every time but i find even useing .50's it lights up just as easy as the zekes and ki's also has structer failure to easy and often just like the hog and Tbolt. think about it these planes were not that heavey for no resone. the us navy did not fill the rear with sand bags lol. just look it up on the net. pictures stories even offical reports well tell you that this was one of the very toughst fighters of the war just like the 47 and f4u. also its dive rates are awful in compairson with other fighters. next is the FM weather its close or not i dont know but eather the hellcat is off or the f4-u is off because thay both feel like exactly the same plane to me dispite piolet acounts. sept for top speeds of course. also the engiens over heat at the drop of a hat like the sair and bolt. its like it and the other two US radials seem to be castrated in this sim/game/work of russian fantasy http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif . all of that is IMO i guess and based off of every thing i have seen read and heard over the years.

as for the real life plane. i think from what i know of it it was a great plane but only in the situation that it was in. meaning that had the plane been in the eto it would not have done to well do to its low top speed only. it was a reliable plane that could take a beating smile and ask for secounds. easy to work on as well as build from scratch. easy to fly and fight in. it was just to slow once the war got to its final stages. of course by then the bearcat was ready and on its way and would have handed the ki84 its a$$ http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif.

fordfan25
08-20-2005, 01:27 PM
"And, on the other side of the coin, the Hellcat could absorb unbelievable punishment and still bring the pilot back to his ship. Pilots tell of "mostly holes where the airplane used to be" and "more air was going through it than around it". One Hellcat had been burning for a hundred miles before landing on its carrier. Top Navy ace, David McCampbell told of watching the piston and connection rod "popping in and out" of the mangled Pratt-Whitney "Double Wasp" engine as he struggled to fly the pieces of his Hellcat back to the carrier. The Grumman Company itself was often referred to as the "Grumman Iron Works"." -

http://www.aviation-history.com/grumman/f6f.html

aparintly thay never flew a 1c/ubi hellcat. theres must have been overmoddled or as olge would say propaganda http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif.

WOLFMondo
08-20-2005, 01:57 PM
Originally posted by joseph92371:
Anyone else realling warming up to this plane? If so- do you have any good links or reads?

Thanks,

Todd

i've really tried to like the hellcat, after all i've read about it i thought it would be my kind of plane but i simply cannot get to grips with it. for a plane with a huge engine its very slow at all heights and its acceleration is really lacking as is its climb. its forgiving and easy to fly but i feel like a target whenever i'm in one.

stansdds
08-21-2005, 05:41 AM
The Hellcat was not all that aerodynamic and it never equalled the Corsair in terms of payload, climb or flat out speed, but the Hellcat was designed for carrier ops and there is where it excelled. The Hellcat had better visibility over the nose and was more forgiving especially in landings.

Dtools4fools
08-21-2005, 03:33 PM
Haven't tried the Hellcat myself, but regarding the huge number of kills and smaller losses of Hellcats in WWII one should consider as well:

- numbers; The Hellcats outnumbered the Japanese fighters. Very important factor. Even a very skilled pilot will have problems shooting down enemy planes if greatly outnumbered. No easy task to shoot a plane in front of you down when you got 4-8 planes at your tail...

- Pilot quality; new late war Japanese pilots had less training. And lots did not have much time to accumulate experience during operations...

It seems OK to me that if we do not have those advantages than we will not achieve the same results as in WWII.
Guess a wing of 40 Hellcats with regular pilots plus veterans and some aces would do fine in a mission against a dozen of Zeroes with mostly rookie pilot level...

****

Blueknight1964
08-21-2005, 06:51 PM
Like Hellcats ? Visit us at our home. Hellcats is our specialty. http://www.vbf-12.com/

DRAGON_2_GO
08-21-2005, 07:20 PM
Well, about it's performance: It is considerably rougher than any Japanese fighter but even through it's mneuverability is better than the Wildcat's I still wouldn't like to engage Zeros close up. It's a zoom and boom bird and the Zeros just couln'd go with that, but a Hellcat just isn't made for (turning)dogfights and if a Zero gets a chance to engage one in a turnig-fight, the pilot of the Hellcat has got a REAL problem......

I prefer Corsairs....

IL2-chuter
08-22-2005, 12:24 PM
I've read the accounts of at least two Japanese pilots who said that they would rather take on Corsairs than Hellcats because the Corsairs would just BnZ, which they felt they could counter, and the Hellcats would dive in and (at least initially, probably just long enough for the kill) follow them into their evasive turns. Of course, they weren't playing IL2 . . .

PS. The Hellcat was designed EXACTLY to take on the Zeke.

ColoradoBBQ
08-22-2005, 02:01 PM
The Hellcat is a BIG plane and should be treated as such. To those complaining about the huge engine not giving a good performance, try flying above 2000M and that plane will perform better with second stage supercharger than on first stage supercharger. It also can dogfight with the Zeroes at speeds above 200 mph where is you find youself getting outturn by the Zero, just dip the nose below the horizon and keep your speed up or buzz away safely.

Asgeir_Strips
08-22-2005, 03:27 PM
Originally posted by IL2-chuter:
I've read the accounts of at least two Japanese pilots who said that they would rather take on Corsairs than Hellcats because the Corsairs would just BnZ, which they felt they could counter, and the Hellcats would dive in and (at least initially, probably just long enough for the kill) follow them into their evasive turns. Of course, they weren't playing IL2 . . .

PS. The Hellcat was designed EXACTLY to take on the Zeke.

no you're wrong, the hellcat design was designed as a upgrade to the F4F, it was originally intended to put a wright R2600 on a F4F airframe but the structural changes prevented them from doing that, so they took this very new engine, called the PW R2800 (2000Hp instead of 1600HP of the wright) and designed a new airframe around it.. So the Hellcat design was planned before the USA could get hold of the Aleutian Zero..

conclusion, no the hellcat wasn't designed to defeat the zero. it was designed as a fleet defense fighter. kinda like the F14 tomcat :P

CRSutton
08-22-2005, 03:30 PM
Originally posted by DRAGON_2_GO:
Well, about it's performance: It is considerably rougher than any Japanese fighter but even through it's mneuverability is better than the Wildcat's I still wouldn't like to engage Zeros close up. It's a zoom and boom bird and the Zeros just couln'd go with that, but a Hellcat just isn't made for (turning)dogfights and if a Zero gets a chance to engage one in a turnig-fight, the pilot of the Hellcat has got a REAL problem......

I prefer Corsairs....

Am I wrong? I thought that at high speeds, the hellcat could easily outmaneuver a zero. Was that not what is was designed for-that is, to counter the zero.

CRSutton
08-22-2005, 03:31 PM
Whoops! Should have read the previous post. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

fordfan25
08-22-2005, 04:08 PM
Originally posted by CRSutton:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DRAGON_2_GO:
Well, about it's performance: It is considerably rougher than any Japanese fighter but even through it's mneuverability is better than the Wildcat's I still wouldn't like to engage Zeros close up. It's a zoom and boom bird and the Zeros just couln'd go with that, but a Hellcat just isn't made for (turning)dogfights and if a Zero gets a chance to engage one in a turnig-fight, the pilot of the Hellcat has got a REAL problem......

I prefer Corsairs....

Am I wrong? I thought that at high speeds, the hellcat could easily outmaneuver a zero. Was that not what is was designed for-that is, to counter the zero. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

no you r not wrong http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif from all the books ect that i have read on the subject in the last 27 years all have stated the same thing. that the hellcat could out manuver the zeke at med to high speends at low speeds it was still close but as the speeds droped so did the gap in favore of the zero. in all other respects the hellcat was at the advantege.

VW-IceFire
08-22-2005, 07:14 PM
I think the thing that was said was the Hellcat could outmanuever the Zero at speeds about 300mph. Thats pretty fast...so keep your Hellcat fast and the Zero's can't touch you.

The Hellcat was not designed to counter the Zero. The Hellcat was designed to succeed the Wildcat. The dates of development make the "counter to the Zero" idea a nice legend based in no real fact.

Although the Hellcat doesn't really seem to have much ***** in PF...I still really like it. I'm still tweaking my campaign for it and it does really quite well.

Something doesn't seem QUITE right on the plane but I can't put a finger on it. Like other plane enthusaists...its time to get the official numbers and test the bejeezus out of the plane.

fordfan25
08-22-2005, 07:38 PM
Originally posted by VW-IceFire:
I think the thing that was said was the Hellcat could outmanuever the Zero at speeds about 300mph. Thats pretty fast...so keep your Hellcat fast and the Zero's can't touch you.

The Hellcat was not designed to counter the Zero. The Hellcat was designed to succeed the Wildcat. The dates of development make the "counter to the Zero" idea a nice legend based in no real fact.

Although the Hellcat doesn't really seem to have much ***** in PF...I still really like it. I'm still tweaking my campaign for it and it does really quite well.

Something doesn't seem QUITE right on the plane but I can't put a finger on it. Like other plane enthusaists...its time to get the official numbers and test the bejeezus out of the plane.


lol to bad it takes 4 days to get the cat to 300mph

fordfan25
08-22-2005, 07:41 PM
Originally posted by VW-IceFire:
I think the thing that was said was the Hellcat could outmanuever the Zero at speeds about 300mph. Thats pretty fast...so keep your Hellcat fast and the Zero's can't touch you.

The Hellcat was not designed to counter the Zero. The Hellcat was designed to succeed the Wildcat. The dates of development make the "counter to the Zero" idea a nice legend based in no real fact.

Although the Hellcat doesn't really seem to have much ***** in PF...I still really like it. I'm still tweaking my campaign for it and it does really quite well.

Something doesn't seem QUITE right on the plane but I can't put a finger on it. Like other plane enthusaists...its time to get the official numbers and test the bejeezus out of the plane.

i think its low speed handaling is off. i think it should feel lighter on its feet so to say. also excelaration is pi$$ poor as it is with the othe to DW based planes. the biggst fubar IMO is of course its DM. like iv said many times it the hog and Tbolt are WAY to flimsy IMO. i can deal with the current FM's but the DMs need major looking at.

WOLFMondo
08-23-2005, 12:36 AM
thats the problem i find, the acceleration. you can bnz but on the zoom out you loose so much speed then trying to regain it in level flight or a shallow dive takes an age, if your stuck near the deck and theres a enemy within 1km i have real problems leaving the fight and regaining that speed and altitude. the modelling in pf although i can't say if its right or wrong makes this plane kind of unpleasent to fly in a fight.

NS38th_Aristaus
08-23-2005, 03:28 AM
~S~ All
The Hellcat dominated the Pacific.
Here is a little History on the A/C.

http://www.acepilots.com/planes/f6f_hellcat.html

http://www.aviation-history.com/grumman/f6f.html

http://www.aviation-history.com/grumman/f6f.htm

asgeirr73
08-23-2005, 04:07 AM
I am at the moment reading the bio of Maj.gen Marion E. Carl USMC (ret) 14000flighthours first marine to fly helicopter first marine to be a ace in ww2 testpilot and flew in Vietnam to and so on..)
read it very nice and not to thick for such a targetrich life pun intended http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

well to the topic he flew Hellcat and Wildcats
he writes that it takes 45 min to 20 000 fet and the zero was faster and climbed better, turned better and the brewster was canonfodder for the zero (in his first dogfight one zero shoot down 40 brewsters 13? of his friends (he flew the <span class="ev_code_RED">Edit wildcat</span> at that moment and shoot down the "40 zero" by diving down on him from behind)

JG53Frankyboy
08-23-2005, 05:45 AM
Originally posted by asgeirr73:

well to the topic he flew Hellcat and Wildcats
he writes that it takes 45 min to 20 000 fet and the zero was faster and climbed better, turned better and the brewster was canonfodder for the zero (in his first dogfight one zero shoot down 40 brewsters 13? of his friends (he flew the hellcat at that moment and shoot down the "40 zero" by diving down on him from behind)

sry, what ??

USN Brewsters F2A-3 fought only at Midway, far before the F6F reached combat............

asgeirr73
08-23-2005, 12:22 PM
Originally posted by JG53Frankyboy:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by asgeirr73:

well to the topic he flew Hellcat and Wildcats
he writes that it takes 45 min to 20 000 fet and the zero was faster and climbed better, turned better and the brewster was canonfodder for the zero (in his first dogfight one zero shoot down 40 brewsters 13? of his friends (he flew the hellcat at that moment and shoot down the "40 zero" by diving down on him from behind)

sry, what ??

USN Brewsters F2A-3 fought only at Midway, far before the F6F reached combat............ </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes you are absolutly right I meant he flew the F4F(wildcat) at Midway and Guadacanal later on also the F6F(hellcat) and yes it was at midway he flew side by side whit the Brewsters "Obsolete" as he called them

Mixed them up a bit sorry http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

they also hade the p400 (export model of the P39 aircobra)at Gudacanal and he says they should only have been used for light bombing and strafing
as it was no good against the zero

page 23-25 from "Pushing the Envelope"

sorry if I went a bit of topic

VMF-214_HaVoK
08-23-2005, 04:29 PM
The Hellcat is still not up to specs. While the Wildcat and P-40 seem to be above specs. On a side note the FM2 is pos plane. Odd how there can be such a performace gap between the FM2 and Wildcat.

Grey_Mouser67
08-23-2005, 08:18 PM
I love the hellcat...but it is not represented well in this game at all...Oleg made some interesting choices...beginning with the green slime on the windsheild.

I was curious to see how he modelled the speed aspect of the aircraft...he chose popular data as opposed to the reports that showed the plane had an incorrectly placed speed indicator...those studies showed the Hellcat to be a 405-410mph aircraft IIRC...that sounds right based on the engine and high drag design. What is most peculiar is that some aircraft, like the Ki-84, was modelled using obsucure post war data and the Grumman wasn't.

We did not get the cannon armed F6F-5 either. In real life, some of those aircraft had the inner HMG's removed and Hispano's put in place of them....what a Wallop!

The plane suffers from a high degree of instability in Yaw and Pitch like most Heavy American aircraft which destroys stability and gunnery.

The dive modelling of the sim has been suspect for a long time....just yesterday, offline, I dove from 15,000 ft. and reached speeds in excess of 700km/hr and I had a Zeke stay right with me through my manuevers to the deck! Yeah right!

The Hellcat was easy to fly, forgiving and as tough as they came...it should, along with teh Jug and to a slightly lesser degree corsair, be the toughest single engined aircraft in the game...period! Sadly, it is not even close...this probably has more to do with teh obscene 19:1 kill ratio than anything other than pilot quality and lots of Judy's for targets.

I have gotten the impression that many objective American pilots and many Japanese pilots regarded the Grumman as superior/more dangerous than the Corsair....the primary reason for this is its superb turning ability and toughness...it could dive down on the Japanese aircraft and then dogfight instead of zooming back up! I think this reinforces the speed error...as Japanese felt the Hellcat was very fast...380mph is not much faster than 355 of the A6M5, the Zeke could out turn it at low speeds but not high speeds, both planes did not roll well and Hellcat was superior in dive by a large margin even though the A6M5 was much improved over the A6M2.


The Hellcat could use an overhaul...no doubt...but I like it none the less and actually, the closeness of performace with the zeke makes for some good gameplay online....I doubt any servers would host a Zeke vs. Hellcat match up if the Hellcat had a 19:1 kill ratio online http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

fordfan25
08-23-2005, 08:43 PM
Originally posted by VMF-214_HaVoK:
The Hellcat is still not up to specs. While the Wildcat and P-40 seem to be above specs. On a side note the FM2 is pos plane. Odd how there can be such a performace gap between the FM2 and Wildcat.

look in the object viewer on the FM2. is that rate of climb right. it sure seems if i remember right to indecate that the FM2 had almost twice the climb of the wildcat.

VMF-214_HaVoK
08-23-2005, 08:45 PM
Originally posted by Grey_Mouser67:
I love the hellcat...but it is not represented well in this game at all...Oleg made some interesting choices...beginning with the green slime on the windsheild.

I was curious to see how he modelled the speed aspect of the aircraft...he chose popular data as opposed to the reports that showed the plane had an incorrectly placed speed indicator...those studies showed the Hellcat to be a 405-410mph aircraft IIRC...that sounds right based on the engine and high drag design. What is most peculiar is that some aircraft, like the Ki-84, was modelled using obsucure post war data and the Grumman wasn't.

We did not get the cannon armed F6F-5 either. In real life, some of those aircraft had the inner HMG's removed and Hispano's put in place of them....what a Wallop!

The plane suffers from a high degree of instability in Yaw and Pitch like most Heavy American aircraft which destroys stability and gunnery.

The dive modelling of the sim has been suspect for a long time....just yesterday, offline, I dove from 15,000 ft. and reached speeds in excess of 700km/hr and I had a Zeke stay right with me through my manuevers to the deck! Yeah right!

The Hellcat was easy to fly, forgiving and as tough as they came...it should, along with teh Jug and to a slightly lesser degree corsair, be the toughest single engined aircraft in the game...period! Sadly, it is not even close...this probably has more to do with teh obscene 19:1 kill ratio than anything other than pilot quality and lots of Judy's for targets.

I have gotten the impression that many objective American pilots and many Japanese pilots regarded the Grumman as superior/more dangerous than the Corsair....the primary reason for this is its superb turning ability and toughness...it could dive down on the Japanese aircraft and then dogfight instead of zooming back up! I think this reinforces the speed error...as Japanese felt the Hellcat was very fast...380mph is not much faster than 355 of the A6M5, the Zeke could out turn it at low speeds but not high speeds, both planes did not roll well and Hellcat was superior in dive by a large margin even though the A6M5 was much improved over the A6M2.


The Hellcat could use an overhaul...no doubt...but I like it none the less and actually, the closeness of performace with the zeke makes for some good gameplay online....I doubt any servers would host a Zeke vs. Hellcat match up if the Hellcat had a 19:1 kill ratio online http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

eggzactly http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

geetarman
08-24-2005, 08:17 AM
Originally posted by IL2-chuter:
I've read the accounts of at least two Japanese pilots who said that they would rather take on Corsairs than Hellcats because the Corsairs would just BnZ, which they felt they could counter, and the Hellcats would dive in and (at least initially, probably just long enough for the kill) follow them into their evasive turns. Of course, they weren't playing IL2 . . .

PS. The Hellcat was designed EXACTLY to take on the Zeke.


Read Hammels' "Aces against Japan." Many of the accounts are from Hellcate pilots. You are right, the bulk of the F6F accounts detail USN pilots literally dogfighting Zero's, Franks, etc. I'm talking haeavy-duty manuevering.

geetarman
08-24-2005, 08:24 AM
One of the maps on Zekes vs. Wildcats has F6F's vs. later Zero's and Betty's. That is a great match up. The Hellcat feels strong in a more FR environment. Get behind a Zero, get a bead and it's "poof."

Also, I find it to be pretty good, stability-wise, at lower speeds. Much more forgiving than the USAAF planes at 145 mph.

R_Target
08-24-2005, 04:00 PM
It's always been my favorite. It really gets the stepchild treatment in PF unfortunately.

VW-IceFire
08-24-2005, 09:22 PM
Well lets gather evidence then. IF we've got the evidence then we can do what we need to do...

fordfan25
08-25-2005, 09:58 AM
Originally posted by VW-IceFire:
Well lets gather evidence then. IF we've got the evidence then we can do what we need to do...


i nomanate TAGERT and skychimp. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

Tex-Hill-AVG
08-25-2005, 12:15 PM
Here's some basic data on the Hellcat from Zeno's

Grumman F6F-5 Vital Statistics
Type: Single seat carrier-based fighter/bomber

Powerplant: one 2,000-hp (1492-kW)Pratt & Whitney R-2800-10W Double Wasp 18 cylinder radial piston engine

Performance

Maximum Speed:

386 mph (621km/h) at medium altitudes

324 mph (521 km/h) at sea level

Initial Climb: 3,410ft (1039 fm) per minute

Service Ceiling: 37,300 ft (11369m)

Range: 1,040miles (1674 km)


http://www.zenoswarbirdvideos.com/F6F.html

Tex-Hill-AVG
08-25-2005, 12:19 PM
And more....

Combat Aircraft of the Pacific War

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Grumman F6F Hellcat
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v285/Tex_Hill/F6Fprofile.jpg

The Hellcat was the main shipboard fighter of the US Navy for the last two years of the Pacific War. During the Gilbert and Marshall Operations, the raid on Truk, in the Battle of the Philippine Sea and at Leyte Gulf, the entire fighter complement of the Fast Carrier Force consisted of F6Fs - at Philippine Sea Task Force 58 fielded some 450 fighters, all of them being F6F-3s, and at Leyte Gulf, as Task Force 38, the Carrier Force was equipped with nearly 550 fighters, all of them Hellcats. This illustrates the astounding degree of standardisation achieved in the American frontline forces, something made possible only by the vast output of US industry (this standardisation in its turn aiding efficiency in production).

The F6F was ordered for the US Navy after the initial shock of Allied contact with superior Japanese fighters, particularly the Mitsubishi A6M Zero, during the first few months of the Pacific War. As a result of this experience of combat against higher-performance machines the Hellcat's specification required the most powerful engine available. The prototype X6F-1, a progression from the F4F Wildcat which was then the standard fighter of the Navy, was provided with a 1700hp Wright R-2600 engine, but a month later - on 26 June1942 - it was re-engined with a 2000hp Pratt and Whitney R-2800 (the birth of the F6F therefore coinciding almost exactly with the great carrier Battle of Midway, 4-6 June 1942, in which its predecessor - the Grumman F4F Wildcat - played a critical role).

Production F6F-3s made their first combat flights on 31 August and 1 September1943, from the carriers Yorktown (CV10), Essex (CV9) and the light carrier Independence. The Hellcat immediately outclassed its opponents, having higher speed and rate-of-climb, being rugged and well-armoured but at the same time very maneuverable for such a large machine, and carrying a heavy and effective armament of six 0.5-inch Browning machine-guns with a large ammunition supply. The arrival of the F6Fs in late 1943, combined with the deployment of the new Essex and Independence Class carriers, immediately gave the US Pacific Fleet air supremacy wherever the Fast Carrier Force operated.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v285/Tex_Hill/F6F2.jpg

A total of 2,545 Hellcats were delivered in 1943, in 1944 no fewer than 6,139, and in 1945 a further 3,578 - total production was 12,272 units.

The Hellcat was eventually credited with destroying more than 6,000 Japanese aircraft - 4,947 of these by F6Fs of the USN carrier squadrons (209 of the others by land-based Marine Corps F6Fs, and the remainder by Hellcats of other Allied countries). The F6F's most spectacular exploit was the destruction of more than 160 enemy aircraft in one day - 19 June 1944 - in the Battle of the Philippine Sea, in the aerial massacre usually known as "The Great Marianas Turkey Shoot."

The F6F was also used extensively as a search aircraft and fighter-bomber, playing a major and increasing part in strikes on Japanese warships and mercantile shipping in 1944 and 1945. In this role, and for ground attack, it could carry up to 2,000 lb. of bombs, or be armed with six 5-inch rockets on underwing pylons.

Data
OriginGrumman Aircraft Engineering Corporation
TypeSingle-seat shipborne fighter - also fighter-bomber and night fighter

Dimensions
Span 42' 10" (13.05 metres) - Length 33' 7" (10.2 metres) - Height 13' 1" (3.99 metres)

Weight (F6F-3)
Empty 9,042 lb (4,101 kg) / Loaded (clean) 12,186 lb (5,528 kg) / Loaded (maximum) 14,250 lb (6,443 kg)

Engine
Early production - one 2,000 hp Pratt & Whitney R-2800-10 Double Wasp two-row radial
From Jan 1944 (final batch of F6F-3s) two-thirds had a 2,200 hp R-2800-10W (water-injection rating)

Armament
6 x 0.5 inch Browning machine-guns with 400 rounds per gun
( Some F6F-5 and F6F-5N Hellcats had 2 x 20 mm cannon plus 4 x 0.5 inch machine-guns)
Underwing attachments for six rockets
Centre-section pylons for up to 2,000 lb of bombs

Performance
Maximum speed (clean) 376 mph
Initial climb (typical) 3,240 feet per minute
Service ceiling 37,500 feet
Range 1,090 miles



http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v285/Tex_Hill/F6F-3s.jpg

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Acknowledgments
Main source for the above data is -
Bill Gunston's "Combat Aircraft of World War II" (Salamander, London 1978)
The F6F profile drawing is reproduced, with thanks, from -
"Jane's War at Sea 1897-1997 Centennial Edition" (London 1997)

Tex-Hill-AVG
08-25-2005, 12:27 PM
One more..

History: After early US Navy experience in the Pacific in the early months of WWII, and after consultation with Allied air forces in the European theater, Grumman began to develop a successor to their Wildcat fighter, to be called the Hellcat. Major design changes from the Wildcat included a low-mounted wing, wider landing gear which retracted into the wings, more powerful engine, improved cockpit armor plating, and increased ammunition capacity.

The Navy ordered four prototypes of the new airplane, each with a different engine for test and evaluation purposes. Less than a year later, on 26 June 1942, the first prototype (the XF6F-1, with a Wright R-2600 Cyclone engine) flew for the first time. Before much meaningful evaluation of the various engines could be made, however, the Navy decided to press the Hellcat into production by fitting the XF6F-1 prototype with the most powerful engine available, the Pratt & Whitney R-2800 Double Wasp. (This turned it into an XF6F-3. The XF6F-2 and XF6F-4 were never evaluated.)

The first production model, the F6F-3, first flew in October 1942, and deliveries began four months later with squadron VF-9 on the USS Essex in the Pacific. Extremely robust, powerful and maneuverable, the Hellcat was a potent force against the Japanese, and was credited with over three-quarters of the US Navy's air-to-air kills in the war.

The UK's Fleet Air Arm received 252 F6F-3s (designated Gannet Mk I) beginning in 1943. Meanwhile, in the US, over 200 Hellcats were modified as radar-equipped night fighters. During the F6F-3 production run, which lasted until April 1944, Grumman had developed an improved Hellcat, the F6F-5, which utilized a redesigned engine cowl, new ailerons, a strengthened tail, and a water-injection system for the engine, which added 10% to the takeoff performance and increased its armament-carrying capabilities. The F6F-5 was first flown on 4 April 1944, and production continued through November 1945. Over 900 more "Dash-5" Hellcats were delivered to the UK under the Lend-Lease program under the designation Hellcat Mk II.

Nicknames: Ace-Maker

Specifications (F6F-5):
Engine: 2000hp Pratt & Whitney R-2800-10W Double Wasp 18-cylinder radial piston engine
Weight: Empty 9150 lbs., Max Takeoff 15,410 lbs.
Wing Span: 42ft. 10in.
Length: 33ft. 7in.
Height: 13ft. 6in.
Performance:
Maximum Speed at 23,500 ft: 380mph
Cruising Speed at 6,000 ft: 168mph
Ceiling: 37,300 ft
Range: 1,530 miles with 150-gallon drop tank
Armament:
Six 12.7mm (0.5 inch) wing-mounted machine guns
Two 1,000-lb bombs, or six 127mm (5-inch) rockets

Number Built: 12,275

Number Still Airworthy: 8

Tex-Hill-AVG
08-25-2005, 12:32 PM
This is interesting as well as it relates to the Hellcat being designed as a direct result of the "Zero"


A Navy PBY, making a routine patrol, happened to pass over tiny Akutan Island and one of the observers aboard happened to notice a dark speck on the tundra below which appeared out of place. The pilot took the "Catalina" down to have a closer look. The speck turned out to be a Japanese aircraft, and even though it was upside down, it was almost immediately identified as a Zero. The radioman sent the coordinates and within hours a Navy recovery team was on the way to investigate. On arrival, the recovery team found the dead pilot, Flight Petty Officer Tadayoshi Koga still hanging in his seat harness. Koga had had engine problems and tried to land the plane on the flat tundra of the small island with the wheels down. The wheels dug in and flipped the Zero on its back, snapping F.P.O. Koga‚‚ā¨ôs neck in the process. The Zero was almost undamaged, even the engine looked to be in good shape aside from a broken oil line.

The Zero was dismantled and shipped directly to the Grumman Aircraft factory in California where it was reassembled and flown. The information gleaned from this fortunate incident put the finishing touches on the Hellcat. It was found the XF6F-1 was marginally slower than the Zero, thus the change from the Wright R-2600 to the Pratt-Whitney Double Wasp R-2800 with an output of 2,000 hp (1,493 kW) for take-off and 1,975 hp (1,474 kW) at 17,000 ft (5,182 m). This engine boosted the Hellcats top speed to 375 mph (604 k/hr), 29 mph (47 k/hr) faster than the Zero. No other unfavorable differences between the two planes could be found and the Hellcat was deemed ready for production. The finalized version of the XF6F-3 was almost identical to the production F6F-3 and Grumman shifted the assembly line into high gear.



From: http://www.aviation-history.com/grumman/f6f.html

Grey_Mouser67
08-25-2005, 04:22 PM
I don't know where it is...but we need to find the bit about the airspeed indicator being placed wrong...the Hellcat was much faster than those statistics say according to that information...then if it seems reasonable, we need to pitch a case to Oleg as to why that data is more believable than other data.

In addition, anyone have information on the cannon armed Hellcats? Some F6F-5's had inboard HMG's removed and Hispano's fitted...I'm thinking the ones that were involved with the Tirpitz raids were such armed aircraft.

I'll look but haven't found it yet

Tex-Hill-AVG
08-25-2005, 04:51 PM
Here's a photo that attests to the durability of the Hellcat

http://www.flightjournal.com/fj/images/plane_profiles/hellcat/shot_up.jpg
This photograph has the words "O'Hare's Favorite" written on the back, making reference to the Medal of Honor winner, Butch O'Hare. Over two hundred bullet holes were counted in the skin of this F6F-3. The Hellcat was a very rugged aircraft, and was able to absorb a great deal of punishment. Note the nine victory flags under the cockpit which indicate that this Hellcat did its share of dishing out punishment as well as taking it.

fordfan25
08-25-2005, 06:54 PM
Originally posted by Tex-Hill-AVG:
Here's a photo that attests to the durability of the Hellcat

http://www.flightjournal.com/fj/images/plane_profiles/hellcat/shot_up.jpg
This photograph has the words "O'Hare's Favorite" written on the back, making reference to the Medal of Honor winner, Butch O'Hare. Over two hundred bullet holes were counted in the skin of this F6F-3. The Hellcat was a very rugged aircraft, and was able to absorb a great deal of punishment. Note the nine victory flags under the cockpit which indicate that this Hellcat did its share of dishing out punishment as well as taking it.


propaganda be sure http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif lol by the way were did you find my family album? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

Bluedog72
08-27-2005, 12:06 AM
I never realised just how big the Hellcat is untill the other day I was fooling aound in the FMB and stuck a stationary F6F right on top of a stationary F-4U.
The Hog is allmost completely hidden by the Hellcat.
Tried it with a Hellcat and a Thunderbolt....we all know that the Jug is HUGE right? the Hellcat is bigger.

For an enourmous plane I reckon it handles like a dream.

fordfan25
08-27-2005, 12:10 PM
Originally posted by Bluedog72:
I never realised just how big the Hellcat is untill the other day I was fooling aound in the FMB and stuck a stationary F6F right on top of a stationary F-4U.
The Hog is allmost completely hidden by the Hellcat.
Tried it with a Hellcat and a Thunderbolt....we all know that the Jug is HUGE right? the Hellcat is bigger.

For an enourmous plane I reckon it handles like a dream.


"For an enourmous plane I reckon it handles like a dream"

thats what she said http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

huggy87
08-27-2005, 05:25 PM
Originally posted by Bluedog72:
I never realised just how big the Hellcat is untill the other day I was fooling aound in the FMB and stuck a stationary F6F right on top of a stationary F-4U.
The Hog is allmost completely hidden by the Hellcat.
Tried it with a Hellcat and a Thunderbolt....we all know that the Jug is HUGE right? the Hellcat is bigger.

For an enourmous plane I reckon it handles like a dream.

I never realized how large it was until I saw one the other day up close. It made the bearcat, zero, and wildcat look like toys. You can find a picture of me next to the thing on page 12 of the general discussion "what do you look like" thread.

Darkwolff57
08-27-2005, 06:05 PM
I get marvelous results by kicking in the supercharger at altitudes I'm not supposed to do it at, I live in Fresno, CA. just a spitball's throw from the Fresno/Yosemite Airport which used to be called "Hammer Field" back in WWII where they gave a good deal of final workouts & mods to a/c going either to the ETO, MTO or PTO. In just my neighborhood alone are 6 people, men & women, who worked on & flew most of our a/c & I've learned some great tricks from them on things you can do with Hellcats & other planes that aren't in the flight manuals. It's too bad that we'll never see the P-61 in IL2, but if you want to experience it then try the venerable old SDOE sim. I still play it & we're still making a/c, scenery & missions for the game. In fact, IL2 could take a few cues in just how a plane will really handle from SDOE, it might not have the graphics you find here, but the dogfights are no less tense in it

VMF-214_HaVoK
08-27-2005, 06:45 PM
Originally posted by fordfan25:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by VMF-214_HaVoK:
The Hellcat is still not up to specs. While the Wildcat and P-40 seem to be above specs. On a side note the FM2 is pos plane. Odd how there can be such a performace gap between the FM2 and Wildcat.

look in the object viewer on the FM2. is that rate of climb right. it sure seems if i remember right to indecate that the FM2 had almost twice the climb of the wildcat. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ya, but fly the FM2. Its total ****.

fordfan25
08-27-2005, 07:08 PM
Originally posted by VMF-214_HaVoK:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by fordfan25:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by VMF-214_HaVoK:
The Hellcat is still not up to specs. While the Wildcat and P-40 seem to be above specs. On a side note the FM2 is pos plane. Odd how there can be such a performace gap between the FM2 and Wildcat.

look in the object viewer on the FM2. is that rate of climb right. it sure seems if i remember right to indecate that the FM2 had almost twice the climb of the wildcat. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ya, but fly the FM2. Its total ****. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


yea i know. i tested in game today and the only deffernce in speed i saw was about 12k wich i think would translate into 4 MPH deff from the normal cat. hardly worth haveing to cruis at 99% to keep from useing up water boost and giveing up 2 .50bmg's. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/354.gif

joseph92371
08-28-2005, 07:52 AM
"I also agree with horseback in that dive acceleration even with the nose past 30deg is very sluggish--too much so"

Quote that I found interesting. This was probably for a different fm but seems to still apply

Grey_Mouser67
08-28-2005, 09:20 AM
Dive has always been off in this game...Hellcats were awesome diving aircraft...like the Jug. In fact, both Hellcats and Jugs suffered from compressibility and Jugs got dive breaks, but hellcats didn't.

Bearcats came with dive breaks however because of the experiences from Hellcats.

fordfan25
08-28-2005, 09:08 PM
Originally posted by Grey_Mouser67:
Dive has always been off in this game...Hellcats were awesome diving aircraft...like the Jug. In fact, both Hellcats and Jugs suffered from compressibility and Jugs got dive breaks, but hellcats didn't.

Bearcats came with dive breaks however because of the experiences from Hellcats.



shush man. dont say b e a r c a t out load youll make evry ki84 jocky in hear sh** his self http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

shinden1974
08-28-2005, 09:54 PM
Originally posted by fordfan25:
shush man. dont say b e a r c a t out load youll make evry ki84 jocky in hear sh** his self http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

I think your sig causes that every time you post! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

I like the hellcat, like every radial big engine, it's one of my favorites.

fordfan25
08-28-2005, 10:14 PM
Originally posted by shinden1974:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by fordfan25:
shush man. dont say b e a r c a t out load youll make evry ki84 jocky in hear sh** his self http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

I think your sig causes that every time you post! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

I like the hellcat, like every radial big engine, it's one of my favorites. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

LMAO 2 true broa 2 true http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

huggy87
09-04-2005, 11:12 PM
Originally posted by Darkwolff57:
I get marvelous results by kicking in the supercharger at altitudes I'm not supposed to do it at, I live in Fresno, CA. just a spitball's throw from the Fresno/Yosemite Airport which used to be called "Hammer Field" back in WWII where they gave a good deal of final workouts & mods to a/c going either to the ETO, MTO or PTO. In just my neighborhood alone are 6 people, men & women, who worked on & flew most of our a/c & I've learned some great tricks from them on things you can do with Hellcats & other planes that aren't in the flight manuals. It's too bad that we'll never see the P-61 in IL2, but if you want to experience it then try the venerable old SDOE sim. I still play it & we're still making a/c, scenery & missions for the game. In fact, IL2 could take a few cues in just how a plane will really handle from SDOE, it might not have the graphics you find here, but the dogfights are no less tense in it

Here is a shout out from Lemoore!

Hiriyu
09-05-2005, 04:36 AM
Originally posted by fordfan25:
"And, on the other side of the coin, the Hellcat could absorb unbelievable punishment and still bring the pilot back to his ship. Pilots tell of "mostly holes where the airplane used to be" and "more air was going through it than around it". One Hellcat had been burning for a hundred miles before landing on its carrier. Top Navy ace, David McCampbell told of watching the piston and connection rod "popping in and out" of the mangled Pratt-Whitney "Double Wasp" engine as he struggled to fly the pieces of his Hellcat back to the carrier. The Grumman Company itself was often referred to as the "Grumman Iron Works"." -

http://www.aviation-history.com/grumman/f6f.html
...

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

http://home.earthlink.net/~jeremymtc/images/wildcatdamg_17.jpg

http://home.earthlink.net/~jeremymtc/images/wildcatdamg_19.jpg

http://home.earthlink.net/~jeremymtc/images/wildcatdamg_21.jpg

...I had kind of wondered why my wingmen kept telling me to ditch http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

R_Target
09-05-2005, 11:08 AM
I was messing around with the P-40 for the first time in a good while and was surprised at how lively it is. Puts the poor Cats to shame. Seems strange to me.

sledgehammer2
09-05-2005, 10:18 PM
I was at 20,000' and seeing how it would it climb... piss poor. I could barely get to 24000' and about the best I could do was 140 KIAS. I was not using CEM. I love the F6F but will it ever grow some claws?

Bluedog72
09-07-2005, 11:13 AM
CEM must make a huge differance then,I just tried it with an F6F-5, 100% fuel, using CEM and that Kitty was still keen to climb at 27000 feet and when trimmed out for hands off level flight at that alt cruised along at 195 KIAS quite happily.
I kept RPM set at 2500 (prop pitch 90%)and manifold pressure at 41 inches (70% power most of the time)
From about 27000 up I had to use more and more throttle to maintain 41" MaP, reaching 99% throttle(full power, no water injection) with blower speed set to 3 at about 28100 or so, it would have climbed higher, but power was going to drop off rapidly after that.
I had the cowl flaps fully closed and despite the high power,low RPM setting, it showed no sign of overheating at any stage, including after 35 minutes tooling around at 28000ft.
All of this was at max continuous power settings, there was more available should the need arise, but only for short bursts.

Not saying the Hellcat is spot on, but it will do better than 140 KIAS at 24000, and it can certainly climb higher.
Its not much fun to fly up there though, its just too heavy and its wings are too short for that, then again, it was never meant to be a high altitude interceptor.