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View Full Version : I don't get it, why are dogfight servers so popular?



bracknell1989
11-18-2009, 09:15 AM
I can't remember the exact details but whilst looking through the updates for BOB I noted a comment on whether a detailed start up sequence would be included. The answer was no as the game would lean towards being tailored to online play.

Looking through Hyperlobby and other stat pages it's always the dogfight servers which are the most populated whilst those offering co-op are nearly always empty. People are forever complaining about performance issues either engine or ammunition when compared to historical data. This doesn't make sense to me, it seems the majority of people (I fly gmt evening hours) fly around alone on the server, the targets are usually in the same place and the majority of the time combat is 1v1.

I'm sorry if this seems to ramble a bit but I am confused by this trend.

Romanator21
11-18-2009, 10:11 AM
Consider that IL-2, though played by adults is probably geared towards the average teenage WWII flight nut. People also look to IL-2 as an escape from the drudgery of the everyday, so a few mindless and numbing 2 minute low level turn and burn sorties can be cathartic.

I personally prefer the 1 hour + Stuka sorties at 5000m+ or the high altitude Mustang escort patrol, but sometimes, I just need a mind numbing 15 min boom fest to ease the stress.

We are the minority mate, so we'll just have to wait until HL is populated enough on those Saturdays to host a nice Coop, or enjoy offline missions.

crucislancer
11-18-2009, 10:12 AM
They are popular because you tend to get to the action quite quickly. I don't think there is anything wrong with them, as there are plenty of options for everyone's tastes, usually. If I go for a dogfight server I prefer the ones that are more mission based so that you have objectives other then blowing **** up.

Jaws2002
11-18-2009, 10:26 AM
Originally posted by bracknell1989:
I don't get it, why are dogfight servers so popular?

Go try Rise of Flight. Those guys thought they don't need dogfight servers. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif they were thinking to school everyone in playing coops. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Their online lobby is always empty. You never find more then 10-15 people online. That game is a lot more advanced then Il-2, with significantly beter graphics, flight models, damage models and more fun planes. That game if it had a decent multiplayer had the chance to empty the hyperlobby. But they killed their own online game with the lousy coop only play. You get tired really quick to sit in the lobby for ten fifteen minutes waiting for the next mission, only to have the game crashing on you during mission loading over and over again.
Not everyone has the time to sit in the lobby, spending half the time we have, waiting for a mission to start.
Those dogfight servers in the hyperlobby kept the multiplayer part of this game alive for so long. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif
Coops are great and I love them too, but some times we just don't have time to wait that much for a fight.

Ba5tard5word
11-18-2009, 10:31 AM
There's probably a lot of people flying co-ops on their own servers that you don't see in HL.

xf86config
11-18-2009, 10:34 AM
They are arena's to hone your skills on and gain experience for CO-OP's and VOW's. Near instant gratification and you dont have to wait 20 mins for a CO-OP to populate or 40 mins for a VOW mission to populate.

Some folks grow out of them, some folks dont. It has no personal reflection on either, just different strokes for different folks.

If you want co-ops joining one of the larger squads is probably the way to go.

EAF602_Sporran

Urufu_Shinjiro
11-18-2009, 10:46 AM
Yeah, some of us have very little time to fly, if I went strictly for co-ops then by the time I took off and started heading for the first waypoint the wife would have a new chore for me to do, lol. With dogfights I can get in, get a couple of fights in, and get out before the warden is the wiser http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif

Chivas
11-18-2009, 10:53 AM
Over the years the more popular dogfight rooms weren't actually Dogfight rooms but 24/7 on-line wars with ground and air objectives for both sides. There actually Coops without the wait and run 24/7, a much better format than Coop rooms. Sure you will have some pilots only looking for a dogfight, but most of the pilots are co-ordinateing attacks on opposing air and ground forces and covering those attacks. The main objective is to help destroy the other teams ground forces and/or protect those that are. Individually you only get points or a percentage of those points by returning to a friendly base.

The only thing that would make it better is the use of the RRR mode which would require you to taxi to the RRR hardstand for Refueling etc. for the server set time limit. A simple start and shutdown procedure like magnetos, fuel *****, throttle and pitch adjustment would also be immersive.

I haven't flown on-line for a year or more so things could have changed. Warclouds was one of these very popular dogfight/online war rooms.

HayateAce
11-18-2009, 11:13 AM
Originally posted by Urufu_Shinjiro:
Yeah, some of us have very little time to fly, if I went strictly for co-ops then by the time I took off and started heading for the first waypoint the wife would have a new chore for me to do, lol. With dogfights I can get in, get a couple of fights in, and get out before the warden is the wiser http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

Mucho agree with Jaws, Romanator, et al on this one. My IL2 time comes out of an eyedropper these days, so the ability to join a server and find a scrap in 5-10 minutes is crucial for the game to be any fun at all. Last weekend's dogfight was 2 acres of fall leaves vs me and a tractor, which equaled -0- IL2. Maybe this weekend....

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/crackwhip.gif

MD_Titus
11-18-2009, 11:39 AM
mission based dogfight servers offer as much as coops, particularly those using the MDF mod. folk can wait for everyone to form up, or go lone wolfing/low level ground attack. the experience of any server depends entirely on the regulars. give ukded servers a shot, and you iwll more often than not find someone to wing with or go ground pounding with. SoV/SoF can be the same as well, dependent on map and pilots online. ukded3 is running the MDF and is mostly full switch with some adaptations. the problem with coops is that if you die early on, then you're sat waiting for an age for everyone else to finish. one mistake is awfully punishing, and if you have limited time then sat twiddling your thumbs is not the way most want to spend it.

just because a lot of servers are tailored purely to air to air doesn't mean you have to frequent them. go hunting, use the chat to see if anyone else wants to form up. you get out of it what you put in.

megalopsuche
11-18-2009, 11:48 AM
If I wanted to sight-see I would play MSFS. I'm one of those people who always uses accelerated time in offline campaigns to shorten the wait for the action to start.

RSS-Martin
11-18-2009, 12:00 PM
Rise of Flight might be interesting but they shot themselves in the foot with a few things.
I have always enjoyed the screen shots from that game, but there are at least two points that will keep me from buying it.
As to servers well the full real servers are not bad, as most kids want something fast and easy.

By the way even though I fly on dog fight servers, I donīt dog fight, is a bit silly with a bomber. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

na85
11-18-2009, 12:11 PM
Originally posted by bracknell1989:
I can't remember the exact details but whilst looking through the updates for BOB I noted a comment on whether a detailed start up sequence would be included. The answer was no as the game would lean towards being tailored to online play.

Looking through Hyperlobby and other stat pages it's always the dogfight servers which are the most populated whilst those offering co-op are nearly always empty. People are forever complaining about performance issues either engine or ammunition when compared to historical data. This doesn't make sense to me, it seems the majority of people (I fly gmt evening hours) fly around alone on the server, the targets are usually in the same place and the majority of the time combat is 1v1.

I'm sorry if this seems to ramble a bit but I am confused by this trend.

Because this game is about combat, and people enjoy combat, not hour-long flights before you even get to the objective.

bracknell1989
11-18-2009, 01:00 PM
but the combat in dogfight servers is completely different to what you get if say for example flights of four against four or bombing intercept missions. There are always examples in the forum of people complaining that they can't compete in dogfight servers in certain aircraft (fw 190 springs to mind) whereas in a objective based mission these aircraft do quite well. Flying in a dogfight even of small numbers say 12v12 is an experience that rarely seems to happen in dogfight servers.

I just don't like the idea that game development focues on milling around in an arena.

HayateAce
11-18-2009, 01:06 PM
If someone can't compete in a DF server with a Fw190, they're probably using a joystick made from LegosŪ on a Tandy with a 10" monitor. BnZ, or work even casually with another 190 and consider the server dominated.

TheFamilyMan
11-18-2009, 01:31 PM
Come on, lets call a spade a spade! DF servers are popular because it's the easiest macho way to show off and get your 'kill someone online' fix (a.k.a. airquake).

If you like coops, joining a squad that does coops is the way to go (if you got the time).

TS_Sancho
11-18-2009, 01:57 PM
I dunno about airquake but the entire reason I fly online is to compete against other people. If there is a macho ego component to it, I'm comfortable with that.

Not all the "dogfight" servers are about luftberries 500 meters above your or their airfield. I enjoy the whole ACM groove, my average sortie length is probobly 30 or 40 minutes (barring getting shot), I usually try to support my teammates and they usually do the same with the goal of winning whatever scenario the current map is reinacting.

It just depends on which server you choose, there is a lot of variety.

P.S. The fw190 as is arguably the most competent air superiority platform represented in IL2.

Ba5tard5word
11-18-2009, 02:40 PM
Last weekend's dogfight was 2 acres of fall leaves vs me and a tractor, which equaled -0- IL2.

Eh just apply 8 x .50 cals with incendiary rounds.

Xiolablu3
11-18-2009, 02:45 PM
Multiplayer IL2 dogfight servers are actually very like coops, except that every plane is flown by a real pilot.

Such as Ukded2, they havce objective orientated missions. Not just 'dogfight'.

The term dogfight server is a little misleading, as on the best servers there is not just dogfighting.

VMF-214_HaVoK
11-18-2009, 03:06 PM
Originally posted by bracknell1989:
I can't remember the exact details but whilst looking through the updates for BOB I noted a comment on whether a detailed start up sequence would be included. The answer was no as the game would lean towards being tailored to online play.

Looking through Hyperlobby and other stat pages it's always the dogfight servers which are the most populated whilst those offering co-op are nearly always empty. People are forever complaining about performance issues either engine or ammunition when compared to historical data. This doesn't make sense to me, it seems the majority of people (I fly gmt evening hours) fly around alone on the server, the targets are usually in the same place and the majority of the time combat is 1v1.

I'm sorry if this seems to ramble a bit but I am confused by this trend.

There is nothing to get really. People play games in whatever manner they deem fit. They play games to give them a feeling of pleasure. They do not play games to suit others needs.

S!

fabianfred
11-18-2009, 03:36 PM
The Coops have the advantage of AI flying too....and having some goal to the mission...
The beauty of the new MDS (Moving Dogfight Server) mod is that it is played in DF mode....but it also has AI and moving ships and ground vehicles and the ability to Rearm/Refuel/Repair your old plane instead of just hitting refly for a new one....then you can re-enter the same ongoing action....and if you die or bail you can also re-enter.. even with a different plane or from the other side.....and the server can set the number of times you die before being penalised.

bracknell1989
11-18-2009, 03:37 PM
There is nothing to get really. People play games in whatever manner they deem fit. They play games to give them a feeling of pleasure. They do not play games to suit others needs.

S![/QUOTE]

I am not suggesting that people play the game in a way that suits me, maybe I could phrase the question; "Why do people find dogfighting a pleasurable experience".

I mentioned the FW190 as an example (Like anything else it's easy once you know what to do, or more likely what not to do) but there are always topics similar to "why do i die when flying X plane in a dogfight server" but they're not being flown anything like the manner they would have been flown during the war - excluding the obvious simulation short comings eg risk of death, fire, drowning etc etc.

My point is it would seems wrong to develop new aircraft for whichever game based on the idea that a dogfight server scenario is somehow the norm. For sure it's fun to go head to head and of we all have time restrictions.

doraemil
11-18-2009, 06:06 PM
There is dogfight, then there is airquake.

I think the OP is referring to airquake.


It is true, the skies of fire / valor are the most popular . . .

next is rcaf . . .

then its usually spits vs / zekes vs / warclouds


i think lots of people like flying w/out the cockpit. That's a insta draw for popularity.


some reasons why ppl don't like coops:

Coops are great and fun but alot of people won't join if other members are red bars because then lag becomes an issue.


Given the mod fragmentation issue . . .and you've got issues. I've tried to join coops only to find I ain't got Mod X or Z, and need Y . . .


Along with the time it takes . . . And the problem is coops you don't always fly what you want. Sometimes its a bomber thing . . . and many want fighter action.
You have to work with your team for mods and lots would rather lone wolf it and not join, rather than show up and disrespect everyone.



Also serious squads meet up with other squads on certain servers running mission oriented maps and run their own "coops".


Coops can be ruined by just one person. Say someone goes in teamspeak and starts crying about how his girlfriend is pain in the arse, or flies some crap plane or goes off and does his own thing . . .



Wonderwoman view is just so easy and if you're flying a LA-7, you're basically able to avoid things on your six (unless a gang combines and goes after you, rare)

And in airquake you get all the planesets for all sides . . .

In airquake the FW190 is a sitting duck for the average to intermediate pilot, most experts are in the LA-7's . . . no one ever does team work, unless a squad shows up .. .


Ack I don't like airquake . . . Its starting to bug me when I'm blue and there's a Spit taking off on the same run away as fw190 next to him.

HayateAce
11-18-2009, 06:22 PM
Skies of Valor is neither airquake nor wonderwoman.

TS_Sancho
11-18-2009, 06:34 PM
Cough... Spits/109's http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

megalopsuche
11-18-2009, 07:22 PM
Originally posted by HayateAce:
Skies of Valor is neither airquake nor wonderwoman.

+1

Best server out there if you don't enjoy squinting looking for pixels on your monitor. Now if only they didn't have externals, it'd be perfect.

BillSwagger
11-18-2009, 07:54 PM
I can only add that what you get out of playing Il2 varies greatly depending on the servers you play on.
Obviously, people stick to what they find more appealing to them.

I also think there is only so much that i can get out of playing Il2, being that we aren't able to command tanks, or drop paratroopers to conquer a map. However, I will say that there is enough content and game play to keep me entertained for a couple hours. Best of all its FREE to play online, which is a rarity for most online flight simming.

With that said, enjoy it for what it is.



Bill

Gammelpreusse
11-19-2009, 02:07 AM
The answer may be more easily explainable. During the week, after work, few have the energy to get into historical servers, fly around for hours without encountering a bogey or even worse, getting shot down on a regular basis for not having gotten into the map dynamics in time. It does not help many historical servers often sport a rather limited map count, getting repetitive quite fast, and huge distances to cover before getting into any sort of action. UK3 is a cool exception of that rule (despite their use of icons, ugh).

Dogfight, even airquake servers offer a much faster way for satisfaction. Nothing wrong with that at all, imho.

cmirko
11-19-2009, 05:17 AM
my squadron hosts the longest standing dedicated coop server on HL - 102nd_COOP_ded try it sometimes http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

more info in my signature...

cheers

ROXunreal
11-19-2009, 05:24 AM
Originally posted by HayateAce:
If someone can't compete in a DF server with a Fw190, they're probably using a joystick made from LegosŪ on a Tandy with a 10" monitor. BnZ, or work even casually with another 190 and consider the server dominated.

Lol are we playing the same game?

rnzoli
11-19-2009, 06:14 AM
Originally posted by BillSwagger:
I also think there is only so much that i can get out of playing Il2, being that we aren't able to command tanks, or drop paratroopers to conquer a map.
*cough, cough* we actually are
SEOW (http://seowhq.net/seowforum/)
OK, maybe not for everyone, but it's possible and work.

And limited ground war influence can become also a reality in online DCG campaigns as well. Such commanding capabilitiesis raise the immersion to a whole new level.

rnzoli
11-19-2009, 06:22 AM
Originally posted by bracknell1989:
My point is it would seems wrong to develop new aircraft for whichever game based on the idea that a dogfight server scenario is somehow the norm. For sure it's fun to go head to head and of we all have time restrictions.

It's a valid point.
Luckily, the dogfight servers aren't the norm, they are only more visible than any other form of playing IL-2. Besides those players, you have the offliners and people flying in co-ops (now with up to 128 players). Finally the core developers are more interested in aviation and history than making quick (but smaller) bucks with pay-as-you-play.

The only reason we need the crowd on the dogfigt servers in order to get our historical planes at a lower price per user. If they paid for their game, they can whine as much as they wish! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif It's part of the memorable IL-2 experiences, if you missed it, you haven't played IL-2 enough.

Gammelpreusse
11-19-2009, 06:23 AM
I think he is talking dogfight maps, like in the old Aces High or Air Warrior online games, where you could drop paratroopers on an enemy airfield to capture and use it while the map was still running. Only after boming away it's whole infrastructure, that is.

Gave quite some goal and meaning for and to teamwork.

na85
11-19-2009, 06:39 AM
Originally posted by bracknell1989:
but the combat in dogfight servers is completely different to what you get if say for example flights of four against four or bombing intercept missions. There are always examples in the forum of people complaining that they can't compete in dogfight servers in certain aircraft (fw 190 springs to mind) whereas in a objective based mission these aircraft do quite well. Flying in a dogfight even of small numbers say 12v12 is an experience that rarely seems to happen in dogfight servers.

I just don't like the idea that game development focues on milling around in an arena.

I think you have a skewed perception of dogfight servers...

Try joining spits/109s or warclouds and you'll find it's very objective based.

Plus... a flight of 4 vs another flight of 4 is IMO far less realistic than unpredictable enounters, getting separated, etc etc.

na85
11-19-2009, 06:41 AM
Originally posted by ROXunreal:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by HayateAce:
If someone can't compete in a DF server with a Fw190, they're probably using a joystick made from LegosŪ on a Tandy with a 10" monitor. BnZ, or work even casually with another 190 and consider the server dominated.

Lol are we playing the same game? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm not sure which game you're playing, but I agree with Hayate. The FW190 is an excellent aircraft.

ROXunreal
11-19-2009, 06:47 AM
Originally posted by na85:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ROXunreal:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by HayateAce:
If someone can't compete in a DF server with a Fw190, they're probably using a joystick made from LegosŪ on a Tandy with a 10" monitor. BnZ, or work even casually with another 190 and consider the server dominated.

Lol are we playing the same game? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm not sure which game you're playing, but I agree with Hayate. The FW190 is an excellent aircraft. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

And I agree with that as well. (hell I fly it all the time). But to say that even 2 190's in unorganized teamwork "dominate" a server is absurd. I've shot down 2x team working 190 with both a Ki-84 and my own A9 once. A server can just as easily be dominated by organized P-47's, or Corsairs, or J2M's, or whatever.

Manu-6S
11-19-2009, 06:55 AM
Originally posted by ROXunreal:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by na85:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ROXunreal:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by HayateAce:
If someone can't compete in a DF server with a Fw190, they're probably using a joystick made from LegosŪ on a Tandy with a 10" monitor. BnZ, or work even casually with another 190 and consider the server dominated.

Lol are we playing the same game? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm not sure which game you're playing, but I agree with Hayate. The FW190 is an excellent aircraft. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

And I agree with that as well. (hell I fly it all the time). But to say that even 2 190's in unorganized teamwork "dominate" a server is absurd. I've shot down 2x team working 190 with both a Ki-84 and my own A9 once. A server can just as easily be dominated by organized P-47's, or Corsairs, or J2M's, or whatever. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Right.. Hayate doesn't understand that 2 Spitfires at 6000m can dominate 2 FW190s on the deck.

If FW190 rules on server it's because Red noobs fly with no SA and no tactic... they stay low and die. Something that Blue pilots must understand ASAP.

4 P51s vs 4 190s at same altitude the P51s always win if fled correclty.

HayateAce
11-19-2009, 07:14 AM
Sorry guys, I left off some info. The 190 players are assumed not to be 3-day noobs (most either completely give up the 190 or become a lifer), and also assumed any Spitty players on the server are of the typical low level rag and bone men. As for flying around in a 190 on the deck, now THAT's absurd.

Manu-6S
11-19-2009, 07:21 AM
Originally posted by cmirko:
my squadron hosts the longest standing dedicated coop server on HL - 102nd_COOP_ded try it sometimes http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

more info in my signature...

cheers

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

HayateAce
11-19-2009, 07:26 AM
Manu, I understand dynamics of the DF, just fine.

I left out any particulars, but anyone who has played this game or visited these forums for a few months already understands that aircraft like the P47 or 190 are not to be flown on the deck. Next, who said anything about Spitfires? The original comment was:


There are always examples in the forum of people complaining that they can't compete in dogfight servers in certain aircraft (fw 190 springs to mind)

I don't know why you need to mention Spitfires. For a little clarification. If 2 190s hang around in the same map grid (I'd call that loose) and even simply use team chat, they will get kills and at the very least RTB most of the time. Get in trouble? Type HELP to your team mate, give him the keypad number and input small jinks as you run away. Most of the time, and especially in non-external servers, the pursuers lock eyes on target and the next thing they see is both wings fly off with one burst of mr 190s buddy.

Domination.

(Of course the red player was stupid in this instance)

As far as your assertion about P47s doing the same? Not so fast. The fact that the gunnery is much more difficult, and at the same time not nearly as effective puts the Jug at about 7, where the 190 is 10. Historical, I think not. The simplified DMs of IL2 don't allow the HMG's to perform correctly.

Manu-6S
11-19-2009, 07:41 AM
Originally posted by HayateAce:
Manu, I understand dynamics of the DF, just fine.

I left out any particulars, but anyone who has played this game or visited these forums for a few months already understands that aircraft like the P47 or 190 are not to be flown on the deck. Next, who said anything about Spitfires? The original comment was:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">There are always examples in the forum of people complaining that they can't compete in dogfight servers in certain aircraft (fw 190 springs to mind)

I don't know why you need to mention Spitfires. For a little clarification. If 2 190s hang around in the same map grid (I'd call that loose) and even simply use team chat, they will get kills and at the very least RTB most of the time. Get in trouble? Type HELP to your team mate, give him the keypad number and input small jinks as you run away. Most of the time, and especially in non-external servers, the pursuers lock eyes on target and the next thing they see is both wings fly off with one burst of mr 190s buddy.

Domination.

(Of course the red player was stupid in this instance)

As far as your assertion about P47s doing the same? Not so fast. The fact that the gunnery is much more difficult, and at the same time not nearly as effective puts the Jug at about 7, where the 190 is 10. Historical, I think not. The simplified DMs of IL2 don't allow the HMG's to perform correctly. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Right Hayate, I've mentioned Spitfire since they are FW190 killers (Mk9 and Mk8 of course) but are usually the most preferred prey of the Wulfs.

And you know, I always must ***** about Spitfires!! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

You describe the DnB tactic, where the Red pilot is chasing the faster Blue plane (so It must be a Spitfire I think http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif) and he's dumb enought to not watch his back.

Now a problem of the DF server is really that many are not used to fly in a realistic way (see K/D more important than Kills like many veterans do). So there is always a a great number of prey for a 190.

So you are right here, the expert 190 pilot never return back without kills (as I was witness in spitvs109 years ago)

Jaws2002
11-19-2009, 10:34 AM
The fw-190 stoped being a rewarding exclusive bird many years ago.