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crazyivan1970
06-14-2006, 11:55 AM
I posted this couple of years ago, this is from wings.ru artice on P-47 in soviet service during GPW. I did rough translation back then and now reposting it since lend lease discussions are still on http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

1944 and 1945 ³.³. The press-service of firm Republic very much frequently published a symbolical picture of four fighters -47 "Thunderbolt" in colors of the Air Forces of USA, the Great Britain, Brazil and Soviet Union. But " group portrait " does not suffice only "Thunderbolt" with a cocarde of the French Air Forces. Within the second world war fighters -47 consist in arcenal of the Air Forces of five states.

By quantity(amount) received "Thunderbolt" Soviet Union takes the fourth place. William Green in the fundamental work " Warplanes of the Second World War " speaks about 203 sent of USA in USSR "Thunderbolt" of variants P-47D-22-RE and P-47D-27-RE, 196 planes, according to Green, has reached the addressee. The information from archive of the general Staff of the Air Forces of the Soviet Army differs not strongly - 190 fighters -47 is received in 1944 and five - in 1945. Probably, in the Soviet archive one more is not taken into account(discounted) plane - P-47D-10-RE factory number 42-75202 bought on collected American senators of means, this plane has received an own name " Knight of Pythias ". It(him) tested in middle of 1944 in scientific research institute of the Air Forces and "˜˜.

"Thunderbolt" has disappointed soviet pilots - verifiers. One of best engineers - test pilots Mark Lazarevich Gallaj said about flight on -47:

" First minutes of flight I knew this is not a fighter! Steady, with comfortable spacious cockpit, convenient, but - not a fighter. "Thunderbolt" had not acceptable maneuverability in horizontal and it is especial in vertical . The plane slowly was dispersed - inertia of heavy aircraft had an effect. But "Thunderbolt" is wonderful for simple flight on a route without sharp maneuvers. It is not enough for a fighter ."

Not really different opinion about "Thunderbolt" from pilots had Soviet aviation ingineers. Not looking at the licked forms of a fuselage and apparent perfection of aerodynamics, factor CX at "Thunderbolt" appeared less than at main German fighters Bf. 109G and Fw-190A. Interest has caused not the plane, but turbocharger , the engine, the aviation equipment. The plane have disassembled "by bones" and have carefully studied in the Bureau of new engineering comission (ИТ КП). Experts ИТ have let out in Russian the full description on fighter -47. Engineers have made conclusions also concerning quality and methods of manufacturing of units and units that flew American fighter, having noted, that on a technological level Soviet aviation industry lags behind from American.

Front pilots of Air Force have not estimated highly a transatlantic miracle. The escort of heavy bombers in 1944 at Soviet Union was not the slightest need - all weight of war was born(carried) on itself with front aircraft. Air fights on the soviet-German front were conducted at heights below 6000 m, just at those heights where "TBOLT" more all resembled a flying target. On small heights -47 lost on all aspects to any Soviet or german fighter of a sample of 1944. The interesting fact - it is possible, that americans tried to improve manuevering qualities of "Soviet" "Thunderbolt", delivering them with already removed(taken off) external machine guns. Actually "Thunderbolt" repeated a history of soviet fighter MIG- 3 - outstanding at high alt and clumsy at the ground. This type of plane in Air Force during the war appeared dead.

Certainly, it is necessary to take into account, that the opinion of the Soviet pilots and engineers was generated on base of fighter P-47D-10-RE. On landlease planes P-47D-22-RE and -47D-27-RE were delivered equiped with more powerful engines R-2800-59. In the West the opinion is distributed, that Russian is simple not that machine tested, a P-47D-22 and -47D-27 arrived too late. All course of air war on East front speaks that heavy high-altitude fighters here did not get accustomed. Heavy appeared even Fw-190 - fighter, which at the front Western was famous for its maneuverability. In Red Army all high-altitude fighters were deployed in regiments of air defence. Сн?Ñ"?л? such уÑ"?сÑ"ÑŒ has comprehended(overtaken) an MIG - 3, then "Spitfire" and finally "Thunderbolt". A unique place where appear they year earlier, "Thunderbolt" still could show itself, there was an aircraft of navy fleet.

Majority of "Thunderbolt" came to Soviet Union southern way in the extent of 26 000 kms (the way borrowed(occupied) 42 day) from NY in the Persian port Abadan. In Abadan planes collected under supervision of military representatives of Air Forces, then tested then pilots of 6-th regiment would fly "Thunderbolt" on a route Abadan - Tegeran-Kirovobad. In Kirovabad planes accepted 11-th spare bomber regiment. On rout in the extent of 1450 kms pilots it was necessary to overcome two mountain ridges. With intermediate landing(planting) in Teheran extent without landing flight up to Kirovobad over Iran was reduced up to 754 kms.

Pair fighters P-47D-30 from 397-th squadron of 368-th group in flight above Germany in the summer 1945. It red - yellow-red strips around of fuselages were are put after the termination(ending) of war with Germany for fast identification of "friendly" planes, it is obvious - "unfriendly" planes bore(carried) red stars. A strip on vertical plumage, antiglare a strip before a lantern of a cabin and a triangular strip onboard a fuselage - .yellow.

First fighters "Thunderbolt" of the profit on air station 11-³о "BAP August, 24, 1944. The order was given to this day on a 30th regiment, which stated that fighters P-47D-22-RE were accepted in service equipped with engines R-2800-59 with factory numbers 42-25611 and 42-26633. Large deliveries have begun hardly later. According to orders "" 36, 38 and 39 from December, 22, 1944 on arms of a part planes P-47D-22-RE with factory numbers 42-25541, 543-7, 552, 553, 555, 557, 559, 560-564, 566-568, 570, 574, 576-580, 582, 583, 586, 591, 594, 595, 600-610, 612, 614-617, 619-628, 631, 634, 636-638 - only 62 planes have acted(arrived). Then were accepted 47 fighters P-47D-27-RE with factory numbers 42-27015, 018, 019, 021, 0222, 025-029, 031-033, 037, 038, 042-044, 050, 052-055, 058, 061, 116, 117, 123, 129, 130-132, 134, 140, 141, 144, 149, 150, 154, 156, 157, 159, 160,162 and 163. Thus, 11-th ZBAP has received 111 "Thunderbolts".

In 1945 "Thunderbolts" arrived to an arrangement of 11-th ZBAP two parties(sets), April, 21 - two P-47D-27 release of a factory in Fermigdale (factory numbers 42-27136 and 42-27146) and April, 27 - four more similar fighters (factory numbers 42-25551, 587, 590 and 593).

All histories about delivery "Thunderbolt" to Soviet Union northern escorts through Murmansk or on route Alaska - Siberia are pure tale. Fighters -347 arrived to the USSR only southern way through Iran. Technical specialists of the Air Force finished (or in general changed) radio stations " Thunderbolt" under frequencies, used in the Soviet aircraft; respondents of the radar-tracking systems of recognition" the - another's " were removed. Recognition symbols on P-47D-22-RE were recoloured - red stars with white - red border were rendered. On intended for delivery in USSR P-47D-27-RE red stars were painted direct at a factory firm Republic. As a rule they were painted in the same locations and the same sizes, as recognition symbols of the Air Forces of USA, frequently a red star was painted in a white circle.

Into structure of 11-th 3BAP entered 4 squadrons on the basis of 1-st and 2-nd preparation bombing crews was conducted, on the basis of 3-rd and 4-th - preparation of pilots, mainly for planes P-39N/Q. In official documentation of 11-th 3BAP -47 is called "Thunderbolt". The quantity(amount) of pilots in regiments that were trained on "Thunderbolt" is insignificant: 12 pilots in 1944 and in 1945

Before the termination(ending) of war in Europe -47 and have not appeared on arms of front parts of Air Force. Almost all "Thunderbolt" were going in fighter regiments of Southwest district of air defence. This significant aviation group was generated December, 24, 1944 for covering means of communication of 1-st, 2-nd, 3-rd and 4-th Ukrainian fronts in Romania, Hungary and Czechoslovakia.

The first 11 "Thunderbolt" (ten P-47D-22-RE with factory numbers 42-25544, 547, 555, 557, 564, 570, 604, 610, 622 and 638, one P-47D-27-RE with з?²о´Ñº¸м number 42-27026) the profit on located in 50 km to the south Kiev air station White Church May, 31, 1945. In June, 1945 fighters devided by regiments. June, 12 to armies arrived 18 more planes P-47D-22-RE (factory numbers 42-25543, 560, 563, 678, 593, 600, 601, 605, 606, 609, 611, 614617, 619, 621, 628, 633 and 634) and one P-47D-27-RE with factory number July, 42-27038.11 arrived the third party(set): 17 planes R-47D-22-RE (factory numbers 42-2552, 556,567,580,582, 583,691, 594,602,603, 607, 616, 624-627 and 631) and two P-47D-27-RE with factory numbers 42-27132 and 42-27154.

Fighters -47 not long left on arms of parts of Soviet air defence. According to the agreement about landlease the majority of planes have returned to Americans. " Thunderbolt" in air station Stryj (80 kms jugo-to the west of Lvov) where them also overate to representatives of USA. Americans have considered economically not acceptable to drag back bunch of becoming unnecessary fighters. Was accepted decision to result planes in unsuitable in flights condition, as the tool for such work tanks in the best way came. Destruction "Thunderbolt" has borrowed(occupied) a lot of time - all winter 1945-46 ³.³. Vigilance of representatives of USA observing behind process, ¿осÑ"оянно was exposed to temptations. The matter is that representatives of the West piously trusting in ideals free face to face have met an animal grin of injurious socialism and couldn`t handle temptations. Simple Soviet people have learned trustful as babies 100 % yank to drink everyone alkohol muck from an aviation facilities(economy) - vodka, moonshine and especially not whisky, and any liquor the chassis! Moreover, barbarians ate while drinking alcohol the Ukrainian bacon, which represented simply saulted pig fat - bacon. The nightmare consist that drank liquor the chassis and guzzled "bacon" directly open-air day after day! Poor Americans were involved in process so, that began to change "bacon" at local population for suitable details in facilities(economy) "Thunderbolt". As is known, the Ukrainian peasant better the Soviet ensign - at a crest any detail in a facilities(an economy) is useful. And here - aviation hours, ºолбоÑ"º¸, jars from stainless still or aluminium, and what remarkable coils were made from pipelines! In general(common), business and friendship of peoples blossomed in air station Old without dependence from bitter colds. Thunderbolts were turned into kitchen tools

In aircraft of the Navy of the USSR fighter -47 has received 255-th IAP Air Forces North fleet. "Thunderbolt" in this regiment was not the first American plane, mastered by pilots. In 1943 of 255-th IAP got -39 "Aircobra" modification "N" and "Q". The Soviet sea pilots successfully fought on "Cobra" so July, 16, 1943 lieutenant V.A.Burmatov on P-39N has brought down Hans Dyobriha from II./JG-5, the expert with 65 victories. First P-47D-22-RE 255-th IAP has received October, 29, 1944

Command of sea aircraft has decided to recheck results fligth tests P-47D-10-RE in Aviation Institute. The aircraft of the Navy of the USSR had no own test base, that`s why have decided to test "Thunderbolt" using skilled front line fighters from 255-th IAP.

Test flights took place from October, 29 till November, 5, 1944, simultaneously it was investigated possiblity basings "Thunderbolt" in polar air stations. Despite of a deadline the program of tests looked rather sated:

- Rise and landing(planting) with concrete and ground strips with full loading;
- Definition of fighting radius combat with various to variants bomb loadings on an external suspension bracket: 2Ñ...¤И-250 (on a bomb on underwing mount), 3Ñ...¤И-250 (two bombs on underwing and one on underfusulage units of a suspension bracket), 2Ñ...¤И-500;
- Bombing from a dive;
- Dive bombing with height 20-25 m on a distance of 150-170 m from the purpose.

Results of tests as a whole appeared favorable. The plane with two bombs ¤И-250 normally flied up from air station Vaenga. Dump of bombs was made in a dive under a corner 50 hailstones from height of 3000 m, aiming at bombing occured on regular machine-gun gunsight. Bombing by three FAB-250 or to two FAB-500 have found possible(probable) to carry out only from horizontal flight. The endurance(quotation) from " the Report on tests of plane P-47D-22-RE " Thunderbolt" below is given.

From the commander of the Air Forces of Council of Federation of the general - lieutenant of aircraft Preobrazhenski " 08489 from November, 13, 1944
The official report to the Commander of the Air Forces of the Navy of the USSR
To marshal Zhavoronkovu I Report, that by results of flight test plane P-47D-22-RE " Thunderbolt" of serial construction by me the decision on arms of one squadron of 255-th IAP is accepted 14 planes " Thunderbolt".

The squadron will carry out the following problems(tasks):
1. Distant support Bombers
2. Horizontal and low-level bombing at the rate of bombing loadings up to 1000 kg on one plane
3. Attack of the ships escorts

The marshal of Larks has appended instructions on the document: " I Approve. Equip regiments and allocate 50 planes ".

In 255-th IAP "Thunderbolt" (basically P-47D-27-RE with bubble canopy) were maintained within one year after the termination(ending) of war, longer, than no matter where in the USSR. The way sea "Thunderbolt" finished almost the same as also them brothers from parts of air defence - in a ravine on the side of Vaengi under caterpillars(tracks) of tractors.

crazyivan1970
06-14-2006, 11:55 AM
I posted this couple of years ago, this is from wings.ru artice on P-47 in soviet service during GPW. I did rough translation back then and now reposting it since lend lease discussions are still on http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

1944 and 1945 ³.³. The press-service of firm Republic very much frequently published a symbolical picture of four fighters -47 "Thunderbolt" in colors of the Air Forces of USA, the Great Britain, Brazil and Soviet Union. But " group portrait " does not suffice only "Thunderbolt" with a cocarde of the French Air Forces. Within the second world war fighters -47 consist in arcenal of the Air Forces of five states.

By quantity(amount) received "Thunderbolt" Soviet Union takes the fourth place. William Green in the fundamental work " Warplanes of the Second World War " speaks about 203 sent of USA in USSR "Thunderbolt" of variants P-47D-22-RE and P-47D-27-RE, 196 planes, according to Green, has reached the addressee. The information from archive of the general Staff of the Air Forces of the Soviet Army differs not strongly - 190 fighters -47 is received in 1944 and five - in 1945. Probably, in the Soviet archive one more is not taken into account(discounted) plane - P-47D-10-RE factory number 42-75202 bought on collected American senators of means, this plane has received an own name " Knight of Pythias ". It(him) tested in middle of 1944 in scientific research institute of the Air Forces and "˜˜.

"Thunderbolt" has disappointed soviet pilots - verifiers. One of best engineers - test pilots Mark Lazarevich Gallaj said about flight on -47:

" First minutes of flight I knew this is not a fighter! Steady, with comfortable spacious cockpit, convenient, but - not a fighter. "Thunderbolt" had not acceptable maneuverability in horizontal and it is especial in vertical . The plane slowly was dispersed - inertia of heavy aircraft had an effect. But "Thunderbolt" is wonderful for simple flight on a route without sharp maneuvers. It is not enough for a fighter ."

Not really different opinion about "Thunderbolt" from pilots had Soviet aviation ingineers. Not looking at the licked forms of a fuselage and apparent perfection of aerodynamics, factor CX at "Thunderbolt" appeared less than at main German fighters Bf. 109G and Fw-190A. Interest has caused not the plane, but turbocharger , the engine, the aviation equipment. The plane have disassembled "by bones" and have carefully studied in the Bureau of new engineering comission (ИТ КП). Experts ИТ have let out in Russian the full description on fighter -47. Engineers have made conclusions also concerning quality and methods of manufacturing of units and units that flew American fighter, having noted, that on a technological level Soviet aviation industry lags behind from American.

Front pilots of Air Force have not estimated highly a transatlantic miracle. The escort of heavy bombers in 1944 at Soviet Union was not the slightest need - all weight of war was born(carried) on itself with front aircraft. Air fights on the soviet-German front were conducted at heights below 6000 m, just at those heights where "TBOLT" more all resembled a flying target. On small heights -47 lost on all aspects to any Soviet or german fighter of a sample of 1944. The interesting fact - it is possible, that americans tried to improve manuevering qualities of "Soviet" "Thunderbolt", delivering them with already removed(taken off) external machine guns. Actually "Thunderbolt" repeated a history of soviet fighter MIG- 3 - outstanding at high alt and clumsy at the ground. This type of plane in Air Force during the war appeared dead.

Certainly, it is necessary to take into account, that the opinion of the Soviet pilots and engineers was generated on base of fighter P-47D-10-RE. On landlease planes P-47D-22-RE and -47D-27-RE were delivered equiped with more powerful engines R-2800-59. In the West the opinion is distributed, that Russian is simple not that machine tested, a P-47D-22 and -47D-27 arrived too late. All course of air war on East front speaks that heavy high-altitude fighters here did not get accustomed. Heavy appeared even Fw-190 - fighter, which at the front Western was famous for its maneuverability. In Red Army all high-altitude fighters were deployed in regiments of air defence. Сн?Ñ"?л? such уÑ"?сÑ"ÑŒ has comprehended(overtaken) an MIG - 3, then "Spitfire" and finally "Thunderbolt". A unique place where appear they year earlier, "Thunderbolt" still could show itself, there was an aircraft of navy fleet.

Majority of "Thunderbolt" came to Soviet Union southern way in the extent of 26 000 kms (the way borrowed(occupied) 42 day) from NY in the Persian port Abadan. In Abadan planes collected under supervision of military representatives of Air Forces, then tested then pilots of 6-th regiment would fly "Thunderbolt" on a route Abadan - Tegeran-Kirovobad. In Kirovabad planes accepted 11-th spare bomber regiment. On rout in the extent of 1450 kms pilots it was necessary to overcome two mountain ridges. With intermediate landing(planting) in Teheran extent without landing flight up to Kirovobad over Iran was reduced up to 754 kms.

Pair fighters P-47D-30 from 397-th squadron of 368-th group in flight above Germany in the summer 1945. It red - yellow-red strips around of fuselages were are put after the termination(ending) of war with Germany for fast identification of "friendly" planes, it is obvious - "unfriendly" planes bore(carried) red stars. A strip on vertical plumage, antiglare a strip before a lantern of a cabin and a triangular strip onboard a fuselage - .yellow.

First fighters "Thunderbolt" of the profit on air station 11-³о "BAP August, 24, 1944. The order was given to this day on a 30th regiment, which stated that fighters P-47D-22-RE were accepted in service equipped with engines R-2800-59 with factory numbers 42-25611 and 42-26633. Large deliveries have begun hardly later. According to orders "" 36, 38 and 39 from December, 22, 1944 on arms of a part planes P-47D-22-RE with factory numbers 42-25541, 543-7, 552, 553, 555, 557, 559, 560-564, 566-568, 570, 574, 576-580, 582, 583, 586, 591, 594, 595, 600-610, 612, 614-617, 619-628, 631, 634, 636-638 - only 62 planes have acted(arrived). Then were accepted 47 fighters P-47D-27-RE with factory numbers 42-27015, 018, 019, 021, 0222, 025-029, 031-033, 037, 038, 042-044, 050, 052-055, 058, 061, 116, 117, 123, 129, 130-132, 134, 140, 141, 144, 149, 150, 154, 156, 157, 159, 160,162 and 163. Thus, 11-th ZBAP has received 111 "Thunderbolts".

In 1945 "Thunderbolts" arrived to an arrangement of 11-th ZBAP two parties(sets), April, 21 - two P-47D-27 release of a factory in Fermigdale (factory numbers 42-27136 and 42-27146) and April, 27 - four more similar fighters (factory numbers 42-25551, 587, 590 and 593).

All histories about delivery "Thunderbolt" to Soviet Union northern escorts through Murmansk or on route Alaska - Siberia are pure tale. Fighters -347 arrived to the USSR only southern way through Iran. Technical specialists of the Air Force finished (or in general changed) radio stations " Thunderbolt" under frequencies, used in the Soviet aircraft; respondents of the radar-tracking systems of recognition" the - another's " were removed. Recognition symbols on P-47D-22-RE were recoloured - red stars with white - red border were rendered. On intended for delivery in USSR P-47D-27-RE red stars were painted direct at a factory firm Republic. As a rule they were painted in the same locations and the same sizes, as recognition symbols of the Air Forces of USA, frequently a red star was painted in a white circle.

Into structure of 11-th 3BAP entered 4 squadrons on the basis of 1-st and 2-nd preparation bombing crews was conducted, on the basis of 3-rd and 4-th - preparation of pilots, mainly for planes P-39N/Q. In official documentation of 11-th 3BAP -47 is called "Thunderbolt". The quantity(amount) of pilots in regiments that were trained on "Thunderbolt" is insignificant: 12 pilots in 1944 and in 1945

Before the termination(ending) of war in Europe -47 and have not appeared on arms of front parts of Air Force. Almost all "Thunderbolt" were going in fighter regiments of Southwest district of air defence. This significant aviation group was generated December, 24, 1944 for covering means of communication of 1-st, 2-nd, 3-rd and 4-th Ukrainian fronts in Romania, Hungary and Czechoslovakia.

The first 11 "Thunderbolt" (ten P-47D-22-RE with factory numbers 42-25544, 547, 555, 557, 564, 570, 604, 610, 622 and 638, one P-47D-27-RE with з?²о´Ñº¸м number 42-27026) the profit on located in 50 km to the south Kiev air station White Church May, 31, 1945. In June, 1945 fighters devided by regiments. June, 12 to armies arrived 18 more planes P-47D-22-RE (factory numbers 42-25543, 560, 563, 678, 593, 600, 601, 605, 606, 609, 611, 614617, 619, 621, 628, 633 and 634) and one P-47D-27-RE with factory number July, 42-27038.11 arrived the third party(set): 17 planes R-47D-22-RE (factory numbers 42-2552, 556,567,580,582, 583,691, 594,602,603, 607, 616, 624-627 and 631) and two P-47D-27-RE with factory numbers 42-27132 and 42-27154.

Fighters -47 not long left on arms of parts of Soviet air defence. According to the agreement about landlease the majority of planes have returned to Americans. " Thunderbolt" in air station Stryj (80 kms jugo-to the west of Lvov) where them also overate to representatives of USA. Americans have considered economically not acceptable to drag back bunch of becoming unnecessary fighters. Was accepted decision to result planes in unsuitable in flights condition, as the tool for such work tanks in the best way came. Destruction "Thunderbolt" has borrowed(occupied) a lot of time - all winter 1945-46 ³.³. Vigilance of representatives of USA observing behind process, ¿осÑ"оянно was exposed to temptations. The matter is that representatives of the West piously trusting in ideals free face to face have met an animal grin of injurious socialism and couldn`t handle temptations. Simple Soviet people have learned trustful as babies 100 % yank to drink everyone alkohol muck from an aviation facilities(economy) - vodka, moonshine and especially not whisky, and any liquor the chassis! Moreover, barbarians ate while drinking alcohol the Ukrainian bacon, which represented simply saulted pig fat - bacon. The nightmare consist that drank liquor the chassis and guzzled "bacon" directly open-air day after day! Poor Americans were involved in process so, that began to change "bacon" at local population for suitable details in facilities(economy) "Thunderbolt". As is known, the Ukrainian peasant better the Soviet ensign - at a crest any detail in a facilities(an economy) is useful. And here - aviation hours, ºолбоÑ"º¸, jars from stainless still or aluminium, and what remarkable coils were made from pipelines! In general(common), business and friendship of peoples blossomed in air station Old without dependence from bitter colds. Thunderbolts were turned into kitchen tools

In aircraft of the Navy of the USSR fighter -47 has received 255-th IAP Air Forces North fleet. "Thunderbolt" in this regiment was not the first American plane, mastered by pilots. In 1943 of 255-th IAP got -39 "Aircobra" modification "N" and "Q". The Soviet sea pilots successfully fought on "Cobra" so July, 16, 1943 lieutenant V.A.Burmatov on P-39N has brought down Hans Dyobriha from II./JG-5, the expert with 65 victories. First P-47D-22-RE 255-th IAP has received October, 29, 1944

Command of sea aircraft has decided to recheck results fligth tests P-47D-10-RE in Aviation Institute. The aircraft of the Navy of the USSR had no own test base, that`s why have decided to test "Thunderbolt" using skilled front line fighters from 255-th IAP.

Test flights took place from October, 29 till November, 5, 1944, simultaneously it was investigated possiblity basings "Thunderbolt" in polar air stations. Despite of a deadline the program of tests looked rather sated:

- Rise and landing(planting) with concrete and ground strips with full loading;
- Definition of fighting radius combat with various to variants bomb loadings on an external suspension bracket: 2Ñ...¤И-250 (on a bomb on underwing mount), 3Ñ...¤И-250 (two bombs on underwing and one on underfusulage units of a suspension bracket), 2Ñ...¤И-500;
- Bombing from a dive;
- Dive bombing with height 20-25 m on a distance of 150-170 m from the purpose.

Results of tests as a whole appeared favorable. The plane with two bombs ¤И-250 normally flied up from air station Vaenga. Dump of bombs was made in a dive under a corner 50 hailstones from height of 3000 m, aiming at bombing occured on regular machine-gun gunsight. Bombing by three FAB-250 or to two FAB-500 have found possible(probable) to carry out only from horizontal flight. The endurance(quotation) from " the Report on tests of plane P-47D-22-RE " Thunderbolt" below is given.

From the commander of the Air Forces of Council of Federation of the general - lieutenant of aircraft Preobrazhenski " 08489 from November, 13, 1944
The official report to the Commander of the Air Forces of the Navy of the USSR
To marshal Zhavoronkovu I Report, that by results of flight test plane P-47D-22-RE " Thunderbolt" of serial construction by me the decision on arms of one squadron of 255-th IAP is accepted 14 planes " Thunderbolt".

The squadron will carry out the following problems(tasks):
1. Distant support Bombers
2. Horizontal and low-level bombing at the rate of bombing loadings up to 1000 kg on one plane
3. Attack of the ships escorts

The marshal of Larks has appended instructions on the document: " I Approve. Equip regiments and allocate 50 planes ".

In 255-th IAP "Thunderbolt" (basically P-47D-27-RE with bubble canopy) were maintained within one year after the termination(ending) of war, longer, than no matter where in the USSR. The way sea "Thunderbolt" finished almost the same as also them brothers from parts of air defence - in a ravine on the side of Vaengi under caterpillars(tracks) of tractors.

faustnik
06-14-2006, 12:16 PM
Thanks Ivan! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

This evaluation is really that radical compared to Western opinion. The phrase...

"Thunderbolt" repeated a history of soviet fighter MIG- 3 - outstanding at high alt and clumsy at the ground.

...makes sense put in context relative to Soviet fighters.

HayateAce
06-14-2006, 12:17 PM
Translate:

"We not know how to use American fighter."


http://www.paula-abdul-hot-pictures.com/p47.jpg

joeap
06-14-2006, 12:39 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by HayateAce:
Translate:

"We not know how to use American fighter."


</div></BLOCKQUOTE>
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif "We not have need of this American fighter"

Some aces did well with the US P-39 after all. At least you posted Paula.

TgD Thunderbolt56
06-14-2006, 12:48 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by HayateAce:
Translate:

"We not know how to use American fighter."
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>


More like "We not have use for American fighter in its best element" ...troublemaker. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/disagree.gif

HayateAce
06-14-2006, 01:29 PM
The end result is that the Russians didn't like it, Oleg doesn't like it = lack of fidelity and thoughtful input for the FM/DM.

crazyivan1970
06-14-2006, 02:25 PM
Hayate dont pi$$ me off. This is informational, everybody should see both sides of the coin and your comments are not neccessary here. Simply stay away.

mandrill7
06-14-2006, 02:38 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by crazyivan1970:
The matter is that representatives of the West piously trusting in ideals free face to face have met an animal grin of injurious socialism and couldn`t handle temptations. Simple Soviet people have learned trustful as babies 100 % yank to drink everyone alkohol muck from an aviation facilities(economy) - vodka, moonshine and especially not whisky, and any liquor the chassis! Moreover, barbarians ate while drinking alcohol the Ukrainian bacon, which represented simply saulted pig fat - bacon. The nightmare consist that drank liquor the chassis and guzzled "bacon" directly open-air day after day! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The Russian author who wrote this criticism had evidently never attended a Carolina yard party. The allegedly "trustful as babies yanks" were just doing what came naturally to US airmen... drinking moonshine and eating barbecue.

TheGozr
06-14-2006, 04:01 PM
http://www.gozr.net/iocl/viewtopic.php?t=1414

P-47 thunderbolt "gift from Russia to the United States"

I just want to remind you this... That probably why i like the P47 even more.. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Daiichidoku
06-14-2006, 06:07 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by crazyivan1970:
Hayate dont pi$$ me off. This is informational, everybody should see both sides of the coin and your comments are not neccessary here. Simply stay away. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


like you, or anyone wouldnt see stuff like that coming from such a post lol

luv to see US evaluations of Las n Yaks tho, if they ever actually did so

wonder if they would be as disparaging to them, at least from a purely performance POV, excluding workmanship and/or engineering issues

Daiichidoku
06-14-2006, 06:23 PM
"Interest has caused not the plane, but turbocharger , the engine, the aviation equipment. The plane have disassembled "by bones" and have carefully studied in the Bureau of new engineering comission (ИТ КП). Experts ИТ have let out in Russian the full description on fighter -47. Engineers have made conclusions also concerning quality and methods of manufacturing of units and units that flew American fighter, having noted, that on a technological level Soviet aviation industry lags behind from American, with the exception of the P&W R-2800 so-called "engine", appearantly constructed entirely of semi-hardened porridge, paper-mache and bags of broken glass.
Polikarpov engineers were also called in to study superior American throttles, amazingly comfortable for the pilots



Im still waiting (in vain) for the D-22 to get its paddle prop and the D-27 for its dorsal fin extension

VW-IceFire
06-14-2006, 06:23 PM
I bet they would be just as critical. The La's and Yak's would be criticized for poor cockpit layout, poor cockpit comfort, poor radio, extremely bad endurance, and poor altitude performance. The USAAF would probably have appreciated the MiG-3 more than the Yak or La.

I also tend to see that Russian tactics tended to rely less on large formations and much more on small organized groups. Yak's mixed with IL-2s and the like. Groups like the 56th Fighter Group which flew P-47s the whole war...flew in extremely large numbers at varrying altitudes. The lack of individual manueverability was outweighed by the fact that you had the range and durability to get into a fight and then call your friends in to help.

This is definately a case of what was most needed by the respective airforces having almost diametrically opposed requirements.

Kocur_
06-15-2006, 06:04 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by VW-IceFire:
I bet they would be just as critical. The La's and Yak's would be criticized for poor cockpit layout, poor cockpit comfort, poor radio, extremely bad endurance, and poor altitude performance. The USAAF would probably have appreciated the MiG-3 more than the Yak or La.

I also tend to see that Russian tactics tended to rely less on large formations and much more on small organized groups. Yak's mixed with IL-2s and the like. Groups like the 56th Fighter Group which flew P-47s the whole war...flew in extremely large numbers at varrying altitudes. The lack of individual manueverability was outweighed by the fact that you had the range and durability to get into a fight and then call your friends in to help.

This is definately a case of what was most needed by the respective airforces having almost diametrically opposed requirements. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

There is an outstanding unit in VVS history, i.e. 9 Gv.IAD with its brilliant commander: Alexander Pokrishkin. He was greatest tacticial VVS had. He developed doctrine of group tactics, similar to ones used by other AFs, but somehow his "Kuban etagere" didn't make so popular in VVS.
He was also man of HUGE cojones! He had opportunity to try out early Yak-3 and what he said to Yakovlev (also deputy minister of aircraft production) about his latest creation right after, made Yakovlev hate him for life (Yakovlev 'forgot' about it and claimed in his "Tsel zhizni" book that he met Pokrishkin only after the war http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif). And he is also source of inside-SU opinion on US planes and Soviet ones. His unit was flying P-39s and in early 1944 he was offered to receive the latest and best Soviet fighters, i.e. La-7s for his pilots. After short familiarization, with number of La-7s crashed btw., he said NO THANKS, and stayed with P-39s... Aren't actions louder than words?

Slickun
06-15-2006, 07:56 AM
Very interesting read.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

Worf101
06-15-2006, 07:57 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by mandrill7:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by crazyivan1970:
The matter is that representatives of the West piously trusting in ideals free face to face have met an animal grin of injurious socialism and couldn`t handle temptations. Simple Soviet people have learned trustful as babies 100 % yank to drink everyone alkohol muck from an aviation facilities(economy) - vodka, moonshine and especially not whisky, and any liquor the chassis! Moreover, barbarians ate while drinking alcohol the Ukrainian bacon, which represented simply saulted pig fat - bacon. The nightmare consist that drank liquor the chassis and guzzled "bacon" directly open-air day after day! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The Russian author who wrote this criticism had evidently never attended a Carolina yard party. The allegedly "trustful as babies yanks" were just doing what came naturally to US airmen... drinking moonshine and eating barbecue. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
HooooooWheee... ROTFLMBBAO That's some of the funniest chit I've read in years... Oh Mamma, I'm blind, laughin' so hard I can't even see...

Thanks I needed that...

Da Worfster

Capt._Tenneal
06-15-2006, 08:16 AM
Thanks for posting the good read, Ivan. It is nice to see differing opinions from the other folks fighting the Germans at the time.

It gives me a new respect for the Cobra and King Cobra that it found favor among the Russians.

TheGozr
06-15-2006, 08:54 AM
Well about the aircobra.

As was graphically expressed in the words of I. G. Rabkin, the Airacobra at the institute was never far from view. Highly qualified specialists of the NII VVS pored over it through the course of an entire year: pilots V. E. Golofastov, K. A. Gruzdev, Yu. A. Antipov, A. G. Kochetkov, engineers P. S. Onoprienko, V. I. Usatov, P. S. Ivanov, and V. Ya. Klimov. After the defects in the engine, the most serious "illness" of the Cobra was its tendency to enter into a flat spin. The correct diagnosis of this "illness" was not discovered immediately. It took several months of testing, during which one of the best pilots of the NII, Major K. A. Gruzdev, died. This experienced test pilot, from a front-line unit (former commander of 402d and 416th IAPs, 17 kills), took off in AH628 on 2 February 1943. He spun the aircraft for about an hour in the sky above the town Koltsov, near Sverdlovsk, where the institute had been evacuated. After this the aircraft went into a dive and exploded on impact with the ground.

They "defeated" the spin on later models of the Airacobra. The second institute "snake", AH644, was sent back to 22 ZAP in May 1943.

It is not an exaggeration to say that Soviet pilots and engineers, front-line troops and researchers, gave their maximum effort to turn the Airacobra into a fully capable combat aircraft. And in doing so they saved the Bell firm from great unpleasantness associated with the production of a series of "unfinished" aircraft.

To sum up the overview of the employment of the P-39D-2 on the Soviet-German front, one can cite from "Report concerning the work of the engineer-aviation service of 216th SAD" for April 1943, which pertains, by the way, also to the P-39 models K and L: "In the opinion of the pilots, the evaluation of the Airacobra with Allison engine is very positive." As was outlined above, about 70 percent of the 216th's aircraft were early models.

The reports of the maintenance chief of the 216th SAD for May and June also reveal a great number of defects: weak chassis, stumbling of the engine when in transition from high RPMs to low RPMs, and the tendency for the aircraft to go into a spin. But the overall evaluation of the aircraft remained unchanged.

Drawing conclusions, it can be said that the debut of the Airacobra in the Soviet VVS was singularly successful. In skilled hands it was a powerful weapon, fully on a par with the enemy equipment. There was no "special" operational environment for the Airacobras-they were employed as normal multi-purpose fighters that fulfilled the same roles as Lavochkins and Yakovlevs: they contested with fighters, escorted bombers, flew on reconnaissance, and protected our ground forces. They differed from Soviet-produced fighters in having a more powerful armament, survivability, and a good radio, and fell behind our fighters in vertical maneuverability, capability to withstand excessive G-forces, and to execute acute maneuvers. The pilots loved their Airacobras for comfort and good protection. As one P-39 pilot expressed it, he felt like he was "flying in a safe". Airacobra pilots did not burn because the aircraft was metal and the fuel cells were positioned far away in the wing. They were not subject to jets of steam or streams of oil because the engine was behind them. Their faces were not beat up on protrusions of the gunsight. If the airplane should happen to flip over on landing, they were not turned into lump of flesh, as happened to twice HSU A. F. Klubov after transitioning from a P-39 to an La-7. There was a kind of mystical belief that a pilot attempting to preserve a damaged Cobra by belly landing it would almost always emerge not only alive, but also undamaged. But if he bailed out of the same airplane he often was seriously injured or killed by the stabilizer, which was on the same level as the door.

One more quotation to conclude this matter. On 5 November 1943, the notes of a conversation of the ambassador of the USA A. Harriman with the People's Commissar of Foreign Affairs of the USSR, V. M. Molotov: "There is one type of airplane, namely the Airacobra, which is used very well by the Soviet air forces. Harriman says that the Russians use this airplane even better than the Americans. Therefore Vandenberg (General, one of the leaders of the US Army Air Force) would be wise to acquaint himself with the experience of Soviet pilots. In connection with this, Vandenberg would want to visit Soviet squadrons equipped with the Airacobra aircraft." Molotov responded that he considered such a meeting to be acceptable.

crazyivan1970
06-15-2006, 11:16 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Daiichidoku:
like you, or anyone wouldnt see stuff like that coming from such a post lol
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

And what exactly wrong with this post? Evaluation that does not meet your standards.... i see.

Taylortony
06-15-2006, 02:01 PM
fell asleep at

"I posted this couple of years ago, this"

woke up again feeling alive and pumped up at

http://www.paula-abdul-hot-pictures.com/p47.jpg

but then fell back into a deep slumber at

"Originally posted by HayateAce:
Translate:

"We not know how to use American fighter."


Did I miss something?

WWMaxGunz
06-15-2006, 06:27 PM
I have a book where the tale of the I-16 is told. It took 3 Soviet expert pilots to learn
how to best use I-16 and avoid the problems it was known for. Used right it was wonderful,
used as previous fighters it was terrible. The 3 pilots then toured the State and gave
amazing demonstrations and taught Soviet pilots many times one on one until what was nick
named "Mule" became again the official first name "Hawk". I-16 is Hawk because of that.
What would outside engineers and pilots have made of it being used to more stable fighters?

Even in the US there were pilots who did not do well on P-47. But if you flew with certain
groups then you learned different ways. When experienced P-47 pilots rotated back into being
instructors then right uses were taught the new pilots. Check Johnnie Johnson's record, not
all at high alts either. Or better, what Zemke's Wolfpack did with them. Only a shame that
Russian pilots (even just 2) were not traded with US for cross-training, but language barrier
and mistrust would screw that up anyway.

P-39 and P-38 are two other planes that were best not flown in the usual manner. Even P-39D
that was known by many as a deathtrap had advocate pilots in the US who had learned to fly
them for what they were and not as others.

Anyone who has driven a mid-engine car and pushed it correctly can probably relate. They
can be nasty if driven wrong. Even rear-engine in some situations will surprise a front
engine only driver who does not adapt. That doesn't mean they are poor cars.

And what's this about R-2800's being made like c r a p ? Porrige and broken glass? Sounds
like a Soviet Hayate-Ace made that call.

P-47 was designed by a man born and educated in Russia! Including aero degree! Seversky!
Great plane, you just gotta use it right.

Daiichidoku
06-15-2006, 06:28 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by crazyivan1970:
And what exactly wrong with this post? Evaluation that does not meet your standards.... i see. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

nothing wrong with the post

quite interesting, actually, far better than standard UBI forum fare

what i meant was, that in posting something of this nature, ie: an unflattering Soviet evaluation of what is for Americans, a cherished...ahem...if you pardon the term "fighter", will invariably draw comments such as the one Hayate Ace or myself http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif have indeed posted http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

WWMaxGunz
06-15-2006, 06:46 PM
I read it that you should have been expecting H-A's usual 'style' of reply.
As in his post is screwey, not yours Ivan.

VW-IceFire
06-15-2006, 07:22 PM
Hayate Ace's replies are pretty much comical. I hope he never expects anyone to take him seriously....

Frequent_Flyer
06-15-2006, 08:54 PM
It is interesting and that the soviets did not figure out that a P-47 could carry as much ordanace as a IL-2 further. No need for a fighter escort, and after delivering its ordanance strafe the target much more effectiely than an Il-2. All this and have a much greater chance at fighting its way back home. Another way to look at this is more luftwaffe aces were shot down by P-47's than any other allied aircraft. Regarding the P-39's ,I know that 2 of their top 3 all time Ace's flew P-39's. If given the proper instruction the VVS would have learned what other allied pilots did " nothing out dives it " and eight .50's is certainly better than one cannon and one 12.7. The only thing smaller than the gas tank on a sovet aircraft is are the ammo. cannisters.

luftluuver
06-15-2006, 09:16 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by VW-IceFire:
Hayate Ace's replies are pretty much comical. I hope he never expects anyone to take him seriously.... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Has he ever posted anything informative? All I can recall are rants.

HayateAce
06-15-2006, 11:43 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Frequent_Flyer:
...more luftwaffe aces were shot down by P-47's than any other allied aircraft. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


http://photos.airliners.net/photos/photos/8/6/4/0622468.jpg

Enforcer572005
06-17-2006, 10:39 AM
VVS and AAF really missed the boat by not having pilot exchange tours. Interesting that the vvs didnt realize the CAS potential of the 47.

the translation was a bit....confusing...as only about a third of it was undestandable to me (to me being the key).

Also floored me that an experienced unit would reject the La-7 in favor of P-39s. those guys mustve known something the rest of us didnt/dont.

Chuck Yeager tested the Yak-3 (i think it was the 3) after the war at Edwards (muroc back then). dunno where they got it from. He compared some performance to the P-51 at low altitude, but thought it a bit crude. He thought it an effective machine....cant remember the rest (from his auto-biography).

I think test pilots test aircraft from the perspectives fo their own needs and tactics of their particular air arm.

Bremspropeller
06-17-2006, 12:01 PM
Russians also never got anything about the Fw 190.

Maybe they haven't heard of guys like Kittel, Nowotny, Rudorffer, Buchner and other eastern-front 190 aces.

E-fighting wasn't the strong point of the russians.

Kocur_
06-17-2006, 12:55 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Enforcer572005:
Also floored me that an experienced unit would reject the La-7 in favor of P-39s. those guys mustve known something the rest of us didnt/dont.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Simply Pokrishkin was man of huge caliber and was able to say NO to flying 'politically incorrect' but trusty planes. We underestimate seriousness of quality problems in VVS fighters - performace lower than declared and simply fear of catstrofic failures made Pokrishkin risk his carred (at least...).

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bremspropeller:
E-fighting wasn't the strong point of the russians. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

And thats another reason for Pokrishkin rejection of La-7s in favour of P-39s: he did use grop tactics and E-fightng in his unit and wanted to stay with plane, that could dive and be pulled at some gs without risk of wings coming off...

Bremspropeller
06-17-2006, 01:01 PM
Pokryshkin was a great tactician, but he can't be taken as reference for the greatest part of the VVS.

Kocur_
06-17-2006, 01:15 PM
Sure cant! As I said earlier 'Kuban etagere' wasn't something common in VVS.