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View Full Version : An observation that's been bothering me for a while....



knightflyte
03-29-2006, 04:42 AM
It's funny.... when the whining starts it really starts. My turn http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

In that vein I have a question.

I just finished flying in an FW. (I notice this in all the planes) As I was following my prospective kill I notice that his counter manuevers quite often seem to be in such a way that my canopy frame blocks him from my sight. He may dive and peel one way after I lose sight. or he may climb (more oftn than not he'll dive)

He can roll right for example but the path is obstructed, and if I try to follow I have no idea where he is. I'll climb a little then roll over to dive in on him when I find him.

This has nothing to do with any patch past or present, but an observation that I've noticed since the original IL2. I use Track IR so padlock isn't much of an option.

I eventually get the kill, but it seems like this is a tactic rather than an accident.

I also realise we only have 2 DOF and it's a natural symptom of the flight engine we have.

I'm also just whining and if need be am more than happy to be told to STFU. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

I STILL love the game, but sometimes ya just gotta vent!!!!!!!

Sturm_Williger
03-29-2006, 05:03 AM
I'd whine right alongside you http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif But I've noticed that human pilots I'm tracking also possess the magical skill of remaining behind my canopy frames for looooong periods throughout their and my manouevers. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-mad.gif

Maybe they just have the Force... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/shady.gif

F0_Dark_P
03-29-2006, 05:17 AM
that happens to me to but i think it just me that loose them, but here is a example: the fighter i go after mysteriously disappears behind the frames in the canopy, i wait for them to fly past the frames in the direction they had when they flew behind the frame, but they never do and i completely loose them.

I mostly fly the 190 and the 109 so i cant really say anything of the other fighters, but i know what you mean and i get really frustrated of it and sometimes i feel that it happens way to often. But guys remember the 109 and the 190 have very broad frames http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

zetareticulan
03-29-2006, 06:45 AM
I couldn't swear on it but I believe they're using the sun more too.

CMHQ_Rikimaru
03-29-2006, 06:53 AM
I very,very rarely lose my enemy, but the moments are high yoyos. While executing high yoyo, bogey very often hide behind canopy frames, it annoys me like hell, but we cannot do much, we have to wait for tBobhttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

zetareticulan
03-29-2006, 06:56 AM
I'm not entirely certain about this but have you noticed the AI using the Sun to attack from and escape into a little more often nowadays?
Could be related. Me no know.
http://img530.imageshack.us/img530/3449/littleredbookpropagandaposter7.jpg
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif
(sunburn smiley)

SATAN_23rd
03-29-2006, 07:21 AM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/shady.gif

TX-Zen
03-29-2006, 08:23 AM
I have this problem too which is why I rarely try to make the most efficient FM counter move to what the bandit does...flying to the limits of your performance is nullified by not being able to see what the other guy does, as he is often in a blind spot.

It's a better idea to keep SA and make more conservative manuevers so that you can keep the other guy in sight. Doing so means you get less total performance out of your plane, but if you can't see what the other guy is doing he'll inevitably end up in some other spot and you'll lose far more.

We can't do much about it due to the graphical nature of the cockpits, but hopefully this will be different in BoB.

LEXX_Luthor
03-29-2006, 09:12 AM
Fw in game has larger than normal canopy framing, larger than it should I would think, so losing targets behind the canopy is bound to happen more often than in other planes. IL-2 has even more obstructed canopy framing, although that may be correct.

Although the straight top wing Biplanes are the worst and 1930s Soviet pilots Whined so much about this Polikarpov used gull top wings for I-15 (and PZL for P11c to stop Polish pilot Whining). Then the pilots Whined about forward side view, so Polikarpov went back to straight top wing in I-152. Then the pilots Whined about forward view again, so Polikarpov did the gull wing again with I-153. No wonder the fighter developer fell ill and expired rather early in life -- all the Whining. If there is one thing Oleg models hristoical correct, it must be Pilot Whining.

horseback
03-29-2006, 09:13 AM
Latecomer!

This has been a pet peeve of mine since the early days of Il-2 Sturmovik; the AI have ALWAYS known where your canopy frames are and have used them to 'hide' from you. Even the 'friendly' AI use it when you are trying to fly formation with them, apparently in preparation for a mid-air collision (just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean that they aren't all plotting to get me).

Not even the 'Toggle Gunsight' button has fully alleviated the problem (although I'm convinced that it should if I were to move my head forward and back that distance in the real cockpit modelled). At first I thought it was a means of saving frame rates, but it seems to actually decrease fps, so it's just another AI cheat.

It seems to be part of a built-in routine; if I fly a QMB in Wonder Woman view, record the track and then view it in Full Cockpit view, the little buggers are ALL behind my canopy frames 75-85% of the time. The cyclops on a swivel viewpoint system makes it easier to accomplish.

Hopefully, Oleg will notice that most of us have two eyes and can move our heads, and will have that ability modelled in BoB. 6DOF at a minimum will be one of my purchasing requirements.

cheers

horseback

TX-Zen
03-29-2006, 09:19 AM
My virtual pilot is on a steady diet of growth hormones so he won't be so short for BoB

rnzoli
03-29-2006, 12:38 PM
Originally posted by zetareticulan:
I'm not entirely certain about this but have you noticed the AI using the Sun to attack from and escape into a little more often nowadays?
About the escape into the sun, I can assure you. it is much more frequent. Pretty good move against planes without dimmed sights.

Divine-Wind
03-29-2006, 12:45 PM
Which leaves us 'Red' drivers in the... Erm...

I guess 'in the dark' won't work here, will it?

rnzoli
03-29-2006, 01:07 PM
Japanese Zeros are "red"... since when? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

Just kidding, I know what you mean. First time I used a dimmed sight in the Bf-109s (after VVS), I only said "whoaaaa....!!!!"

Tully__
03-29-2006, 01:13 PM
Shift-F1 helps a bit in most planes, but yes it's a problem.

ImpStarDuece
03-29-2006, 02:53 PM
I've swapped the 'toggle gunsight' view from Shift+F1 to my spacebar, as its by far the easiest solution to most canopy obstructions. While its not perfect, it does allow me to regain visual abot 7 times out of 10, and it save me having to look at my keyboard at inoppertune moments.

Remember the old saying; "lose sight, lose the fight".

blakduk
03-29-2006, 04:11 PM
I'm glad it isnt just me who has this problem.
I have pinned my hopes on the 6DOF that's promised in BOB will help cure this. Does anyone here have WOV?
Is it such an issue with that game?
The other problem with this simulator is that it gives an accurate representation of the cockpits and canopies without the advantage we have with stereoscopic vision. If we only had one eye then the canopy frame would be a solid barrier to vision- however we have two eyes so in the real world we can partially see around narrow stuctures. Next time you're in a car notice how wide the windscreen frame is and take careful note of how much partial vision you can get around the frame- close one eye at a time to really see the difference (I suggest you dont drive while conducting this experiment http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif)
I really notice this when flying a plane such as the A6M- the 'greenhouse' panels are really obstructive.
My only solution is to keep my plane moving and using rolls a lot.

LEXX_Luthor
03-29-2006, 05:12 PM
blakduk, WW2 pilots did not like the greenhouse canopies for the same reason you don't like them. The solution was bubble canopies, or removing the canopies in the case of early years of Japanese involvement in China.

The 2-eyed "binocular" vision won't help in most cases where the canopy struts are more parallel to the line between the eyes. In other cases it will help, but only for struts that are not too wide (the images overlap solidly). And again, all this depends on the angle with the line between the eyes.

In fact, realistic binocular vision modelling should create DOUBLE the number of canopy struts in cockpits, at least vertical struts and thin struts.

The worst thing flight sim devs can do is make those fake arcade game looking transparent cockpits, trying to pass them off as easy alternatives to *real* binocular vision modelling or pilot head movement.

Stigler_9_JG52
03-29-2006, 05:43 PM
Now, I'm as enthusiastic a critic of Oleg's flight modeling as ANYONE...

but I am not going to say that the AI is programmed to "use your blindspots". That's sounds as far fetched as some of your more "out there" Kennedy assassination theories.

The thing is, you pilots are getting hung up on a perceived need to always, 100% of the time be able to see your enemy. And that's wrong-headed thinking: you can't count on that, nor should you.

This is where situational awareness comes into play.

You absolutely should be able to lose sight of a bogie whether by accident, circumstance or by choice (yes, that's right, by choice; I'll get to that in a minute). If your SA is good, not only will you be able to estimate where that bogie is likely to be once you can eyeball him again...you will also plan your next move based on what you know of the plane this second.

If you know enough to calculate where you think the bogie would come out 'the other side of that canopy brace'...provided he went straight... you have proven my thesis above. That's because, if you've gotten onto his six before he started manevuering for dear life, you likely have an idea of his speed relative to yours, you know his heading, and you may know something about the capabilities of this particular aircraft type. Right? So, since you know if he's heading due east, he can't POSSIBLY be headed due west in a split second...you know there are a limited number of headings he can be going, given the speed, heading and alt you knew one second ago.

So, you CAN survive with him out of your field of view for a second or two.

This is also necessary if you're nearing gun range, and you do the very prudent thing: just before hosing away, it's a good time to check behind you to see if his wingman is setting you up for a drag and bag; or to see if your wingman is dutifully covering you. Then, secure in the knowledge that your butt is clear, you can go back to your forward view, really get the pipper to where you can't miss and blast your bogie.

Or, in a hard fight, there will be times when the bogie is going to disappear below your belly, under your wing, or behind your blocked canopy rear while you do any number of scissor, vector roll, barrel roll or yo-yo maneuvers. Sometimes, it just can't be helped. So, again, you need to be able to have a mental picture of where the bogie is, as opposed to 100% needing to have him in view at all times.

Use your third eye, and don't sweat the canopy braces so much.

blakduk
03-29-2006, 06:45 PM
LEXX_Luthor- i accept your argument. History shows that throughout the course of the war more efforts were made to lessen the number of obstructions in the canopy. Its just so d**n frustrating in a plane such as a Spitfire or FW190 that has such bulky armour in the windshield- i am soooo tempted to move my head to try and look around the struts.
The only WW2 style fighter i have ever flown was a Yak82 that had a bubble canopy and the view was awesome. I've been in the cockpit of a Spitfire (I honestly cannot recall what version it was http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blush.gif) and a P40 but haven't flown either of them so i cant really comment on the view.
Despite my complaining, i still prefer to have the cockpit on and work around the restraint. I am still very intereseted to know if people with TrackIR have compared the 2DOF in Il2 with the 6DOF in WOV?

horseback
03-29-2006, 07:52 PM
Sorry, Lexx, I just can't buy your whole explanation. If the canopy frames obscure only 10-15% of the total view above the cowling line, why are the ai aircraft behind them most of the time?

Do the ai fly in straight lines for you, Stigler? I can't count the times I've had bogies 'fly' up my forward windshield frame, hang a left at the top of the armored glass, and proceed towards my six behind the top frame of my canopy (and that has varied primarily according to aircraft type and framing pattern). They undoubtedly do fly behind the players' canopy framing as part of the programming, regardless of whether he uses a 'Full-Switch' or Wonder Woman view.

Of course greenhouse canopies were unpopular, because the framing complicated the pilots' scanning of the sky. However, a RL pilot can move his head from side to side or forward and back to minimize the obstruction; in this game, I can't. I am held to two generally unnatural head positions at the same level, when in most non-Soviet fighters the pilot would put his eye to the sight by leaning forward and down.

A natural viewpoint when not looking through the sights should be higher than that modelled in FB/PF on all but a few fighters.

Added to my problems is the limitation of a FOV of less than half my natural one, and the insistence upon a one-eyed view that widens the canopy and windshield framing significantly compared to normal human vision.

Having the ai programmed to fly in this way is just adding insult to injury.

cheers

horseback

Stigler_9_JG52
03-29-2006, 08:10 PM
Well, Horseback, I don't think either of us can provide proof either way...

but I think if Oleg could program it so that AI planes could position themselves relative to specific planes' cockpit art and find the canopy framing, he could get more of the basic physics and flight modeling right. And, AI wouldn't collide amongst themselves like the Three Stooges, and they wouldn't "cheat according to script" if the programming allowed such fine control as to be able to control where they appear relative to your canopy bracing. I say, put it down to Murphski's Law.

One better explanation for all this is the fact that Oleg stubbornly refuses to "model for binocular vision", but for 100% scaling, and the bracing likely seems to take up a bit more visual space than it ought to. In other words, your TWO eyes would create the illusion that the braces were thinner and maybe that would reveal that bogie that always seems to be behind them.

I just can't fathom how that would be possible from a programming standpoint. Again, I can't prove that...but I can't see it, either.

Still, what I posted is appropriate, and it's focused on the solution rather than the problem. You don't need to see the enemy all the time, and going further, you shouldn't count on that, either. If you can manage to cold bounce your enemy every time, fine; if he's not maneuvering (ironically, because you're probably hidden by parts of his aircraft), you can control where he is in your windscreen right up until the time you pull the trigger. But, if he doesn't cooperate, you have to prepare for things that don't go your way.

Bank further. Maneuver more loosely while you set up your shot. Or, just use those pictures in your head during the seconds he's out of view.

dieg777
03-29-2006, 08:26 PM
I have used the 6DOF in BOB II WOV - but the aircraft are modled differently in the two sims with different LOD distances etc- (in WOV the bandit always appears larger than in IL2FB)
so its a bit apples vs oranges
If you compaire 6DOF on and off in BOB II WOW then 6DOF definatly aids tracking.

Ominae-
03-29-2006, 09:05 PM
I can easily see that happening. The 190 is a nice bird, but I just hate the canopy SO much. The same thing happens to me, but ONLY in a 190, not even a 109. Its a pain: nice plane, horrible canopy.

BM357_TinMan
03-29-2006, 10:43 PM
I've flown with 6dof in WoV and CFS 3 and yes it DOES aid in tracking. In CFS3 on-line, I was able to compete rather sucessfully against oponents using wonder woman view and padlock while I was flying with just track IR and Vector with the cockpit on.

The problem (with 6dof) with those two is the stupid reticle. It is just "drawn" on so it is very difficult to aim when using 6dof. But tracking is sweet and WoV has modeled the head movement in such a way that you are constrained by reasonable bounderies (i.e. you can't move your head further than the canopy from side to side like you can in CFS3)

Sturm_Williger
03-30-2006, 05:14 AM
I have to say again - if the AI are really programmed to "hide" behind the bars, how come my human oppos can do it too ?

It just "seems" like they're programmed to do it. That doesn't mean it isn't frustrating or that it doesn't "feel" unfair, but my limited knowledge of programming tells me that if Oleg could really do this, the AI would be super-mega-uber and you'd never ever kill even one. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif