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Heinz_Knokke
10-22-2004, 09:19 AM
many of the planes advertised as flyable are not.
Flight models are dubious at best: only one exemple to give you the idea of my meaning -> the corsair have no torque effect at all and doesn't need the least rudder input to TO.

Japanese airplanes have clearly not been thoroughly researched before being modeled, as there are surprising error in them
a few examples to give you the idea:
colors of the Hien are a joke (marking on the propeller being fluorescent green), and the yellow of the leading edge. The flaps of the Ki-43 have clearly not been researched. they're totaly wrong (they were butterfly fly working like fowler flaps, and not like normal WWII flaps).
Try folding the wings of the zero.
The gunsight of the Hien have been done from imagination, not from documentation. A type 100 gunsight is a german REVI gunsight produced under license, and so there is no reason it should look like a totally new gunsight.

The AI now keeps flying into the ground so consistently that some campaign are unflyable right from the first mission (Beaufighter campaign).
First mission of the D3A1 campaign is... surprising: a pearl Harbor first wave attack with only 3 D3A1, and 3 zero carrying bombs.
Extented position of the arresting hook of the zero is wrong (should extend a little past the tailwheel), making it difficult for the hook to catch the cables.
The squadron markings for the japanese planes are not working. Whatever the marking one's select, the Ki-43 will always display 64th Sentai colors. Same thing for the US planes (marking doesn't change from the default ones)

On top of that, the old bugs present till the days of IL-2 Sturmovik have not been corrected (AI teammates planes so much faster than the player's plane).
I understand that PF is just an addon, not a reworking of the game engine, but still it hurts to see the same problem still there


Now some compliments:
The carriers are great (except when flak is firing). They're the best addition in the game.
Some of the new planes are worth being there, like the Beaufighter and A-20.

Some payloads are great to see included in the game, like the parafrags.

The overall impression is mild, however, as many planes that should have been there or that should have been flyable are not:
no G4M, no B5N, no type 96 rikko, no Ki-44, no L2D... and no flyable seaplanes.
no Devastator, no early version of the A-20, no swordfish, no fulmar...etc

Anyway, it is a great addon even with all it's shortcomings, but at the price it is sold, it's not worth the investment yet (perhaps it will when a patch will be released correcting all the glitches and adding the planes that where supposed to be included in the release).

Chuck_Older
10-22-2004, 09:23 AM
If you mail me your fully functional, in-English copy of PF with all relevant and included material including gamebox, jewel case, original game CDs, manuals, advertisements included in-box, and receipt, I will pay you what it cost you plus shipping so you can recoup your loss

e5kimo
10-22-2004, 09:24 AM
i m no history buff but i agree on the beaufighter campaign..
just wait though .. someone will come in and tell you that it is your fault for not adjusting the waypoints.
or simply that you assumed something of PF that was different from what maddox had in mind. obviously that is your fault and you are best of to put the game down or mail it to someone. bizarre stuff happens here , let me tell ya

edit: would you believe it ? the weirdo beat me to the punch. stop your begging for a copy.

Chuck_Older
10-22-2004, 09:25 AM
You should see if anyone will take the horrible "sim" Pacific Fighters off your hands, Eskimo. Then you won't have to put up with it or us AND you'll get your money back

e5kimo
10-22-2004, 09:27 AM
you dont get it , do you ?

Chuck_Older
10-22-2004, 09:33 AM
Not yet, but I hope to when it hits the stores.


Or are you referring to my utter refusal of the "My way or the Highway" approach you are selling lately? If so, then yes, I don't get it and never will. Your viewpoints are becoming quite narrow in my opinion. Your last post had no real merit, you're complaining about what you've read from other posts.

Nice cheap shot by the way. Do you feel better now?

NegativeGee
10-22-2004, 09:34 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by e5kimo:
you dont get it , do you ? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, like he said his hasn't got his copy yet http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

This is a distinctly "my glass is half empty thread".

+1

DuxCorvan
10-22-2004, 09:35 AM
Yeah, I agree. For me the answer is: it was too early to release it, and two CDs are too few.

And the same as ever for the worst bugs (mostly AI issues). Workarounds -like making parking AI vanish, or setting higher altitude waypoints- are not a solution. And you're right: I know that AI planes must have simplified FMs, but, have all of them to be rocket powered? My AI mates always catch the enemy before...

BTW, don't expect the worst default skins to be ever replaced: look at FB's 109s. Those defaults are -ugh-yuck- and the colors are hardly realistic. But they have never been changed, even if there are great skinners all around. Do as myself, make your own realistic generic skins -get them if you can't- and apply them all around.

Anyway, be confident. I don't know many games with such an amount of support and updating as this series.

Apart from that, I think it's worth its price, oh yes, I'm longing for it. Amazon has not fulfilled its promises... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/cry.gif

e5kimo
10-22-2004, 09:38 AM
you dont get it that one can like the game yet comment on it, criticse it even.

and no, i dont feel better now because i had an utterly disappointing time playing il2 for the first time in almost a year. yes, i am upset, yes i am annoyed.

but you just keep it up. you ll get the game sooner or later i assume. i just hope you ll have the same experience i had.

DuxCorvan
10-22-2004, 09:42 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by e5kimo:
i had an utterly disappointing time playing il2 for the first time in almost a year. yes, i am upset, yes i am annoyed. (..) i just hope you ll have the same experience i had. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh, please, tell us what happened. I die for some gossip... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

e5kimo
10-22-2004, 09:46 AM
i think i m gonna cry http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

someone hold me pleeeaaassseeee http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

seriously though . pearl harbour was awesome until i acctually got to the city and ended up in stutter. i thought that well they had gone overbaord maybe with AAA and city and whatnot so i started building some missions myself. mainly carrier raids as the campaign missions were just oo long and uneventfull and the obvious lack of interesting missions.
what ever i did the system would **** out on the the attack run. landing , take offs .. heaps of planes no problems but the acctual missions i could just not play due to stutter.
then i looked for tweaks and settings to change to improve this situations but as it stands i can only attack sitting ducks without AAA.
i ended up playing a bit of QMB which is nice and works well. frustrating when you thought you d be attacking aircraft carriers in the pacific.

Tater-SW-
10-22-2004, 09:49 AM
I don't have it yet. I plan to buy it ASAP here in the US. when I get it, I'll be as happy as a pig in sh*t.

That said, it sounds like as a stand-alone, box-sim there are certainly serious issues. I think I read that something like 80% of Il-2 players are offline players. A box-game that doesn't have a good array of missions, or has missions that are obviously broken/beta/goofy (loads of crashing planes, USMC flying P-39s, etc) needs a patch pronto since a large % will do nothing but play offline.

Myself, I'm perfectly happy with messing with new planes and the FMB as soon as I install the sucker, but that might not be true for a large majority of customers. I imagine the first patch will certainly help, but it seems as though it should come out ASAP for the box-sim crowd (presumably with more missions---though mission files are tiny so you'd think they would've made the cut the first time)

tater

Chuck_Older
10-22-2004, 09:49 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by e5kimo:
you dont get it that one can like the game yet comment on it, criticse it even.

and no, i dont feel better now because i had an utterly disappointing time playing il2 for the first time in almost a year. yes, i am upset, yes i am annoyed.

but you just keep it up. you ll get the game sooner or later i assume. i just hope you ll have the same experience i had. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I assume this was for my sole benefit.

So you think I don't beleive anyone can comment on PF. Go read your first post in this thread. You are venting about what went on in other threads. Give me a break, I'm not stupid. You weren't commenting on the game, you were commenting on people on the forums. SO that is a cop-out. You're going to have to be innocent to pull the innocent routine with me, I'm afraid.

You're annoyed, and you're disappointed. You have every right to be it's YOUR MONEY you spent.

But to take it out on me or anyone else is a load of BS

Obi_Kwiet
10-22-2004, 09:51 AM
Yeah, and all the sudden you're an authority on this because... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

I know the default skins stink, espically for the Japanise. This is nothing new. I never can understand why they don't let a 3rd party skinner do them. Oh well, it's easilly corrected. I think they should have delayed the release untill then had some good missions. They always forget about missions.

e5kimo
10-22-2004, 09:54 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Chuck_Older:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by e5kimo:
you dont get it that one can like the game yet comment on it, criticse it even.

and no, i dont feel better now because i had an utterly disappointing time playing il2 for the first time in almost a year. yes, i am upset, yes i am annoyed.

but you just keep it up. you ll get the game sooner or later i assume. i just hope you ll have the same experience i had. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I assume this was for my sole benefit.

So you think I don't beleive anyone can comment on PF. Go read your first post in this thread. You are venting about what went on in other threads. Give me a break, I'm not stupid. You weren't commenting on the game, you were commenting on people on the forums. SO that is a cop-out. You're going to have to be innocent to pull the innocent routine with me, I'm afraid.

You're annoyed, and you're disappointed. You have every right to be it's YOUR MONEY you spent.

But to take it out on me or anyone else is a load of BS <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
yea sorry for taking it out on you. you just seemed an obvious target to let it out on seeing as you came in with that smart *** comment about selling it in the other thread.. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

csThor
10-22-2004, 09:55 AM
The problem of japanese squadron markings is there, no disagreement. The problem might have several reasons as lack of reference and (IMO more probable) no technical way of displaying such a multitude of different markings on different planes. The german planes have the same problem in FB so I usually turn them off completely as they look off even with Mat Manager.

MetalG.
10-22-2004, 09:56 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Heinz_Knokke:
[...]Try folding the wings of the zero.[...] <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I also find this rather weird since all other planes with folding wings do not seem to have any trouble at all.
It looks redicilous having those floating wingtips with your wingtips folded. It wouldn't be that much of a problem if it wasn't for the wing markings missing on the A6M2-21 and the fuselage markings on the D3A1! Why are those missing? Has this been looked over by beta testers and the dev. team? I can hardly imagine something as obvious as that not to be noticed by at least someone before going gold.

It doesn't affect flying I know, but everytime I look at a carrier with Zeros and Vals on it, I just cant help but be annoyed by those missing markings and floating wingtips. I very much hope this will be adressed in the patch.

x6BL_Brando
10-22-2004, 10:00 AM
My feeling is that it's not so much that the game is un-finished, it's that we're all un-learnt in using it. Anybody who's been flying IL-2 for a while will know that there will be patches and extra flyables very soon after full-release. That's the history of the Sim so far - and having a 3rd CD would just have made the price higher, btw. Instead, we'll get our extra's free of CD-printing and packaging costs in the usual short order. What the hell is everybody moaning for? Bunch of bl**dy ingrates! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-mad.gif

Deathreaper666
10-22-2004, 10:06 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by x6BL_Brando:
My feeling is that it's not so much that the game is un-finished, it's that we're all un-learnt in using it. Anybody who's been flying IL-2 for a while will know that there will be patches and extra flyables very soon after full-release. That's the history of the Sim so far - and having a 3rd CD would just have made the price higher, btw. Instead, we'll get our extra's free of CD-printing and packaging costs in the usual short order. What the hell is everybody moaning for? Bunch of bl**dy ingrates! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-mad.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Their numbers have risen lately. Maybe they don't understand this, don't remember the past year with FB or don't care and want to whine regardless. I think it is the latter. Whine on children. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

Ruy Horta
10-22-2004, 10:25 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Chuck_Older:
You should see if anyone will take the horrible "sim" Pacific Fighters off your hands, Eskimo. Then you won't have to put up with it or us AND you'll get your money back <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'll keep my copy, but the guy made some vaild points. The flaps on the Hayabusa are one, the flaps on the Hellcat are another. This feels like a rushed product. Its feels like a lot did not make the release in time and that they just went ahead. We'll patch it...

Fine if they patch it, but it does warrant WHINING about said patch.

WHEN WHEN WHEN

Here I said it.

WHEN will we see the product as originally advertised? WHEN will we see the ships as listed, the a/c "left out because of space issues", when?

Wonder how you'd like it if your wordprocessor suddenly appeared without print function or spellchecking?

Chuck_Older
10-22-2004, 10:28 AM
That bit of my post that you quoted was addressed to e5kimo, Ruy.

You may be taking me a teensy bit out of context here

NAFP_supah
10-22-2004, 10:47 AM
Your replies Chuck are far from productive.

Many things e5skimo mentions are really there and take a lot of the fun out of it. A typical mission flying a P-40 with the USMC from midway consists of taking of with 5 other aircraft, flying for an hour, meeting 20 zekes, shooting down 5 to 6 of them (you just need to put 10 rounds in to one and its going down in flames and most of the time they don't even react when shot at). Disengaging with no losses mostly and the entire enemy force wiped out. 4 of your AI flight mates crashing into each other on the way back and dying and then landing back on midway. After 4 missions your squadron is low on planes, not because of combat losses but because the AI flies in to each other or the sea.

The AI needs to be looked at. It adds allot of planes to AEP and some of those are really nice. But there are obvious bugs and the AI is for the most part a joke.

Going "Send me your copy heretic" the moment someone mentions these issues is not a very helpfull attitude.

crazyivan1970
10-22-2004, 10:55 AM
Bug thread is in ORR, wanna make a difference, please go there and report. Right now you guys just making noise, sorry.

walsh2509
10-22-2004, 11:12 AM
I can not comment on PF as I have not yet bought it , I intend to but I have had my fingers burnt with buting on release day..

All sims have these problems, take Lock On I like hunders of others bought it right away, you just want to get your hands on these sims as soon as, but Lock On was far from finished by UBI's release date. But ED had to hand it over for shipping, that if I remember was November time last year.

A patch was released within a month or 2 but that was only a short term fix for certain things. The main patch was released some 6 months after the sim hit the stores, and even with this patch, some things were still not 100% but its the best that ED could do and had to get on with there next project.

If people complain they are jumped apon and accused of having early edition leaked versions.

That is not all way the case, and I can tell you it was the same with the Lock On forum, some people would not have a word against UBI or the developers ED.

I once questioned why UBI released what "was" an unfinished game as it was plain to see as ED took another 6 months to release a near fixall or fix what they could patch.

I was bereated for even calling UBI and ED to account as ED knew as did UBI the game was far from finished..

Later I was told that UBI as the shipping company and part funder buyer of the sim had a contract with the developers ED to have the sim by a certain date, and if they had not finished it by that date then they by contact would have to work on a patch to fix as much as they could.

I guess it was the same thing with this one, they had to deliver it on the date in the contract finished or not, I guess we will see patches appearing but unlike Lock On I am going to wait for a while and see what the first patch bring and look at the comments of the forum after they have installed the patch and see if it worth buying or waiting to see if they patch it further...

cow9th
10-22-2004, 11:34 AM
yes its finished it just shipped with some bugs, i cant think of a game that doesnt.
i certainly cant think of a dev team that talks to the community directly and sets to work on fixing these ommissions as rapidly as 1c does.

as for replacing the skins on the 109 i think thats seriously misguided, it is a PF sim.......
no germans in the pacific. thats why the yank crates got pretty new skins and the germans didnt.

www.il2skins.com (http://www.il2skins.com) you will find more than acceptable replacements there!

the games not perfect, torpedo bombers especially are missing in my opinion.
weathers not too hot.
AAA's a crazy frame rate killer an option to reduce this would be immense.
and the wind doesnt blow in my face when i open the canopy.

these are all problems that probably wont be fixed unless OM sends me a free fan or something many of them are unfixable aswell.

this isnt supposed to be the perfect game its meant to be a good one and it achieves that.
i dont beleive that because M$ cant program a sim to save theyre lives i should be etternaly gratefull to 1c for theyre hard work, i do however know that with the limitations at hand especially when designing niche market software like a flight sim, that 1c have created the be all and end all of all flight sims.

as with all software there will always be problems and things that we feel are missing (flyable mosquito and typhoon) but the amount of flack directed at the game simply because someone decided to release it with a bug or two or AI thats not of the most realistic design is just silly.

ppl have every right to complain about games, but they should do so in a mature fashion, if i recall correctly il2 was infact going to be nothing more than an il2 sim, the fighters were only added by community request/demand.

things can only be changed if ppl work together in an intelegent fashion to achieve theyre wishes.
*****ing gets us nowhere.

Chuck_Older
10-22-2004, 11:40 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by NAFP_supah:
Your replies Chuck are far from productive.

Many things e5skimo mentions are really there and take a lot of the fun out of it. A typical mission flying a P-40 with the USMC from midway consists of taking of with 5 other aircraft, flying for an hour, meeting 20 zekes, shooting down 5 to 6 of them (you just need to put 10 rounds in to one and its going down in flames and most of the time they don't even react when shot at). Disengaging with no losses mostly and the entire enemy force wiped out. 4 of your AI flight mates crashing into each other on the way back and dying and then landing back on midway. After 4 missions your squadron is low on planes, not because of combat losses but because the AI flies in to each other or the sea.

The AI needs to be looked at. It adds allot of planes to AEP and some of those are really nice. But there are obvious bugs and the AI is for the most part a joke.

Going "Send me your copy heretic" the moment someone mentions these issues is not a very helpfull attitude. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Spare me your assumptions, and also take YOUR words out of MY mouth. "Heretic" is YOUR INTERPRETATION of what I said. I never even said "Send me", if you take the moment to re-read, I said I would pay for it. If you don't like your copy, maybe we could make a deal for yours? I live in the US and I didn't get AEP until 10 days after it hit the stores. I would pay shipping plus the fair value of your copy of PF, provided you prove how much you paid for the product, not your shipping, and you can show it is a non-pirated copy. You think I'm kidding, but that is your problem, not mine.

Now, then.


You still haven't even said what model P-40 you're referring to. If you had actually read my 'non-productive' posts, then you'd know I've been asking for specifics, so we can talk about what might be wrong, if anything.

Also you'd know that I am open-minded as to whether or not something might be wrong. All I want is something more substantial than the 'I say so, that's why' routine.

In fact, i expressed concerns about the potential over-modelling of the H 81A-2 just the other day. Do a search under my name here for 'P-40B and C fans', I think that's the thread.

If you care to actually read my post instead of assuming what I mean, maybe you'll see I'm rising above the baiting, name calling, and insults being thrown my way. Or maybe not. I can't say I care if you understand that or not. But the next time you think I'm being counterproductive, check out what I've been saying first, OK?

DuxCorvan
10-22-2004, 11:55 AM
Heard the word 'heretic' around here?

No one expects the Spanish Inquisition! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

Chuck_Older
10-22-2004, 12:06 PM
Ah, but then, nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition, Brother Fang

mortoma
10-22-2004, 12:16 PM
I am not whining or praising, but I'd say they would have been better off if they would have waited until Xmas, from waht I've heard. I have heard that the offline campaigns are sparse ( except Navy ) and the Marines campaign has you flying only P-39s, which the Marines never flew.
When I get the game I will edit the dat/db files to at least get Corsairs into the Marine campaigns. They seemed to have rushed the release a tad.

Tater-SW-
10-22-2004, 12:22 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by NAFP_supah:
Your replies Chuck are far from productive.

Many things e5skimo mentions are really there and take a lot of the fun out of it. A typical mission flying a P-40 with the USMC from midway consists of taking of with 5 other aircraft <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Flying a P-40 for the USMC? One, the Marines flew Navy figher planes EXCLUSIVELY. Two, there were no P-40s at Midway. This kind of error is the equivilent of a Luftwaffe fighter pilot campaign beginning with pilots flying a Fiat or something.

A marine campaign that starts at Midway could include a couple of F2B/F4F-3 missions at Midway, then after Midway, F4F-3s, then F4F-4s, then F4Us. That's it. Anything else is silly.

tater

NAFP_supah
10-22-2004, 01:38 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tater-SW-:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by NAFP_supah:
Your replies Chuck are far from productive.

Many things e5skimo mentions are really there and take a lot of the fun out of it. A typical mission _flying a P-40 with the USMC_ from midway consists of taking of with 5 other aircraft <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>



Flying a P-40 for the USMC? One, the Marines flew Navy figher planes EXCLUSIVELY. Two, there were no P-40s at Midway. This kind of error is the equivilent of a Luftwaffe fighter pilot campaign beginning with pilots flying a Fiat or something.

A marine campaign that starts at Midway could include a couple of F2B/F4F-3 missions at Midway, then after Midway, F4F-3s, then F4F-4s, then F4Us. That's it. Anything else is silly.

tater <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I kid you not. I am flying the standard USAAF Campaign which, after one mission during the Pearl harbour attack, puts you with VMF-111 flying P-40E's out of midway. I can get you screenshots of the ingame screens of you want them http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Oh and Chuck, what ever you say "Send me your copy heretic" is how you come across to a lot of people when you tell people to send you their copy (compensated or not) and basically to stop complaining in every thread where criticisme is raised. They are not saying they hate it, they are merely pointing out things that are wrong in their eyes.

Chuck_Older
10-22-2004, 02:17 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by NAFP_supah:


Oh and Chuck, what ever you say "Send me your copy heretic" is how you come across to a lot of people when you tell people to send you their copy (compensated or not) and basically to stop complaining in every thread where criticisme is raised. They are not saying they hate it, they are merely pointing out things that are wrong in their eyes. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

When I'm wrong I admit it. When you're wrong you tell me it's MY fault http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Ruy Horta
10-25-2004, 03:14 AM
You can change the a/c by hand, its not too difficult to change the Aeracobras to Wildcats, however I couldn't get the second USMC campaign to run at all, if I opt for Guadalcanal the campiagn with a No Map error. The map is there, so it probably is some wrong statement or missing statament in one of the DGEN files or they forgot to include some important file.

Whatever it is USMC single player is completely porked http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

This could have been spotted by playtesting, right?

BTW, there are more such odds and ends. Like Ki-43s defending Guadalcanal in the USN campaign (again, that can be easily changed by editing some d-gen files).

ELEM
10-25-2004, 03:50 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Heinz_Knokke:
... and no flyable seaplanes.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wrong! There is a Rufe campaign, but it won't go beyond mission 2 as the map is missing!!

PlaneEater
10-25-2004, 03:56 AM
As a memeber of the team who made PF, I'd like to put this thread to rest with a final statement.

Yes, the production of Pacific Fighters became increasingly hectic and rushed as production drew to a close. It's not all one group's fault.

I will not criticize Oleg. He was overseeing the development of not only PF AND some tail-end FB/AEP related work, but is probably also tied up immensely with BoB. That PF even shipped at all before, say, March 2005 is incredible, especially considering the state it DID ship in. It could have been far, far worse.

There were some problems with communication within the art team (models and textures). Considering that several DOZEN languages, almost every time zone, and over 100 people all over the planet were involved in creating the content for PF, that does not surprise me. There were other matters that exacerbated it, however, which I will keep confidential.

I will hold Ubisoft responsible, as a publisher (they did not in any want contribute to the actual creation of PF other than funding) for bending to the current marketing fad of 'out for Christmas'. ESPECIALLY in light of what that exact same decision did to Microsoft's CFS3.

If Ubisoft was truly better managed or informed, they would know as well as we do that flight sims, being a relatively niche market, are going to have much less of a sales boost due to Christmas than something like, say, FarCry. Those who want it will know about it, and WILL buy it. Major publishers need to realize that niche markets, even flightsims, do not work well when forced into major venue marketing models, as used for wide distribution games (Half-Life, Doom3, Sims2, etc).

While I won't call Ubisoft's 12 month development schedule draconian, I will say it was incorrect for the project. The IL-2 series is as much about a global duty to preserve and educate about history as it is a game or a sales object; if the managers at Ubi would take this into account and market it as such--and I will accuse them of drastically under-marketing ALL of the IL-2 games--I think they would gain more in that manner than any single Christmas boost would give them.

However, Ubi is a commercial entity, and they exist not only in order TO make money, but BECAUSE they make money. They would have no revenue to fund PF if they did not sell games. So I cannot and will not hold them solely responsible.

There are bugs with PF, and they are more numerous than we are accustomed to from the IL-2 series. It was the result of many small things adding up at one point.

Many, if not all of those glitches and problems, will be fixed in upcoming patches. It may take some time, but they will be corrected eventually.

And honestly, what we have now, even if it has problems, still has a LOT to offer. The fact that we even have it is also more of a blessing than an eventuality.

So in closing, all I ask is appreciation for what went into PF, patience for it to mature, and a little perspective to not ask it to do things it was never intended to (such as comparing it to CFS2--IL-2 never did fuel tank selection, it never will, wait for BoB).

If you can do that, I think you will see PF as the da mn fun game I know it is an will keep growing as.

(edit: I can't believe they censor 'da mn'. Da mmit.)

Jieitai_Tsunami
10-25-2004, 04:02 AM
If you download the leaked beta you will find the missing Zero skins and other things there. I think they will come out in the patch because they can't fit onto the CD. I was going to fly the perl harbor mission but it is such **** that I didn't bother. What a hash of a game.

I couldn't imagen what people who just want to play offline must be thinking....

NegativeGee
10-25-2004, 04:19 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jieitai_Tsunami:
I couldn't imagen what people who just want to play offline must be thinking.... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

How so?

Jieitai_Tsunami
10-25-2004, 06:54 AM
Think about it please NegativeGee http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif.

Ruy Horta
10-25-2004, 09:12 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by crazyivan1970:
Bug thread is in ORR, wanna make a difference, please go there and report. Right now you guys just making noise, sorry. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Noise or not, you'd be dumb not to take account of some of the remarks being made. Besides, a bug is a bug, even if its posted here. Shifting through the **** is one of your hobbies not mine... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

Besides last time I looked at that PF bug thread it wasn't all that clear. Perhaps you guys should create a forms page instead and LIST all the known bugs in a clear manner, that way we can check daily and look if we are discussing a known bug or not. I've spotted many issues that could be labeled as bugs, but the thread didn't invite participation.

BTW without at least a link your post is about the same as ours in value, noise that is...

Ruy Horta
10-25-2004, 11:08 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by PlaneEater:
As a memeber of the team who made PF, I'd like to put this thread to rest with a final statement.

Yes, the production of Pacific Fighters became increasingly hectic and rushed as production drew to a close. It's not all one group's fault. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Your post humbles me...

Its people like you that I would like to thank for their effort. But you went a step further by opening up and giving some honest answers.

That honesty DOES work, at least for me.

If you spot a bug and are told that you are ungrateful for commenting so soon about it by some semi-official moderator, it serves no other purpose than to alienate what are in fact dedicated fans. Soon you simply take positions and the mudslinging begins.

At leas you gave real reasons and recognized that not all is well in the state of PF.

I only HOPE (capitals letters) that PF sells well enough to generate sufficient funds that will guarantee continued support and growth.

My fear is that the current stand alone PF, with bugs, might in the end not be well received by the press and larger target audience. The first patch might mean the difference between make or break.

But again i thank you for restoring much of my hope.

ZG77_Nagual
10-25-2004, 11:28 AM
Personally I allways keep in mind the days of janes ww2 and cfs2/3. Also that Oleg has allready announced a patch will be out allmost immediately to provide cockpits for flyables and other items that there was no room for - as well as some fixes, I would imagine.

It's inevitable that people 'launch' as soon as they get there mitts on the thing and find a problem.

Planeater's post is appreciated but I think we should all remember that Maddox is responsible for setting a very high standard - and in my opinion PF went from being an idea Luthier mentions to a reality very quickly. I don't think any excuses need to be made for this exemplary product. There are allways bugs.

crazyivan1970
10-25-2004, 11:41 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ruy Horta:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by crazyivan1970:
Bug thread is in ORR, wanna make a difference, please go there and report. Right now you guys just making noise, sorry. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Noise or not, you'd be dumb not to take account of some of the remarks being made. Besides, a bug is a bug, even if its posted here. Shifting through the **** is one of your hobbies not mine... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

Besides last time I looked at that PF bug thread it wasn't all that clear. Perhaps you guys should create a forms page instead and LIST all the known bugs in a clear manner, that way we can check daily and look if we are discussing a known bug or not. I've spotted many issues that could be labeled as bugs, but the thread didn't invite participation.

BTW without at least a link your post is about the same as ours in value, noise that is... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh wow, you know, if you look up a bit, you will see a sticky thread about bug reporting, do you see it? Good, it`s all there. All bugs are being posted, compiled into reports and sent out. That`s what i mean by making a difference. Also note, that in that thread most pf the people being objective and helpfull. That`s what i meant about making difference vs making noise. That`s the only way to go and believe me, i was really ticked off last night going thru few pages of Gen discussion and PF forum looking for those who didn`t bother to post in that sticky. Wasted 3 hours, while i shouldn`t.

NegativeGee
10-25-2004, 12:35 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jieitai_Tsunami:
Think about it please NegativeGee http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, you tell us what you are alluding too please, Jieitai_Tsunami. I have my opinions, but you are the one making the claims here.

So just how are these offliners thinking?

Penguin_PFF
10-25-2004, 12:49 PM
PlaneEater hit it right on the head.

We who helped to make this thing worked hard and did our best to make good stuff, but there just wasn't enough time to make everything. And that's just speaking from a modeler's perspective... I can't imagine what Ilya might tell you guys over a beer in a restaurant.

What you'll find on the CDs in the box is not the final story by any means. It's like New England weather... I know it sucks that some things are missing, but just wait a little while. We is working on it. Be sure!

Ruy Horta
10-25-2004, 01:22 PM
Thank you Penguin, such input was needed here.

After a couple of days of noise and semi-official counter mudslinging, we finally get to read some honest and open comments.

PF is a diamond in the rough!

k5054
10-25-2004, 01:37 PM
I'm enjoying it now, warts and all. Even if my attempt to eat USS Lexington ended in falure.
Would I prefer to wait until it's perfect? NO.

Will I be able to loop the Corsair and gain height in the future? Probably not.

Will I still love it when there are more ships, more maps, more flyables, more missions? YES.

oisink
10-25-2004, 04:24 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>

What you'll find on the CDs in the box is not the final story by any means. It's like New England weather... I know it sucks that some things are missing, but just wait a little while. We is working on it. Be sure! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry mate i gotta disagree, Pacific Fighters is a commercial product as and from when it was released and can be judged as one. Whats in that box IS the final story for people are who being asked to pay good money for that box, how many would have parted with their cash for an "IOU one finished flight sim" note? Seems to me ubi and/or maddox take the enthusiasm and loyalty of this market as a given and feel they can play fast and loose with quality control due to the niche nature of their market.

The "core" of PF as the stand alone game is compromised due to the lousy nature of the missions, basically if viewed as a sim in its own right, rather than a continuation of an evolving series it is seriously flawed. Im not too concerned about that personally, its only money and I know there'll be patches. BUT how many people will pick up PF try to play it and give up after having their AI squad wipe themselves out repeatedly?? how many potential community members are we losing for that quick buck? IL2 was the first sim i ever played back when it first came out, If it had been PF i would'nt be here now and that is what saddens me.

BlakJakOfSpades
10-25-2004, 04:47 PM
well if you are gonna go to the i payed good money for this unfinished sim route why dont you look at your alternative "finished" sims that cost about 10 dollars more and aren't even as good...

oisink
10-25-2004, 05:11 PM
Thanks for reminding me why i dont post much http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif I've no idea why people loose their critical faculties when it comes this game, lemme give you an example

If a plumber came out to your house and did a half *ssed job after you'd paid him would you accept an excuse like: "Well i had too many deadlines but i needed your money as its christmas so i didnt really finish the job but dont worry I'll be back in the new year to sort it out so just wear wellies until then" ??

Would you go: "oh well, all the other plumbers round here are worse than him so i should be happy he even did half a job"??


If software companies want to release product thats not finished, buyers have every right to call them on it and I feel they deserve to have their reputations and sales hit by it.

Slammin_
10-25-2004, 06:13 PM
Man, this place sucks. I wish you moaners and whiners would just keep it to yourselves. Nobody asked for your opinion and since you choose to make it public, I see no problem with me letting you know what I think about your opinion. I think your unsolicited opinion (whining) sucks, and unless you are contributing by updating the bug thread, then as far as I'm concerned, you are doing nothing more than trolling.

mucker
10-25-2004, 06:29 PM
Once again,

General example of a UBI IL2 related forum:

1. Whiner whines
2. Fanboy attacks whiner,
3. Fanboys (in denial) attack fanboy who attacked OP whiner
4. Fanboy slings mud back and forth with other fanboys (in denial) (OP nowhere in site)
5. OP Whiner walks away with smile on face (hours ago)
6. Fanboy walks away with large smirk on his face (but will return later on)
7. Fanboys (in denial) keep posting away re-enforcing their nobility to the noobies.

You won't win here, period. Fanboy, whiner, whatever.....you're beating a dead horse.....

m

LuckyBoy1
10-25-2004, 06:39 PM
Finished?... as in over?... was it over when the German's bombed Pearl harbor? Was it?! I'ts not over 'till we say it's over! Now all I need is for a few guys to volunteer to perform a truly useless post... Woops! I see it's already been done! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif

heywooood
10-25-2004, 06:51 PM
See - the beauty of these public forums is that you get the whole range of opinions from informed to insane.

And the interpretations are as entertaining as the opinions themselves...

This is a software product - the developers have said repeatedly that it will be supported with follow on content and upgrades. We have seen this to be true with 1c so refasten your panties if you are crying about PF being 'unfinished' (or dont - because you silly a$$ whining is hilarious)

If you are not getting good frame rates... but you have a decent rig?...from what I have seen it is because you dont know how to configure your OS or you have altered the conf. ini. file without knowing what the he111 you are doing.

Thank you to planeater and Penguin and BV for posting. I do not have PF yet but inspite of the negative posts I cant wait to see for myself - with my rig - configured correctly and patched eventually how beautiful it is.

Thanks to Oleg and Ilya for making the best attempt so far to ACCURATELY model WW11 aviation. I was thinking the other day about what future flight sims of this genre will look like - long after all reference material is gone and there are no more flying examples or documents of any kind.
I see now why 1c is committed to getting the historical accuracy level as high as they can....someday there will be no better depiction than FB AEP PF etc. of how these machines looked and how they flew or how they were used.

In a way, it has already happened - the IJ references seem to be very difficult to find as is much of the Russian material.

I see many people saying 'what doesit matter if the FM is off or the cockpits are incorrect as long as we have the plane'.. but thats not what Oleg and co. are trying to accomplish.
Any halfa$$ed programmer can make an inaccurate 3d Zero and then fudge a flight mod. for it. It will have nothing to do with the real airplane and no kid sitting at a computer in 2004 flying it will know the difference...

Out of respect for the people that designed these planes in 1938, 39, and 1940 and the people that built them and that flew them in combat - Oleg and 1c have decided to try to their best abilities to be honest and accurate.

They have also committed to improving and increasing the content in the near future.
What more can you ask for realistically.

Slammin_
10-25-2004, 07:26 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by mucker:
Once again,

General example of a UBI IL2 related forum:

1. Whiner whines
2. Fanboy attacks whiner,
3. Fanboys (in denial) attack fanboy who attacked OP whiner
4. Fanboy slings mud back and forth with other fanboys (in denial) (OP nowhere in site)
5. OP Whiner walks away with smile on face (hours ago)
6. Fanboy walks away with large smirk on his face (but will return later on)
7. Fanboys (in denial) keep posting away re-enforcing their nobility to the noobies.

You won't win here, period. Fanboy, whiner, whatever.....you're beating a dead horse.....

m <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


LOL http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

I am guilty of #6!

Really though, attacking the developers, publishers, mods and fanboys is not the answer for certain and I don't have to ask you to read what heywooood just posted, as his sentiments are probably a most accurate representation of majority here. It is just this small group that seem to come out of the woodwork everytime we get something new, flailing and spinning like little tykes, and as in the past, long before they even get the sim, that really make the loudest noise.

Me, I'll reserve my comments about PF until after I get it, and then do not expect any unsolicted opinion from me, since I will probably get called a fanboy, and deservedly so, since I leave myself open to that if I see fit to put myself out there like that.

Does this fit #6 or #7 above? I can't really tell. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Penguin_PFF
10-25-2004, 10:38 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by oisink:
If software companies want to release product thats not finished, buyers have every right to call them on it and I feel they deserve to have their reputations and sales hit by it. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You are blurring the practical distinction between Developer and Publisher.

I don't think you'd disagree with what I've got open in 3DS MAX right now. If I say to you that the game is still being worked on... It's still being worked on. I don't lie.

oisink
10-26-2004, 03:00 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Penguin_PFF:
You are blurring the practical distinction between Developer and Publisher. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Thats very true, but as a buyer I dont have to distinguish. The product is the product, how it got to the shelf is not going to matter to most people who buy this game


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
I don't think you'd disagree with what I've got open in 3DS MAX right now. If I say to you that the game is still being worked on... It's still being worked on. I don't lie.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And i believe you mate, I'm fully confident that PF will be a great game when it's patched and some of the wrinkles are ironed out, Im just pointing out that i have a problem with software thats released before its functional.

As for the high pitched whining/anti whining noise: GB Shaw once said: " all progress depends on the unreasonable man." http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

bazzaah2
10-26-2004, 04:09 AM
I played PF for the first time last night and it looks/plays pretty good for me. No real complaints (as yet). Oh dear I must be a fanboy.

All you guys who are so incensed by the quality of what you have paid for, sell it on ebay or get your money back from where you bought it. If you're not happy, exercise your consumer rights/choice; v simple. You could even post bugs and wait for the patch, but that maybe too radical a choice for some. I accept that.

But, of course, I do not take into account the joy of whingeing and the pleasure of dissatisfaction to be had in all this.