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proteinbar1234
12-02-2007, 12:01 AM
Finally, an another unorthodox protagonist in a major entertainment title. Frankly, there aren't many Arab-ethnicity or Muslim-faith protagonists in movies or videogames lately. All the dirt-treatment by the media was (and still is) probably working. That's why it's all the more pleasing to see Ubisoft acting cool and writing an original Muslim protagonist (and what a cool character and cool name too!!).

That being said, some crazy extreme right wingers from down south and some crazy folks in Israel probably won't be too pleased with what Ubisoft has done. I say don't be afraid, Ubisoft, be original and keep creating cool Muslim heroes.

cooldude6681
12-02-2007, 12:10 AM
Altaïr and Desmond aren't Muslim. Well, Altaïr isn't, and we haven't been told what Desmond is.

stix489
12-02-2007, 12:12 AM
Altair isn't Muslim...nor Christian...nor Jew...nor atheist...etc...

He is spiritual...that's all!

proteinbar1234
12-02-2007, 12:18 AM
You mean atheist?

You are of course aware that there weren't many atheists or "simply spiritual" people in Jerusalem in those times, right? And you are of course aware that A) that cult was hunting down mainly Christian targets B) that cult was working for Salah-ud-Addin. C) in Islam, having a Muslim father is a both a sufficient and necessary condition for being a Muslim (in contrast, in Judaism the orthodox religion is passed down the mother's side).

Are you choosing to ignore the overwhelming logical and historical reasons why Altair is Muslim? Are you uncomfortable with the idea of a Muslim protagonist? Are you slightly xenophobic? Would you suddenly derive less enjoyment from the game if you believed that the protagonist is Muslim? Baah, I feel sorry for you then.

DreamerM
12-02-2007, 12:20 AM
We've been told that Altair's the product of a mixed marrige between a christian woman and a muslim man, and that he himself doesn't really practice any religion despite being a deeply "spiritual" man.

Historically I happen to think the Muslims were in the right. They'd been sharing the Holy Sites and living peacefully in the Holy Land for thousands of years and never was there any problem until the stupid Christain Europeans showed up with the weird idea that it was THEIR holy cause to "free" the lands from those who'd lived there since almost the start of human history. The Muslim Cause of wanting these crazy fanatics out of their kingdoms is perfectly understandable. Cuz lets face it, the Crusades were a crazy bad idea, and it was the Christians who came up with it. ARGH!

cooldude6681
12-02-2007, 12:21 AM
You must be unaware, then, that the developers decided to make Altaïr spiritual, rather than Muslim or Christian.
Edit: Directed at proteinbar http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/shady.gif

stix489
12-02-2007, 12:22 AM
I was just gonna say that cooldude! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

DreamerM
12-02-2007, 12:25 AM
in Islam, having a Muslim father is a both a sufficient and necessary conditionin for being a Muslim (in contrast, in Judaism the orthodox religion is passed down the mother's side).


Agreed. He probably is Muslim, the same way I'm Christian: My family history indicates me as such, though I myself was never baptized and don't practice. I believe in a Higher Power, but I happen to not think it matters what name you call Him by, because it's the thought and what's in your heart that matters.

Altair, being raised at the very heart of so much religious bloodshed in the name of one god or another, might very well decide that what matters is the spritualism and the Power itself, not the name you call Him by. He might have found his own faith through his life with the Assassins and their creed and goals. Conscientious desenters are something that's always existed.

I agree with you by the way though: that it is very cool that they cast a man of Muslim Descent as a main character. That's something we should see more of: Islam has a long and very interesting history, and there are numerous opertunities for Heroic actions.

proteinbar1234
12-02-2007, 12:28 AM
Hmm. Okaaay... *SIGH* I Googled "Altair's religion" and I found that the developers made Altairs religion ambigious.

Did the commercial cowardly instinct get the better of Ubi then? Sigh. And here I was thinking that Ubisoft has created a bold character. They either have a wormy xenophobic executive in their midst who pushed for a last-minute "edit" of Altair's persona or they were scared that idiots would not buy the game if they knew that Altair is Muslim.

Zain0
12-02-2007, 12:33 AM
Originally posted by DreamerM:
We've been told that Altair's the product of a mixed marrige between a christian woman and a muslim man, and that he himself doesn't really practice any religion despite being a deeply "spiritual" man.

Historically I happen to think the Muslims were in the right. They'd been sharing the Holy Sites and living peacefully in the Holy Land for thousands of years and never was there any problem until the stupid Christain Europeans showed up with the weird idea that it was THEIR holy cause to "free" the lands from those who'd lived there since almost the start of human history. The Muslim Cause of wanting these crazy fanatics out of their kingdoms is perfectly understandable. Cuz lets face it, the Crusades were a crazy bad idea, and it was the Christians who came up with it. ARGH!

Altair is not Muslim dude, no matter what the facts are, main reason is probably because Ubi didn't want to go through any controversial bull**** and also that it kinda fits in with the story, if you've played the game you'd see that he does not believe in God.

I'm not being against Muslims or anything.. After all, I'm Muslim myself.

proteinbar1234
12-02-2007, 12:34 AM
"cool that they cast a man of Muslim Descent as a main character. That's something we should see more of: Islam has a long and very interesting history, and there are numerous opertunities for Heroic actions."

DreamerM, that's exactly what I thought when I created this thread! But now that I found how cowardly and coldly-commercial Ubisoft have acted, I feel like they have wasted a wonderful and bold opportunity.

DreamerM
12-02-2007, 12:43 AM
DreamerM, that's exactly what I thought when I created this thread! But now that I found how cowardly and coldly-commercial Ubisoft have acted, I feel like they have wasted a wonderful and bold opportunity.

Keep up hope man: you said yourself that if a woman marries a Muslim that's enough for his son to be considered such, even of that son is unobservant. That this hero of a major video game even has immediate Islamic roots is a step forwards. Don't give up, it'll happen someday!

And I think Ubi wanted to emphasize not the commercial, but the humanitarian aspect of the Assassins. They'll kill anyone, Christian, Muslim, Jew, Anyone who is repressing people and causing suffering. They basically need their own Creed to be able to do that. They need to be seperate so they can judge all sides.

It's a simplification of history, but it's a message I can't argue with.

stix489
12-02-2007, 12:44 AM
Why does it mater that much to you if he's Muslim or not...It's a game for crying out load!

proteinbar1234
12-02-2007, 12:59 AM
re-read my post (answer: because it's bold and brave) and don't evade what I already asked of you.

stix489
12-02-2007, 01:03 AM
My post should have gave you the answer...I don't really care if the hero of a game is Muslim or not. It's a game...now go on and enjoy it the way it was made.

DreamerM
12-02-2007, 01:16 AM
Originally posted by proteinbar1234:
re-read my post (answer: because it's bold and brave)

It would have. And it would have gone a long way towards historical objectivity.

Hey, he's of Islamic descent, so that counts for something, even if his own beliefs are different, right?

AirRon_2K7
12-02-2007, 01:19 AM
Originally posted by proteinbar1234:
Hmm. Okaaay... *SIGH* I Googled "Altair's religion" and I found that the developers made Altairs religion ambigious.

Did the commercial cowardly instinct get the better of Ubi then? Sigh. And here I was thinking that Ubisoft has created a bold character. They either have a wormy xenophobic executive in their midst who pushed for a last-minute "edit" of Altair's persona or they were scared that idiots would not buy the game if they knew that Altair is Muslim.

I'm a Muslim, so don't get the wrong idea. (Disclaimers... gotta love 'em)

Don't you think that people might take it the wrong way since you said " And here I was thinking that Ubisoft has created a bold character."

I mean, why does Alty need to be Muslim for him to be bold, or any of the other praises you gave him?

*sigh* Looks like a simple question isn't enough for the "debater" in me...


But now that I found how cowardly and coldly-commercial Ubisoft have acted, I feel like they have wasted a wonderful and bold opportunity.

How do you know that? Allow me to pend a few questions, feel free to answer them.

Have you played the game?

Have you completed the game?

Did you research/ understand the ending?

If yes to the above Have you tried to link Altair's ambigious status to the plot, or the ending?

No offense the either of you (DreamerM, preoteinbar1234) but you sound a bit ... weird. Why does Altair's religon... count... for anything? In short, it really doesn't. Ubi aren't cold or weak for their decision, but I think that you'll find that the protagonist's status could make the plot flow over a lot easier.

Now to destroy your logic from a few posts back


You mean atheist?

Well no, because he said "not atheist"


You are of course aware that there weren't many atheists or "simply spiritual" people in Jerusalem in those times, right? And you are of course aware that A) that cult was hunting down mainly Christian targets B) that cult was working for Salah-ud-Addin. C) in Islam, having a Muslim father is a both a sufficient and necessary condition for being a Muslim (in contrast, in Judaism the orthodox religion is passed down the mother's side).

You are of course aware that this is a game, right? Not only should you be aware of that, but also of the fact that this game isn't totally about the 3rd Crusade. The game is basically about conspiracy (goddam spelling), and one of the main facts about this game is that it bends history. ... bloody just play the game. Also, in the game, you hunt down and kill men from both sides (I doubt Salah-ud-Addin asked you to kill his own men). Also, A child could easily drop religon, I mean, it's easy enough to devote yourself to religon, what's so hard about dropping it?


Are you choosing to ignore the overwhelming logical and historical reasons why Altair is Muslim? Are you uncomfortable with the idea of a Muslim protagonist? Are you slightly xenophobic? Would you suddenly derive less enjoyment from the game if you believed that the protagonist is Muslim? Baah, I feel sorry for you then.

Are you choosing to ignore the overwhelming fact that Altair isn't Muslim? Why are you making unfair and basically stupid observations of someone who's debating how badly wrong you are?


Would you suddenly derive less enjoyment from the game if you believed that the protagonist is Muslim? Baah, I feel sorry for you then.

It's basically the complete opposite for you. You find out that your idol isn't Muslim, and then you run around in circles cursing Ubi for being cold, and cowardly. Baah, I feel sorry for you.

proteinbar1234
12-02-2007, 01:46 AM
AirRon, maybe you are right in the sense that this is "just a game" and I am reading too much into this. Regarding your questions, no I haven't yet finished AC.

"Are you choosing to ignore the overwhelming fact that Altair isn't Muslim? Why are you making unfair and basically stupid observations of someone who's debating how badly wrong you are?"

"You find out that your idol isn't Muslim, and then you run around in circles cursing Ubi for being cold, and cowardly."

There's a fine line between an idol and a protagonist, therefore you are wrong. All I am saying is that, given the story, the setting and the realities of the time period, it would have made much more sense for the character to be of Muslim faith rather than simply spiritual. We are talking about the 12th century, you see. The decision to make the character "simply spiritual" is odd, given what I have just mentioned above.

And, given the setting, it would have been relatively easy for Ubi to leave the character within the logical Muslim faith and get away with it yet do something bold and rare. I'm not Muslim but the bare fact that there aren't many Muslim protagonists in the media around doesn't escape me.

wepeel
12-02-2007, 01:55 AM
All I am saying is that, given the story, the setting and the realities of the time period, it would have made much more sense for the character to be of Muslim faith rather than simply spiritual. We are talking about the 12th century, you see. The decision to make the character "simply spiritual" is odd, given what I have just mentioned above.

Honestly it's refreshing to see a character living in the middles ages who isn't obsessed with religion or doing the work of a god.

In miserable and evil times such as those, it takes a strong mind and a strong character to put your destiny in your own hands and put your faith in yourself and your abilities rather than a divine being.

proteinbar1234
12-02-2007, 02:18 AM
Hmm that's an interesting point! I haven't really thought of it that way!

Also, to reinforce the point that Altair is not a perfect or ultra-positive character, we must remember that he kills. That's why AirCon's point about Altair allegedly being an idol is false: how can you idolise someone who takes others' lives? The answer is that you can't, no matter what the character's religion is or how 'cool' he is.

AirRon_2K7
12-02-2007, 02:24 AM
That's why AirCon's point about Altair allegedly being an idol is false: how can you idolise someone who takes others' lives?

AirCon is quite a cool name http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/shady.gif. But maybe idol was a heat-of-the-moment rude thing that popped into my head. You can't idolise the means in which he attempts his goal (ie. killing), but perhaps you can idolise what he stands for: peace. No?

MiniAssasin
12-02-2007, 02:32 AM
alot of epopel idolise george bush...not many granted but he taken countless lives

AirRon_2K7
12-02-2007, 03:49 AM
Originally posted by MiniAssasin:
alot of epopel idolise george bush...not many granted but he taken countless lives

One of the best gramatically correct statements of all time. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

But yeah, it happens a lot. Although you will have people that say simply that Bush hasn't taken any lives... simply 'cos he hasn't pulled the trigger...

NightChild
12-02-2007, 03:52 AM
Originally posted by proteinbar1234:
You are of course aware that there weren't many atheists or "simply spiritual" people in Jerusalem in those times, right? And you are of course aware that A) that cult was hunting down mainly Christian targets B) that cult was working for Salah-ud-Addin. C) in Islam, having a Muslim father is a both a sufficient and necessary condition for being a Muslim (in contrast, in Judaism the orthodox religion is passed down the mother's side).


Keep in mind thought that the original assassins were outcasts as well during the 12th century, and that they seem to have their own view on religion.

Copy-paste from Wikipedia (yes I know it's not exactly the best scientific source out there, but I'm too lazy to dig in the books/ googlescholar/ university library)

"Most Muslim contemporaries were obviously suspicious of these "Holy Killers"; in fact they were described using the term Batini. The term was sometimes used pejoratively to refer to those, especially Ismaili, who distinguished an inner, esoteric level of meaning (batin) in the Qur'an. This constant religious estrangement would eventually see them go so far as allying with the Occidental Christians against Muslims on a number of occasions."

link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hashshashin

What I like about the character is the fact that he doesn't take a side. He respects both relgions equally and simply longs for peace. I wish everybody did.