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View Full Version : P-38 vet gives IL-2 a thumbs up



PlaneEater
06-18-2005, 02:04 PM
My grandfather tried out the P-38 with my flight yoke a couple days ago.

He had a little more than 60 combat missions over Italy during 1943 as a photorecon pilot, flying stripped down P-38F/G/Hs and Js, along with some 38's that were so heavily modified they blurred the lines; his squadron had at least two stripped down F airframes with the larger J engines that could do 400mph at sea level. He was shot down twice (Fw-190 and ground fire, respectively), and served as a flight instructor after his combat tour. He finished up in the reserves. He doesn't have his log book anymore, so I don't know exactly how many hours he had in P-38s, but he's sure it was at least a thousand.

Despite being a computerphobe, my rushed setup (got the elevator backwards and the input curves for the yoke were a little slow), his not being familiar with the British / Russian brake system we've got in the game, and the lack of per-engine throttles which gave him the fits trying to taxi, he got a kick out of flying it.

His biggest critique is that there isn't enough in the way of definition of ground details (which is a technology limitation we all realize), and that the controls were a bit touchy. He also thought the aileron and elevator response for the P-38 were on the low side (that might have been my input settings). He said the controls took some work, but when you put muscle into them, the plane went.

Other than that he thought it was pretty impressive.

You've got another veteran behind you, Oleg. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

ZG77_Nagual
06-18-2005, 02:27 PM
Thanks for this one Planeater!

Fliegeroffizier
06-18-2005, 03:58 PM
Definitely thanks for the input...

I'd say that you should take his comments on aileron and elevator response being too "touchy" and simply adjust your settings for yaw and roll accordingly to make your sitck a bit "slower"...

Over the years, there have been several threads reporting the comments of Real WWII pilots on the accuracy of IL2/FB/PF FM's/Controls. Seems to me that the most repeated comment is that of your grandfather's, that the WWII birds(control input) were more sluggish in response than the Sim; but again, that sort of advice can be used in this SIM to easily adjust settings for best realism.

VW-IceFire
06-18-2005, 08:17 PM
Originally posted by Fliegeroffizier:
Definitely thanks for the input...

I'd say that you should take his comments on aileron and elevator response being too "touchy" and simply adjust your settings for yaw and roll accordingly to make your sitck a bit "slower"...

Over the years, there have been several threads reporting the comments of Real WWII pilots on the accuracy of IL2/FB/PF FM's/Controls. Seems to me that the most repeated comment is that of your grandfather's, that the WWII birds(control input) were more sluggish in response than the Sim; but again, that sort of advice can be used in this SIM to easily adjust settings for best realism.
Definately heard that too. I think its sometimes a little outside of Oleg's control with all the different sticks on the market and setups that they go with.

I've toned my controls down more recently. Before the 4.01 patch by several months actually. I think its given me a bit of a leg up actually...I make less random moves and keep my smooth flight a bit better.

PlaneEater
06-18-2005, 08:34 PM
He actually had two seperate criticism of the controls, actually. First was that for small inputs, they were too twitchy. That's clearly a control curves issue.

His OTHER issue was that the aileron and elevator authority were too low at full deflection, ie. when he pulled back all the way, the nose wasn't coming around fast enough, and when he rolled all the way over, it wasn't rolling fast enough. Since the pitch / roll curves were set to 100 for the last two points, this means he was saying the speed the plane pitches and rolls at was too slow.

F19_Ob
06-19-2005, 03:09 AM
Thanks for sharing with us. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

Try to add some filtering in inputsettings to the axis he thought was too twitchy and see if that helps any.

I have a twiststick and that automatically makes the rudder twich more since the twistrange is short and it wants to return to center, but with filtering the twitch is smoothed out reasonably.

----------------------------------------------

What's his opinion (feeling) about the p38's chanses against a 109 and/or a fw190?

Several 109 pilots claims they didn't worry too much about the p38 after they had tried it (a (captured p38).
G√ľnther Rall and Galland worried more about the p51 and p47.
They both got some critisism for those remarks but thats how they felt.
any comment?

Sorry for asking all these questions but living pilots from those days are rare and get rarer all the time.

regards

horseback
06-20-2005, 11:34 AM
PlaneEater's grandfather's appraisal matches my expectations. The P-38's elevator response in the game is poor compared to the real thing, and the overall roll seems a bit slow-my understanding is that it was sluggish getting started (control cables stretching?), but that once it did get started, it moved pretty quickly, and it spun around pretty good at higher speeds.

The twitchiness seems to me to be an exaggerated trim response more than a filtering issue. The nose raises & lowers too much at speed for an aircraft universally described as solid and stable at all speeds-it's almost impossible to trim it as it accellerates or slows down.

As for German pilots who took a repaired wreck up for a quick spin and decided it was easy meat, most experienced exponents of the Lightning stated flatly that it took something like 200 hours in the P-38 before you were able to master it and fully realize its potential. That's something like two months of near daily flights, weather allowing, under most circumstances at that time. Unlike many of the single engined types, it was more complex than necessary and the cockpit layout was decidedly, umm...'unique,' shall we say?

Mackie Steinhoff had a decidedly different view from Galland's, acquired against F/G models in North Africa and Italy flown by pilots properly trained and experienced in it. He feared it, and stated that their elevator allowed them to pop into a near instantaneous climb, they could be on you immediately after a headon pass (superior turn and accelleration), and their guns produced a fearsome stream of lead.

cheers

horseback

Bogun
06-20-2005, 12:54 PM
S! PlaneEater,
Thank for posting your Grandpa‚‚ā¨ôs opinion.
His worlds are to be treasured for there are not many of people with real stick time in WW2 planes left. We appreciate your post, we appreciate job your grandfather did so very much!

BigKahuna_GS
06-20-2005, 02:54 PM
S!

__________________________________________________ _______________________
horseback Posted Mon June 20 2005 10:34
PlaneEater's grandfather's appraisal matches my expectations. The P-38's elevator response in the game is poor compared to the real thing, and the overall roll seems a bit slow-my understanding is that it was sluggish getting started (control cables stretching?), but that once it did get started, it moved pretty quickly, and it spun around pretty good at higher speeds.
__________________________________________________ _______________________



Agreed. Thank your grandfather for us, we apreciate him fighting for freedom in WW2. My dad flew for the USMC in WW2 & Korea and I had him fly the Corsair, Hellcat and SBD in PF. He had a little trouble interfacing with the computer-lol.

Which model of P38 was your grandfather flying in the sim when he made his comments ?

The P38L was hydraulicly boosted and had no "lag" time rolling.


__

heloguy
06-20-2005, 10:25 PM
It's nice to hear comments that come from real WWII pilots who've flown the game for a change, instead of the guys who "read something somewhere" and think they're Chuck Yeager.

Tizona
06-21-2005, 05:06 AM
Thank you for so interesting input http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif


I think that this common problem about veterans finding difficult to get accustomed to our current controls is justified simply because they are used to those LONG sticks they had, which had a much longer movement range, so having a much more progressive response.

At SCW project we also have let old SCW veterans to test I-16s and the like, and their first complaint has been the short stick we had.

stubby
06-21-2005, 06:07 AM
Oleg and Co. really need to come up with a more intuitative interface when it comes to tweaking joystick controls (ie sensitivities). Ideally, he should allow a plane specific profile to be created such that once it's created, it's automatically used when ever that user (based in 'pilot' name) flies that plane. Ok, my rose colored glasses are off.

Chuck_Older
06-21-2005, 09:53 AM
I wonder if the real solution is a three foot long joystick that sits on the floor, instead of an 8" tall joystick, as far a control feel is concerned. The moment arm is so short on the joysticks we have, that small inputs must tend to produce coarse results

PlaneEater
06-21-2005, 11:59 AM
I had him set up with a CH Flight Yoke, Chuck. To me, the man's a hero. I wouldn't skimp on him by giving him a joystick to fly a P-38. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Enforcer572005
06-25-2005, 12:15 PM
wow, thanx for his input, and thank him for gettin goin when the goin got tuff back in the big one. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

have you considered asking him for some details of his combat tours, and maybe documenting this for the future? Im really fascinated by the in field mods they used. Lefty gardner raced his J model (or was it an l) with F model fairings because they were streamlined.

there is very little account of the recce pilots misns. Im curious as to the circumstances of his shootdowns etc. man, i love talking to these guys and reading every word they say. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

there are few planes that are as surrounded by questions and mysteries as the P38. Martin Caidens excellent book sure heaped alot of light on the subject, but the more questions we get answered, the more arise.

Blackdog5555
06-25-2005, 12:58 PM
great post PE... BTW, did you grandfather try the "Late" L. Did he comment on stall characteristics...

Aaron_GT
06-25-2005, 01:18 PM
My dad flew for the USMC in WW2 & Korea

Thank him for us.


The moment arm is so short on the joysticks we have, that small inputs must tend to produce coarse results

I've seen joystick extensions for sale. Maybe some duct tape and a broom handle would make for a good experiment, and then if it works it might be possible to pick up an old joystick and transfer the handle to the end of a rod, extending the button wiring back down to the body. If I did that I'd have to think carefully about where to put the rudder pedals!

p1ngu666
06-25-2005, 01:51 PM
if u could
ask him how he lined up his "targets" for photo recon (high level ones), and what it felt like flying alone over germany or whereever.

also, what did he do if he was intercepted?

geetarman
06-27-2005, 10:24 AM
Wow! Last of a breed for sure. Thank him for me. Any other tidbits he can bring out about his time in 38's would be greatly appreciated.

Tex-Hill-AVG
06-27-2005, 11:13 AM
Originally posted by Enforcer572005:


have you considered asking him for some details of his combat tours, and maybe documenting this for the future? Im really fascinated by the in field mods they used. Lefty gardner raced his J model (or was it an l) with F model fairings because they were streamlined.

there is very little account of the recce pilots misns. Im curious as to the circumstances of his shootdowns etc. man, i love talking to these guys and reading every word they say. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

there are few planes that are as surrounded by questions and mysteries as the P38. Martin Caidens excellent book sure heaped alot of light on the subject, but the more questions we get answered, the more arise.


Yes PlaneEater, please set up a camcorder, set him down & interview him. We need first hand experiences like his to be recorded for our future generations. Here's a site that might help: http://oralhistory.minds.tv/index.asp

Please tell him thank you for all of us.


God Bless,

Tex Hill

PlaneEater
06-27-2005, 11:43 AM
He's written out a pretty thorough memoirs, which I'm going to clean up (spellcheck, formatting, etc), and publish after he passes away (his decision). It's a great read. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I also have an entire manifest of his squadron's planes and their final disposition. Lots of Did Not Returns.

p1ngu666
06-27-2005, 02:27 PM
yeah, on photo recon they normaly got you or they didnt, a few did make it back tho, seen pics of shot up photo recon mossies

MAILMAN------
06-29-2005, 09:48 PM
Originally posted by 609IAP_Kahuna:
S!

__________________________________________________ _______________________
horseback Posted Mon June 20 2005 10:34
PlaneEater's grandfather's appraisal matches my expectations. The P-38's elevator response in the game is poor compared to the real thing, and the overall roll seems a bit slow-my understanding is that it was sluggish getting started (control cables stretching?), but that once it did get started, it moved pretty quickly, and it spun around pretty good at higher speeds.
__________________________________________________ _______________________



Agreed. Thank your grandfather for us, we apreciate him fighting for freedom in WW2. My dad flew for the USMC in WW2 & Korea and I had him fly the Corsair, Hellcat and SBD in PF. He had a little trouble interfacing with the computer-lol.

Which model of P38 was your grandfather flying in the sim when he made his comments ?

The P38L was hydraulicly boosted and had no "lag" time rolling.


__

I am curious what your dad's comments were regarding the roll rate of the Corsair. In PF's flight model it seems to roll too slowly as speeds gets above 160 KIAS. The P-40 rolls much faster at higher speeds than the Corsair in this flight sim. I can only roll quickly at the very top of a Hi yo yo or immelman when if I am at 160 KIAS. From the accounts I have read about Corsair roll rate according to its pilots that due to its lighter (fabric) control surfaces it was light on the touch and rolled extremely well at high speeds. Additionally from what I have read the F4U rolled similar, although not as well, as the FW.

Also was WEP in the Corsairs that had it at the end of the throttle travel or was it a seperate switch, knob, button, wheel, lever that engaged WEP/Boost (water/ water-methanol injection) in the Corsair. No US plane in PF has seperate WEP, but British aircraft and Japanese aircraft do have seperate WEP from throttle.

zombiewolf92553
07-04-2005, 12:28 AM
your grand fathers memories are very important GOD Bless him
If he the time or inclination record his memeories WOW! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

Krt_Bong
07-10-2005, 07:49 AM
Originally posted by Enforcer572005:
wow, thanx for his input, and thank him for gettin goin when the goin got tuff back in the big one. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

have you considered asking him for some details of his combat tours, and maybe documenting this for the future? Im really fascinated by the in field mods they used. Lefty gardner raced his J model (or was it an l) with F model fairings because they were streamlined.

there is very little account of the recce pilots misns. Im curious as to the circumstances of his shootdowns etc. man, i love talking to these guys and reading every word they say. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

there are few planes that are as surrounded by questions and mysteries as the P38. Martin Caidens excellent book sure heaped alot of light on the subject, but the more questions we get answered, the more arise.
Are you speaking of The Last Dogfight a book which features a red and white '38 with sharks teeth on the radiators? Loved it was supposed to be a movie made from it but alas Hollywood is fickle