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uppurrz
05-01-2009, 05:29 PM
While searching for some new books on the net came across 2 that look real interesting.

http://www.aerostories.org/%7Eaerobiblio/IMG/arton971.jpg http://www.aerostories.org/%7Eaerobiblio/IMG/arton1088.jpg

Unfortunately they are in French. The revues seem quite complimentary and a translated excerpt I found (see below) gives some insight to what the Luftwaffe had to contend with. Have any that read French read these books and would you recommend buying them? The price start at EU66 (~$87US) each (plus shipping) and would have to be well worth that price with my high school French.

At Kleinkarolinenfeld, around ten pilots who no longer had aircraft piled into a truck at dawn on 27 April 1945 in order to drive to the airfield at Bad Wörishofen and take delivery of Messerschmitt 109s fresh out of the factories. Fw. Arnulf Meyer (9. Staffel) never forgot the scenes they witnessed that day:

Rows of Messerschmitt 109s and Focke-Wulf 190s lined up around the airfield perimeter, others out in the open (!) under the odd camouflage net. Teams of oxen in yokes in the midst of all this enabled the aircraft to be moved around without utilizing any manpower or fuel… At least one hundred fighters from the assembly lines were dispersed around the field. The Officer that met us showed us the latest sub-types to be delivered: Focke-Wulfs with in-line engines and in particular the Messerschmitt Bf 109 K, an improved sub-type of our “Gustav” model. There was bustling activity on the field. Aircraft were landing and taking off constantly. There was no airfield protection Rotte in the air. Our surprise was even greater when we were told that thirty brand new aircraft were due to arrive at the depot that day if the necessary pilots to ferry them in could be found. We were presented to the airfield commander who had set up his office in a comfortably appointed wooden shack: a fatherly Major who gave us a pleasant welcome. Of course we wanted to take the Bf 109 Ks… He asked us for our papers indicating our various type ratings but after scrutinizing them, he handed them back with a shake of the head and simply said: “sorry, I can’t give you any K-4s. You’ve only flown the G-10, so take the G-10s!”

We tried to explain to him that whether they were the G or K variant, they were still Messerschmitt 109s and any mods were almost certainly to be of a minor nature, unlikely to impact on the handling qualities of the aircraft. He did not appear particularly convinced by our arguments, but I noted how keenly he eyed us smoking our American cigarettes. These were retrieved from US prisoners and our Spieß always had them in his stocks. As naturally as possible, I offered the Major one of these cigarettes. His face lit up. Just for good measure, I left a barely started packet on his desk. He thanked me and told us that he was going to see what he ‘‘could do”. In the minute that followed, more packets of cigarettes changed hands and in this way we soon had authorization to take the Messerschmitt Bf 109 K-4s!

We went to select our Messerschmitts in the company of the line chief, who asked us what our destination airfield was. The fuel crisis had also reached this field. Our aircraft were fueled with enough for thirty minutes flying time, which was largely sufficient to get back to Kleinkarolinenfeld. On the other hand the armament magazines were empty. We were given parachutes and life jackets. Suddenly we saw a car drawing up and out climbed the depot commander. He told us in a voice bereft of emotion that he was not sorry that we were taking the 109 Ks. Then he read the text of a teleprinter message he had just received. The presence of American troops and tanks was reported ten kilometers from Bad Wörishofen and he was ordered to immediately destroy all the aircraft housed on the airfield. The Major explained to us that the 109s were easier to blow up than the 190s, as they carried as standard a delayed-action 3 kg explosive charge in the fuselage housed next to the fuselage fuel tank. We smoked a last cigarette together with the officer. The imminent debacle seemed more of a relief to him than anything else. He had fought during the First World War and had been wounded but was of the opinion that the disaster befalling our country was of a much more serious nature on this occasion. He hoped that we would soon be back among our families and that we would not risk our lives pointlessly. He started up his car and drove off.

My first takeoff in the Bf 109 K held no surprises. The aircraft was poorly trimmed and the compass was not functioning, which meant that I had to follow my comrades blindly. A typical product of our war industry in 1945: the instruments were incorrectly calibrated and there was nothing coming through the oxygen mask. Fortunately our flight level did not exceed 1,000 meters. We all landed without incident at Kleinkarolinenfeld. Happily enough the brakes worked…"

uppurrz
05-01-2009, 05:29 PM
While searching for some new books on the net came across 2 that look real interesting.

http://www.aerostories.org/%7Eaerobiblio/IMG/arton971.jpg http://www.aerostories.org/%7Eaerobiblio/IMG/arton1088.jpg

Unfortunately they are in French. The revues seem quite complimentary and a translated excerpt I found (see below) gives some insight to what the Luftwaffe had to contend with. Have any that read French read these books and would you recommend buying them? The price start at EU66 (~$87US) each (plus shipping) and would have to be well worth that price with my high school French.

At Kleinkarolinenfeld, around ten pilots who no longer had aircraft piled into a truck at dawn on 27 April 1945 in order to drive to the airfield at Bad Wörishofen and take delivery of Messerschmitt 109s fresh out of the factories. Fw. Arnulf Meyer (9. Staffel) never forgot the scenes they witnessed that day:

Rows of Messerschmitt 109s and Focke-Wulf 190s lined up around the airfield perimeter, others out in the open (!) under the odd camouflage net. Teams of oxen in yokes in the midst of all this enabled the aircraft to be moved around without utilizing any manpower or fuel… At least one hundred fighters from the assembly lines were dispersed around the field. The Officer that met us showed us the latest sub-types to be delivered: Focke-Wulfs with in-line engines and in particular the Messerschmitt Bf 109 K, an improved sub-type of our “Gustav” model. There was bustling activity on the field. Aircraft were landing and taking off constantly. There was no airfield protection Rotte in the air. Our surprise was even greater when we were told that thirty brand new aircraft were due to arrive at the depot that day if the necessary pilots to ferry them in could be found. We were presented to the airfield commander who had set up his office in a comfortably appointed wooden shack: a fatherly Major who gave us a pleasant welcome. Of course we wanted to take the Bf 109 Ks… He asked us for our papers indicating our various type ratings but after scrutinizing them, he handed them back with a shake of the head and simply said: “sorry, I can’t give you any K-4s. You’ve only flown the G-10, so take the G-10s!”

We tried to explain to him that whether they were the G or K variant, they were still Messerschmitt 109s and any mods were almost certainly to be of a minor nature, unlikely to impact on the handling qualities of the aircraft. He did not appear particularly convinced by our arguments, but I noted how keenly he eyed us smoking our American cigarettes. These were retrieved from US prisoners and our Spieß always had them in his stocks. As naturally as possible, I offered the Major one of these cigarettes. His face lit up. Just for good measure, I left a barely started packet on his desk. He thanked me and told us that he was going to see what he ‘‘could do”. In the minute that followed, more packets of cigarettes changed hands and in this way we soon had authorization to take the Messerschmitt Bf 109 K-4s!

We went to select our Messerschmitts in the company of the line chief, who asked us what our destination airfield was. The fuel crisis had also reached this field. Our aircraft were fueled with enough for thirty minutes flying time, which was largely sufficient to get back to Kleinkarolinenfeld. On the other hand the armament magazines were empty. We were given parachutes and life jackets. Suddenly we saw a car drawing up and out climbed the depot commander. He told us in a voice bereft of emotion that he was not sorry that we were taking the 109 Ks. Then he read the text of a teleprinter message he had just received. The presence of American troops and tanks was reported ten kilometers from Bad Wörishofen and he was ordered to immediately destroy all the aircraft housed on the airfield. The Major explained to us that the 109s were easier to blow up than the 190s, as they carried as standard a delayed-action 3 kg explosive charge in the fuselage housed next to the fuselage fuel tank. We smoked a last cigarette together with the officer. The imminent debacle seemed more of a relief to him than anything else. He had fought during the First World War and had been wounded but was of the opinion that the disaster befalling our country was of a much more serious nature on this occasion. He hoped that we would soon be back among our families and that we would not risk our lives pointlessly. He started up his car and drove off.

My first takeoff in the Bf 109 K held no surprises. The aircraft was poorly trimmed and the compass was not functioning, which meant that I had to follow my comrades blindly. A typical product of our war industry in 1945: the instruments were incorrectly calibrated and there was nothing coming through the oxygen mask. Fortunately our flight level did not exceed 1,000 meters. We all landed without incident at Kleinkarolinenfeld. Happily enough the brakes worked…"

tagert
05-01-2009, 05:43 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by uppurrz:
We went to select our Messerschmitts in the company of the line chief, who asked us what our destination airfield was. <span class="ev_code_yellow">The fuel crisis had also reached this field. Our aircraft were fueled with enough for thirty minutes flying time</span>, which was largely sufficient to get back to Kleinkarolinenfeld. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Interesting..

In that there has been a lot of threads here about the 109K4 with it's 1.98 boost using C3 fuel..

Where the self proclaimed experts here in the forum painted a very different pictures..

They would have us belive that there was always plenty of C3 fuel to go around..

Yet here we have a historic note that there was a fuel crisis such that the fuel tanks were only HALF FILLED..

So I have to wonder..

If C3 fuel was so readily available as stated by some here..

And the airplanes might be flown away at any moment..

Or

Destroyed on the ground at any moment..

Why not fill the fuel tanks?

In that it would benefit the pilot who had to fly away in it..

Or

The guy on the ground tasked to destroy it..

The answer to me is clear..

There was not that much C3 fuel to go around..

uppurrz..

Did you read anything else in that book that would sugest the C3 fuel was hard to come by, thus the 109K4 was hard pressed to be flown even if it was cleared to fly?

Metatron_123
05-01-2009, 06:11 PM
Very interesting... Amazing that the aviation industry just kept going at this rate, even at this late stage in the war!

Falcke
05-01-2009, 06:22 PM
Very interesting read. Curious about those explosive charges fitted to the 109s, I've never heard of that before. Was this some sort of 'final months' modification?

Heliopause
05-02-2009, 01:34 AM
These books look interesting...
I think these fuel tanks where half filled because that was enough to fly back to their airfield.

uppurrz
05-02-2009, 05:33 AM
Haven't bought the books yet tagert but you do raise some interesting points.

Fw. Arnulf Meyer was in III./JG53 which was one of the units that was authorized to use the 1.98ata boost. III./JG53 is said to be equipped with K-4s but Meyer had never flown a K-4, as did the other 9 pilots from III./JG53, only G-10s. This raises the question of what model of 109 was III./JG53 actually equipped with?

Yes Metatron_123 but the build quality doesn't seem to that good.

Heliopause, yes but it also says there was a fuel crisis, and not just avgas. If there was a fuel crisis on that airfield it stands to reason that there was most likely a fuel crisis at their airfield as well. Both airfields were about the same distance from Munich, which would be a distribution centre. As tagert says, why not take fuel from the airplanes that were to be destroyed. That extra 1/2 tank would be nice to have. Another question would be, what fuel, B4 or C3, was put in the tanks?

tagert
05-02-2009, 11:28 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by uppurrz:
Fw. Arnulf Meyer was in III./JG53 which was one of the units that was authorized to use the 1.98ata boost. III./JG53 is said to be equipped with K-4s but Meyer had never flown a K-4, as did the other 9 pilots from III./JG53, only G-10s. This raises the question of what model of 109 was III./JG53 actually equipped with? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Very good point/question!

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by uppurrz:
Heliopause, yes but it also says there was a fuel crisis, and not just avgas. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Which must be the cause..

In that note from the story is says..

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> see story:
Teams of oxen in yokes in the midst of all this enabled the aircraft to be moved around without utilizing any manpower or fuel </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by uppurrz:
If there was a fuel crisis on that airfield it stands to reason that there was most likely a fuel crisis at their airfield as well. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Exactly!

Yet that is NOT the picture that is painted around this forum..

We are told by the self proclaimed 109K4 experts that C3 fuel was always available..

Yet here we have a historic note that the fuel tanks of the 109K4s were only half full..

Which is crazy when you consider the fact that 109s already have limited range!

A full tank would help in both cases..

1) A pilot shows up to fly the plane back to his base
2) A guy on the ground needs to destroy the plane before the allied overrun the airfield

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by uppurrz:
Both airfields were about the same distance from Munich, which would be a distribution center. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Another good point!

I think this historic story puts a nail in the coffin of this notion that C3 was readily available to all 109K4s..

Clearly it was not.

TX-Gunslinger
05-02-2009, 12:23 PM
Well, tagert, I guess there might be some truth to the overstatements concerning 1.98 K - I certainly never made any or campaigned for the varients inclusion.

On the other hand, this story represents a limited observation, in a limited location for a few hour period during the last month of the war. Other German aircraft besides the 1.98 K4 used C3 and they certainly made patrols and ground strikes during the last month of the war - JG26 and JG301 being two.

Uppurz, your transcript mentions 9 Staffel. Do you happen to know the Geschwader (JG) that this unit was assigned to, as described in this book?

III./JG53 has been mentioned above, from other sources.

A round of comparison/verification might produce interesting results.

As you pointed out, there is no description of the type of gas put into the tanks in this story.

Lastly, attempting to draw conclusions due to the relative distance from Munich, may not work well in this case. The German transportation system was in disarray - on a widely distributed front. Some units would have had too much of certain types of supplies, others would have had too little.

Certainly, with respect to 109K4 1.98 - there could not have been large numbers of these units actually utilized by many pilots. It would have been a relative rareity, perhaps as rare as a Ta-152 or D-11/D-13 - but I don't know. Luftwaffe records at the end of the war available in the "west", are few and far between.

Lastly, for me - the largest discrepiancy/defect in the late war 109 series is the amount of time one can run MW-50. I think that trumps almost any other consideration. No mission builder is forced to place a 1.98K 109 on a map.

Misuse of limted production variants, like the Ta-152 H, in historical scenarios is soley the fault of mission builders and server admins.

S~

Gunny

uppurrz
05-02-2009, 01:05 PM
TX-Gunslinger, the books are about JG300.

III./JG53 was based at Karolinenfeld from 13.4.45 to 1.5.45.

JG 53 was officially attached to the remnants of JG300 on 30 April 1945.

JG300 was not based at Karolinenfeld at that time, or any other time that I can find. I think it is safe to say 9 Staffel was in III./JG53.

How far were the synthetic fuel plants from Munich?

Kurfurst__
05-02-2009, 02:20 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Metatron_123:
Very interesting... Amazing that the aviation industry just kept going at this rate, even at this late stage in the war! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Indeed the industry was producing more fighters than ever, but it was a bit late awakaning. As far as 109s go, by spring 1945, practically all those produced were G-10 or K-4, which shared many internal components, most importantly, the DB 605D engine.

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e133/Kurfurst/109Neubau.jpg

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by uppurrz:
Haven't bought the books yet tagert but you do raise some interesting points.

Fw. Arnulf Meyer was in III./JG53 which was one of the units that was authorized to use the 1.98ata boost. III./JG53 is said to be equipped with K-4s but Meyer had never flown a K-4, as did the other 9 pilots from III./JG53, only G-10s. This raises the question of what model of 109 was III./JG53 actually equipped with? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Probably both, only a few units had 'purely' on type of aircraft (and frankly, performance of the late G-x/AS, G-10 and K-4 was very similiar) although its pretty difficult to find out the exact composition from books or site after 31 December 1944.

As for the 1.98ata boost question, as far as the G-10/K-4 goes, there is no relevance in the type, as both had exactly the same engine, the DB 605D, which could run at either 1800 PS or 2000 PS output, depending the availability of fuel. In other words, there both '1.98ata' G-10s just the same as there were '1.98ata' K-4s. Some G-14/AS were reportedly fitted with ASC engines (=2000PS), but there is next to no information on them.

In fact, for some reason you can find the C-3 fuel triangle more often on G-10s (especially those produced by WNF) than on K-4s.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
Heliopause, yes but it also says there was a fuel crisis, and not just avgas. If there was a fuel crisis on that airfield it stands to reason that there was most likely a fuel crisis at their airfield as well. Both airfields were about the same distance from Munich, which would be a distribution centre. As tagert says, why not take fuel from the airplanes that were to be destroyed. That extra 1/2 tank would be nice to have. Another question would be, what fuel, B4 or C3, was put in the tanks? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

On April 22 1945 Luftwaffenkommando West reported the following fuel stocks on airfields in Bavaria (note that this is the immidiately available stocks on bases, not the main stores) Apparently the availability of B-4 and C-3 was similar.

B-4 = 350,000 liters
C-3 = 284,000 liters
J-2 = 1,897,000 liters

(Thx to Thor).

There are some figures available for the ANR (the fascist Italian AF in North Italy) in the same period of April 1945, the fuel composition is the same (~50-50% B-4/C-3) as with LwKdo West in Bavaria.

Some of the material I have collected on the subject can be read at : http://kurfurst.org/Engine/Boo...5D_clearance198.html (http://kurfurst.org/Engine/Boostclearances/605D_clearance198.html)

jvmasset
05-02-2009, 02:57 PM
Hello uppurrz!

For your information the two volumes of the JG300 story are also available in english from Eagle Editions:

JG 300: June 1943 - September 1944 Volume 1: A Chronicle of a Fighter Geschwader in the Battle for Germany ISBN 978-0976103400
available 75$ on amazon.com

Jagdgeschwader Wilde 300 Sau: A Chronicle of a Fighter Geschwader in the Battle for Germany, Vol. 2: September 1944-May 1945 ISBN 978-0976103424
available 85$ on amazon.com

Cordially,

JVM

uppurrz
05-02-2009, 03:02 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by jvmasset:
Hello uppurrz!

For your information the two volumes of the JG300 story are also available in english from Eagle Editions:

JG 300: June 1943 - September 1944 Volume 1: A Chronicle of a Fighter Geschwader in the Battle for Germany ISBN 978-0976103400
available 75$ on amazon.com

Jagdgeschwader Wilde 300 Sau: A Chronicle of a Fighter Geschwader in the Battle for Germany, Vol. 2: September 1944-May 1945 ISBN 978-0976103424
available 85$ on amazon.com

Cordially,

JVM </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thank you very much JVM for that info. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

tagert
05-02-2009, 03:07 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by TX-Gunslinger:
On the other hand, this story represents a limited observation, in a limited location for a few hour period during the last month of the war. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Strange..

When someone trys to apply that same line of reasoning to the 150 octane usage..

All we hear is..

Couldn't happen!
No Way!
Wasn't used!
Nope!

Even though the allied supply was not under constant attack like the Luft supplies were..

Yet we are ask to be believe the Luft could do it but the allies could not..

Nope all the 109 guys need is one picture of a 109 with a C3 marker on the side and it is accepted as proof of wide spread usage.. Yet post reports of 38s and 51 using it and pictures of 51 using it and that is called some kind of anomaly that can not be used as proof.

Long story short double standards suck http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

tagert
05-02-2009, 03:21 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kurfurst__:
(Thx to Thor). </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Interesting..

So all this is based off your interpretation of Thors data?

Is Thor's data posted anywhere for others to read?

To see if they come to the same conclusion you did?

Also..

Where is the 'order' that the G-10 was cleared for 1.98 posted anywhere for others to read?

To see if they come to the same conclusion you did?

uppurrz
05-06-2009, 05:52 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kurfurst__:
On April 22 1945 Luftwaffenkommando West reported the following fuel stocks on airfields in Bavaria (note that this is the immidiately available stocks on bases, not the main stores) Apparently the availability of B-4 and C-3 was similar.

B-4 = 350,000 liters
C-3 = 284,000 liters
J-2 = 1,897,000 liters

(Thx to Thor).
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I count ~55 airfields in just Jagddivision 7 and there are many more minor airfields not shown in the map.
http://www.lesbutler.ip3.co.uk/jg26/gradnetz.htm

That might look like a lot of fuel but is an average of 11,527 ltr (2,533Impgal) of piston engine fuel at each airfield in Jagddivision 7. That is only enough fuel to fill ~22 fighters at each airfield ((400 + 640) / 2) and even less fighters if drop tanks are carried. If other airplanes like night fighters are included there is even less B4/C3 fuel to go around.

Where can Thor's document be found?

Kettenhunde
05-06-2009, 08:06 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> On April 22 1945 Luftwaffenkommando West reported the following fuel stocks on airfields in Bavaria </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I read that to be each airfield has that in the fuel stocks immediately available on the field.

That works out to a rough ballpark of about a weeks worth of fuel at each airfield for a Jagdgeschwader.

That is pretty low.

All the best,

Crumpp

csThor
05-06-2009, 09:53 AM
The source is an article in the german aviation history magazine "Jet & Prop" dated a few years ago. Unfortunately I don't have these issues here, so I can't say which one and on which page. The article was about the last days of the Luftwaffe, concentrating on the baviarian-austrian area. The magazine is strictly historical-minded, makes heay use of the Bundesarchiv and other trustworthy archives and always lists its sources. As such I find it extremely credible.