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arrowtalon
03-02-2007, 11:07 AM
Do the experience levels in IL-2 (Ace, Veteran, Average, Rookie) affect how the aircraft adheres to the flight model?

Examples: I am often shot at and struck by AI Veteran and Ace planes from distances greeater than .45 km. Historically, this is wholly inaccurate. Most kills occured in the range of .15 to .30 km. Any kill made beyond .4 km was rare and considered lucky. In-game, the Ace and veteran AI make these kills regularly.

There are also discrepencies in roll rate at low velocity. Many of the in-game aircraft roll as fast at 250km/hr as they do at 500km/hr! Many planes also have climb rates unattainable by human players which leads to historically faster human controlled craft being outrun by historically slower AI controlled aircraft. (I point out a human P-51 chasing an AI 109 at high altitude.)

I do not notice these discrepencies while playing human opponents online. The flight model seems much more accurate, and most kills are made at approximately the correct range.

Widowmaker214
03-02-2007, 11:17 AM
The long and the short of it.
Yes they do. They run a simplified flight model.
You'll see them doing what we refer to as "UFO" manuvers. Things the planes can't really do.
Its just how it is. They don't suffer black outs and they can see you at all times even through the clouds.
And the higher the skill level, the more precise thier gunnery is.
ACE level will drill you in the cockpit ALOT.
Humans though, fly with the human flight model.
So they are restricted to the same things you are.

arrowtalon
03-02-2007, 11:32 AM
You'll see them doing what we refer to as "UFO" manuvers. Things the planes can't really do.


For example, that crazy swooping roll the Zeros do when you're on their tail?

So then, do the Average AI aircraft follow the laws of physics more closely? Or are they simply not allowed to have the "bonus" characteristics the Ace and Veteran AI have?

FritzGryphon
03-02-2007, 07:10 PM
I've never seen any performance difference between the AI levels. It just changes their behavior and maneuvers they will do.

If you place a Rookie and Ace plane side by side and have them race to a target, they will both arrive at the same time. You, however, will be left far behind.

AKA_TAGERT
03-02-2007, 07:27 PM
AI does not pay taxes.. thus no motivation to cheat

lowfighter
03-02-2007, 09:29 PM
AI don't overheat and they always fight at emergency power settings, that's for sure, very easy to test.
As for AI aerobatics depending on AI skill level, the veteran and ace seems to me very fancy flying, comparing to RL war footage (and even Hollywood movies lol). Depends also on the AC type, I like pretty much the P40 AI flying, pretty sober flying. I wish the average would be given the option to shoot as a veteran.
Shooting them down it's not a problem but seeing them doing crazy maneuvres just kills the immmersion.

WB_Outlaw
03-02-2007, 10:14 PM
IIRC, Oleg has said before that the AI does NOT have a simplified flight model. They do, however, fly with incredible skill, especially at low speeds and high AOAs. As others have said, they don't suffer from overheat and, thus, can leave you in the dust.

--Outlaw.

knightflyte
03-03-2007, 12:05 AM
Originally posted by WB_Outlaw:
IIRC, Oleg has said before that the AI does NOT have a simplified flight model. They do, however, fly with incredible skill, especially at low speeds and high AOAs. As others have said, they don't suffer from overheat and, thus, can leave you in the dust.

--Outlaw.

He may have said that, but it's bull ****.

I know AI runs ROUTINES. It's not like they can think on their feet and react like a human, but there are definate strategies to dog fighting and manuevers. I wish more of them could be incorporated instead of allowing them perfect engine management/WEP.

Often times if you don't get the AI on the first attack and you end up in a chase scenario the game turns into a mouse emulation game. The AI knows where your reticule and cockpit frame is and flys accordingly.

I get my share of kills, but many times it's not because I use proper tactics. There are MANY times we are approaching each other and I have alt and speed advantage and poof within 15 to 20 seconds they've made up the 1000-1200 meters alt difference AND gotten on my tail.....

I can't wait for BoB. There's a lot I LOVE about IL2, but I HOPE that Oleg makes the AI fun for off line players.

To be fair KEEP IN MIND this game was originally a ground assault game with 109s attacking IL2 as they went on their task of bobmbing German positions. There were about 11 planes in the game and maximum altitude was about 1500 to 200 meters. This game has grown immeasuribly beyond that scope. On an engine that's probably 6 -7 years old including developememnt time.....that's not too shabby.

It's time for a new one.

lowfighter
03-03-2007, 12:35 AM
Yeah, overall I think AI improved, one which is obvious is the B&Z planes using better their strength now. Remember, back at the beginning, a FW would try to turn with an il2...till he was a sitting duck and easy to shoot by the il2 human player...

WWMaxGunz
03-03-2007, 02:41 AM
Tom McGuire in the PTO in P-38's was reported to have made many kills at out to 800 meters.

I have shot up metal targets (okay, car wrecks) at that range with 30 cal MMG. If the target
does not dodge before the shots get there then even 30 cal will cause damage. And the higher
you are when you shoot, the less air resistance taking speed off your shots is modeled.

IF they can hit you THEN you may be screwed. Cockpit side windows and often cockpit sides will
not keep even 30 cal from wounding or killing the pilot at long ranges. If you think that is
not real then you need to spend some time and money down at a big gun range where they'll let
you set up more than just paper at long distances. I've busted rocks at 200 yards with much
less powerful cartridges. Will every hit be a kill? No. But cockpit and engine hits will
have good chance of ending your ride while some other hits have a chance of controls damage.
How many engines we have that are sworn one hit, any bullet, engine kills? Many.

The idea is not to get hit! A target that slightly weaves will be hard to hit past 200 meters
for example just because of bullet travel time. Past 300 meters the only way to hit is to
be able to predict the swing of the target, anyone who weaves back and forth always the same
can get 'touched' by one burst long enough to cover one such swing.

And the AI is a real dope at hitting long range targets that do not keep a steady path.
They also do not dodge until you have spent a certain time (seconds only) inside some range
from you which if you come in much faster than them and shoot starting from 300+ then you
can mess them up before they respond.

AKA_TAGERT
03-03-2007, 08:57 AM
So.. if you can not blame the FM for getting shot down.. than blame the AI?

My Drill Sgt in basic had a saying.. "THE MAXIMUM EFFECTIVE RANGE OF AN EXCUSE IS 0.0m"

Does anyone here own a mirror?

I see a lot of guys not only saying the AI cheats.. but saying it is EASY to TEST!

Ok.. prove it.. show me your test!

Now if I were going to do it I would record a track file showing 'it'!

What ever 'it' is?

In that this so called cheat seems to vary from one person to the next. Some say they never overheat.. Some say they pull away from you.. etc.

On that note Ill give you all a little hint.. The only plane you can collect DeviceLink data from is YOUR plane.. The second part of that hint is that when you hit auto pilot the AI is flying YOUR plane.

If your top speed goes beyond the rated top speed when the AI takes control.. Or if your temp suddenly drops when the AI take control.. Or if some other 'it' suddenly changes when the AI takes control..

Than I will belive.

But until than.. All I see is a bunch of guys making excuses for THEIR short comings!

AVGWarhawk
03-03-2007, 10:50 AM
I find the AI more realistic than a human counterpart. Only because they are easier to shoot down. They do seem to be masters with engine management http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

Mysticpuma2003
03-03-2007, 10:55 AM
The only I time I see them cheat, is when they start to roll over and over and over....and then hit the ground...not really cheat more of an exploit...in my favour http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Chivas
03-03-2007, 01:09 PM
If you have trouble combating AI tactics and aircraft you will have no chance on-line against human pilots.

DKoor
03-03-2007, 03:19 PM
Originally posted by AKA_TAGERT:
I see a lot of guys not only saying the AI cheats.. but saying it is EASY to TEST!

Ok.. prove it.. show me your test!

Now if I were going to do it I would record a track file showing 'it'! I'm personally sick of rantings without track, so in that we agree.
Ai is cheating all right, and you know that too.
There is no need for posting the tracks but still... I have some good ones.

I have small pack which shows us higher terminal dive speed for A6M (on +900kph 1,5k alt A6M doesn't even shake) and another track show Ai piloted IL-10 firing one cannon without recoil (second cannon is jammed).
You have mission file so you can repeat it on your machine, just hit "A" as soon as mission loads.

There are also funny Ai Tempest landing approach and wingless Yak flying relatively straight... until it crashed, I don't claim these two tracks are cheat but certainly are funny. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

What made me lol about this Ai whining is in some cases user seem to complain how Ai is hard... but they are turkey shots even on ACE level. Only when you have 2+ enemy Ai aces around you things become hot.

http://rapidshare.com/files/19264178/DKoorAi-CheatPack.rar.html

msalama
03-03-2007, 03:33 PM
They don't cheat, they just manage their rides perfectly. From the v4.01 readme: "It doesn't matter if it is human or AI, because our AI pilots use the same FM!"

Which then basically leaves us with two choices:

1) Oleg is lying.
2) This is a BS complaint.

Now which one would _YOU_ say it is?

DKoor
03-03-2007, 03:54 PM
Originally posted by msalama:
They don't cheat, they just manage their rides perfectly. From the v4.01 readme: "It doesn't matter if it is human or AI, because our AI pilots use the same FM!"

Which then basically leaves us with two choices:

1) Oleg is lying.
2) This is a BS complaint.

Now which one would _YOU_ say it is? Sorry but I think you are wrong about this.
Nor Oleg is lying nor this is a BS complaint (I consider "lying" to be very subjective).
We could go deeper into matter here, but I suppose that isn't necessary.

If I took the time to create, collect and upload the tracks I suppose that one should take a look at them of courtesy if nothing else.

arrowtalon
03-03-2007, 04:25 PM
I think we need to clarify that the "complaint" as some have called it isn't that "the AI is too hard." I think we all agree that's not remotely true.

After going through the readme's (new and old), I trust Oleg that they're using the same flight model, but if they know EXACTLY how hard to roll without stalling, that gives them an advatage over any human. It doesn't make them smarter or better, but as some said above, it kind of spoils the immersion.

To test aircraft, I always go up against two Aces, 1 v 2. The biggest annoyance is that at .5 km with high rate of closure, the AI will open up their guns, often while in a climbing, rolling turn at the edge of a stall that most humans would not be able to maintain for more than a second, and peg my cockpit.

Online, this happens rarely. And even the best shooters I've faced (not including surprise boom and zoom attacks) don't have that kind of accuracy until about .35 km, which is plausible.

I think the most logical explanation for the AI is that they have a numerical, perfect 'feel' for how to handle their plane and shoot. That, and if they don't overheat, would explain everything I've seen offline.

So, I think the AI can follow the same FM and still "cheat."

WWMaxGunz
03-03-2007, 06:22 PM
Originally posted by AKA_TAGERT:
Does anyone here own a mirror?

I do but I have to be careful not to smile at them.

lowfighter
03-04-2007, 01:01 AM
Well AI not overheating is so EASY TO TEST, whoever WANTS to test just take a plane in QMB, set yourself invulnerable and have unlimited ammo, and set 16 enemy AI against you (just to force the fight beying longer). Hit autopilot. Watch the temp gauges rpm etc. But only if you want to hehe.
Bye

msalama
03-04-2007, 01:17 AM
OK, sorry, I was a bit sharp there guys - though somewhat on purpose, granted, because it does create discussion doesn't it http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

But yes, basically it's like you gents said already, i.e. those buggers have an advantage over us humans because of their ability to manage their rides with numerical accuracy. But how could this be avoided? Well of course the first (simple) thing that comes to mind is to create some random error values proportional to their skill level and throw those into the mix or something like that. But what if Oleg & co. are doing that already? What would _then_ be the next step to take?

Now I'm not saying the AI couldn't be better. What annoys me f.ex. is their ability to see through the clouds, and there surely are other legit complaints as well. But what it all still boils down to, IMHO, is just the nature of the beast, i.e. designing good and plausible AI is a monstrously difficult task indeed...

leitmotiv
03-04-2007, 02:30 AM
BOB2 from Shockwave has far better AI---their AI aircraft are capable of stalling out, for example. Also, they are a heck of a lot livelier in the superior AI levels---one will flit out of your sight in a millisecond. Compared to the AI in BOB2, the AI in IL-2 seems sluggish.

DKoor
03-04-2007, 06:52 AM
Originally posted by lowfighter:
Well AI not overheating is so EASY TO TEST, whoever WANTS to test just take a plane in QMB, set yourself invulnerable and have unlimited ammo, and set 16 enemy AI against you (just to force the fight beying longer). Hit autopilot. Watch the temp gauges rpm etc. But only if you want to hehe.
Bye On top of that you can do another thing: select one plane let's say Bf-109G. Fly it to the maximum throttle settings. After some time it will overheat, continue to fly it on max in overheat state.
Temp will rise some more.

Then engage autopilot.

Temp will remain the same (in ~120?C region!) and autopilot will continue to fly on that temp for as long as it has fuel... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

Originally posted by msalama:
OK, sorry, I was a bit sharp there guys - though somewhat on purpose, granted, because it does create discussion doesn't it http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

But yes, basically it's like you gents said already, i.e. those buggers have an advantage over us humans because of their ability to manage their rides with numerical accuracy. But how could this be avoided? Well of course the first (simple) thing that comes to mind is to create some random error values proportional to their skill level and throw those into the mix or something like that. But what if Oleg & co. are doing that already? What would _then_ be the next step to take?

Now I'm not saying the AI couldn't be better. What annoys me f.ex. is their ability to see through the clouds, and there surely are other legit complaints as well. But what it all still boils down to, IMHO, is just the nature of the beast, i.e. designing good and plausible AI is a monstrously difficult task indeed... In fact I agree with you, good Ai to create isn't easy task. How can that be done I don't know. But to be honest I'm not non-satisfied (http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif) with the current Ai (meaning I'm satisfied lol). And if they obey all the rules we obey they would be practically walk over.
In that regard compromise has to be made. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
Current Ai cannot be more better with little modification, it can be only more pleasing/or hard to the player side... but for some revolutionary improvements, I'm afraid we're gonna have to wait BoB. And I really am holding my breath about Ai SoW. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/inlove.gif

Originally posted by leitmotiv:
BOB2 from Shockwave has far better AI---their AI aircraft are capable of stalling out, for example. Also, they are a heck of a lot livelier in the superior AI levels---one will flit out of your sight in a millisecond. Compared to the AI in BOB2, the AI in IL-2 seems sluggish. Yes I noticed the same thing. Took Hurricane Mk.I vs. Ai 109E. At first glance I thought I'm flying vs. Münchenberg or some other German top ace... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_redface.gif
He outmanouvered me like a school girl and I desperately searched for him... of course I found him when I saw tracers and flashes on my fuselage http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

XyZspineZyX
03-04-2007, 07:21 AM
Here is the singular and most obvious (although curiously overlooked) aspect of what AI plans can do:

They are flown by your PC. The AI "sees" all the 0s and 1s. You don't. The AI knows they are some numerical value away from another numerical absolute. You don't have that advantage. You must 'feel' and wait for the plane to respond. the AI knows what to do without interpreting results. The equation for your best turn speed versus your AoA and current energy state never pops into your mind. Well, the AI has that info available every second, along with every other calculation. That's quite an advantage

joeap
03-04-2007, 08:05 AM
Originally posted by BBB462cid:
The AI "sees" all the 0s and 1s. You don't. ...That's quite an advantage

Yes...we do.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/e6/Matrix_smithmany_600.gif

stalkervision
03-04-2007, 08:32 AM
Originally posted by leitmotiv:
BOB2 from Shockwave has far better AI---their AI aircraft are capable of stalling out, for example. Also, they are a heck of a lot livelier in the superior AI levels---one will flit out of your sight in a millisecond. Compared to the AI in BOB2, the AI in IL-2 seems sluggish.

Yup, Bob's ai is far far better, In fact I have managed on more then a few occasions to get a spit al pilot to stall and then came in for the kill. Also the ai acts like real humans are flying the planes and makes it quite a challange in one V one . http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

BillyTheKid_22
03-04-2007, 12:13 PM
Originally posted by joeap:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BBB462cid:
The AI "sees" all the 0s and 1s. You don't. ...That's quite an advantage

Yes...we do.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/e6/Matrix_smithmany_600.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>






http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

BillyTheKid_22
03-04-2007, 12:15 PM
I know, I don't like CHEAT!!!!! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/crackwhip.gif

AKA_TAGERT
03-04-2007, 01:52 PM
Originally posted by DKoor:
I'm personally sick of rantings without track, so in that we agree.
Roger


Originally posted by DKoor:
Ai is cheating all right, and you know that too.
Nope! If I knew it I wouldn't be saying prove it!


Originally posted by DKoor:
There is no need for posting the tracks
Disagree 100%!


Originally posted by DKoor:
but still... I have some good ones.
One might even say cherry picked ones!


Originally posted by DKoor:
I have small pack which shows us higher terminal dive speed for A6M (on +900kph 1,5k alt A6M doesn't even shake)
Saw that one and yes it did hit 900kph. So now the question is if this is proof that all AI cheats or a bug in the AI controlling the A6M. Quick way to prove it one way or another is to simply switch the plane type and see if that plane also exceeds it's dive speed. I did just that! I replaced the A6M with a 109K and low an behold the 109K pulled out of the dive much sooner than the A6M. So there is proof that NOT ALL AI cheats and that you may have simply found a BUG in the AI controlling the A6M. I will say this though, Oleg is most likly correct that the AI flys the same FM we fly.. but from that A6M track they clearly don't have the same DM running that we do! In that if you disable the AI while in that dive stuff starts flying off of the A6M! So if I had to guess there is some interaction between the FM and DM that is at play here when the AI takes control. I would agree it is a case of AI cheating if the 109K also dived beyond it's capabilities.. but it did not. Thus it is not AI cheating as much as some sort of bug IMHO. I would not be suprised if the AI has a slightly differnt DM to contned with.. In that there are AI planes that do NOT have fully developed FMs and thus probally have a seperate set of DMs to contend with too? Just a guess, but, I would not take this ONE case and use it to claim that ALL AI CHEATS IN ALL PLANES! I proved that by simply taking your mission and swaping the A6M with a 109K


Originally posted by DKoor:
and another track show Ai piloted IL-10 firing one cannon without recoil (second cannon is jammed).
I have seen simular things in the past.. There seems to be a disconnect between the real damage and the damage you see. That is the say the DM may have one value, and the 3D art may be dispalying something other than that. It is vary rare, but this too goes back to a potential DM difference between what the AI has to contend with and what we have to contend with.


Originally posted by DKoor:
You have mission file so you can repeat it on your machine, just hit "A" as soon as mission loads.
Roger did that for the A6M and saw what your talking about, than swapped it for a 109K and the problem went away


Originally posted by DKoor:
There are also funny Ai Tempest landing approach and wingless Yak flying relatively straight... until it crashed, I don't claim these two tracks are cheat but certainly are funny. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
Agreed 100%


Originally posted by DKoor:
What made me lol about this Ai whining is in some cases user seem to complain how Ai is hard... but they are turkey shots even on ACE level. Only when you have 2+ enemy Ai aces around you things become hot.
Agreed 100%

AKA_TAGERT
03-04-2007, 01:55 PM
Originally posted by lowfighter:
Well AI not overheating is so EASY TO TEST, whoever WANTS to test just take a plane in QMB, set yourself invulnerable and have unlimited ammo, and set 16 enemy AI against you (just to force the fight beying longer). Hit autopilot. Watch the temp gauges rpm etc. But only if you want to hehe.
Bye So is this your way of admitting that it is NOT easy? In that if it was than it should be just as EASY to make a track file with a short description of what to look for and what you 'FEEL' is a case of cheating.

As DKoor did, to which I found a very logical explanation for it that did NOT include cheating.

WWMaxGunz
03-04-2007, 02:48 PM
AI should not be able to take a plane past limits no matter the plane.
However since human may not find those limits, AI beating human is not proof of cheat.

The best old argument that did prove out before AI was using the same FM as players was
when plane was put in AP and engine could be shown to operate above limits and stay there.

The AI flys the same planes as players, we have been told. Not simplified FM, not better
planes. The difference ends at the stick. We don't have complete feel due to hardware
limits while they don't have those same limits. Big deal, the AI is only marginally smarter
than one out of four or five members of these forums anyway and never ever whines.

Chris0382
03-04-2007, 05:00 PM
on 1 or 2 offline missions I have spent 45 minutes chopping apart a plane at convergence range only to have it lay down in the water or on land and be indestructable.

horseback
03-04-2007, 06:23 PM
While I am NOT happy with the ai piloting the aircraft because of <span class="ev_code_YELLOW">the way they exploit the game's awareness</span> of the Player's position, speed, vector, the hygienic condition of your boxer shorts and whether you've called your Mother lately, the big difference between rankings appear to me to be how quickly your wingmen swoop in to steal the credit for the enemy aircraft you've just disabled. The Aces definitely 'warp' in, the Veterans just 'show up' at the critical moment, and the Average ones just lurk about, allowing hostile aircraft to buzz about unmolested. Only the Rookies usually know their place, and allow the Player to finish the job.

I would also state that I take the 'same FM/DM' claim with a largish grain of salt. EXCEPT for Overheat, EXCEPT for G-forces limits, EXCEPT for how much performance a heavily smoking/shot up aircraft performs (rudders, ailerons, and elevators shot off and they can still run away?), EXCEPT for variable convergence ranges (how many times have you seen the AI take out one target at 400m and then swoop in over your shoulder and absolutely catastrophically nail your intended target from 75m?), it's EXACTLY the same as the Player's airplane of the same model.

Similarly, I would maintain that there is a clear difference in the way the AI in the Player's aircraft behaves and how they behave in a 'pure' AI state, especially towards each other. I have yet to see an AI start the snap roll routine with an enemy AI fighter 300m behind him, or the gunners in a bomber blow away a fellow AI from 600m, even when he's making a classic level attack from six o'clock (in these cases, even against Rookie level gunners, the Player is 'smoked' at least 2/3rds of the time, grossly violating any semblance of reality).

Of course the AI cheat, but it's strictly a matter of semantics for all but the dedicated off-liners, whose standard is not competition, but a semblance of realism/immersion.

cheers

horseback

MrMojok
03-04-2007, 06:36 PM
If we are all the grognards we profess to be, then shouldn't any European campaign we make or play from mid-1944 onwards have 80-85% of Axis pilots on "Rookie" or maybe "Average" experience setting? And in a Pacific campaign maybe the same, only even earlier?

LStarosta
03-04-2007, 07:16 PM
Originally posted by BillyTheKid_22:
I know, I don't like CHEAT!!!!! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/crackwhip.gif

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif

Cheating is GAY!!!!!

BillyTheKid_22
03-04-2007, 08:26 PM
Originally posted by LStarosta:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BillyTheKid_22:
I know, I don't like CHEAT!!!!! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/crackwhip.gif

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif

Cheating is GAY!!!!! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>



ha!! I hate GAY!!!!!

horseback
03-04-2007, 08:44 PM
You and Anne Coulter, Billy.

cheers

horseback

horseback
03-05-2007, 12:29 AM
Billy, look up "irony".

No offense intended, merely trying to point out that saying certain things in public can lead to you being vilified by the self-righteous and self-proclaimed 'tolerant.'

cheers

horseback

BillyTheKid_22
03-05-2007, 12:52 AM
Originally posted by horseback:
Billy, look up "irony".

No offense intended, merely trying to point out that saying certain things in public can lead to you being vilified by the self-righteous and self-proclaimed 'tolerant.'

cheers

horseback


ha!!! No plm !!! Ok!! ha!! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif Drop done!!



http://www.levadesystems.co.uk/images/horse%20animations/donkey_kick_punching_clown_.gif

Pirschjaeger
03-05-2007, 11:46 AM
I don't think the AI are capable of cheating. I think they can simply take it too the edge and stay there. They do have inside information. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

p-11.cAce
03-05-2007, 12:16 PM
If the AI cheating is so bad as to ruin the game experience for you leave them alone and come online http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/typing.gif Of course there are a number of pilots online that are accused of cheating on a regular basis and the text from this forum could be cut and pasted into any of those discussions as well. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif

Rammathorn_
03-05-2007, 12:24 PM
Does anybody else get annoyed by the AI's tendency to begin a long series of diving aileron rolls with no apparent loss of E when you get on their tail?

BigSilverHotdog
03-05-2007, 01:25 PM
Personally I've never seen the AI "cheat" per se. I do notice that they tend to never overheat and rarely make mistakes that result in the destruction of a plane... but hey, they're pilots! Even a rookie pilot isn't going to stall and wreck on the first pass of his first dogfight!

I fight on Ace regularly and I do not like the lack of differences between Rookie and Ace. Aces simply are more accurate and fly aggressively, while Rookies can't hit anything unless you blunder into their shot. Rookies almost appear to purposely miss, shooting off the mark as if all he did was place the AI's aim OFF target.

I challenge anyone to record a track proving the AI has performed a move impossible for the plane he's in. I've never ever seen impossible acrobatics, no matter the difficulty level.

But then, I play offline with almost full realism constantly.

By the way, hello.

Adam906
03-05-2007, 11:25 PM
Originally posted by horseback:
While I am NOT happy with the ai piloting the aircraft because of <span class="ev_code_YELLOW">the way they exploit the game's awareness</span> of the Player's position, speed, vector, the hygienic condition of your boxer shorts and whether you've called your Mother lately, the big difference between rankings appear to me to be how quickly your wingmen swoop in to steal the credit for the enemy aircraft you've just disabled. The Aces definitely 'warp' in, the Veterans just 'show up' at the critical moment, and the Average ones just lurk about, allowing hostile aircraft to buzz about unmolested. Only the Rookies usually know their place, and allow the Player to finish the job.

I would also state that I take the 'same FM/DM' claim with a largish grain of salt. EXCEPT for Overheat, EXCEPT for G-forces limits, EXCEPT for how much performance a heavily smoking/shot up aircraft performs (rudders, ailerons, and elevators shot off and they can still run away?), EXCEPT for variable convergence ranges (how many times have you seen the AI take out one target at 400m and then swoop in over your shoulder and absolutely catastrophically nail your intended target from 75m?), it's EXACTLY the same as the Player's airplane of the same model.

Similarly, I would maintain that there is a clear difference in the way the AI in the Player's aircraft behaves and how they behave in a 'pure' AI state, especially towards each other. I have yet to see an AI start the snap roll routine with an enemy AI fighter 300m behind him, or the gunners in a bomber blow away a fellow AI from 600m, even when he's making a classic level attack from six o'clock (in these cases, even against Rookie level gunners, the Player is 'smoked' at least 2/3rds of the time, grossly violating any semblance of reality).

Of course the AI cheat, but it's strictly a matter of semantics for all but the dedicated off-liners, whose standard is not competition, but a semblance of realism/immersion.

cheers

horseback

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif

I don't think the AI cheats, just that the AI is too artificial. It rarely if ever makes mistakes (at least the top end sclae don't in my experience)

There isn't a single pilot that would react and handle a plane the way the AI do during every sortie he or she ever made. Have your aircraft's wing shot full of holes and see how well it turns and flares on approach and then compare it to how well the AI manage it.

The AI were never programmed to include weakness or 'brain fade' (or so it seems) Even the very best pilots made the odd rookie mistake once in a while

Compared to the AI in other games (flying and non-flying) the IL2 AI doesn't rank very highly unfortunately, but as it was pointed out eralir in the thread. The engine was never designed to handle what it has to deal with now (certainly not the NASA-like flights into the stratosphere you see a lot of Allied pilots doing online)

Badsight-
03-05-2007, 11:39 PM
you know . .. . "they" say there may have been a (beta) patch where the Ai "may" have been rather good

amazing even , for their realistic manouvers

Badsight-
03-05-2007, 11:41 PM
Originally posted by Pirschjaeger:
I don't think the AI are capable of cheating. I think they can simply take it too the edge and stay there. They do have inside information. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif this is more truthfull , for many different patches , than some care to admit

some patches the AI simply were controlled to the max perfomance possible , something you could emulate even if it was "rather" difficult

K_Freddie
03-06-2007, 03:23 AM
Replay a track of those AI UFO moves. You can also do these moves http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

msalama
03-06-2007, 03:42 AM
Hmmm... I've heard of them not overheating before, but frankly speaking haven't given it much thought until now. Well, gotta test the thing myself I suppose...

But other than that it's +1 to Fritz, Freddie, Tagert and Badshot there http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Blutarski2004
03-06-2007, 07:14 AM
Originally posted by K_Freddie:
Replay a track of those AI UFO moves. You can also do these moves http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif


..... I've always wanted to learn to perform thos 450 degree per second aileron rolls that the offline AI I-16 performs (at least on my PC).

Can anyone provide any hints on how to do this?

MEGILE
03-06-2007, 07:19 AM
Given the oppurtunity, the AI will always cheat for lack of a conscience

K_Freddie
03-06-2007, 07:39 AM
Originally posted by Blutarski2004:
..... I've always wanted to learn to perform thos 450 degree per second aileron rolls that the offline AI I-16 performs (at least on my PC).

Can anyone provide any hints on how to do this?

At the right speed (which the AI has been informed by Oleg http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif) kicking rudder in the same direction as the stick, plus engine torque will make it roll like a demon. Be ready to catch it as it goes out of control. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

M_Gunz
03-06-2007, 10:30 AM
Originally posted by Megile:
Given the oppurtunity, the AI will always cheat for lack of a conscience

For AI to have conscience would kill framerate worse than making them smarter than dogs.
Perhaps in SOW........

ViktorViktor
03-06-2007, 01:15 PM
Ok, I might look stupid asking this, but is the AI using complex engine management (or at least getting the advantages associated with CEM) ? How much of a performance bonus does complex engine management give one over a plane not using this ?
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

BigSilverHotdog
03-06-2007, 01:27 PM
Someone earlier had it right: it's not "cheating", its really just ESP. They know everything about you at all times and it enables them to make the best possible moves to every move you make. The only way to win is to have a superior plane and/or be a more accurate gunner (tough against an ace difficulty pilot).

Maybe next game!

horseback
03-06-2007, 07:19 PM
It's not so much ESP or cheating as it is akin to insider trading. The game has to track your exact postion, energy state, directional vector, and so on relative to the AI aircraft that are depicted and tracked on your mission.

The problem is that it uses that information to dictate the ai's actions <span class="ev_code_YELLOW">when a human pilot would not be able to know that information.</span> Why is it that the AI fighter always does that series of snap rolls as soon as your finger tightens on the trigger? Because the game TELLS that AI aircraft to evade the millisecond it senses that you've fired your guns, and in the time it takes for your guns to fire and the virtual bullets to travel to the AI a/c's expected location, he's vacated it violently.

As someone has pointed out earlier, they can literally hide behind your canopy framing while you're trying to track them through their excessive high-G rolls, loops and skids. I had a track from about three patches ago (4.02m) where a LaGG I was chasing was speeding up or slowing down to get back behind my 109's canopy frames as I toggled back and forth with Shft+F1. It looked pretty odd when I first reviewed the track in Wonder Woman view, but it made perfect sense when I switched to full real.

That's a trick Erich Hartmann couldn't match on his best day.

The AI not only have no blind spots, they go on to abuse their superpowers by picking almost exclusively on the Player, because they seem to play reasonably fair with each other. There's a definite "in your face" flavor to some of it, especially in the kill-stealing antics of 'friendly' AI.

Now, having said all that, the out-flying factor diminishes as you the player become more skilled in a new FM for a given airplane. The issue that chaps my hide the most remains the uber-gunners that cannot be adjusted to a realistic skill level.

Even Rookie level gunners can give you the oily windshield or PK at over 600m, which is approximately six times the maximum effective range of most of the real-life aerial marksmen (and these were true prodigies--I've worked on modern shipboard guns fire control systems that would be hard pressed to match the AI gunners' level of accuracy).

They shoot accurately when a real person in that gunner's postions would be hanging on for dear life just to avoid being thrown off his feet, seat, or out of the aircraft entirely. They are in fact MORE dangerous when the aircraft is being flung about than when it is flying straight and level, and to top it all off, they're the next best thing to bulletproof. You cannot disable a gunner by penetrating the fuselage around him or his guns by hitting them. You must put about three rounds into his EXPOSED body to disable him.

Those problems HAVE to be fixed in SoW:BoB or the Battle of Britain will be entirely too much fun for Kurfurst and his lot.

cheers

horseback

DKoor
03-06-2007, 07:32 PM
Originally posted by BigSilverHotdog:
Someone earlier had it right: it's not "cheating", its really just ESP. They know everything about you at all times and it enables them to make the best possible moves to every move you make. The only way to win is to have a superior plane and/or be a more accurate gunner (tough against an ace difficulty pilot).

Maybe next game! He he the best joke today http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
Check this out, versus Oleg artificial "aces"
http://rapidshare.com/files/19786336/quick.zip.html

We can still pwn them really really hard... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

And BTW just finished with horseback's epic post.
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif
100% http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

M_Gunz
03-06-2007, 07:52 PM
Originally posted by ViktorViktor:
Ok, I might look stupid asking this, but is the AI using complex engine management (or at least getting the advantages associated with CEM) ? How much of a performance bonus does complex engine management give one over a plane not using this ?
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

Depends entirely on how much the person using CEM misuses it. IMO if you use CEM well
then you stand a chance of getting just a bit more out of it, like the difference between
a stick shift and an automatic -- the older automatics were not the best at everything.
I can't say for the newer, multi-controlled ones now!
You can find out your mileage by testing speed, climb, etc, with CEM off and then on.

M_Gunz
03-06-2007, 08:01 PM
Originally posted by BigSilverHotdog:
Someone earlier had it right: it's not "cheating", its really just ESP. They know everything about you at all times and it enables them to make the best possible moves to every move you make. The only way to win is to have a superior plane and/or be a more accurate gunner (tough against an ace difficulty pilot).

Maybe next game!

If you make it so the AI has all the sense and control limits that humans have then you will
find just how smart they are not. Computers and the whole science of artificial intelligence
have a long way to go to make anything really good stand-alone let lone as a minor task on a
machine running loaded. Chess programs, game AI, etc, are all reflex-wired with some small
history and like chess programs some amount of reference 'book' to work from. Take away the
'eyes' and they have to rely on 'brains' which takes a mess more CPU and memory.

So you want AI doggies that can smell what you can't and hear better or you want human-limited
AI ******s-or-worse? Who guards the house best at night?

M_Gunz
03-06-2007, 08:19 PM
Originally posted by horseback:
Why is it that the AI fighter always does that series of snap rolls as soon as your finger tightens on the trigger? Because the game TELLS that AI aircraft to evade the millisecond it senses that you've fired your guns, and in the time it takes for your guns to fire and the virtual bullets to travel to the AI a/c's expected location, he's vacated it violently.

Nope. It just gets notice when you have gotten to a certain range and eeven then there is a
short delay. It's a weak spot for the AI if you come in with high speed difference and fire
before the delay, preferably before even crossing that range threshold. Don't spend time
lining up from close behind trying to get the perfect shot, they HEAR YOU same as anyone
with tweaked sound settings will and still there is a delay.
I've been creaming AI that way the whole time. Your best bet is to attack from an angle as
your delta will be even higher and you will therefore be much closer and already ruddering
the hits onto a critical spot before they do react thanks to the delay.
When I try to stealth up behind slow and steady and line up shots is when they go manic.
All that does is make me work to force their energy down, a really slow moving plane cannot
turn as hard -- if it stalls at one speed then it needs to be going faster to make G's
without losing alt.


As someone has pointed out earlier, they can literally hide behind your canopy framing while you're trying to track them through their excessive high-G rolls, loops and skids. I had a track from about three patches ago (4.02m) where a LaGG I was chasing was speeding up or slowing down to get back behind my 109's canopy frames as I toggled back and forth with Shft+F1. It looked pretty odd when I first reviewed the track in Wonder Woman view, but it made perfect sense when I switched to full real.

They get notice when they are seen but there is a range limit.


That's a trick Erich Hartmann couldn't match on his best day.

They don't have the smarts to be more than target drones otherwise.


The AI not only have no blind spots, they go on to abuse their superpowers by picking almost exclusively on the Player, because they seem to play reasonably fair with each other. There's a definite "in your face" flavor to some of it, especially in the kill-stealing antics of 'friendly' AI.

They went after the host primarily even in coops. Again it is a ranged thing.

Yes, give me realistic target drones! I want 20 kill missions!

Let's see hands of those that don't get pwned by the AI?

horseback
03-06-2007, 10:24 PM
My complaint about the super situational awareness is primarily aimed at immersion; when the AI is all-seeing and all-knowing, real-life tactics go right out the window, and that's what I came here for. Using the term 'World War II air combat simulation' implies that the offline campaign player should be successful using the correct tactics recorded in the pilots' reports and postwar analyses, and that is not true of this sim.

The ambush/sudden bounce accounted for far more shootdowns than the swirling dogfight. You can bet your sweet bippy that no actual fighter pilot wants a fair fight when they're firing live ordnance at him, and 99 out of a 100 would avoid engaging if possible when they were seen by the enemy prematurely.

The AI were in fact far superior in several regards, including the all seeing issue before the introduction of Pacific Fighters. Yeah, they could shoot you through the clouds, but if you got below them or behind them, they acted like they might if they didn't know exactly where you were. Why, some of the time, you could even count on your wingmen returning to base and safely landing without ordering them to. There seemed to be a certain amount of 'sequestering' of your positional data from the hostile AI, and less dependence upon it by the friendly AI.

I suspect that the processing power or programming resources originally allotted to the AI was sacrificed for the new FMs.

And it is NOT simply a matter of get within X range, and he enters a series of snap rolls. I've had multiple occasions over the last three weeks when I'd finally(!) get my crosshairs ahead of my intended target's vector well within the 300m range, and have him jink the opposite way juuuust as I pulled the trigger.

This particular behavior starts when you're about halfway through your ammo and it never occurs once you've run out. Run out of ammo, and suddenly, his avoidance maneuvers become much more realistic; he doesn't 'snap' out of your pipper an instant before he merges with it, or do that series of upward rolls to the opposite of your current trim settings.

Now, this is useful in a QMB, simply because it helps you to master your aircraft, but when I'm playing for points in a campaign, it's not challenging, it's frustrating, unrealistic, and totally bogus. And that kill stealing routine from your friendlies? Well, as I pointed out elsewhere, I've gotten enough of that **** on the job, and I play this game to escape that sort of thing.

cheers

horseback

AH_Gonzo
03-06-2007, 11:59 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/clap.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/clap.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/clap.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/clap.gif

ViktorViktor
03-07-2007, 01:05 AM
Horseback, I think the AI still has blind spots cuz I can still pull defensive maneuvers designed to make the AI attacker lose sight of me, and they still work. It could be, however, that success of these maneuvers depends on the the AI level of the plane chasing me. I don't often meet veteran or ace AI in my offline flying.

Also, like MGunnz says, if your closure rate is high, you can get in a solid burst before they react. This happens alot w/ me, since I like to bnz.

Finally, I have noticed that after the AI has reached his target and is heading for home, he becomes 'dumb and happy'. Many is the time I've followed an AI fighter flight heading for home, and knocked them off, one by one. They seem to prefer to use the gentle turn as a defensive maneuver if they're heading back to base. They don't usually aid a flightmate in trouble, either.

But as I said, I'm usually running into rookies and average AI pilots.

knightflyte
03-07-2007, 01:07 AM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif
re: horsebacks post

I LOVE THIS SIM. I really do, but there are immersion killers that sometimes make it less fun than it could and should be for off liners.

Will I stop playing? No. It's still very enjoyable. But I agree using proper WW2 tactics is difficult on many occasions for many reasons.

C'est la vie.

otpisan
03-07-2007, 04:59 AM
Well, there are 2 sides to the AI behaviour in IL-2, in my experience.

1. AI's engine does not overheat, there are no black- or red-outs, shooting is extremely accurate from very unrealistic distances (there seems to exist an in-flight variable convergence device http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif ), it can see through the clouds.

2. AI falls out of the sky for no apparent reason at all, wingman follows the leader blindly, though being shot at and cripplingly hit itself etc.

A few examples:

- a flight of 2 Ki-43 engaged me from the side with somewhat higher energy/altitude, I turned into them with my P-40E and took a shot while sliding with ample rudder - set 1 Ki on fire, sprayd the other a bit over the wings, received a few hits on my wings, leveled off and procedeed on my course without turning; the less damaged Ki went for another P-40 and was immediately engaged by the third one, the burning Ki proceeded straight on course, nose pointed slightly downwards, so I forgot all about it and went on after another bandit; 45 or so seconds later I happened to be jinking and turning so the bullets missed me, but there was the first Ki, the one with the burning engine, closing fast and shooting at me; http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

- Bettys that were shot at fly home and stay so low that sa few hit the hills fairly regularly -so, when playing offline, it surely pays spraying some of them when they are already leaving, then, when all of them are gone, landing and waiting a few accelerated minutes -every now and then, the "Enemy Aircraft Destroyed" warms my soul http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

- while flying IL-2, series 3 (the fastest one, without rear gunner, but with a pair of 23 mm cannons), being the flight leader, it is actually quite enjoyable flying a bit higher then instructed (2000m instead of 300m), monitoring the direction from which the 109s or 190 could come (usually the largest front-line airport) and, when observed, dive a bit for speed then slowly turn into them and THEN instruct the friendly AI to "Attack Fighters" -I never hit anything, but start a lead turn, though usually there is 1 out of 2 enemies left at most, for my wingman always scores a kill and sometimes number 3 or 4 as well; I do admit to having no problem with the friendly AI stealing my kills, as I am then free to go after another target http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Just my 0.02 Eurocents worth.

P.S.: I do have tracks of the first 2 above mentioned examples, though nowhere to post it. OTOH, it is quite easily reproduced, playing the P-40/1941 USAF off-line campaign, respectively: IL-2 1941 Leningrad.

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

AKA_TAGERT
03-07-2007, 07:19 AM
Originally posted by AKA_TAGERT:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DKoor:
I'm personally sick of rantings without track, so in that we agree.
Roger


Originally posted by DKoor:
Ai is cheating all right, and you know that too.
Nope! If I knew it I wouldn't be saying prove it!


Originally posted by DKoor:
There is no need for posting the tracks
Disagree 100%!


Originally posted by DKoor:
but still... I have some good ones.
One might even say cherry picked ones!


Originally posted by DKoor:
I have small pack which shows us higher terminal dive speed for A6M (on +900kph 1,5k alt A6M doesn't even shake)
Saw that one and yes it did hit 900kph. So now the question is if this is proof that all AI cheats or a bug in the AI controlling the A6M. Quick way to prove it one way or another is to simply switch the plane type and see if that plane also exceeds it's dive speed. I did just that! I replaced the A6M with a 109K and low an behold the 109K pulled out of the dive much sooner than the A6M. So there is proof that NOT ALL AI cheats and that you may have simply found a BUG in the AI controlling the A6M. I will say this though, Oleg is most likly correct that the AI flys the same FM we fly.. but from that A6M track they clearly don't have the same DM running that we do! In that if you disable the AI while in that dive stuff starts flying off of the A6M! So if I had to guess there is some interaction between the FM and DM that is at play here when the AI takes control. I would agree it is a case of AI cheating if the 109K also dived beyond it's capabilities.. but it did not. Thus it is not AI cheating as much as some sort of bug IMHO. I would not be suprised if the AI has a slightly differnt DM to contned with.. In that there are AI planes that do NOT have fully developed FMs and thus probally have a seperate set of DMs to contend with too? Just a guess, but, I would not take this ONE case and use it to claim that ALL AI CHEATS IN ALL PLANES! I proved that by simply taking your mission and swaping the A6M with a 109K


Originally posted by DKoor:
and another track show Ai piloted IL-10 firing one cannon without recoil (second cannon is jammed).
I have seen simular things in the past.. There seems to be a disconnect between the real damage and the damage you see. That is the say the DM may have one value, and the 3D art may be dispalying something other than that. It is vary rare, but this too goes back to a potential DM difference between what the AI has to contend with and what we have to contend with.


Originally posted by DKoor:
You have mission file so you can repeat it on your machine, just hit "A" as soon as mission loads.
Roger did that for the A6M and saw what your talking about, than swapped it for a 109K and the problem went away


Originally posted by DKoor:
There are also funny Ai Tempest landing approach and wingless Yak flying relatively straight... until it crashed, I don't claim these two tracks are cheat but certainly are funny. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
Agreed 100%


Originally posted by DKoor:
What made me lol about this Ai whining is in some cases user seem to complain how Ai is hard... but they are turkey shots even on ACE level. Only when you have 2+ enemy Ai aces around you things become hot.
Agreed 100% </div></BLOCKQUOTE>So good it was worth quoting

OD_79
03-07-2007, 08:08 AM
If I am honest they fly pathetically, I hate the way they just roll roll roll roll roll roll roll roll roll roll roll all the way down to ground level then climb a do it again. It's boring.

OD.

BGs_Ricky
03-07-2007, 08:12 AM
Originally posted by OD_79:
If I am honest they fly pathetically, I hate the way they just roll roll roll roll roll roll roll roll roll roll roll all the way down to ground level then climb a do it again. It's boring.

OD.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif

More than the perfect SA and plane management of the AI, what annoys me is that they can really kill the immersion factor in offline play with their silly moves....

K_Freddie
03-07-2007, 11:27 AM
Maybe in BOB, Oleg will enable us to get into the AI plane on a track replay. This way we can see if all this is true or not. After all Oleg did say that the AI 'obeyed' flight physics.
It's just tht most of us do not know CEM that well whereas the AI has known it from the start.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif

ViktorViktor
03-07-2007, 11:31 AM
Well, last time everybody was complaining about how easy the AI was.

Now everybody is saying that the new AI flies too well or outright cheats.

It sounds like the AI has become a tougher opponent. Is everyone happy ?

knightflyte
03-07-2007, 03:29 PM
Originally posted by K_Freddie:
Maybe in BOB, Oleg will enable us to get into the AI plane on a track replay. This way we can see if all this is true or not. After all Oleg did say that the AI 'obeyed' flight physics.
It's just tht most of us do not know CEM that well whereas the AI has known it from the start.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif


And my contention is that if I disable over heating and CEM I still can't keep up or rocket 1000 meters like they do. Thry still have an advantage that I can't equal even with turning off options.

I have been flying an La 5 at 510 kph with 1000 meter height advantage against FW 190s travelling in opposite directions. You tell me how an enemy gets on my arss within guns convergence range in 15 to 20 seconds without bleeding energy. It can't be done. (I'm being conservative on the estimate....if I counted it I bet it would be less time) He either HAS to extend and gradually gain height or try for a high angle of attack to try a snap shot thus losing energy. No, he's lining up on my dead six at cruise speed.

From there I barrel roll or get into a scissors match, but that doesn't explain HOW he attains position with no energy penalty.

If I get on an enemy to defend wing man or happen to miss on an attack then the AI gets very predictable. Theres only several things it does. The more annoying is the hide behind the cockpit bar and 'roll toward the ground to escape.'

You can be patient because it will pop back up like a horse on a merry go round. And I agree with what 'horseback' said about AI reaction to you when you're out of AMMO. It won't evade.

The AI isn't hard. It's unrealistic.

Again. I LOVE this game. I'm not going anywhere. There is more than enough to enjoy, and while some issues are frustrating I can and do find ways to win. IL-2's engine IS 7 years old. I can't complain. For my money I've got MORE than enough enjoyment and knowledge.

stalkervision
03-07-2007, 04:05 PM
Originally posted by ViktorViktor:
Well, last time everybody was complaining about how easy the AI was.

Now everybody is saying that the new AI flies too well or outright cheats.

It sounds like the AI has become a tougher opponent. Is everyone happy ?

Cheating in strange ufo ways is worse then the first. This is not a fix!

MrMojok
03-07-2007, 05:11 PM
Originally posted by ViktorViktor:
Well, last time everybody was complaining about how easy the AI was.

Now everybody is saying that the new AI flies too well or outright cheats.

It sounds like the AI has become a tougher opponent. Is everyone happy ?

It's fine for the AI to cheat, all AI routines in all games have to cheat somewhat in order to maintain a *semblance* of realistic-seeming behavior.

What a lot od people are irritated about is that in the past, there were versions of our game that made the cheating a lot less obvious. So we know 1C are capable of coding it that way.

And making the AI act more realistically does not automatically mean making them into flying paper targets.

DKoor
03-07-2007, 05:49 PM
I just checked out FB version 1.00.
This V4.08 Ai seems like Star Wars in quality compared to old noticeably more stupid Ai.
It crashes often into ground in QMB from no apparent reason.
And oh boy, it moves better than monkey whose tail's on fire... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif no really those moves just bring smile to my face and make current Ai moves look 100% historically authentic http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif
FB Ai is PoS compared to current V4.08. For sure. I'll make a few tracks and post...
I can go and patch all the way up to V2.04 (AEP) but I doubt that Ai can cope with PF V3.00 one or much less this V4.08 one...

V4.01 - V4.04 - was the time when BS Ai "spiral of death" was introduced - you could hit Ai in the wing (not fatal mind you) and it would just spiral and crash. Every time. Very annoying. It was cured with V4.04, but at almost same time Ai got boosted on E... heavily. And it is still that way.

So to conclude: old so called better Ai, can only be in period from V3.00 to V4.01, and even that is doubtful. Needs testing & checking.
TBH I played the game in those incarnations, but I'm afraid I can't tell much about Ai from those days I don't remember anymore...

edit
here are two FB V1.00 tracks on realistic settings
http://rapidshare.com/files/19946303/FB100-ai.zip.html

horseback
03-07-2007, 07:16 PM
I believe that I have more than once stated that the AI in the first 2 or 3 patch versions of Forgotten Battles were so unplayable that I stayed with the original Il-2 for almost another eighteen months before I felt that the AI were acceptable.

In fact, I am sure that it was the last patch version before the Aces Expansion Pack when I finally got on board with FB, and I thought things were pretty good overall until the introduction of Pacific Fighters. The only reason that I didn't keep the last version of FB/AEP on my hard drive was that the transition from the new FMs back to the old was getting progressively more difficult.

While I'm aware that the AI did pull a few UFO moves to stay competitive back then, they seemed to do it discretely. By that I mean that they didn't do evasion moves the split second I pulled the trigger, pull those bogus negative G moves in aircraft too light to handle that kind of stress (notably Oscars) or run or climb away from me in notably inferior aircraft (or overhaul me in the blink of an eye from 2 km away to steal my intended target while flying the same type a/c I was supposedly in).

The UFO moves were performed out of the player's view (or at least at a decent remove), and didn't openly insult his intelligence. If you had him in your sights when you pulled the trigger, he didn't jerk out of the line of fire every time. Your wingmen didn't outrun or outdive you in a blatant way, and they followed your orders. They even reported the presence of hostiles before leaving formation to attack (the Player's flight no longer does this, although auxiliary AI flights will).

Plus, there were very clear differences between Rookie, Average, and Veteran AI. Now, they all seem to fly and evade the same (inhumanly well), and the big difference is that the Veterans and Aces can hit what they're shooting at.

You used to be able to maneuver Rookies and Average AI into stalling and crashing, because they didn't fly as well as the Veterans and Aces. Bombers didn't start sideslipping and climbing out of formation when you got within 300m of their tails, and you could extend away from LaGGs, MiGs and early Yaks in a 109F, or from 109Gs and 190As in a Mustang/Spit IX.

Remember my standard? I want to use the classic tactics that I know worked in the real air combats; to take advantage of the aircraft's strengths and relative weaknesses like the men who fought in the skies over Europe, North Africa and the Pacific did.

My sole complaint is that the current set of AI routines and skill settings do not permit me to do that, and in fact blatantly deny it to me.

cheers

horseback

Tully__
03-07-2007, 08:38 PM
Regard AI:

Prior to version 4.01 if I recall correctly, AI used a simplified flight model that allowed the aircraft to do things the reall equivalents could not.

After that version the AI flight model (aircraft aerodynamics) is the same as the player model EXCEPT during scripted routines. The AI land according to a script and probably recover from spins according to a script but I'm not sure what other aspects of flight might be scripted. Dogfighting isn't scripted.

NOW... while flight model (aerodynamics behaviour) is the same in late versions for player and AI, engine model and pilot model are NOT the same. The AI doesn't suffer engine overheat and doesn't seem to suffer redout or blackout. This allows them to get the aircraft to do things without penalty that would get you and I killed.

On the other hand, even the aces have limited tactical variation and with a little experience can easily be countered, often easily countered by a human pilot in an inferior aircraft.

So in answer to the original question, yes they do "cheat" but not very well and a lot less well than in early versions of the game.

knightflyte
03-07-2007, 10:05 PM
Originally posted by horseback:
Remember my standard? I want to use the classic tactics that I know worked in the real air combats; to take advantage of the aircraft's strengths and relative weaknesses like the men who fought in the skies over Europe, North Africa and the Pacific did.

My sole complaint is that the current set of AI routines and skill settings do not permit me to do that, and in fact blatantly deny it to me.

cheers

horseback



ding ding ding ding!!!!!

To me THAT'S the fly in the ointment. I can follow ... coax ... or goad the enemy to gain a win if I've lost the SI situational awareness advantage. I can't use tactics that a WW2 pilot would use because the AI is able to manage energy and CEM too well to be realistic despite any energy state advantage I have.
If the enemy is already aware of me then it's a furball no different than Unreal Tournament.

That's the buzz kill.

I'll buy BoB. I'm not gonna pull a hissy fit. I like Oleg's product and am looking forward to this a lot, but I'd seriously rather have more diverse AI routines than working truck suspensions.

ViktorViktor
03-08-2007, 12:56 AM
My biggest gripe about the current AI is that I'll often lose visual contact with my AI flight in the course of an enemy engagement - despite my ordering them to 'clear my tail' or 'rejoin' repeatedly.

After the engagement I head for home and call for them to rejoin, and they acknowledge, but never show up - until I'm about 500 m from the runway and concentrating on my landing.

They then announce their presence by radioing 'I'm hit' as they fly into the ground behind me.

Why do they always show up only as I'm about to land ?

Adam906
03-08-2007, 01:40 AM
I've just flown a few online missions against members of my squad who were flying bombers and even though they were were throwing their crates all over the sky their gunners still remained pretty accurate in their firing.

Firing at feral animals whilst riding on the back of a moving pcik-up is hard enough. I can't imagine what firing with a heavy (eight wise) machine gun at another aircraft 400m distance with a closing speed of 3-800 km/h whilst riding in the back of an aircraft that is being thrown all over the sky by a pilot desperate to stay out of the line of fire... I sure as hell wouldn't hit anything but fresh air, but it is amazing how well the AI gunners keep track of you and adjust almost instantly to the movements of their aircraft. That's over and above not displaying any fear when their compartments are hit.

I still am inclined to think that the AI doesn't cheat rather it is too artificial and unrealistic.

Bring on BoB:SoW which hopefully wont have such uber planes, dodgy AI, some rather stupid - criminally so - mistakes and an aircraft set that is compact and highly refined instead of the dozens we have now all in various states of FM/DM distress..

Ken_Det
03-08-2007, 02:15 AM
I have found switching back, and forth from realistic gunnery has a big dif. in off line gameing AI.
I turn it on, and the planes on both sides do things that just dont seem possable.
Bullets going right through them at cloase rang, and not doing a thing really gets me http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-mad.gif
My 2 cents http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

joeap
03-08-2007, 03:09 AM
Originally posted by Adam906:

Bring on BoB:SoW which hopefully wont have such uber planes, dodgy AI, some rather stupid - criminally so - mistakes and an aircraft set that is compact and highly refined instead of the dozens we have now all in various states of FM/DM distress..


And yet another height in hyperbole has been reached on the Zoo. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/clap.gif

DKoor
03-08-2007, 04:50 AM
There are few types of posts here.
-People who complain about Ai generally
-People who complain about this V4.08 Ai saying how some other Ai was better
-Else

I'm interested in opinion of those people who say that something else was better than this. What was the best Ai (game version)?

msalama
03-08-2007, 05:38 AM
Just a minor point but still -

Cheaters or not, at least they are magnificent in handling badly-damaged AC. This virtual gentleman just got back from a mission where the flak was particularly keen:

http://koti.welho.com/msalama/ShotUpSturmo_08-03-2007.JPG

Now _you_ try and make it back home in a shot-up piece of wreck like that http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

PS. Love the game or hate it, at least we've a pretty detailed DM don't we http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

JSG72
03-08-2007, 03:49 PM
Anybody ever came across the AI knowing you have run out of ammo?

This has been going on since IL2 launch.

You've managed to smoke his engine and are jostling for the "Coup de Gras" when you have No, ammo left.

Now instead of twisting, turning, trying to get away from you. They just dance about in front of you giving you plenty of aiming opportunities. But you are spent.

Darn! those Teases.

knightflyte
03-08-2007, 04:03 PM
The rear gunner in the Sturmovik flips you the finger.