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View Full Version : Smaller japanese shipping



Tater-SW-
03-07-2007, 11:09 AM
Overall, the japaense used a remarkable amount of very small shipping to transport goods throughout the empire, particularly in "front line" areas where allied airpower made "real" shipping (ie: every single merchant ship I have seen in the ship guide) suicidal.

I'm thinking of Fox Tare, Sugar Charlie Sugar, Sugar Baker Sugar, and even Sugar Dog sized shipping. Stuff under 1000 tons. Here's a diagram from ONI of the period:

http://members.spinn.net/~merrick/Stuff/cargo_carriers.jpg

The much smaller stuff in that diagram, the wooden "sea trucks" and luggers are yet another very important class.

I'm not sure how many of these vessels were engaged by subs, but in terms of numbers, if not actual tonnage, they were far and away the most common shipping operated. Having them (in some add-on patch assuming that SH4 gets patched) would add quite a lot to an immersive feel.

I've collected a number of images, particularly of Sugar Dogs if anyone is interested.

klcarroll
03-07-2007, 01:00 PM
Warm up your deck guns!! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/icon_twisted.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/icon_twisted.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/icon_twisted.gif

(BTW: ....Nice post!)

*

wm4668
03-07-2007, 01:05 PM
Originally posted by klcarroll:
Warm up your deck guns!! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/icon_twisted.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/icon_twisted.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/icon_twisted.gif

(BTW: ....Nice post!)

*

Yea, but if weather is modelled as per SHIII you'll spend 4 weeks in a hurricane with heavy fog without being able to use the Deck Guns - so those 6"ers on the Narwhals might not see too much action. Lovely thought though...

Tater-SW-
03-07-2007, 01:33 PM
Here's some infor on "Fox Tare Dog" coasters.

http://members.spinn.net/~merrick/Stuff/FTD.jpg

tater

banzai_billy
03-07-2007, 04:17 PM
Originally posted by wm4668:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by klcarroll:
Warm up your deck guns!! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/icon_twisted.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/icon_twisted.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/icon_twisted.gif

(BTW: ....Nice post!)

*

Yea, but if weather is modelled as per SHIII you'll spend 4 weeks in a hurricane with heavy fog without being able to use the Deck Guns - so those 6"ers on the Narwhals might not see too much action. Lovely thought though... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Rig for ram!

NeoDeo1955
03-07-2007, 05:10 PM
Originally posted by banzai_billy:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by wm4668:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by klcarroll:
Warm up your deck guns!! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/icon_twisted.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/icon_twisted.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/icon_twisted.gif

(BTW: ....Nice post!)

*

Yea, but if weather is modelled as per SHIII you'll spend 4 weeks in a hurricane with heavy fog without being able to use the Deck Guns - so those 6"ers on the Narwhals might not see too much action. Lovely thought though... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Rig for ram! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yikes!

I want a transfer!

blastomatic1759
03-07-2007, 05:58 PM
im going to have to torpedo that Lugger. i know its probably wasting a fish , and i still find myself doing that with trawlers sometimes , just to watch them fly out of the water.

RedTerex
03-07-2007, 07:09 PM
Nice post Tater, with some good images of the various ships and we might even see some of these in SH4.

vietvettwo
03-08-2007, 06:44 AM
According to the history books, in the late stages of the war in the Pacific targets were so few and far between US subs were sinking sampans and fishing boats. Right now, in SH3 while I know that sinking a tug or fishing trawler doesn't do much for my score, it's still fun to chew them up with the AA battery providing you can man the deck guns.

klcarroll
03-08-2007, 07:06 AM
Yea, but if weather is modelled as per SHIII you'll spend 4 weeks in a hurricane with heavy fog without being able to use the Deck Guns - so those 6"ers on the Narwhals might not see too much action. Lovely thought though...

Well, ........I certainly hope the Devs were a bit more reasonable about weather and gun usage in Sh4.

I always thought that it was ridiculous that in SH3, we were told that the weather was too heavy for gun usage, ....but we were allowed to transfer torpedoes from external storage under the same conditions! (I will freely admit to "patching" that problem in the CFG files!)

The SH3 approach also doesn't allow for "emergency motivation"! In real life, if your TypeVII had just been forced to the surface by a depth charge attack launched by a "Flower" or "Armed Trawler", you just KNOW that somebody would be trying to man the 20mm on the "Wintergarden": .....Regardless of the number of times he gets treated to a view of nothing but "green water"!

A realistic approach would be to have a graduated scale: ....One that would allow for conditions that might preclude use of the deck gun, but would still allow weapons mounted higher up on the conning tower to be used.

*

NIMITZ1967
09-28-2007, 05:23 AM
A.lway been intrigued by the fact that, in the recognition manual, Sampans and Junks are wonderfully listed as Imperial Japanese Navy vessels.....If you look closely at the illustrations, most are shown sporting radio aierials. Ive always been suspicious in this gam of this very fact, and tend to avoid visual contact with smaller units unless i wish to destroy them. I still feel that the best way to handle these small wooden craft is to physically run them down in the Sub itself. Ill not waste my precious DG rounds for love nor money.......and, i suspect that in any merchant action, ones first priority should be to end the action as quickley as possible, to prevent radio equiped targets from using the thing to call for help. It MAY even be helpful to bring down the funnel of ships attacked as a first shot, so as to minmize the chance of outside intervention, or investigation by Aircraft....Ive had to fight off aircraft whilst attacking merchants.....(late in the day this annoys me greatly....Most night qualified Japanese pilots were in their Fleet Air Arm. They tried a night attack from a carrier at Coral Sea, and it was such a fiasco that it was not attempted as a general rule again.......is this a programme anomoly?....i hope those same aircraft nin the game also have to land at night, something that every other Pacific simulation Ive ever seen does NOT encourage).Most systems limit night operstions to purpose built aircraft with pilots specifically trained for night, and shut away in dark rooms by day in an effort to improve their night vision.....yes, this post looks innocent....but if we wanted to expand on the variuos implications that these light craft have for the game....hmmmmm...thought provoking!!!

lane2512
09-28-2007, 07:49 AM
Tater...

The more variety/realism the better. If you go through the rddesigns site HERE (http://www.rddesigns.com/ww2/ww2sinkings.html) (the sinkings by individual boat) show many >1k ton sinkings. Nautilus has 8.

I'd love to see more variety.

Tater-SW-
09-28-2007, 10:06 AM
Nimitz1967,

in the stock game, all the fishing boats and sampans have radar for some inexplicable reason. Many have the same radar sported by Bismark in SH3. Others actually have japanese radars.

Lane,

you WILL see more variety, the limiting time factor is literally waiting on S3D to do 3d import/exports. All the pretty models, and no way to test them... yet.

Mwhaahahahahah.

Ahem.

tater

krazyfrenchman
09-28-2007, 10:23 AM
Originally posted by Tater-SW-:
in the stock game, all the fishing boats and sampans have radar for some inexplicable reason. Many have the same radar sported by Bismark in SH3. Others actually have japanese radars. I'll have to add this to the list in the Complementary Bug Report thread.

Tater-SW-
09-28-2007, 10:36 AM
I fixed it already, it's just text files. Total waste of dev time, unless they want to use mine (which they are welcome to).

Thread:
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=120873

Mod link:
http://mpgtext.net/subshare/544IJN%20Type13%20%20radar%20fix%202.0.rar

Yugumo DD mod link (adds a new DD, Yugumo, which is just an Asashio with radar at an earlier date (Yugumo was visually nearly identical to Asashio).:
http://mpgtext.net/subshare/793Jap%20DD%20Yugumo.rar

All of the above is included in TM already, BTW.


tater

NIMITZ1967
09-28-2007, 10:47 AM
Esteemed Dudes

Whilst on the subject of RADAR, id like to provide the Mods with a little background.....The IJNs attitude toward technical apparatus was and has been refered to in the past as "indifferent" and the equipment itself described as "poorly maintained". Their early warning system for their ships often came down to lookouts using the "MkI Eyeball" with some binocular assistance. This was part of the overall regime that emphasised "traditional roles" in the fighting, with tasking that had direct links to the IJNs glory days facing the Russians at Tsushima. American serviceman, partricularly Naval personnel and most particularly SUBMARINE CREWS were very "gadget oriented", as a lot of American boys used to be. They had exactly the opposite view, seeing their time amongst the Bangs! as something that was between all these "other ******* things that we have to do"....even the SEABEEs the Navys fighting construction corp, refered to the Pacific Campaign as "One godforsaken island after another". So you can see that the personnel who ended up as contestants in this awful contest had entirly differing modus operendi to achieve a roughly equal result when all was said and done. Japanese Admirals, for all their progressive ideas, were stll "big ship men" and scoffed at "up-starts" like Yammamoto for suggesting that their precious BBs were "of no more use in Moder warfare than a Samurai sword". The U.S. NAvy had commanders like Admiral King (CINCPAC) who were convinced that their service could win the war entirely on its own. These top level attitudes filtered down, through the senoir and junior offices and into the gossip of the enlisted personnel. Kings Anglo-phobia filtered back along way into the tentacles of the Pacific conflict, affecting operational co-operation in many ways that we will never be able to pin point. For the Sailors of the IJN, it meant that doctrinally, they were ahead in some areas, but woefully inadequate in others. Their general lack of interest in radar came back to bight, with the allies introducing Centimetric Radar that spotted surface targets with little or no "background clutter". The IJN simply lost the race in this department through bureaucratic indifferance and the sheer distance to recieve technical assistance from their allies, who could only afford to spare so much. After The Marianas Turkey shoot, morale in the IJN sank mto an all time low.....After Leyte, many personnel knew what the civilian populatrion could only guess at....that it was going to be all over very soon.

Tater-SW-
09-28-2007, 10:54 AM
BTW, that mod above corrects all the radars to proper dates, doesn;t just axe radar from fishing boats.

The reason the mod is the "type 13 radar" fix is that the type 13 is broken in SH4. It's an air search radar, but it has the same failing the pre-1.3 SH3 SD radar had, it detects surface units. So IJN ships with air search sets were detecting your sub, even your scope. I solved the issue by deleting the radar entirely. It's not like it matters, their visual sensors will detect planes, and there is no tactical ability to maneuver based on long range aircraft detection, so even having air search radar on AI ships is pointless.

I then made sure all the ships got the type 21 or type 22 on realistic dates.

In general, the escorts will have no radar til 1943 or so, but many of the larger ships will have radar much earlier than the stock game. So attacking a TF still probably means some limited radar ability for the TF.

tater

krazyfrenchman
09-28-2007, 06:15 PM
From the research I posted on the subject, here is the link ==> http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/6421019045/m/1...151005585#1151005585 (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/6421019045/m/1151005585?r=1151005585#1151005585), SD radar could typically detect a destroyer at 5nm. I do not know if heavier warships had jamming capabilities, but I guess it would detect other warships, no matter their size, nonetheless.

However, a 5nm distance is somewhat dangerous, yet it is very useful to know SD radar could do this. In SH4, I would not know however...