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gkll
02-20-2005, 11:56 PM
I've been learning to shoot with the 37 in the p39, and in practice (linked in a small network) you seem to be able to make the most spectacular hits (enormous fireball, debris)and the bandit just carries on, sometimes a little smoke. Or you hit a wing with (again) a huge explosion, and nadda. Look at the replay and no damage to the target plane.

Whats up? To me it seems the key is that in the replay and in game you get this enormous debris cloud and explosion yet no damage to wing or fuselage. So it seems a glitch and not just non-exploding shells.

I looked but couldn't find any info on the 37 ammo loadout - anyone have this handy? Whats the probability of a 37 shell hitting a plane and harmlessly passing through?

Foxtrot-Hotel
02-21-2005, 04:06 AM
Now that I think about it some more, you're right...I had experianced that sometimes too...
mostly on fighters...

Vipez-
02-21-2005, 05:25 AM
P39's M4 cannon belongs to category "crippled" in perfomance together with german mg151/20.. Noticed the same thing, sometimes you need as many as 4-5 hits to down a fighter with M-4 cannon..

But then again, if you expect M4 to be as efficient as soviet NS-37 or Kingcobras much improved 37 mm M10 cannon your wrong http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

edit: one thing i dislike about M4 in game, is its incredible ability to destroy heavy german cats.. So easy to knock out panzerIV and panthers with this weapon http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

VW-IceFire
02-21-2005, 11:44 AM
I've noticed this on all "single hit/kill" weapons.

The MK108, the M4, the NS-37, and so on.

Sometimes, you'll get a hit on the target, usually a wing shot, and no damage is done. I think this is normal lag and its a reality we must face....it surely happens to all guns but we never notice because there are hundreds of bullets involved per shot.

The NS-37 and MK108 win out more because they are also relatively good at rapid firing (but with high recoil). So burst shooting is important.

For the P-39, thats not really an option.

Choctaw111
02-21-2005, 11:54 AM
I have noticed this also. It is kind of dissapoiting to get a direct hit and see that aircraft just keep on flying like nothing ever happened. I can see this happening as a freak occurance but I have seen this many times. At 460 meters the 752 gram AP round could penetrate 20mm of armor. The magazine capacity for the M4 was 30 rounds, however a later developement of this cannon was the M10 and it's feed mechanism was modified to a disintigrating belt that allowed the ammo to be increased to 58 rounds. As far as the ammo loadout is I'm sure that they were all AP rounds. I have the Flying Guns of WW2 but not in front of me at the moment. When I look it up I will post my findings here.

HayateAce
02-21-2005, 02:51 PM
Any fighter glanced by the 37mm would be knocked sideways and possibly unflyable. Any fighter suffering a direct hit, would simply be history. This 37mm problem has been in place since day one, and it's not likely to change now.


http://www.warbirdregistry.org/p39-p63registry/images/p39gun.jpg

Enofinu
02-21-2005, 03:52 PM
remember that MK108 is more effective with Mine ammo than M4. and, there been case in war when 109 was hit with M4 in tail fuselage, it didnt cut the tail, it was still intact, but in landing when speed decreaced to level that elevators and wings didnt carry plane enought, tail collapsed. and that damage with less HE stuff what is in MK108 round, if i correctly remember, its about the same HE amount as in Mg151/20 mine round.

Vector14
02-21-2005, 04:02 PM
well i'm glad to read this
so i am not crazy
often i found this flying 37mm online
offline the 37mm works fine http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

HayateAce
02-21-2005, 04:42 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Enofinu:
remember that MK108 is more effective with Mine ammo than M4. and, there been case in war when 109 was hit with M4 in tail fuselage, it didnt cut the tail, it was still intact, but in landing when speed decreaced to level that elevators and wings didnt carry plane enought, tail collapsed. and that damage with less HE stuff what is in MK108 round, if i correctly remember, its about the same HE amount as in Mg151/20 mine round. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Keep on believing lies. BTW, this thread is about 37mm not the "gee it won the war laser108".

Frequent_Flyer
02-21-2005, 04:58 PM
I beleive the ammo. load out that is in this sim for the 37mm is all HE no AP because no AP ammo. was ever sent to the Russians with the lend lease P-39's. That being the case the projectile I beleive should detonate on contact.However when you fire it into the fusalage of the Betty, nothing but a puff of smoke is all you get for your trouble.

VW-IceFire
02-21-2005, 05:45 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by HayateAce:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Enofinu:
remember that MK108 is more effective with Mine ammo than M4. and, there been case in war when 109 was hit with M4 in tail fuselage, it didnt cut the tail, it was still intact, but in landing when speed decreaced to level that elevators and wings didnt carry plane enought, tail collapsed. and that damage with less HE stuff what is in MK108 round, if i correctly remember, its about the same HE amount as in Mg151/20 mine round. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Keep on believing lies. BTW, this thread is about 37mm not the "gee it won the war laser108". <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Just dripping with details eh? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

It is true though, this problem has been in since day one and no it probably won't change.

Lazy312
02-21-2005, 05:56 PM
Flying Cobra offline I need 1 hit in 80% of times, 2 hits in 20%. Never needed more than two hits.

Online that may be another story..

gkll
02-21-2005, 10:55 PM
Since day one? That really is too bad. I recently took a liking to the Q10 however I maybe have to start thinking of it as a twin 50 machine, with the possibility of a cannon shot (but not to be counted on).

Online lag is a possibility but then why the huge fireball and debris field? I was playing as I said on a network with some friends but have noted it online as well.

If they are HE rounds as posted they should be absolutely deadly against fighters, I had guessed this due to the enormous explosions and as a consequence I was looking for some tactical moves to get point blank shots in the midst of your typical furball, however maybe I'll just slip back into one of my other rides, I'm far too average to be messing about with specialty birds that don't work right...

S!

Agamemnon22
02-22-2005, 09:27 AM
I'm pretty sure this is a lag or otherwise network issue, not the gun itself, because offline nothing survives a 37mm hit.

VW-IceFire
02-22-2005, 09:36 AM
It doesn't mean the 37mm isn't still effective.

A couple nights ago on UK-Dedicated...Defbond and a couple of other pilots were flying P-63Cs in the new Operation Autumn Storm mission thats been setup. I was flying a Ki-61 and later a Ki-84 against their 63s...one hit kills for them all the time http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

I was dead alot http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

It still works.

Vipez-
02-22-2005, 10:38 AM
P-63 has M-10 cannon it was much MUCH more effective than P39's M4 cannon.. it had much greater muzzle velocity, and bigger shell.. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

And i've read same story as Eno descriped.. russians called P39s as lawnmovers against ground targets.. but in truth most Kills with the P39 were archieved with machine guns, not with the M4 cannon http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Think i flew the same night Icefire, indeed Kingcobra needs one shot one kill no matter what plane your shooting http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif just like Russian NS-37.. P39's M4 is bit weaker, but perhaps there is truth in this..

EmbarkChief
02-22-2005, 10:43 AM
I haven't tested it in a long time but last I checked the loadout was AP/HE 1 for 1. Easy to test, park in front of a hill and fire off a round. One will give you a nice explosion sound and the next will have no impact sound at all=AP.

VW-IceFire
02-22-2005, 04:48 PM
Well I went and did some testing online. I need to do some more.

I was flying on =FA=Waxwings server. Only 37mm variant available was the P-63C so I took that. Of the 10 or so times that I managed to connect with my target, one of those times was a dud. The I-185 I hit shrugged it off with seemingly no damage.

The second hit on the other hand was entirely fatal.

gkll
02-22-2005, 08:31 PM
I'll do a little testing in a more rigorous way. However it is becoming clear that it may be an online issue. Packet loss and so on. I don't get this entirely, the only time I notice is when the fireball and debris (my computer sees a hit) - could this still be packet loss?
I don't know much about networks...

VW-IceFire
02-22-2005, 09:13 PM
Absolutely that would be packetloss. The packet carrying the information regarding the hit just never got passed around properly and thus it was never recorded.

Once again, its not an issue when you're spitting several hundred bullets at the target. A stray .50cal bullet that never caused damage is not going to be noticed nor have an impact on the overall effect (the percentage error is going to be far too low). On the other hand, a single hit weapon like the 37mms are going to expose this problem. I don't see it as having a solution. I doubt its limited to just the M4 and as my test showed, it does indeed occur on the M10.

This game is stunningly resistant to problems dealing with packetloss...play some earlier flight sims and FPS games and you'll forgive anything that IL-2 is screwing up because its just so much more complex and yet still doing a better job than the predecessors.

gkll
02-22-2005, 11:02 PM
Well packet loss or whatever...

On a two person LAN with two good computers it looks like about 1 hit in 2 is ineffective, tried nice tracking shots in a steady turn shooting at reasonable deflection at 150 to 200 m. Look at the replay and direct hits on wing and tail and no damage at all, not a trace. Also minor bumps felt in the target plane from direct hits on the forward fuselage (showing damage this time) but the plane keeps flying perfectly. So whatever I guess count on needing 2 or 3 37 hits to down a fighter? The F4U we were shooting at sometimes took 4 37 hits to put it away. Nice plane but a dud gun.

So packet loss on a LAN? Anyway probably there is no answer for this version of the game engine if it has been around from the beginning - however I can't help feel a wee suspicious that the problem may be nulled hits to tone down the big guns.

Incidentally the 37 ammo loadout may be all AP - compared to a big cannon yak and just puffs of dust never explosions like 1 in 2 or 2 in 3 for the yak, maybe AP rounds are part of the problem? Earlier posters suggested the 37 maybe should be all HE in soviet usage....

gkll
02-22-2005, 11:25 PM
Oh I see listen to the rounds firing into a hill... I'll try that. We just fired a big cannon yak and got explosions most of the time never with the M4 so we assumed that was HE vs AP

If this is true (half AP rounds) then that helps account for the results shooting. An AP round might? pass more or less harmlessly through.

So now I want a full HE ammo loadout if this is the issue... surely there is documentation of soviet pilots loading up with whatever they wanted and against aircraft HE from a 37 would be the ticket?

Anyhow I'll recheck the loadout

VW-IceFire
02-23-2005, 11:06 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by gkll:
Oh I see listen to the rounds firing into a hill... I'll try that. We just fired a big cannon yak and got explosions most of the time never with the M4 so we assumed that was HE vs AP

If this is true (half AP rounds) then that helps account for the results shooting. An AP round might? pass more or less harmlessly through.

So now I want a full HE ammo loadout if this is the issue... surely there is documentation of soviet pilots loading up with whatever they wanted and against aircraft HE from a 37 would be the ticket?

Anyhow I'll recheck the loadout <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I doubt Oleg will change the belt composition at the drop of a hat. There would need to be evidence of it being used one way or another.

If indeed half are AP and half are HE then you just need to aim accordingly. The AP ones may really put the hurt on if you hit the target in the right fashion.

ECV56_Rolf
02-24-2005, 09:18 AM
Since the P-39 waas modelled into this sim it has been fitted with only one type of ammunition, and it is HE. There is no AP on the P39 canon.

This was explained before, and it has a good reason. The P-39s lend leased to Russia never received AP ammunition.

Now, the P-39s included in the PF also have no AP rounds. Even the P-63 have no AP rounds.

I don´t know in which way the USA army used to load this canon, but it is clear that in the game it has no AP.

And the guy that claims to kill tigers in game with that canon, well that is something I have yet to see!

Worst... I believe that a long time back someone complained about this canon being undermodelled because it cannot kill Tigers...

The results of a full impact being undermodelled? Don´t think so... damage models varies too much in between different airplanes. In some types it will be a one shot kill nearly allways, in some others it will be frustrating, more so with a weapon so difficult to aim, and with such a significant recoil when fired at relatively slow speeds.
Tried it a bit before posting this, bettys happen to stand a good deal of hits from this canon, other type of bombers don´t.