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XyZspineZyX
09-18-2003, 07:22 AM
Ok I know lots fly the BF-109 I've heard even Oleg likes to fly the BF-109.
So here's the dilemma I'm in. When I get online I pick whichever side has less players to help keep things balanced. Yet on Greatergreen server with full realism I find many missions I'm limited to the BF-109.
I've tried, and tried to figure this bird out. I finally figured out how to get it to climb like it should. I even managed to get it really rolling along. However when it comes to a fight it's like a sitting duck.
My last attempt I don't think I so much as hit someone while flying it.
I try to get altitude and do the BnZ and then run away. Yet here's what always happens. I dive in on them they zig and zag I miss like mad. I level out and run for it until I get clear to climb up again.
Yet I can't run because they're gaining on me like mad. So I idle back and charge the WEP for a few seconds, and then go full throttle. Hit the WEP once the engine spools up, and I start opening the gap.
Radiator closed and all I don't seem to have any major overheating problems. Finally she starts to cook so I open the radiator, and cut the WEP. Moments later tracers are zinging past me once again.
I'm left with rolling, and spinning trying to stay alive long enough to get back across my lines so I can bail.

It also seems I only get one shot of WEP. Even if I go back to idle and recharge it when I hit it a second time the motor starts dying.

So whats the trick? I can't out run them long enough, I can't climb faster than bullets for sure. I turn like a slug on a cold day crossing a salted road.

I know some people fly them successfully online. I've seen BF-109 aces. Yet if I get in anything even if it's statistically a dog compared to the BF-109 I fly 10 times better.

XyZspineZyX
09-18-2003, 07:22 AM
Ok I know lots fly the BF-109 I've heard even Oleg likes to fly the BF-109.
So here's the dilemma I'm in. When I get online I pick whichever side has less players to help keep things balanced. Yet on Greatergreen server with full realism I find many missions I'm limited to the BF-109.
I've tried, and tried to figure this bird out. I finally figured out how to get it to climb like it should. I even managed to get it really rolling along. However when it comes to a fight it's like a sitting duck.
My last attempt I don't think I so much as hit someone while flying it.
I try to get altitude and do the BnZ and then run away. Yet here's what always happens. I dive in on them they zig and zag I miss like mad. I level out and run for it until I get clear to climb up again.
Yet I can't run because they're gaining on me like mad. So I idle back and charge the WEP for a few seconds, and then go full throttle. Hit the WEP once the engine spools up, and I start opening the gap.
Radiator closed and all I don't seem to have any major overheating problems. Finally she starts to cook so I open the radiator, and cut the WEP. Moments later tracers are zinging past me once again.
I'm left with rolling, and spinning trying to stay alive long enough to get back across my lines so I can bail.

It also seems I only get one shot of WEP. Even if I go back to idle and recharge it when I hit it a second time the motor starts dying.

So whats the trick? I can't out run them long enough, I can't climb faster than bullets for sure. I turn like a slug on a cold day crossing a salted road.

I know some people fly them successfully online. I've seen BF-109 aces. Yet if I get in anything even if it's statistically a dog compared to the BF-109 I fly 10 times better.

XyZspineZyX
09-18-2003, 07:35 AM
Flighting in Bf109 is HARD. For ex. last night I (and my AI wingie) trained gunnery skills in QMB against 4 Yaks 1B.At oen mometn I put 7 20mm shells into one of the Yaks and it zoomed merrily up and out. Then I accidentally mit my wingie with ONE 20mm shell. And guess what? He was smooking like chimney and complained "Sheize, I'm hit, bailing out". Lately engaged a pair of Su2 (n rookie level mind you). Short burst from their mighty 7.62 mm Shkas and voila, oil on my windshield, REVI destroyed, flap jammed! I was laughing for awhile...
Try Fw109, much better if flown well!

P.S.: And even don't try manual prop pitch in Bf109, the DB605 overrev instantly and show is stopping....

XyZspineZyX
09-18-2003, 08:20 AM
you must work your flaps and i mean work them ,learn to feel the plane dont run fight.just choose when you fight,get high so you can do this,it will come

XyZspineZyX
09-18-2003, 08:25 AM
sounds like firstly you need more altitude as you want to be hitting 550 - 600 kmh plus at the B&Z if it is busy below.

secondly some 109's, for example the g6as, can handle longish (3 or 4 minute) periods with overheat lit before needing to cool off so do not panic the instant overheat shows

third .. the MW50 should be turned on the WHOLE time .. engage it at taxi before takeoff and leave it on .. it lasts 40 minutes or so and prevents engine damage at high boost

<center> http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0SQDLAtUWiWZ3BKw19!aryp7v3C1h1DuNwpHOOuqhlraGSyMAY KiPEOZAA1OBgsLu*Sa0UQ2my0PiFyvNkJ5K7Clsoy7yNtEvOXY nHDuPNiotpZACY2oJxw/aircraftround.jpg </center>

XyZspineZyX
09-18-2003, 08:34 AM
I don't know if this will help , but I have a couple suggestions from an admitted offliner (due to apparent incompatibility prob I freeze when I go online).

1) If you have a choice of 109s I would go with 109G6/AS or K4 which out perform 190As at slower speed and have a higher top speed (according to IL2compare utility).

2) When I go against very maneuverable and fast LA7 or Yak3 ACE the only way I dont get waxed is to try to lure him into looping down while I am under him but going into vertical. I stay close but fast and below (let it all hang out including boost and Rad closed) until just before merge I am in slight dive at over 520 kph. Then before he passes I start a moderate pull up into vertical (not too abrupt) and let that baby climb a while.
a) If he climbs too you are below him and in a good position for a little while.
b)If he dives down and then tries to loop up with you, you will end up with alot more energy and be able to outclimb him and he will be defensive for a few passes at least. The important thing is to not lose sight of him and roll where he will be and then top out at something above 220 kph (top of loop and then pull moderately until you have him in your front area without losing E or SA (this takes alittle practice and patience).

Practice this offline in QMB (against LA7 or Yak3 ACE) and it may help online.

XyZspineZyX
09-18-2003, 08:34 AM
& ease up on the stick - too much pulling will slow you down. Keep the radiators closed & throttle at 100-105% & you should be able to B&Z with advantage. My experiences with the 109 is limited to the 1940-1942 series so I´ve never worked with the WEP. Climb all the time - you can outclimb most red planes & if you do it with a "twist" - I mean turning a bit then your opponent will bleed E faster than you & you can zoom down on them again. I never use flaps with the 109 because it slows you down & I will rather go fast & get a second shot than try turning my way out.

Happy hunting.

S!

M0NS



"Blow up the outside world"

http://www.flugwerk.de/images/01k.jpg
My garage!

XyZspineZyX
09-18-2003, 09:08 AM
Looks like a complete wrong understanding of the wep system .

Engage it 1 time better on Ground then let it on . Or inflight with low rpm else you damage the engine . The MW50 kicks only in when you go over 100 % (AtA indicator may spool up higher but not worry about). Flying the BF needs much more tactical flying than vvs planes . Best alt is 3500 to 5000 m . Topspeed is not that good at low alts . Once you have seen a enemy dot (most likely near enemy flightpaths to targets). You need to setup your attack. Before you dive on it judge its alt heading and speed . And watch if more planes come in high they are really a problem for the BF. Dive in on the target from a position that is in advantage for you . Dive it to the limit with closed radiators reduce throttle a little on approach . A good and safe way to hit the plane is not directly from behind . Fly under it and approach from 30 degrees or more from enemys low 6 or high 6. When you notice plane turns hard or banks hard for unknown reason it noticed you . Ignore it than regain alt and wait for next approach watch out for incoming enemy planes. The Plane might have informed others of its situation . Try to Ident the plane as you fly closer . For example if its a La7 it has bad roll problems at high speeds that you could use against it in a dive it falls apart at 700 to 800 ias at lower alts. When you have been unseen and unheard you have his plane against the Blue Sky . Aim for the flight path ahead of the Plane(keep ball centered) and let it fly into your shoots. The first shoots are important so take great care for deflection angle and speed. And never fly out infront of the enemy plane. After shooting roll left or right pull up in climb and regain alt. Look what the enemy plane is doing if it turns after you . Does it have just a smoke trail stalls left or right. Maybe you missed it . Then use your E advantage against it. Climb roll over at top and dive again on it.Dont turn with it except its badly damaged then try to force it to turn in the direction of a damaged Wing if some. And always keep a lookout for other Planes they always appear when you dont exspect them . Thats a very safe way takes lot of patience . Sometimes its more fun to turnfight with em but not in any case adviseable.My special new friend is the p39 its has only
little weaknesses on early war servers. Its very hard to compete with it in a A4 for example the only way is to hold top speed and fly away at sea level. The BF is more competive against it but 1 uncarefull move and you have it on the tail
.

Hope some tips help.

Regards Hyperion.

XyZspineZyX
09-18-2003, 09:15 AM
I work my flaps pretty hard in fact I have then on my joystick so I can switch them through their positions pretty fast. Rather than having to look at the keyboard first.

So basically I need to keep it floored through my dive so I'm just slap shagging tail when I level out? I tend to cut throttle, and sometimes hit the brakes (flaps) to slow down behind them and get a shot. It seems they turn so fast though I can't put enough distance between them and me before they make a full circle.

I have used some stall turns to good effect, but it's never enough to give me an angle on them.

Is boost seperate from WEP? When I hit "W" for WEP it turns on MW50. I can see the boost gauge sky rocket as well. So they do they run together? Meaning I don't have or know how to seperate MW50 from the boost. So are you talking about running WEP for 40 minutes?
If so do I jst run at a reduced throttle setting? Or can I run full on like that without overheating?

I think I'm obviously doing something wrong. I do know that my engine is dying a lot when I fly the 109. Not completely but the power level dies off. I ended up taxxing back to base once because I didn't have enough power to fly. At least for awhile until I didn't have enough power to taxi, and just bailed.

I've noticed also the BF-109 turns really good at high speed. At 450 I can go half blackout and just keep pulling for a couple of rotations. I've tried that too, but I don't get much of a shot due to the speed.

I like the 109 it's one of my favorite WWII aircraft but it's frustrating.

XyZspineZyX
09-18-2003, 09:50 AM
your engine will die quickly if you hit thw "W" at high MP settings. I think the readme says to only engage MW50 at throttle setting of less than 50%, so that's what I do.

To increase survival use energy tactics as others have said rather than using flaps, slowing down, and bleeding speed. If your up against a more maneuverable aircraft you're screwed if the pilot sees you and knows what he/she is doing.

Energy is life so don't give it away so readily!

XyZspineZyX
09-18-2003, 10:05 AM
I can understand your frustration. And I also tried the BnZ tactics with the 109 wich didnt work for me and I always ended up on the defensive.
Then I began studying my opponents more closely and discovered that many allied planes are almost as fast as the 109 and almost climb as good too.Another thing is that allied guns are very acurate at long distance (machine guns ) and after trying allied planes I noticed i could hit and at least damage a 109 quite easily even if I coldnt catch it speeding away.( U cant outfly bullets)

So for the BnZ tactics to work with the 109u really must have a great speed advantage and know how to maneuver well close to stallspeed.
And one good way to know if ur opponent is an ace is that if he sees u comming down he may initially dive to get his speed up to get a snap shot at u when u pass. (= u maybe will consider aborting your attack and stay at safe altitude?)

Experienced allied pilots know they can avoid a 109 that is diving at them with a sharp turn bcause the 109 cant turn that sharp at the high speed........so why not try to reduce speed fast by kicking rudder and deploy flaps and cut throttle ...this will increse your turning radius and if u are an average shot u might leave the bandit hanging in his chute wondering what happened.( or not).

Online is a great place to try and experiment (I often do)bcause the opponents "can" make mistakes.

109 even has quite good turning characteristics at slow speed and full or medium flaps ( no1 expects a 109g starting a dogfight at slow speed /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif )

A finnish ace Ky¶sti Karhila used to dog fight in his 109 with GUNPODS at speeds as low as 250 km/h.

Why dont u read about it your self.

http://www.virtualpilots.fi/en/hist/WW2History-KyostiKarhilaInterview.html

Its almost at the bottom at "Daily life of an messerschmitt pilot"



I think a good advice for the one who wants to master the 109 ( or any plane) is to practice to fly near stallspeed and speed up as qickly as possible and the other way around = from high speed learn to drop to stallspeed.
( a stall at low altitude in slow speed in a 109 is bad and for a p39 its deadly ).Another thing absolutely required of a 109 pilot is good deflection shooting.( mostly u have only one pass)

So ...on your way to Acedom...have fun. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

XyZspineZyX
09-18-2003, 10:28 AM
I just got done reading some tactics online, and I can say I've been doing the BnZ all wrong. I've also been bleeding energy when I shouldn't have been.
Tomorrow night once I'm home I'm going to get online and see if I can't implement some of them.

The biggest thing is I think in trying to get a shot I've been letting my opponent dictate the fight. If I have altitude I should be able to BnZ and he really only has a few choices. None are in his favor if I don't choose to play ball.

Like I read where someone posted before the 109 is a thinking mans aircraft. I guess I was just thinking all wrong.

XyZspineZyX
09-18-2003, 10:39 AM
Hopperfly22 wrote:
- I just got done reading some tactics online, and I
- can say I've been doing the BnZ all wrong. I've
- also been bleeding energy when I shouldn't have
- been.
- Tomorrow night once I'm home I'm going to get online
- and see if I can't implement some of them.
-
- The biggest thing is I think in trying to get a shot
- I've been letting my opponent dictate the fight. If
- I have altitude I should be able to BnZ and he
- really only has a few choices. None are in his
- favor if I don't choose to play ball.
-
- Like I read where someone posted before the 109 is a
- thinking mans aircraft. I guess I was just thinking
- all wrong.
-


Keep rad shut for dive and zoom climb. You will retain energy much better that way. Find a buddy and do 2 v 2 B&Z while one is enganging the other climbs and visa versa. this will keep the enemy defensive and at a disadvantage. Often an inexperienced pilot with keep trying to climb after you even when he hasn't the energy. when he stalls you wing man can drop on him. IMHO the 109 suits teams tactics much better.




<center><img src= "http://homepage.ntlworld.com/n.bulger/Emil_Bug.jpg">

AKA JG5_Emil

"I wish we all had the courage to confine our defence to three simple words....LICK MY A*S!" Herman Goering

XyZspineZyX
09-18-2003, 10:43 AM
Yeah most of my air to air kills have been against 109's, and the only 109's who have shot me down have been when I was chasing their wingmen.

Normally when side balane allows because I like to be fair and even things out I try to fly on the allied side. Usually in a P-40.

XyZspineZyX
09-18-2003, 10:46 AM
Exactly....a typical drag and bag where the victem gets "Target fixation". Allthough many people like DF servers they aren't a good place to learn team tactics unless a few of you have TS or Rogerwilco etc.

I can't emphasis how much better I became and how much more enjoyable IL2 and FB became after I joined a squad


<center><img src= "http://homepage.ntlworld.com/n.bulger/Emil_Bug.jpg">

AKA JG5_Emil

"I wish we all had the courage to confine our defence to three simple words....LICK MY A*S!" Herman Goering

XyZspineZyX
09-18-2003, 11:24 AM
From what I was reading the purpose of the BnZ is not to actually shoot them on your way down, and then climb back up. That actually is disengaging you from them.
It's more of a rapid closure and depending on their reaction will either leave them lagging behind you or you'll be on their 6 with an energy advantage.

Example you Boom down on them and they react. A hard turn is their worst option. Trying to pull over into an immelman is their next most horrible option. Their best option is to turn into your direction dive under you and extend.
If they take the third route you simply zoom back up and try again.
But either of the other two you boom down, and then pull up into a vertical climb. This way you retain energy and bleed your speed.
At the top you either pull over or do a hammerhead turn while throttling back, and dropping full flaps, and gear as air brakes.
Now your coming straight back down at manuevering speed. At this point if they haven't extended there's nothing they can do but hope you miss. As you'll have a shot no matter what, and end up on their 6. Worst case for you is they are stalling and are coming head on at you. Which means they can manuever little, and you still have the better shot.
Plus if they don't extend they must bleed energy to avoid you in which case you have the E advantage. You still have to be a good shot though, and be able to stay on their 6.

Most aircraft other than a couple of really tight turning ones barely out turn the aircraft. However thats only when you both at your prime manuevering or cornering speed. So if your at your cornering speed, and they're not. You can stay on their 6.

If you let them get behind you it's a whole different ball game though.

XyZspineZyX
09-18-2003, 11:27 AM
PM me your email address if you like and I will make a track of good B&Z and send it to you /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif


<center><img src= "http://homepage.ntlworld.com/n.bulger/Emil_Bug.jpg">

AKA JG5_Emil

"I wish we all had the courage to confine our defence to three simple words....LICK MY A*S!" Herman Goering

XyZspineZyX
09-18-2003, 05:13 PM
I use to fly the g10 14 and g6 alot, but now if i fly a 109 it the g2 or k4 only if i have the choice.

I usually get as much alt as i can BnZ hit my combat flaps when i get a good angle of attack and you can stay with a stick yanking plane with combat flaps


http://mysite.verizon.net/vze4jz7i/ls.gif

Good dogfighters bring ammo home, Great ones don't. (c) Leadspitter

XyZspineZyX
09-18-2003, 05:30 PM
First of all after you dive for the B&Z attack you should climb right away.... not level out and run & climb but straight climb up fast.....

second

never ever inable the wep if your throttle is over 99% if you do it will fry the engine straight away.....

third the 109 used to be a bad arse killin machien but since the latest patch the late war models took a huge hit in overall preformance IMO...

The early war 109s are much better @ T&B I use the G2 or the e7z to destroy the enemy try them you can B&Z or T&B with these ac Good luck

<center> http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/ah_109_1063229517.jpg </center>

XyZspineZyX
09-18-2003, 08:20 PM
the bf109 is agreat plane ,helps been in big maps as this gives you room to move in ,it will help with flying athere planes too,so put the work in , http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

XyZspineZyX
09-18-2003, 10:21 PM
The 109 late models are great at BnZ, still my fav, but if you don't have the hieght.... and its an La7 ur facing, same alt... well not to much you can do but force an overshoot then give chase for a second to get a burst off if lucky.

Sure the 109 is good now at BnZ, but before it was better. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

Heck before it was better and held its own with equal e state as other planes... not just BnZ.

<a>http://www.talonsoft.com/images/hiddenanddangerous/hiddenanddangerous-eyes.jpg</a>

XyZspineZyX
09-19-2003, 03:05 AM
I don't know why but it seems all of a sudden no matter what I fly I'm fodder. I've gotta go back to offline for awhile. Online is just making me learn lots of bad habits. Plus some funny stuff like I was flying VVS earlier on full real.
I was getting slap out turned by BF-109's. Then later when I switched over the the BF-109 I outturned a Buffalo. Didn't get a good shot though before I overshot.

Seems online I can't line up the BnZ for nothing. I have a huge problem spotting aircraft. When I BnZ and everything is just right it's a friendly. Then as I'm cruising along T 4000+ feet enemy's magically appear behind me and blow me out of the sky.
I'm almost constantly scanning as much as I can as well as doing gentle turns to see behind me. As soon as I relax for a moment someone pops up behind me and boom!

To put it shot between a Lagg-5, and a P-38 neither would out turn a BF-109. They were following me round and round and round.

Tonight was a horrible online experience to say the least. I've never not gotten at least 1 kill. My total accomplishments tonight involved putting a few rounds into a Buffalo.

XyZspineZyX
09-19-2003, 03:23 AM
Buck up, chap! Remember, most pilots had their wingmen to help them spot bandits, so they were not doing all the watching themselves. I think your best bet may be to join an online squadron, perhaps?

XyZspineZyX
09-19-2003, 05:29 AM
Which 109 varient were you in, the F4, an earlier one, cause these ones can turn with the best of em, the later ones though I am afraid can't keep up with some of the others.... they are more focused on BnZ and going fast and good climb... well... they are supposed to be focused on that.

<a>http://www.talonsoft.com/images/hiddenanddangerous/hiddenanddangerous-eyes.jpg</a>

XyZspineZyX
09-19-2003, 06:11 AM
even with the 109k4 la7s and yaks will outclimb a k4 to 5500m and above 6000 the k4 will outrun it but not by much


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Good dogfighters bring ammo home, Great ones don't. (c) Leadspitter

XyZspineZyX
09-19-2003, 06:26 AM
Well I dunno what type of 109 it was hanging with my Lagg-5 and P-39. When I switch sides on the next map I started in a F-2 and then switched to the F-4 which were my only choices.

Also the Buffalo's and Hurri's I was up against were using a rather gamey tactic against the 109's. You would BnZ one, and then when you zoom climb they would simply pull up behind you into a stall, and spray with their multiple MG's. 9 times out of 10 they'll hit you and something always goes wrong. I've gotten really good at limping 109's back to base. Even with no elevator, and ailerons, and a engine smoking like a freight train. I had to use nothing but throttle control, flaps, and rudder to turn.

Maybe the spotting problem is video related. I'm running 11??x8?? it's a standard setting so I imagine you knw what I'm talking about. I can't go any higher due to my LCD monitor though. Also when I've got lots of altitude I can't see them if they're down low. Maybe it's a view distance thing.

Then it seems like my flying has seriously deteriorated or something. Because I crashed into the ground twice on a map where we were supposed to be straffing ships loaded with cargo.

Even before that though I had the people sneaking up behind me problem. Then there's the I'm at 5,00 feet, and everyone else it at 500 feet. I dunno what it is maybe it was just a bad night for me.
Still no kills not even making someone smoke when normally even in an I-16 I can get a couple of kills.

Tomorrow I'm going to practice my BnZ offline a bunch more, and try tweaking my settings. Also the 109 has a horrible cockpit view, and in a low wing plane it makes spotting aircraft coming up below you horrible. It's like constant knife edging to try to spot a target.