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View Full Version : Here is what Oleg should do



FlakMagnent
01-04-2005, 04:50 AM
If Oleg would release an SDK or modding tools we could simply add the aircraft that we want in the game. I would like to see an addon or a mod that let me be a AA Gunner on a ship in pearl harbor while the japs attack. We could even put in the planes that Oleg cant because of copyright bull squat. What do the rest of you think??

Tailspin2
01-04-2005, 05:30 AM
Extremely bad idea. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif I like the way Oleg does it now. One specific set of standards for aircraft design that everyone adheres too. It puts everyone on the same playing field. Anyone can do their own skins if they want to change the outside appearance of their aircraft.

Nothing like what is done with the MS Series where everyone does whatever they want and you never know what flight model you are going to fly when you go on a server. To get good at any aircraft, you need to know their characteristics, it takes time. While the IL-2 models change from patch to patch to try to approach a realistic flight, everyone is on the same level playing field with the change. Everyone has to relearn the new changes.

It's a shame about the copyright stuff but I still prefer the way Oleg does the aircraft.

ElAurens
01-04-2005, 05:35 AM
This would only lead to some CFS type of farce concerning FMs.

A very bad idea.

Also, the current system ensures a common standard of quality for the aircraft models.

No 20 gun F4Us here, thank you.

Athosd
01-04-2005, 06:00 AM
Hmmmm....I reckon there's something hiding under this bridge - best take the long way round today.

Shrike_UK
01-04-2005, 06:01 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by FlakMagnent:
If Oleg would release an SDK or modding tools we could simply add the aircraft
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

There are ways that aircraft can be added to the sim, via Olegs permission only, and he is kind enough to give instructions for budding 3D modellers out there of what his requirements are to add the a/c into the sim.
And who would do the FM for these a/c in the scenario you suggested? you can imagine it now, lots of youngsters making UFO's that go 5000 mph.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by FlakMagnent:
Oleg cant because of copyright bull squat.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think Oleg would be upset with your suggestion, it goes against the whole ethos of this sim. Copyright protects the developers from people who want control over something they dont own because they didnt have the intellect to build it themselves. Think about it, a developer develops something with its future in mind, a lot of hard work goes into it, you wouldnt want somebody coming in making a mess of it, especially if it earns you the money for the food on your dinner table.

Shrike.

clint-ruin
01-04-2005, 06:41 AM
The trouble is that pretty much the only responses you are going to get to this question are from people who have absolutely no idea how mods are handled in any game made since about 1996 or so. From the way it is put across here - UT2004 is nothing but people bringing in weapons from one mod into another, cheating to give themselves unlimited ammo when the server specifys otherwise, etc. You'd almost be led to think that there isn't already the capability to display, with CRCs if need be, exactly which settings and which mods a given server is running before joining up.

Welcome to the world of flight sims, where people don't need that fancy learnin' stuff.

Dunkelgrun
01-04-2005, 07:06 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by FlakMagnent:
If Oleg would release an SDK or modding tools we could simply add the aircraft that we want in the game. I would like to see an addon or a mod that let me be a AA Gunner on a ship in pearl harbor while the japs attack. We could even put in the planes that Oleg cant because of copyright bull squat. What do the rest of you think?? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


No. The day that happens is the day that IL-2 dies.

John_Stag
01-04-2005, 09:20 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by FlakMagnent:
If Oleg would release an SDK or modding tools we could simply add the aircraft that we want in the game. I would like to see an addon or a mod that let me be a AA Gunner on a ship in pearl harbor while the japs attack. We could even put in the planes that Oleg cant because of copyright bull squat. What do the rest of you think?? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Depends how badly you want to engage a Pzl P.11 with the performance of a Spitfire Mk.IV, and the weapons and armour of the HMS King Geroge V online.

LEXX_Luthor
01-04-2005, 10:15 AM
Best way is to add 3rd Partie airplanes through Oleg.

Would be nice to man anti~aircraft guns, kinda boring though if you think of it. Oleg said we will be able to operate more than just aircraft in BoB. mmm

Blackdog5555
01-04-2005, 11:36 AM
A better terrain and building SDK would be very very, nice. People have *****ed about this ad-nausium so i wont go into it. Opinions differ but i think accurate model of battlefield terrain is very important. A brown island with a few trees and an airfield doesnt do it for me. In the FMB, u can add objects such as trees or buildings etc etc. But a full terrain building SDK including elevation, forest, beaches, water color, islands, coastline, etc. etc is what PF needs. For those of you who fly FS2004, fly around Hawaii or New Guinei to see what i mean. The terrain modeling in PF is not just dated, it stinks. I would be happy to build my own maps and terrain.

Latico
01-04-2005, 05:54 PM
I'; give you a anoter example of what happens when the code is open for public modifications.

At some point somebody cam out with a toolkit that allowed us to make modified "libs" library's for Janes Fighters Anthology. This worked out fine since everyone that was going to fly in a game had to have the same lib installed or the game would bust. Some people were creating more updated models of the various aircraft that were not included in the game. e.g. FA included 3 models of the F4 Phantom, -B, -G, and -J. With the toolkit (FATK) additional realworld models were created. This was all well and good, until one day, recently, one of our squadmates in the 369thTFW discovered that it was possible to ,od a weapon of a plane in such a way that it was not detected as a Lib. We had always suspected that a few were running some kind of cheat due to the fact that some pilots seem to have better firepower than their planes should have had. This discovery of a
stealth" mod really messed it up for JFA community.

I say leave the code closed tighter than a drum. And let Oleg manage quality control of HIS product.

clint-ruin
01-04-2005, 06:17 PM
Yup. That's exactly what tends to happen when there is no longer any support from the developer and no access to source to re-work the traffic checking or validate the files people are using. This is not an SDK - it is a hack. This is what happens to code when it relies on a combination of exclusivity and obscurity to protect itself and one of those elements falls over - development studio dies, and the code is left out there, static and unchanging, for people to explore what makes it tick.

And because people didn't have sufficient access to the source to rework the netcode you're left with that kind of horrible situation where people can do enough to the game to damage it, but not enough to fix it afterwards. And no developer support from the original team to close those holes up after they're discovered. An SDK tends to bottle up hostile elements - if people are able to achieve what they want with the dev tools, there is very little reason for them to explore exploiting the code itself to enable them to mod the game.

How do you suppose that people continue to play Doom, Quakeworld and Quake2 at a tournament level given that the games have had userdefinable content and quakec code since release, and has had source out in the open for years now? Magic? How about ecommerce, given that most often the code for everything from the web server to the encryption protocol to a million other things can be looked over by whoever wants to do so?

Hopper_35thCAG
01-04-2005, 06:33 PM
I'm more than content to have whatever planes Oleg includes/releases. Sure, it would be fun to create a custom plane, but I've had enough of the wildly unrealistic mods people have made throughout the MS CFS series. I purchased PF for the simple reason that aircraft couldn't be tampered with. The first multiplayer session I hosted I saw a message flash onto the screen, "so and so was kicked for cheating" (or something similar my memory is bad). This made me smile. The lack of morons that fly UFOs leaves more time to enjoy the game. Please, please keep the code locked up.

clint-ruin
01-04-2005, 07:23 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Hopper_35thCAG:
The first multiplayer session I hosted I saw a message flash onto the screen, "so and so was kicked for cheating" (or something similar my memory is bad). This made me smile. The lack of morons that fly UFOs leaves more time to enjoy the game. Please, please keep the code locked up. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think you should look into what that message actually refers to :>

huggy87
01-04-2005, 07:39 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif I think you meant flakm-a-g-n-e-t.

FlakMagnent
01-04-2005, 07:41 PM
I guess I kinda asked for those. What I was talking about(MODDING) was more or less for the single player campaings. Im not talking about Uber Planes guys. All Im talking about is getting some of the planes that were left out in the game. Besides you would have to download the planes and if you simply didnt want it you wouldnt download it. Oleg could make it to where he would have to approve the MODS himself before it could be made availible. There are many ways this could work out if people would just open their minds. I dont want a CFS like sim either. I just want the planes not included with the game. I have a Janes Book of WW2 Fighters. This is an older book that has ALL the specifications on most of the warbirds used in WW2 by all Countries. I would just like to be able to have a choice on some of the planes I would like to fly.

FlakMagnent
01-04-2005, 07:43 PM
Oh and Huggy, I know how to spell. That name was already taken by someone else. Again people need to open their minds LOL!! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/mockface.gif

AFSG_Mshine
01-04-2005, 07:46 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I think you should look into what that message actually refers to :> <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Maybe you should look into designing your own flight sim with your bright ideas! I flew CFS1 & CFS2 long enough to know what happens when you give people free reign.

I've also played othe rgames like MOHAA & COD with all of the cheats and server mods. All it leads to is cheating and servers that begin to run games like ****.

I take comfort in knowing that there is NOBODY out there fooling around with these FMs. That when when I go online and get the **** kicked out of me, I know the other person was a better pilot, not a better cheater, or a better programmer.. I rest easy not having to wonder if someone has found a loop hole.

You assume that once a cheat is discovered, that someone is going to figure out how they are doing it right away, and issue a fix? How long will we have to play online before a fix is released, and how long before someone just trying to be a pr1ck for fun finds a new hole.

No thanks, I like my bottle to have the saftey seal on it when I buy it.

Go make your own flight sim, and then spend the next 2-3 year making patches to keep the idiots out, while Oleg and his team make patches to make the game better!

S~

Akwar
01-04-2005, 07:49 PM
BAD idea IMHO,

I like Olegs way.If it was allowed then it would be like other sims such as MS flight simulator 02 or 04 or CFS where you download some really nice user made planes and then you also download poorly done ones as well.But you dont find that out till you actually fly them.
Olegs way eliminates that headache.

Von_Zero
01-04-2005, 07:52 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by FlakMagnent:
I guess I kinda asked for those. What I was talking about(MODDING) was more or less for the single player campaings. Im not talking about Uber Planes guys. All Im talking about is getting some of the planes that were left out in the game. Besides you would have to download the planes and if you simply didnt want it you wouldnt download it. Oleg could make it to where he would have to approve the MODS himself before it could be made availible. There are many ways this could work out if people would just open their minds. I dont want a CFS like sim either. I just want the planes not included with the game. I have a Janes Book of WW2 Fighters. This is an older book that has ALL the specifications on most of the warbirds used in WW2 by all Countries. I would just like to be able to have a choice on some of the planes I would like to fly. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Theat is mostly the way it is working now:
someone wants a certain plane. He starts to model it. He gives it to Oleg. If the model is good enough to pass the "quality tests" and if the dev team can integrate it into the game, they accept it.
Like the others said, an open-souce sim would be a very bad ideea, since there wouldn't be a control about a how certain plane should fly or a certain weapon would hit. A verry good example would be the classical ".50s can kill Tiger tanks" debate. (for those who weren't here just have a search and you'll be amazed). Just imagine that someone would put the power of a 150mm howitzer on a .50 just because "he heard about such and such"....

Athosd
01-04-2005, 08:22 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by FlakMagnent:
Oleg could make it to where he would have to approve the MODS himself before it could be made availible.... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That would still entail a great deal of work for Oleg, thus defeating the purpose of an SDK (which is usually kicked out the door when the developers cease other support).
Those wishing to make components for the game are already free to do so - many aircraft and ground unit models have already been produced by the community and added to the sim in patches/addons.

FB+AEP+PF is a massive sim - and getting bigger all the time. There are currently about 175 flyable aircraft types modelled, with maps from Stalingrad to New Guinea. The depth and variety of the sim does not appear to have suffered as a result of the locked code.

As already stated many times in these forums - there are a number of sims already in the market that allow user mods (EAW, BoB, CFS1/2/3 etc etc). The IL2 series does not - which sets it apart from the crowd and also happens to be one of its strengths.

Tully__
01-05-2005, 03:32 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by FlakMagnent:
If Oleg would release an SDK or modding tools we could simply add the aircraft that we want in the game. I would like to see an addon or a mod that let me be a AA Gunner on a ship in pearl harbor while the japs attack. We could even put in the planes that Oleg cant because of copyright bull squat. What do the rest of you think?? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think that since I recall Oleg has said in the past that due to a number of reasons (including but not limited to the several man months of development time needed for an SDK) he wont even consider it until his current projects are completed and any post release patch issues for BoB are resolved, we're probably not going to get an SDK for at least a couple more years.

LEXX_Luthor
01-05-2005, 11:27 AM
Flak has a point. If internet dogfighting is restricted to Oleg's "official" planes alone, and single play offline can get extra planes, there is no issue of Cheat FMs or weapons. StrikeFighters proves you can have strong offline play enthusiastic community that is fully 3rd Party modded, although the bizzaro method of Patching up your SF game--downloading half the internet--is one reason I like everything done in one place...Moscow.

And, its kinda neat that all my FMs I use offline here in Ussia are coming from Russia. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

DDad
01-05-2005, 01:36 PM
The ONLY way I could see such a thing happening would to have the code "opened up" to a select group of individuals who will be satisfied to do planes to Olegs level. Something comparable to the 1% CFS planes, IMO

crazyivan1970
01-05-2005, 03:37 PM
I said it before and i`ll say it again... once source code is open for third party... it`s over for me. Closed source code is one of the Key reasons IL-2 series are still holding the crown.

darkhorizon11
01-06-2005, 02:07 PM
Yeah, open source is no good. At least for aircraft, the game kinda losses its luster when I'm cruising around in my ME262 thinkin' I'm king of the skies and then low and behold a F-22 Raptor shoots out of a cloud. All of a sudden I feel intimidated.

Actually one thing that I am all for allowing anyone to make maps. Aircraft is one thing, but maps are maps. PF was the only payware with maps, every other added map in the game was free so I figure why not just have a mapmaker program. It would relieve 1c of the strain of making modeling all these locations that are by and large free. Especially since theres almost as many posts asking for aircraft as maps and there are still tons of historical and non historical terrains that are untouched thus far.

NorrisMcWhirter
01-06-2005, 05:15 PM
Hi,

In principle, it's a good idea but people are never sensible/disciplined enough to make it work in reality.

We'd have some servers running one nation's accepted idea of aircraft performance and another server running their version etc etc etc

Bad news...

Even though Oleg appears to show some bias/is swayed on certain matters (barracking vs actual data), at least there is a single source of error (if any) to complain to.

To put it another way, CFS has 'open architecture' and look where that has ended up.....up the creek without a paddle. OK, so it's not entirely the fault of it being open but I think Il-2s success, in the face of adversity, must mean something is being done right.

Cheers,
Norris

Athosd
01-06-2005, 07:40 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by darkhorizon11:
Actually one thing that I am all for allowing anyone to make maps.... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Maps for the IL2 series are apparently very difficult to create - Oleg has stated that the tools are complex and were never intended for use outside of the development team.
The 3rd party map builders - Ian Boys and Co - required extensive support from 1C in order to get up to speed.
The huge investment in time and effort required to build these maps doesn't all go out for free. The maps themselves and any new game content are included in standard game updates - but the associated campaigns will most likely be made available in a 3rd party payware addon (Battle over Europe did this with the western maps - and I'm expecting the same thing for Kurland/Murmansk).

F4U_Flyer
01-06-2005, 09:35 PM
more payware? Havent we paid enough for an unfinished sim already? I wont touch the fm battle because i think it's in the works but maps! we got one lagoon out of the whole pacific and not even the whole lagoon! Don't get me wrong but guadalcanal ends halfway up the southernmost island in the solomons. where is the rest? It could have been done in sections if the size was a problem. How about port moresby and new guinea ,new caledonia , santa cruz , the marshalls ,the phillipines , china burma and there are many many more that could be used to make a campaign or mission set to cover the whole war start to finish,
The lack of reasonable missions , just a missmatch of willie nillie missions with no perspective of the war! I know there are people out there that could build awesome missions if they had the maps to work with.
This game was portrayed as being il2 moved to the pacific but as it turns out its just an expensive addon for fb. I like the game and will probably have some fun with it but i fear it will be just like il2 to me, played a couple months then gathering dust on my harddrive.
I had high hopes after the dissapointment of cfs3 and the aging of cfs2 and had hoped this could be my new fighter home ! But the way it looks im not so sure , I want torpedo bombers but i also want a more complete game and i havent heard anything positive about new maps and that is discouraging . I hope im proved wrong but i really dont see the light at the end of the tunnel. I bought pf 2 days after it came out with the excitement of a kid at christmas but slowly that excitement has been fading. Will this game be saved or sent to the great pile of could'a been's. Only time will tell but , i'm still hoping!!

BlitzPig_DDT
01-07-2005, 08:55 AM
lol! The *one* time Clint_Ruin has ever actually had a valid point and something to add to the conversation, and nobody seems to pay any attention to him.

But he is right though. People who are against it have no real idea of how such things can, and in many cases, do, work. All they can see is ONE, POORLY HANDLED, example, and they equate everything to it. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

SDKs and/or open code are the way to go so long as appropriate safeguards are in place. Some of the best sims around are not officially developed by an company, but rather their communities. Not possible for a totally sealed system.

NorrisMcWhirter
01-07-2005, 09:21 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
But he is right though. People who are against it have no real idea of how such things can, and in many cases, do, work. All they can see is ONE, POORLY HANDLED, example, and they equate everything to it. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hi,

What shining examples to behold are there?

Cheers,
norris

csThor
01-07-2005, 09:29 AM
An SDK would require a mature community which left "development" to those who actually can deliver quality. Just look at these boards here and all those whines and moans - can you really see this happening? I cannot. There are just too many self-proclaimed experts on different matters (can you say 0.50cal vs Tiger ?).

Ian Boys needed 14 months to learn to avoid the hidden cliffs of the map tool (which is an extremely problematic piece of software anyway). How long have Jippo and Dietger been working on the Ju-88? When was the first time we saw pictures of the Tempest? How long was the Bf 110 cockpit in development? Making stuff for this engine is hard, harder than for most other games. Even though I'd like to see some more objects (more distinguished rail objects, additional ground units for Red Army and especially Germany, new ships for Germany etc) I cannot see it happen nor am I willing to sacrifice a minimum of quality for a load of "objects" which should be filed unter "dustbin" right away.

DDT - an SDK might be a fine thing for those games where the developer has abandond the game and perhaps the whole flightsim genre at all. As Maddox Games might want to utilize parts of Il-2's code for BoB or at least wants to base BoB on experiences made with Il-2 I don't think they'll let anyone take a look at their code. Not if they plan to earn their money with its derivates (and I wouldn't, either).

Tully__
01-07-2005, 09:51 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by F4U_Flyer:
more payware? Havent we paid enough for an unfinished sim already? I wont touch the fm battle because i think it's in the works but maps! we got one lagoon out of the whole pacific and not even the whole lagoon! Don't get me wrong but guadalcanal ends halfway up the southernmost island in the solomons. where is the rest? It could have been done in sections if the size was a problem. How about port moresby and new guinea ,new caledonia , santa cruz , the marshalls ,the phillipines , china burma and there are many many more that could be used to make a campaign or mission set to cover the whole war start to finish, ... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You don't just whip up a map in five minutes. Each map requires months of man hours. We're lucky to have as many as we do considering the work required for each one.

Chivas
01-07-2005, 10:25 AM
There is more than enough content in IL-2/FB/PF to keep anyone with a little imagination going for years. Then you can move on to BOB and its add-ons.