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XyZspineZyX
12-12-2004, 01:17 AM
How well do P38's do in online combat? Do many people fly them? How do they stack up against the favorites?

I love this plane because of it's raw power and concentrated nose guns. Besides, it's a beauty.

Is it possible to specialize in this plane and kick lots of butt online against comparable quality opponents?

(Until I can upgrade my system, I have no hope to compete online. I am really looking forward to it though!)

Fehler
12-12-2004, 01:25 AM
I dont think they do too badly. Some guys really specialize in them. Altitude advantage is a must, and patience is a virtue in this plane, for sure!

When I am forced to fly allied, I almost always select the Lightning. It has character, although it has to be the ugliest plane ever made... I do believe, however, that my dislike for it comes from building the silly Monogram 1/48th model as a kid. I nicknamed it the "Putty Plane" because that kit was such a POS, didnt fit together well, and I had to use a whole tube of Squadron Green on it to make it look half way nice.

It seems to fair better against 20mm fire than 30mm fire, however, so keep that in mind if your main opponants are late model 109's or the FW A-8, A-9, Ta-152.

ImpStarDuece
12-12-2004, 02:00 AM
Smart P-38 drivers give me the heebee jeebees online. When they push their acceleration, dive and high speed cornering advantages they are tough to beat. On a Full Switch/no incons or no externals server they generally do quite well if the refuse to fight in the horizontal, use team tactics and are accurate with initial bursts. A patient P-38 pilot will generally fly me into the ground or turn my ship into confetti (not that that is hard by any means http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif)

The other case is the DF stlye P-38 flyer who turns and burns. And burn they usually do. The top profile of the P-38 is a VERY large target if your used to shooting Japanese or German birds, so deflection shooting is relaively east. I find that the Allisons tend to burn rather quickly if you hit them from the top. Dead 6 shots on the P-38 are more of a problem, they tend to gobble a dozen 20mm shell before indegestion sets in. Because of its size and mass, slow roll and poor turning circle the P-38 is a BAD bird to be in a slow dogfight in. Down low its only saving graces are its accleration and durability and the airbrakes on the L help in forcing overshoots.

FatBoyHK
12-12-2004, 02:12 AM
compression at high speed is the number one problem you need to handle. This make BnZ a bit harder, and will certainly toast some beginners. But after you get used to it, it is just fine.

Korolov
12-12-2004, 03:01 AM
I'd say 75% get their butts handed to them. Being successful in the P-38 online, especially in dogfights, is a lesson in patience. Like the P-47 and P-51, you have to climb to a good altitude before engagement; only then does the P-38 become a force to be reckoned with.

This leaves you with maybe spending 8 to 10 minutes climbing to 20,000/7000m or thereabouts. Naturally, it's a tricky position because you can't easily dive down at a target operating at 2000-4000m, and there are still chances of a bandit being above you. But against slightly lower, more immediate threats, with the chance of surprise, it's exceptional.

F19_Ob
12-12-2004, 03:12 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by AgentBif:

Is it possible to specialize in this plane and kick lots of butt online against comparable quality opponents?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have'nt seen anyone kick butt in it yet, exept against inexperienced zero pilots http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Its good to have general knowledge of the opponents, to know what they can do and not.
The best features of the p38 is climb, speed and two engines and it even flies well on one engine when the other is feathered.

Bf109's are hard opponents because of their small size and agility aswell as speed, climb and armament, especially later variants with 30mm cannon.
The 109 out-turns the p38 in most situations and it also can do hard breaking turns and lose all speed very rapidly and then accellerate and outclimb from a standstill better than most.
It is ofcourse possible to turn inside a 109 in some situations and it all boils down to how well one reads the tactical situation. A slight missjudgement from a better opponent may turn the situation to your advantage if u recognize it.
So hoping for superior performance against 109's wont work, but recognizing advantages in tactical situations and good high-angle deflection skills will increase the chances for a p38-pilot to shoot down better opponents (meaning planes).
As with all planes its a must to learn the best possible turn in the p38 because sometimes that turn will be enough.

The p38 may outturn the fw190 but it still can be very difficult to hit when it starts rolling and scissoring in evasion because of its fast roll. One shouldnt be too surprized to find the guns out of ammo and seeing the fw190 fly away unharmed or with a few scratches.

The zero is a different matter because the p38 can fly away from it and thus use safe BnZ tactics. To hit a zero that is aware of your presence is a bit more difficult.
Head-on with a zero is also dangerous because of its cannons and its good turn.
The zero may start turning earlier in the head on and practically end up close on your 6.

------------------------------

Its absolutely important to know the limits of your plane to perform well, aswell as knowing the opponents plane. The difficult part is gaining experience and tactical knowledge, and that is an ongoing process without end.

--------------------------------

A good tip for p38 pilots is to always know where the clouds are incase of escapes or to gain better position against opponents on the advantage.



Well....my opinion.

JaBo_HH-BlackSheep
12-12-2004, 04:45 AM
the lightning is nice, it's online abilitys are somewhat simmlar to the FW190A8.

it is not as good as a P51, P47 or Spitfire but it can be a nice suprise for the enemy when he underestimated that fast twin http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

the only problem in the P38 is:
everyone will attack you first.
they will ignore P51's Spitfires and whatever as soon as they spot the lightning.(easy > BIG target)

Last time i flew it online, i got strafed by a D9 on take-off (luckyly he missed) but was attacking me further right after my take-off.
well i messed around with him and finaly got him in some sort of 3D-siccor and roling move with nice turning stuff, the D9 stalled out and i was behind it http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
he than run away (44D9), i couldn't catch him but i think he was shocked^^

pacettid
12-12-2004, 07:19 AM
See this thread for some additional view points on this subject:
http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums?a=tpc&s=400102&f=63110913&m=6171065052

Here are my thoughts on the subject from the above thread:

"I seldom post in these FM threads, as they have been "done to death", but I enjoy flying both models of the P-38 and I normally do pretty well in both during on-line play, so I will give you my 2 cents worth:

- Rule Nr. 1 - When flying either model in PF, always try to keep speed at 300 mph or above. If you stick to this rule (P-38 ace Thomas McGuire's rule, btw), you almost never have to worry about any plane, except the Ki-84, getting on your six and doing any great damage. I never fly anything but historic plane sets on our PF server, so cannot comment on non-historic match-ups, or ETO issues.
- Rule Nr. 2 - When flying the P-38J do not allow airspeed above 400 mph in a dive, or you will suffer compression. The steeper the dive angle, the more pronounced the effect. When diving on a target, keep airspeed below 400 until you level out, then cram on the throttle. Once you are level and are approaching the target, speed is good.
- Rule Nr. 3 - Patience, Patience, Patience. Most guys who complain about the P-38 on our server do not have the patience to use proper energy tactics. I frequently see them trying to TnB with A6M5's or Tony's, and they pay the price accordingly. Never turn more than 90 degrees with an adversary; Rule Nr. 1 and 4 also apply.
- Rule Nr. 4 - Use team work. I have never seen a "lone wolf" last very long on our server, no matter what plane he flies. It works in combat, and PF+FB+AEP is no different.
- Rule Nr. 5 - Altitude is your best friend. Altitude is potential energy (see Rule Nr. 1), and it also gives you plenty of options. Most of the guys who seem to get killed alot in the P-38 are low, and slow too, for that matter.
- Rule Nr. 6 - Practice, Practice, Practice. If you want to be good at a particular plane you have to fly it until you know it like "the back of your hand"; the P-38 is no exception. I see lot's of guys on our server change planes every time they respawn. Combat pilots know their mounts well; you must too. As for the gunnery issues, use Quick mission Builder to practice head-on and slashing attacks on Zekes and other TnB planes until you can do them in your sleep. If you put your bullet stream in front of one of these planes and he flys into it, he is going to be in big trouble.

The FMs in the sim "...are what they are". All I can tell you is IF I use the rules above, I almost always come back from every mission I fly."

SithSpeeder
12-12-2004, 11:04 AM
In the rooms I prefer, there is more to winning than the dogfight. Sometimes, a map can be won by destroying ground targets (trucks, tanks, buildings, etc.), and for sheer ordinance capabilities, the P-38 is unequaled and very stable.

Taking 10 rockets, bombs, and your full load of ammo gives you the ability to put a lot of hurt down on the ground forces. What works best for me has been
1. to attack the targets that are not near the main furball or two OR
2. only go into a fight with superior E OR
3. only go into a fight with lots of agile friendlies who are responsive to your cries for help (spits and stangs).

I've been 5 for 5 on German tanks before with my rockets, dropped some serious bombs, then used cannons and mgs to clean up a vehicle column, then snuck back to one of the non used bases.

YMMV.

* _54th_Speeder *

VW-IceFire
12-12-2004, 12:27 PM
If its a PTO server without the Ki-84 on it...the P-38 is pretty much untouchable. It holds energy pretty decently, you can make it turn hard if you really need to get a snap shot in...

In the ETO its less capable as a fighter. The Bf-109 is close enough in speed and far more agile. The FW190 has a firepower advantage and roll rate advantage meaning that even it can probably out manuver a P-38 in a very fast scissors for defense and by matching its moves in an offensive manner. Plus its larger than most opponents so its an "easy" target if you are in range. Depends on the pilot...I think the Jug and Mustang are more capable (as fighters) in the ETO but in the PTO the P-38 really shines.

609IAP_Recon
12-12-2004, 02:39 PM
vs. 109K4 like on War Clouds... fares horribly imo

Actually, anything against 109K4 on war clouds fares horribly - LOL

I agree with IceFire.

Stiglr
12-12-2004, 03:20 PM
Korolov wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I'd say 75% get their butts handed to them. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's been my experience, both here and in Target:Rabaul. Mostly because people insist on using it improperly (the same way they manage to fail miserably in a P-47).

I find P-38s to be big, crunchy target drones. They can run, and often I can't do anything about it, but overall, that's the best result for them.

HayateAce
12-12-2004, 03:21 PM
Since nobody seems willing to say it, I will.

Online the P38 is nothing more than a target, and an easy one at that. A score inflation tool for the LW players that seek them out.

For an aircraft with a huge elevator, it has crappy authority at higher speeds. Oleg has tossed in his compressability gimmick for this one aircraft just so we can use the dive brake.

Yippee.

C'mon, the elevator becomes very stiff at 600-650 kph in a shallow dive at low alt. Seriously, has anyone ever read about P38 elevator effectiveness going away at such speeds. Maybe it's true, but I haven't read it. I know the L had boosted aileron control, how about the elevator?

So to answer your question, nobody is kicking butt in the P38 online. And now stand by while korolov steps in and shows his track of him blasting away 10 bandits in one sortie in a COOP or something. The bottom line is I've never seen anyone in say, warclouds do much in it besides blow up Opel Blitz trucks and BMW motorbikes. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

The one exception: A P38J in a 1943 Pacific server is just about untouchable by the zeros if you never let off the gas and never turn the aircraft more than 10 degrees at a time.

Korolov
12-12-2004, 03:23 PM
Gee, so it's not enough to be able to wax a few guys in the P-38, now I have to fly on Warclouds?

You people are a real piece of work. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

EDIT: I should also add, that the primary cause for failure in any plane is due to the fault of the pilot, not the plane. I don't bother with the brass tacks, I figure out ways to fly the dang things.

Bull_dog_
12-12-2004, 04:06 PM
I'll tell you this...check the rules and suggestions posted before me like the flying with a wingman, team tactics...only on full switch servers, fight with agile friendlies etc...

That is a lot of "IFS".

With that many ifs, I guarentee that if you meet me or any competent opponent in a European server online, you will die in a lightning unless you have complete suprise and altitude advantage. I love to fly a lightning and have often both with and against it. I'm not bragging, only that the Lightning can only win when it is in a very advantageous position and I know because I view it as an easy kill and I've seen people get genuinely po'd when I killed them in it....if it doesn't have lots of altitude and some degree of suprise, it can't evade anything and it certainly lacks the ability stay on the tail of anything for more than a brief few seconds...horizontal or vertical.

Easiest way to defeat a lightning is get fast and start manuevering...easiest way to defeat a lightning is in a slow turning fight. The Lightning will perform well in an envelope less than 5000 meters and speeds between 400km/hr and 550km/hr at dive angles of less than 30 degrees....you see what I mean by a lot of ifs.

In a 1943 server with fw190A-5's and unboosted 109's like the G2 and G6 a J model can do really well if you are patient actually because it can climb slightly better than the Fw and it is faster at low altitude/sea level than the 109 but that is the only situation that it is really competitive in.

This plane has been the biggest dissappointment of this entire sim imho and Oleg hasn't made an attempt to rectify it. I see lots of posts, many pointing to documentation that shows how wrong it is.

I would think, base on what I have read, the P-38J should be a very competitive plane up high but easy to evade w/ split S and a monster at medium and low altitude. The L model should be one of the best dogfighters in the sim...against European opponents that is...it had awesome acceleration, climb rates up there with the best, power boost, good turn rates, zoom, slow speed stall and no torque.

Like was mentioned above, in a Pacific theater server without Ki's you can do extremely well as long as you keep your speed up and are patient.

VFA-195 Snacky
12-12-2004, 05:32 PM
The only issues I see with the P38 in FB/PF is the Torque issues the P38 has when it shouldn't have any. When other single engine aircraft such as the P51 and P47 require no rudder trim to counter engine torque and the P38 does we have a problem.
Another issue with the P38 is the lack of dive brakes on the J model.
Historically the P38 did not have quite the top end speed the P51 and P47 did, but it did have better acceleration and climb than both aircraft. The P38 could zoom climb better than any aircraft in WWII but this is not reflected in FB/PF.
It's turn ability at low altitudes is also well documented.

As already said it is possible to be successfull in the P38 online, but you have to know your limitations and be patient. Always have a wingman with a similar aircraft. You dont want to pair up with a Spit or a TnB plane. Shallow dives, high speed, and make your first shot count. Make those 20mm rounds hit those wing roots and snap the wings.
You will not outrun Spits, 109s, or other US planes so dont try.
A Spit9 can run down and catch a P47 at 30k in this game so dont even try and think you will escape one in a P38.
Use those dive brakes! A side advantage to the dive brakes is they give a slight pitch up authority when used with combat flaps that could allow you to snap shot a bandit out turning you OR allow you to , for a brief moment, pitch away from a diving attack.

Stiglr
12-12-2004, 08:23 PM
To say that the P-38 didn't have dive compressibility issues is basically saying you know diddly squat about it.

This was a major problem with the family through the P-38F. Not until the J and L models was it really dealt with, and even then, with its speed, it was getting up near where it was an issue with all aircraft, not just the -38.

People's problems with this plane may always be due to some modeling issues and inaccuracies... but mostly, I feel it's because they try to do things with it they should not be doing. Trying to turn with Zeros. Trying to outclimb 109s (without a big head of steam beforehand). Trying to outrun late model planes which themselves have speed.

Learn your mount, and your enemies'; that might lead you to some effective tactics for this plane.

Atomic_Marten
12-12-2004, 09:07 PM
I think it must perform very well in Pacific theatre considering opposition.

I think they have edge in all fights vs. A6Ms Ki43 and 61s, exception is Frank. But then, Frank is exception for every plane built for this game http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif.

And also, being a guy that really do not fly P38, I must say that if one select this a/c, must know his way to handle it, otherwise he is wasting his virtual life.

Both P47 and P51 are easier to fly, of that trio P51 being maybe the easiest.(check the high turn speed http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif)

WUAF_Badsight
12-12-2004, 09:22 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by HayateAce:
For an aircraft with a huge elevator, it has crappy authority at higher speeds. Oleg has tossed in his compressability gimmick for this one aircraft

C'mon, the elevator becomes very stiff at 600-650 kph in a shallow dive at low alt. Seriously, has anyone ever read about P38 elevator effectiveness going away at such speeds. Maybe it's true, but I haven't read it. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
you havent flowen a bf109 at all have you

"one Aircraft" pffft http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

HayateAce
12-13-2004, 02:25 AM
badsight, you really must have poor vision. You don't read posts very well, then you go straight to banging on your keyboard.

I'm well aware that compressibility was FIRST NOTICED by the US in their P38 lightnings. But the game is modeling compressibility as low as 1,000 meters. LOL.

Fly it sometime and check it out. In a shallow dive from 3,000 meters at around 550kph, the elevator authortiy begins to fade. Compressibility in the thicker air of 9,000 feet?

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

CHeck this:

Most early combat operational models would suffer from the compressibility problem. However, the problem was not experienced in all theaters of operation. The P-38 did not have compressibility issues while operating in India, the Mediterranean, or in the Pacific. This was primarily due to the nature of combat. In these areas, combat rarely took place above 25,000 ft., and compressibility would not occur if a dive was initiated below 25,000 ft. In Europe, combat operations were normally conducted at high altitudes. Soon, German pilots knew if they were in a bad situation, they could easily dive to safety. The P-38 would be able to dive faster than German fighters, but P-38 pilots were probably more scared of a high-speed dive than enemy fighters.

SNip:


It also seems the J model should have dive brakes:


[3] LIGHTNING IN MATURITY: P-38J, P-38L
* The definitive "P-38J" was introduced in August 1943. The twin booms of previous Lightnings featured a sleek, art-deco streamlining. However, the coolant system that had been housed in the inner part of the wings had proven vulnerable to combat damage and was inefficient anyway, and so engine fit was rethought. The most noticeable feature of the new fit was that the radiators were placed under the prop hub at the front of the booms, forming a "beard" that made the P-38J visibly different from its predecessors. The space left open in the wings was replaced with fuel tanks, further increasing the aircraft's long range. The revised engine fit made cooling much more efficient and improved both performance and reliability.

Late production P-38Js also finally overcame the compressibility problem through the introduction of minor aerodynamic changes. The most significant of these changes was the addition of a set of small dive flaps just outboard of the engines, on the bottom centerline of the wings. With these improvements, a USAAF pilot dived one to a terminal velocity of almost 970 KPH (600 MPH) and recovered in one piece.

Finally, later production of the P-38J was equipped with power-boosted flight controls, making the P-38J one of the first aircraft to have such a feature, and did much to improve the Lightning's roll rate and maneuverability. With a truly satisfactory Lightning in place, Lockheed ramped up production, working with subcontractors across the country to produce hundreds of Lightnings each month. Some 2,970 P-38Js were built.

More info on P38 compressibility. (http://p-38online.com/test.html)

At one time Oleg's low opinion of the P47 made it a total slug, until some determined folks showed him enough data to improve it to the decent Jug we have now. It is painfully obvious Oleg also has a low opinion of the P38 as well.

So, Leadspitter and a few other folks are trying to get the data-ball rolling to bring the Lighting into an accurate virtual world.

F19_Ob
12-13-2004, 02:39 AM
I would like to add to my above post , that although the p38 dont have the agility of the 109 there are ways to counter and get out of tight spots with a 109 on your tail.

A few p-38 tips.

1. Use clouds
Perhaps the best lifesaver and situation-converter for a p38 pilot is the "clouds", and
there are a big number of tactical advantage things involving clouds that really should be discussed more on the board.( I wrote a small piece on it some months ago ).
The clouds not only provide cover but also the possibility to convert a "being chased situation" to a "chasing the foe instead" situation.
When using clouds make sure U are absorbed completely by the cloud and so u cant be seen from below or above since the cloudlayer is thinner in the vertical. The experienced chaser will dive down below and may see u if u are'nt high enough in the cloud. When U think u are unseen, change direction.

2. Determine your foes skill(if possible).
In my p38 I have met many 109's and sometimes U can immediatly see that the opponent is experienced ,or even an expert.
I consider my own tactical skill quite high and by watching how my opponent counter my moves I have got a better understanding of my chanses.
(ofcourse experienced can make misstakes too)
This way I have successfully evaded 109's on many occasions with the aid of clouds. If I determined my foe an expert I know that I wont be able to convert to a firing possition out in the open and that its very likely that he will shoot me down, so then cloudbattles are the only solution. Sometimes I have tried to get help from friendly planes nearby, but then I cant control my situation and have to hope that the friendly understands what to do.

3 enemy armament
It matters alot what armament the 109 is using at the time. A p38 can take a few hits from a 20mm cannon but usually is completely out after the first 30mm round and even if the p38 still is in the air the controlls are gone.
So if the 109 have 20mm cannon I may risk a few daring maneuvers to gain firing position. With the 30mm its best to minimize the risks as much as possible.

4. Caught at altitude
If caught by a 109 at high altitude dogfights are to the 109's advantage and the best thing to do in the p38 is to get as much initial separation after the first pass but keep the altitude.
Depending on what armament the 109 have u might want to risk a head on if u have enough separation to turn around. If not and he is gaining on and are within firing distance the best way to get away is descending to the safety of clouds below, wich normally is suicide with a 109 on tail.
The best way to descend in a chase is by spiraling down in big circles wich cause maximum deflection-calculation problems for the chasing 109.
The engine should be idle and combatflap added (Watch your speed). divebrakes can be used in the later p38 aswell.
This spiral from high altitude can be used very effectively even in a hurricane and is the only way to escape a 109 since turning, rolling, climbing and straighter diving are out of the question (especially for the hurricane).
Observe that the spiral always end with escape in the clouds below, to get away or to start cloudbattling.


These things have made able to land in the end of the mission and even to shoot down some those experienced 109 pilots.
I also think a few years of flying the 109 also helps in the tight spots.

cheers

JaBo_HH-BlackSheep
12-13-2004, 02:47 AM
sadly we don't have early Lightnings, they would kick butt.

does anybody know if F or G lightnings were planned, in development (Gibbage?) or something ?

WUAF_Badsight
12-13-2004, 02:54 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by HayateAce:
badsight, you really must have poor vision. You don't read posts very well, then you go straight to banging on your keyboard. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
OH PUHLEEZ

your trying to say only the P-38 is made to suffer compressability

"Oleg has tossed in his compressability gimmick for this one aircraft."

complete & utter BS , come on dude at least show a minicule bit of objectivity , part of the reason that the p-38 was given so much compression is because the moddeler gave Maddox ames staff so much info about it

another reason is due to the FB game engine not being able to give differences due to altitude very well , but im sure you know this already as your a USAF fan & regular poster here from way back

(btw , when are you going to post your real login name here so we know which regular you really are ? huh ?)

OldMan____
12-13-2004, 03:25 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by HayateAce:


For an aircraft with a huge elevator, it has crappy authority at higher speeds. Oleg has tossed in his compressability gimmick for this one aircraft just so we can use the dive brake.

Yippee.

C'mon, the elevator becomes very stiff at 600-650 kph in a shallow dive at low alt. Seriously, has anyone ever read about P38 elevator effectiveness going away at such speeds. Maybe it's true, but I haven't read it. I know the L had boosted aileron control, how about the elevator?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That is exaclty the ideia. Large control surfaces WILL suffer from compression, smaller ones will not suffer so much from compression. Big surfaces are good for slow and medium speeds where you can get a lot of force acting with it.. but a higher speeds the counter force is too big so that no human can pull the surface up. Altitude is only an increasing factor.. not the main one. You can have this problem down low if you reach enough speed.

HayateAce
12-13-2004, 03:38 AM
You must have forgotten this part.

"....compressibility would not occur if a dive was initiated below 25,000 ft."

Now if you are referring to this portion in your comment about FB's game engine and altitude, then they need to remove this effect from the P38 since they can't recreate it accurately.

To your other comments, you are confusing compressibility with high-speed control response. You are oversimplifying if you say they are the same thing.

Yes, the 109 elevator stiffens up at higher speeds. It's supposed to. It was one of its design flaws.

HayateAce
12-13-2004, 03:51 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by OldMan____:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by HayateAce:


For an aircraft with a huge elevator, it has crappy authority at higher speeds. Oleg has tossed in his compressability gimmick for this one aircraft just so we can use the dive brake.

Yippee.

C'mon, the elevator becomes very stiff at 600-650 kph in a shallow dive at low alt. Seriously, has anyone ever read about P38 elevator effectiveness going away at such speeds. Maybe it's true, but I haven't read it. I know the L had boosted aileron control, how about the elevator?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That is exaclty the ideia. Large control surfaces WILL suffer from compression, smaller ones will not suffer so much from compression. Big surfaces are good for slow and medium speeds where you can get a lot of force acting with it.. but a higher speeds the counter force is too big so that no human can pull the surface up. Altitude is only an increasing factor.. not the main one. You can have this problem down low if you reach enough speed. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You're talking about high speed control response, and to my knowledge the P38 did not suffer from this. Neither did the P47 or P51. For comparison, the 109 and Zero did.

How about this:

Compressibility. (http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/Compressibility)

OldMan____
12-13-2004, 04:00 AM
They are not the same thing.. but compressibility is a situation that evolves on top of same aerodynamic issues that generate the casual loss of control. High altiude brings the situation into a different one that created compressibility.

Raptor_20thFG
12-13-2004, 07:01 AM
Hey Bif we have severall of pilots that fly the P38 I myself dont care for it very Much I am more of a Stang Driver but hey I am not that good when you get your computer set up for online play come see us at www.jointtacticalcommand.net (http://www.jointtacticalcommand.net) we fly the p38 online

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And I approve this message

GR142_Astro
12-13-2004, 03:50 PM
bimp

VW-IceFire
12-13-2004, 04:33 PM
Yep on warclouds they get pretty wiped out against Bf-109K-4's but as the coment was made...pretty much everything does except the P-51D.

Spitfire IX and P-38 I feel equally vulnerable in during that 1945 type scenario. On the other hand, nothing in that planeset can carry a firepower load like the P-38L can. You just need more cover...

horseback
12-13-2004, 05:54 PM
So, in short, the P-38 in the game continues to fall short of its historical performance. Torque causing control reversal in a stall where there was none. Poor elevator response, where it was superior against all comers at all speeds. Poor roll, when the hydraulic boost in post -H models made it at least as good as the Mustang. Poor turn, when the superior elevators made it a monster once it had rolled into position (LW pilots in N. Africa learned how quickly it could latch onto your tail-Steinhoff had some pointed comments about it, among other experten who operated in the Med).

Doubters should refer to Long Reach, the 31st volume in the Osprey Aircraft of the Aces series (most accessible choice; most other authoritive combat histories will say much the same thing). It is a compilation of the preferred tactics of aces and fighter leaders in the 8th Fighter Command, straight from the men themselves, written as an attempt to promulgate the best ways to fight in each of the major fighter types in the ETO. The Lightning drivers are absolutely clear about their ability to outrun, outturn and outclimb their German opposition at all altitudes up to 25,000 ft. Their only caution is avoiding a steep high speed dive. Contemporary intelligence reports and memoirs of pilots on both sides support their contentions.

The Il-2FB/AEP/PF FMs won't give you that. All that is still there is the accelleration and climb, and not necessarily all of that. Like the pilot's forward view in the 190, it's not likely to change.

cheers

horseback

OldMan____
12-13-2004, 06:14 PM
Please..remember such statements were made at a time when LW had no K4 or Dora, P38 was much less used at europe when these LW oposition came, so you cannot compare statements made upon F4 while fighting against K4 and D9 that are MUCH better.

P38 evolved a a slower rate than 109, 190 and specially Spitfire.


And hey Icefire.. I would not say spitfires are owned at late war scenario.. They can be defeated but they are not just targets. I find them more dangerous than p51 (mainly due to that hispanos)

mortoma
12-13-2004, 06:45 PM
If the P-38 in the game could turn as well as it did in RL, many would do better online with it.
It was a tight turning plane in reality.

LEXX_Luthor
12-13-2004, 06:47 PM
Well, it seems many online dogfighters here can't do well in it, and some can. This reflects historical record. P~38 took more to master than most fighters. Overall, well done Oleg. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

If every internet "Ace" dogfighter at this webboard was Happy with the Brownie Points they score while flying P~38 against internet K4, then I would be worried about P~38. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

HayateAce
12-13-2004, 09:24 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif

Another steaming pile from lux luxxor.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif

The P38 is NOT well done.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif

Go start a thread about the crank rate on the I~16 landing gear.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif

Korolov
12-13-2004, 09:27 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by OldMan____:
Please..remember such statements were made at a time when LW had no K4 or Dora, P38 was much less used at europe when these LW oposition came, so you cannot compare statements made upon F4 while fighting against K4 and D9 that are MUCH better.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

P-38s faced 109K and 190Ds in the ETO. Galland was almost killed by a P-38 late in the war - and he was in a 190D.

Keep in mind that the 190D and 109K at that point of the war couldn't be used to max effeciency due to poor quality and fuel shortages. They might have well been fueling the planes with whiskey or beer.

VW-IceFire
12-13-2004, 09:39 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by OldMan____:
Please..remember such statements were made at a time when LW had no K4 or Dora, P38 was much less used at europe when these LW oposition came, so you cannot compare statements made upon F4 while fighting against K4 and D9 that are MUCH better.

P38 evolved a a slower rate than 109, 190 and specially Spitfire.


And hey Icefire.. I would not say spitfires are owned at late war scenario.. They can be defeated but they are not just targets. I find them more dangerous than p51 (mainly due to that hispanos) <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I say what I say because I'm so much more dangerous in a P-51D in a late war scenario like the one on UK-Dedicated. I got a kill ratio of 1:1 in a Spitfire IXe against 109K-4's. Which usually means I can get one of them before they get me. But in the P-51D-20 I can get 4-5 of them before I have to land or they get me. My thinking is the reason this is so has to do with speed. Because my aim is impecable with both and I tend to try and use the same strategy with both...or a similar strategy.

*shrug* Depends I guess.

IX isn't just a target...its dangerous, but in a comparative way...a well flown 51D I think is the more dangerous threat.

Back to the P-38...I still think too many people beat up on it. Roll rate shows the P-38L with power assist ailerons gaining a boost at high speeds only. At low speeds the power assist didn't make any difference. And the roll rate of the 38L at 500+ is very high...problem is that compressability starts to set in. Nonetheless, I find the P-38's roll rate to be quite good as is.

Pluses for the P-38:
1) Firepower is melting if you can get it on target (its total precision or nothing)
2) Roll rate decent at all speeds, especiall on the L
3) Turn rate can be excellent when using combat flaps or dive breaks. Instant turn in particular.
4) Faster than most competitors in the PTO and evenly matched in the ETO.

Its biggest problem is size. Its easier to hit. The problems of compressability aren't problems if you know how to manage it...the excellent speed in dive can be translated into an excellent zoom climb too. The torque roll is exhibited on everyplane...the P-38's is mild in comparsion (its not perfect or 100% historical but its not bad).

So its not a crappy fighter. But its not the best and its well liked by a few experten.

XyZspineZyX
12-13-2004, 09:48 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by horseback:
So, in short, the P-38 in the game continues to fall short of its historical performance. Torque causing control reversal in a stall where there was _none._ <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is not the first time I've heard people griping about torquing on the P-38. I personally can detect none. There is a wingover during a turn stall, but that isn't a function of torque, it is due to differential stalling of one wing in an overly aggressive turn... The P-38 should have that and it does in the game. Is that what you are referring to when you say it suffers "torque"?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
Poor turn, when the superior elevators made it a monster once it had rolled into position
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

My understanding is that the P-38 had good pitch authority but was not good at sustained turning (it IS very heavy after all and doesn't have good wing loading). So it could get into a high G turn crisply but it would bleed fast. At least, these are the impressions I have formed through all the various readings over the years.

From the materials people have quoted here it does seem that the P-38 shouldn't suffer so badly from compression problems... That really needs to be looked into (altitude, other atmospheric conditions).

And the hydraulic ailerons really need to be implemented. It was always my understanding that the hydraulics gave the late P-38's _impressive_ roll rate compared to other aircraft... not merely mediocre rolling. I hope someone can come up with some actual roll rate numbers at various speeds to help Oleg and company with this.

BTW, did the P-38 have hydraulic elevator assistance too?

Korolov
12-13-2004, 11:31 PM
The P-38L does have boosted ailerons - but you have to be going 500kmh and beyond to see the effects.

P-38s were never equipped with hydraulically assisted elevator controls, just ailerons.

LeadSpitter_
12-13-2004, 11:48 PM
They do fairly well against the japanese ac but dont really stand much of a chance vs german 1 spirt and they explode by the german death lazers unless in a big group of 5-6. Usually shoot a 190 5-11 times with the p38 cannon and just flops them around a bit, .50s dont even bother firing them at 190s or 109ks

A bunch of the llv34s and I went in a big group to bomb thier base I saved flanker from a 109 and 1 190d ran out of ammo but had bombs and rockets left then 3rd 190 came in and collided into me. Only 2 made it back out of the 6 of us.

Its a pretty deadly plane if flown right but weapons seems much much much to weak but fair well against japanese ac


the p38 also did not suffer complete compressibility at 550kmph.

look at the J model which achieves 666kmph TAS at 26,000 feet for example. In fact most L pilots wired the divebrake back becuase it would jam in high speed dives they would do the same on the a36 apache with dive breaks.

i really hope they add some early p38s for the pto they are fun to get shot down in.

XyZspineZyX
12-14-2004, 12:39 AM
I found a roll rate chart (http://home.att.net/~ww2aviation/RollChart.html) which claims its data comes from Lockheed.

The chart is from this online document: Der Gabelschwanz Teufel (http://home.att.net/~ww2aviation/P-38-3.html).

So it seems that boosted roll rate should not become dramatically noticed until the aircraft gets over 300 MPH TAS. Over 350 MPH TAS the boosted roll of the P38 is supposed to beat anything in the air... (P-51 and FW190 being the usual roll demons of the skies).

VFA-195 Snacky
12-14-2004, 12:44 AM
If they would fix the Torque and compression issues then I think the P38 would be pretty close.
They also need to add Dive breaks to the J model.

HayateAce
12-14-2004, 12:49 AM
"....compressibility would not occur if a dive was initiated below 25,000 ft."

Copperhead310th
12-14-2004, 01:09 AM
How deos the P-38 fair online?

Good quetion. but you would be better of ignoreing the ppl who have little stick time in the aircraft becuse they are in a 109 or 190 90% of thier time on line. (like wise even though i have a good bit of time in the 38 i'm also unqulified to make any objective comments on it's dogfighting ablity as we maily use it for a ground pounder and i spend 80 to 90% of my time in a P-47.) I would instead pose that question to some one who spends a great deal of time in the P-38. I would sugest containg 1 of the guys from the 9th FlyingKnights. they so fairly well in the P-38...i think it's thier main ride.

faustnik
12-14-2004, 01:18 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Copperhead310th:
How deos the P-38 fair online?

Good quetion. but you would be better of ignoreing the ppl who have little stick time in the aircraft. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Gibbage would be a great person to ask about the P-38.

GR142-Pipper
12-14-2004, 01:53 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by AgentBif:
How well do P38's do in online combat? Do many people fly them? How do they stack up against the favorites?

I love this plane because of it's raw power and concentrated nose guns. Besides, it's a beauty.

Is it possible to specialize in this plane and kick lots of butt online against comparable quality opponents? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I hate to burst your bubble AgentBif because I also really like the looks (and war record) of the P-38 too but in this sim, it's a dog. Unlike in real life, the plane can't do anything well and does a lot of things in a mediocre way....enough to get you killed in just about any engaged scenario. Sorry to sound negative but that's my take.

GR142-Pipper

GR142-Pipper
12-14-2004, 02:13 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WUAF_Badsight:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by HayateAce:
badsight, you really must have poor vision. You don't read posts very well, then you go straight to banging on your keyboard. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
OH PUHLEEZ

your trying to say only the P-38 is made to suffer compressability <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Pick up the pace a little, Badsight.

What's been said is that the P-38 as modeled in this sim gets compressability at low/medium altitudes and at airspeeds around 400 mph. It's flat wrong and this is what is being pointed out.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Hayateace quote: "Oleg has tossed in his compressability gimmick for this one aircraft." <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>complete & utter BS , come on dude at least show a minicule bit of objectivity , part of the reason that the p-38 was given so much compression is because the moddeler gave Maddox ames staff so much info about it <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> That's wonderful except it didn't occur at low/medium altitudes and 400 mph is simply too slow an airspeed for it as well.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>another reason is due to the FB game engine not being able to give differences due to altitude very well , but im sure you know this already as your a USAF fan & regular poster here from way back <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Ah, so it's the GAME ENGINE is it? Well, if compressability wasn't a factor in low/medium altitude scenarios, there is NO reason to implement it at all since very few flyers operate at or above 25k feet in on-line play. Why penalize an aircraft 100% of the time when the likely encountered scenario is entered into less than 1% of the time. (How many times have any of us seen a P-38 at that altitude? I never have.)

GR142-Pipper

XyZspineZyX
12-14-2004, 03:00 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
Well, if compressability wasn't a factor in low/medium altitude scenarios, there is NO reason to implement it at all since very few flyers operate at or above that altitude. Why penalize an aircraft 100% of the time when the likely encountered scenario is entered into less than 1% of the time.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't think this "no compressibility below 25k" is right. Check out the "dive redline" chart in the above article that I quoted...

As I understand it, compressibility is a function of mach number (speed of sound at given altitude). The bowshock in the transonic realm would start to interfere with airflow and result in the control surfaces not being able to influence the airflow significantly. The redline chart above implies that the danger zone is somewhere near .68 mach on the P38. (Mach number is a function of atmospheric conditions. As air gets more dense near the ground, a given mach number occurs at higher true velocities... So at high altitudes redline corresponds to around 400mph while near the ground redline corresponds to about 500mph.) This chart above implies that compressibility is a danger near the ground as well, but since it's harder to get the aircraft up to the critical velocity, it would be less of a worry down there.

Finally if compressibility were not a factor AT ALL below 25k, then why were pilots so afraid of it causing them to lose controll all the way down to sea level? Because once compressibility robs you of elevator authority, you just keep diving faster and faster, always remaining above the redline mach.

I think the dive flaps on the late J and all L models worked by slowing the aircraft down below the critical mach number.

OldMan____
12-14-2004, 03:02 AM
I think A correct statement would be " no SERIOUS compressibility happened below 25k feet" . That bacause no aerodynamic effect works in discreete modes.. like no compres here.. compress above here.

I think the compressibility you feel in game is just the beggining of the one tat the pilots felt under that conditions.

The important question is.. is is correctly scaled? Should it grow so fast? (can make same question about elevator on 109).

Even a 10- 15% differene on speed would give us large different flyght experience.

LilHorse
12-14-2004, 11:41 AM
As a 109 flyer (not late ones so much, I hate late war servers/ plane sets) I've found that if the P-38 is flown to it's advantages with a wingman it is very effective online.

One instance stands out for me when my wingman and I encountered two P-38s working very well together. They kept their speed up and worked us over as a team. High speed slashing runs. There was no doubt that they were both experianced P-38 flyers and a well practiced team.

And I wouldn't discount it's firepower at all. Four .50s and a 20mm ain't bad. It's two .50s better than the standard 109G6 loadout.

That said though, I don't think you'd do well as a lone wolf in it.

VFA-195 Snacky
12-14-2004, 09:19 PM
It's attitudes like yours that make flying the P38 worthwhile.


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by GR142-Pipper:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by AgentBif:
How well do P38's do in online combat? Do many people fly them? How do they stack up against the favorites?

I love this plane because of it's raw power and concentrated nose guns. Besides, it's a beauty.

Is it possible to specialize in this plane and kick lots of butt online against comparable quality opponents? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I hate to burst your bubble AgentBif because I also really like the looks (and war record) of the P-38 too but in this sim, it's a dog. Unlike in real life, the plane can't do anything well and does a lot of things in a mediocre way....enough to get you killed in just about any engaged scenario. Sorry to sound negative but that's my take.

GR142-Pipper <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Korolov
12-14-2004, 10:29 PM
I still think it's the best ground attack fighter package going around. Whatever shortcomings it has in the air, it makes up for it by being one of the best bomb trucks around.

PBNA-Boosher
12-15-2004, 07:39 AM
http://seafire.dreyermachine.com/images/origianlP38a.jpg

I thought SeafireLIV's P-38 pic is a worthy presentation here.

If alla y'all can't get kills in a 38, go back to flight school, you gotta learn how to fly.

ENERGY FIGHTING!!!!!
not BnZ
not TnB

JaBo_HH-BlackSheep
12-15-2004, 07:50 AM
i have to agree with the guns, but not because they are week, but because i can't hit **** with them they shake the plane all aroun when trying to shoot. not nice http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

i got maybe a 5% of hits when trying High-deflection-shooting with the lightning http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif
i don't know maybe it's because the Hispano is not verry accurate, or better to say low firing, it lacks the acuarry of the 109's MG151/20 in the HUB.

i think, if the USAAF - had build some MG151/20 instead of 4 Cal.50+1Hispano in the nose (i think 4 would be possible) it would have the a heck of a firepower http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

however most problem is not gunpower, but hitting the target actually http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

can anyone post some tracks how to aim in the P38 to actually hit something ?
(i mean i can life with the performance, but i am not evan able to hit a 109 in a Head2Head...http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif)

Airmail109
12-15-2004, 09:07 AM
the p-38 is uber........be sure http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

WOLFMondo
12-15-2004, 10:09 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Korolov:
I still think it's the best ground attack fighter package going around. Whatever shortcomings it has in the air, it makes up for it by being one of the best bomb trucks around. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

100% agree, you name it, it can blow it up. As a ground pounder its got every positive trait you could ever want. I little more armour would be nice but the size and 2 engines redundancy make up for that.

HayateAce
12-15-2004, 07:09 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JaBo_HH-BlackSheep:
i have to agree with the guns, but not because they are week, but because i can't hit **** with them they shake the plane all aroun when trying to shoot. not nice http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

i got maybe a 5% of hits when trying High-deflection-shooting with the lightning http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif
i don't know maybe it's because the Hispano is not verry accurate, or better to say low firing, it lacks the acuarry of the 109's MG151/20 in the HUB.

i think, if the USAAF - had build some MG151/20 instead of 4 Cal.50+1Hispano in the nose (i think 4 would be possible) it would have the a heck of a firepower http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

however most problem is not gunpower, but hitting the target actually http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

can anyone post some tracks how to aim in the P38 to actually hit something ?
(i mean i can life with the performance, but i am not evan able to hit a 109 in a Head2Head...http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif) <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Amen.

Try this folks.

Do a quick mission builder with you in the P38 against 4 Ace Zeros and try some BnZ and deflection shooting. Yes, I can hit them but the Hispano is wildly inaccurate.

Now, switch the P38 out for a 109 with the Mk108. Much more stable gun platform and the nose harldy budges with the 30mm.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

The above scenario REVERSES real life performance of these two weapons. Swap the gun shake into the 109 Oleg.

And yes boosher, we know what e-fighting and BnZ is all about. But the incorrect high-speed handling of the P38 (disguised as compressibility at 1000m!) makes it much harder than it would be in real life.

One of the few moves from pilot anecdotes that I can pull off is pulling up over the top of a zoom and swapping ends with the rudders.

Cool.

It's a bigg-*** elevator back there Oleg Mate, let's see some realistic authority out of it.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

WOLFMondo
12-16-2004, 01:29 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JaBo_HH-BlackSheep:
i have to agree with the guns, but not because they are week, but because i can't hit **** with them they shake the plane all aroun when trying to shoot. not nice http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I had a look at this last night, its not the guns shaking the plane, its the pilots head thats shaking. Sit behind a plane and trim off and then fire, the gunsite hardly deviates from where you aim it.

Also take one up to 5000m+ and 300+mph, they roll very nicely at higher speeds. Im not the best P38 pilot but I can see its benefits, especially with a wing man.

JaBo_HH-BlackSheep
12-16-2004, 03:22 AM
you are probably right.

however i think the 109 with MK should be shaking the same, or the P38 less.
this would alsow make the MK108 less effective in A2Air combat (as it was not verry accurate for this, even when i have to admit, that the MK108 is not accurate actually...)

however i think the point is clear.

And well for the P38, yesterday i practiced a bit with it (vs AI-109G6late / P38J)
result, well i can get nice shooting with gunsettings to 1000m.

maybe i just need more practice in the P38 because of the different gun-placement compared to most of the other planes (FW > Wingcannons, P47 > Winguns)....

and i agree about the RoR it is quite decent at speeds from 350kph+ http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

WOLFMondo
12-16-2004, 04:02 AM
Why would the Mk108 vibrate more?

The P38's guns fire in mounts located in the nose of the plane. Theres 5 rapid firing guns mounted in a relativly small space with no engine or other objects to absord the vibration.

The BF109's Mk108 fires right through the engine. The engine is mounted on blocks designed to negate the vibration of the engine on the airframe. A 30mm shell being fired can't be that different from a fuel/air explosion firing a piston (dunno how big the heads are but probably bigger than 30mm across at a guess) of which happens at a much greater and more constant rate than the 30mm firing.

Im no expert but looking from that perspective it kind of makes some sense that the Mk108 wouldn't vibrate very badly, the P39's 37mm would vibrate badly, the P38's guns would vibrate allot, the nose guns on Yaks wouldn't vibrate that badly (also remembering wood will disipate the energy very easily compared to stress metal).

VFA-195 Snacky
12-16-2004, 08:08 AM
Why does the P38 get passed up in these patches? Can they fix the Torque issue and when?

Vipez-
12-16-2004, 09:05 AM
I would have to agree, P-38L with boosted ailerons modelled in the game would make P-38 far more deadly, than it currently is http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif I guess Oleg decided to model early L model without the boosted ailerons ?

GR142-Pipper
12-16-2004, 01:00 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by VFA-195 Snacky:
It's attitudes like yours that make flying the P38 worthwhile. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Great, if you enjoy flying the thing, please by my guest.

GR142-Pipper

Gustavflyer
12-16-2004, 03:05 PM
The 38 can be an easy target, I have been successful against them flying a Bf 109 G-2 with a single 20mm cannon. They can be very difficult to keep up with due to her twin engines but I will say that I personally respect the spits and 51's more in combat. 38's are a target magnet for me when I see them online. However, it is still a beautiful plane to look at and admire, before one turns it into a scrape pile. LOL, I hope the 38 lovers don't give me too much grief !

HayateAce
12-16-2004, 04:31 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gustavflyer:
The 38 can be an easy target, I have been successful against them flying a Bf 109 G-2 with a single 20mm cannon. They can be very difficult to keep up with due to her twin engines but I will say that I personally respect the spits and 51's more in combat. 38's are a target magnet for me when I see them online. However, it is still a beautiful plane to look at and admire, before one turns it into a scrape pile. LOL, I hope the 38 lovers don't give me too much grief ! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not at all. Enjoy the score padding while it's available. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

"Patch" up the gun shake and false low-altitude compressibility and she's about ready to rock. Should a P38 be able to 1 v 1 109s and win? Probably not. Should the best P38 drivers be able to at least put a scare into average 109ers and kill a few? Yes.

At the moment you can only run. A big part of this is that you cannot access the nice zoom climb of the P38 due again to the false low alt compressibility.

Bull_dog_
12-16-2004, 05:53 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by HayateAce:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gustavflyer:
The 38 can be an easy target, I have been successful against them flying a Bf 109 G-2 with a single 20mm cannon. They can be very difficult to keep up with due to her twin engines but I will say that I personally respect the spits and 51's more in combat. 38's are a target magnet for me when I see them online. However, it is still a beautiful plane to look at and admire, before one turns it into a scrape pile. LOL, I hope the 38 lovers don't give me too much grief ! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not at all. Enjoy the score padding while it's available. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

"Patch" up the gun shake and false low-altitude compressibility and she's about ready to rock. Should a P38 be able to 1 v 1 109s and win? Probably not. Should the best P38 drivers be able to at least put a scare into average 109ers and kill a few? Yes.

At the moment you can only run. A big part of this is that you cannot access the nice zoom climb of the P38 due again to the false low alt compressibility. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, I'd expect any aircraft that had a good kill to death ratio to be able to hold its own 1 on 1.

When I say that, I don't necessarily mean killing the opponent every time, but when fighting to the aircraft's strength it should win if the enemy allows this or at least cause the enemy to disengage if he chooses to not follow.

The P-38 along with several other aircraft fit this description in real life. I would not say this is so in game as this aircraft, particularly the L model, has no tactically significant advantages and the J is severely limited due to elevator authority and poor compressibility modelling.

Try flying around at 8000 meters or so and you may also notice that the aircraft loses its lift above about 7000 ft. This means that you have to actually trim above the default trim setting for max climb to get it to fly level. You will find that it has the worst turning circle as well at that altitude. These things make me believe that the Lightning just hasn't been seriously adjusted. The issues of water injection, compressibility, elevator authority, and high altitude lift fall off make me think that Oleg just hasn't spent any significant time trying to make it right. At this time, I refuse to believe that Oleg actually thinks it is a historical representation of the actual aircraft....right?

VF-29_Sandman
12-16-2004, 06:22 PM
i'll 2nd that. only in the 38 will the guns transmit recoil to the stick so bad it'll shake the pilot like a palm frond in a hurricane. no wing gun mounted plane will do this, especially not with 30mm guns.
what the zero could do, the 38 could do; only the zero had the capability to pull it off much faster than the 38. the way it is right now, it's about as bad, if not worse than the 1.0-2.04 jug.
oleg obviously has been putting an all out search for data on the japanese planes. why cant he do the same thing with data direct from lockheed, its testers, and fine tune it with what was actually proven in combat.
i'm not sayin the bird will be able to outturn a zero that's at the zero's corner speed, but it should have better level speed, much better climb rates, and better acceleration. right now, all the zekes can basically outdive all the iron the states had in the pacific with ease...they still havent fixed the fact that the '40/'41 zero's couldnt hang with the wild/hellcat and corsairs in dives. only a suicidal marine would try to turn with a zeke.

XyZspineZyX
12-16-2004, 08:09 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by VFA-195 Snacky:
Why does the P38 get passed up in these patches? Can they fix the Torque issue and when? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

WHAT torque issue?

berg417448
12-16-2004, 08:12 PM
P-38 Propellers rotate in opposite directions--should offset torque

VF-29_Sandman
12-16-2004, 08:49 PM
obviously, u havent flown this crate or u'd know what we're talkin about

HayateAce
12-16-2004, 09:07 PM
Bull_dog

Maybe it is as simple as Oleg 1C not spending any time with it. I'd bet a few bucks that if nobody had said anything, we'd still be stuck with the original Slug Jug.

I have no aircraft library to speak of. Anyone care to get organized here and get some material together for Oleg? I know Leadspitter has posted up a few things, but maybe we need an offical spokesperson to spearhead the emails to Oleg to get the FTD where it outta be.

I can at least record some tracks of the gun shake problem. Small contribution, but better than nothing. Anyone else have some technical data/charts to address the low alt compressibility issue and bad high speed control problem?

Not to join the "sky is falling" crowd that seems to be building on the forums, but I do think we are down to 1 or at the most 2 more patches till the series will halt development. Better get these US aircraft squared away soon.

XyZspineZyX
12-16-2004, 09:14 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by VF-29_Sandman:
obviously, u havent flown this crate or u'd know what we're talkin about <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have flown it and I detect no torquing.

I don't mean to claim it is not there, it's just that I see no problems with the aircraft along these lines. Full power at low speed or on take-off produce none of the yawing force that torque is normally associated with, so as far as I can tell, the counter-rotating props are reasonably well accounted for in the game.

Please, for the sake of rational, reasoned discussion, expound on precisely what adverse effects result from this "torque" in the game.

Bull_dog_
12-16-2004, 09:24 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by HayateAce:
Bull_dog

Maybe it is as simple as Oleg 1C not spending any time with it. I'd bet a few bucks that if nobody had said anything, we'd still be stuck with the original Slug Jug.

I have no aircraft library to speak of. Anyone care to get organized here and get some material together for Oleg? I know Leadspitter has posted up a few things, but maybe we need an offical spokesperson to spearhead the emails to Oleg to get the FTD where it outta be.

I can at least record some tracks of the gun shake problem. Small contribution, but better than nothing. Anyone else have some technical data/charts to address the low alt compressibility issue and bad high speed control problem?

Not to join the "sky is falling" crowd that seems to be building on the forums, but I do think we are down to 1 or at the most 2 more patches till the series will halt development. Better get these US aircraft squared away soon. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree Hayate about the Jug being fixed because of the hub-bub. My intention is to keep this up as long as it takes until we get a response from someone either in word or deed that moves the lightning towards historical accuracy.

I posted some stuff a while back from the pages of flight journal about compressibility and some words from a P-38 pilot describing his high speed dive on Zeroes over New Guinea...I guess what I'm saying is that if the problem is Oleg hasn't taken the time to fix it...then facts alone won't necessarily change anything...but understand that I'm speculating. And I do so only because the FM is sooo bad. I could be wrong and it could be that Oleg really thinks the Lightning did nothing but drop bombs and then auger into the earth afterwards from compressibility at 5000ft. Its really not hard to read how compressibility was a high altitude phenomenon and that many aircraft suffered from it and most late war aircraft including Thunderbolts and Bearcats received dive breaks...the current modelling of elevator authority and compressibility makes the lightning useless in B&Z which was its main tactic in the Pacific and over Europe it could turn with and depending on circumstances, often out turn Messers and Fw's....but you already knew that.

At those who think there is a torque problem...go to the new wonder woman view and notice the smaller circle and where it is...most aircraft while in level flight, it is off to one side or the other...now trim your rudder and you can center it. It is off to the side due to torque induced yaw. Now check the Lightning, you'll find that it is not in the center, but in a rather odd place...not sure what this means, but I know it isn't right.

As far as torque modelling, one other positive aspect about the lightning vs. other single engined aircraft in real life that isn't modelled...the pilot had to regularly trim the rudder as speed changed because the yaw of the aircraft created from torque caused the aircraft to shoot its weapons off center from the gunsight unless the aircraft was properly trimmed. The lightning didn't have that problem because of no torque which made gunnery a much simpler and less conscious act....interesting I thought!

Stiglr
12-16-2004, 11:50 PM
I'm sorry, but this sim doesn't know from torque.

Far as I can see, its only effect is an eye candy "wing dip" when you flip the engine on.

It's non-existant on takeoff rolls, it's almost non-existant in flight, too. Ever had a plane almost get away from you because you advanced the throttle too fast during a cruise flight? Nope. I believe it's a factor in creating those "Oleg Banana Peel Snapstalls" in certain planes, but there it's simply a part of that particular 'canned' phenomenon, rather than an effect throughout the flight model (my opinion).

Bf109 pilots were known for "walking in circles to the right" by other planes' pilots because they always had to factor in some right rudder when in flight. I've never had to do this in this sim, and I've flown the 109s extensively here.

I will admit not being an expert on -38s, but I would have to imagine that the so-called "torque" problem is pretty much imagined, because it isn't there for other planes in the sim, either.

ImpStarDuece
12-17-2004, 12:16 AM
I took the p-38J up against some light opposition (YAk-3p and La-7s but these guys were pretty new to the sim) in a 2.04 server a few nights ago.

My impression was that if you stuck to horizonal tactics, kept your climb and speed up and refused to turn in the horizontal plane.

I am normally a fan of planes with wing mounted guns (B-239, Hurri IIb and P-47) so the most trouble i had was adjusting my aim.

I found the P-38 retains its E much better than the Jug (*sob*), climbs exceptionally well, accelerates nicely and has good firepower (when its on target). Slow speed handeling at the top of a climb i way more forgiving than a single engined bird.

The concrete elevator response and compressability problems were pretty apparent over 600 TAS but below 500 it turned EXCEPTIONALLY well. IF you can fly well in it and NOT get into a turning furball then I see no reason why it shouldn't do well online.

If you fly it like a biplane, expect to die. If you fly it like a Jug, expect to meet the ground at speed. Its a pretty unique bird in the sim and needs understanding and respect from both its pilots and enemies.

civildog
12-17-2004, 12:47 AM
I like the Lightning's firepower and speed, but I hate it's poor visibility. Having all the guns in the nose also means your effective convergence is much longer than you think. And nothing, I mean NOTHING survives a 1-2 second burst from a P-38 at a convergence of 200m or less.

I also find aiming nose guns easier than wing guns. It seems like most of my rounds in wing guns just bracket the target 'cuz he won't stay still. But nose guns always hit like lasers.

I like that a lot. But you're right about dives, BnZ is brutally unforgiving. Lockheed's manual warned pilots in Europe not to start a steep dive with less than 10,000 feet altitude or you might not pull out in time.

WOLFMondo
12-17-2004, 02:24 AM
The visibility is a mixture though, forward visibility is one of the best around. I like flying it for that reason although I wonder if real life pilots ever felt exposed?

civildog
12-17-2004, 02:44 AM
Yeah, I acutally like the good forward visibility. But the bad guy's always seem to come from the sides and rear, and that's were the vis sucks.

But I guess keeping the enemy in front is the key to success!

Aaron_GT
12-17-2004, 12:19 PM
Stiglr wrote:
"It's non-existant on takeoff rolls,"

It was very strong in the original IL2 demo on the P39 (plus the weather was bad in the demo, so lots of crosswind). It was a challenge to get the P39 off the deck, much like the P40 in Targetware. Why things were changed I don't know.

HayateAce
12-17-2004, 04:23 PM
I do not see the torque either. The P38J, at least, can zoom to the top of its climb, hang from its props to as slow as 100kph and kick the rudders for a perfect hammer head.

civildog
12-18-2004, 12:15 AM
HayateAce:

The 38 didn't suffer from torque like single engine aircraft because it had counter-rotating props.

XyZspineZyX
12-18-2004, 01:58 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by CivilDog:
The 38 didn't suffer from torque like single engine aircraft because it had counter-rotating props. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sigh. Pay attention to the discussion please. Otherwise if you don't and then you just chime in, you might make yourself look foolish like... well, uh, like you just did.

OldMan____
12-18-2004, 02:29 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Stiglr:
I'm sorry, but this sim doesn't _know_ from torque.

Far as I can see, its only effect is an eye candy "wing dip" when you flip the engine on.

It's non-existant on takeoff rolls, it's almost non-existant in flight, too. Ever had a plane almost get away from you because you advanced the throttle too fast during a cruise flight? Nope. I believe it's a factor in creating those "Oleg Banana Peel Snapstalls" in certain planes, but there it's simply a part of that particular 'canned' phenomenon, rather than an effect throughout the flight model (my opinion).

Bf109 pilots were known for "walking in circles to the right" by other planes' pilots because they always had to factor in some right rudder when in flight. I've never had to do this in this sim, and I've flown the 109s extensively here.

I will admit not being an expert on -38s, but I would have to imagine that the so-called "torque" problem is pretty much imagined, because it isn't there for other planes in the sim, either. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

try taking off in a Anton with manual pitch.. push too much power too fast and your wing will hit ground. Same happens when at very slow speed.


109 may fly very well without using the constant rudder.. but you do have some better turning (specially E bleed) with you use it constanlty to center the little ball (MUCH more pronounced than in 190)

MystiqBlackCat
02-01-2005, 12:22 PM
I found a nice section in a book Forked-Tailed Devil, about compressability issues and how Lockheed eventually found the solution in the dive flaps. Its a bit long but it defintely helped me understand the problem of compressability better.

"Visualize a P-38 at high altitude starting into a dive. The pilot eases forward on the yoke, bringing the nose below the horizon. Now as the airplane picks up speed he continues his forward pressure, adjusting his trim in pitch, and increasin power until he's at full throttle. The heavyP-38 accelerates slowly but with conviction, and in very short order it's racing hell-bent for the earth far below.
Now the P-38 reaches about 36,000 feet. It has dropped nearly a mile from the point of starting the dive. Its speed is measured in MAch numbers (Mach 1 is the speed of sound at any particular altitude), and at MAch 0.675 (shich is about 445 mph true airspeed at 36,000 feet) "Something" happens to the wing. The air accelerated across the upper surface of the wing is now mocing so fast that some of the air has reached Mach 1. The air, in other words, is now moving at the speed of sound or has exceeded the point of MAch 1. Supersonic speed means shock waves, and this is exactly what happens on the wing. The supersonic flow is a shock wave, and that also means breaking up the normal flow of air... loss of lift.
...something else then happens. As the lift decreases the airflow moving back from the wings also changes its form and pattern. The normal downwash aft of the wing toward the tail begins to deteriorate. The airflow across the tail shifts from normal to a condition where there is now a greater upload or lifting force, on the tail itself. ...with greater tail force applied to the tail the P-38 wants to nose down even more, the steeper the divce, the faster it dives, and the faster it dives the steeper it dives.
The solution lay in understanding that the sped of sound changes with altitude. At sea level on a standrad day (59 degrees Fahrenheit) the speed of sound is about 764mph. On that same day, at 36,000 feet... the speed of sound may only be 660 mph.
The airplane moving at 540mph at 10k feet isnt that close to the mach zone. The airplane still flies at 540mph, but the speed of sound has increased greatly... the shock waves disappeared from the wings.(at low altitudes)

When the flaps went down they dammed the air flowing beneath the wing. At high speeds this amounts to a tremendous force-the damming effect pushes more air down from the wing, and thereby increases the lift of the wing. The wing generates more lift without increaseing the lift produced by the horizontal tail assembly- and the airplane is able to pull out from its dive."

AFJ_Locust
02-01-2005, 02:26 PM
Personaly I think the 38 is lacking in a few departments

Dive seperation being the worst and agility at slow speed

altho in WC server over 3/4 of the germans that start on my six end up in my gunsight mainly because of the airbrake once there in the gunsight theres no escaping unless its a dora http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

If you fly it alot, use E and dont get into big furballs ull be fine