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View Full Version : Assassins creed.... Without Those Who Came Before. *SPOILERS



GsosolidNavy
11-19-2011, 08:50 AM
Before I start, I love the TWCB story line, and I love the Desmond story too.

Many of my friends and I were arguing the other day about AC. Their point was "Assassins Creed would have been a perfectly fine game, a whole lot a better game too, if the 'alien' story line wasn't there. The Ezio/Altair storylines are much better than the Desmond one. And if the Desmond one had to be there, it would be better off without TWCB"
(Aliens=TWCB)

I thought about it, and honestly, the game actually would be fine with just the Templar vs Assassin story line, and I'm sure it would let itself appeal to a lot more people too. But what do you think? Would AC be better without it? Worse? Would it even work without it? (Obviously some things would be changed, but would the concept of AC still work) And does it actually make the game slightly worse than it would be if it was just Assassins vs Templars?

LightRey
11-19-2011, 08:57 AM
I would just like to say that TWCB were not aliens (as should be abundandly clear from ACR). They simply came before. As much as I would agree that the AC games would still have been great games without TWCB, I'm of the opinion that the TWCB parts add a sense of both mystery and "epicosity" to the story. It gives the feeling that everything is part of this this "master plan".

Radman500
11-19-2011, 10:53 AM
Assassins thrives on its mixture of "Sci-Fi/Historical genres"

The Game is built around the Animus, and is centered around Desmond..

if it was just a pure historical type game, with no sci-fi aspects. then it wouldn't work well since the sequels wouldn't work well, unless we just played as Altair

Ac1-Ac2.. jumping from altair to ezio made sense because of the whole desmond, animus thing

now picture none of the sci-fi aspects (no animus, no desmond) and we jumped from Ac1- to AC2, altair to ezio, it wouldn't make sense, we just magically jump 300 years into the future and play as some italian playboy... The animus connects the story so we can have the different ancestors and different landscapes, without it, it just wouldn't work

LightRey
11-19-2011, 10:55 AM
Originally posted by Radman500:
Assassins thrives on its mixture of "Sci-Fi/Historical genres"

The Game is built around the Animus, and is centered around Desmond..

if it was just a pure historical type game, with no sci-fi aspects. then it wouldn't work well since the sequels wouldn't work well, unless we just played as Altair

Ac1-Ac2.. jumping from altair to ezio made sense because of the whole desmond, animus thing

now picture none of the sci-fi aspects (no animus, no desmond) and we jumped from Ac1- to AC2, altair to ezio, it wouldn't make sense, we just magically jump 300 years into the future and play as some italian playboy... The animus connects the story so we can have the different ancestors and different landscapes, without it, it just wouldn't work
Very true. Without Alta´r's Codex, the "decoy" PoE and Desmond, there'd be nothing to connect him to Ezio.

Ichthys91
11-19-2011, 01:56 PM
Originally posted by LightRey:
Very true. Without Alta´r's Codex, the "decoy" PoE and Desmond, there'd be nothing to connect him to Ezio.

Actually, there is. The Assassin Order itself.

LightRey
11-19-2011, 02:00 PM
Originally posted by Ichthys91:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LightRey:
Very true. Without Alta´r's Codex, the "decoy" PoE and Desmond, there'd be nothing to connect him to Ezio.

Actually, there is. The Assassin Order itself. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
In that case you could just as well say that both of them being human connects them.

You want a unique connection. Something that makes them specifically connected. Else any member of the order would've done.

Assassin_M
11-19-2011, 02:08 PM
lightrey
In that case you could just as well say that both of them being human connects them.

You want a unique connection. Something that makes them specifically connected. Else any member of the order would've done.
^this

Il_Divo
11-19-2011, 06:32 PM
That's an interesting question.

I certainly think that Ubisoft could have easily begun this franchise without the science fiction story. They would be limited to only the Altair and Ezio characters, but that alone would have been more than enough to supply the plot.I'm actually curious, in designing this series, what made them decide to do the science fiction framed narrative, rather than keep the setting restricted to the Third Crusade/Renaissance.

I however don't mind the Desmond/science fiction story-line. In AC1 and most of AC2, I thought it was very well-done. I do however agree with your friends that much about Those Who Came Before felt like right out of left field. The first two games build up this Templar-Assassin conflict, and suddenly they spring this storyline on us involving a solar flare potentially destroying the planet.

In a huge way, it diverts focus from what (at first) seemed to be the primary conflict (Templars vs. Assassins). I don't think TWCB are the problem, as they could have kept most of the lore there, but I didn't understand the point of the solar flare/world going to end plotline.

GsosolidNavy
11-19-2011, 06:34 PM
I didn't call them aliens, I was just quoting my friends.

And the PoE could always be replaced with something more normal... A key, which Altair hid, Ezio found, hid again, and so on. I know that's a really bad example, but I'm sure you see my point.
Also, HALF the reason we play as Ezio is to train Desmond to become an assassin anyway

Il_Divo
11-19-2011, 06:51 PM
Originally posted by LightRey:

Very true. Without Alta´r's Codex, the "decoy" PoE and Desmond, there'd be nothing to connect
him to Ezio.

Keep in mind that, depending on how Ubisoft wanted to continue the series, they wouldn't have to make a necessary connection between Ezio and Altair.

They could simply have kept the series limited to a Templar vs. Assassin conflict, where we play as assassins in various historical periods. It would be a very different style and we'd lose the framed narrative, but it's easily an approach they could have taken.

Radman500
11-19-2011, 06:55 PM
Originally posted by Il_Divo:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LightRey:

Very true. Without Alta´r's Codex, the "decoy" PoE and Desmond, there'd be nothing to connect
him to Ezio.

Keep in mind that, depending on how Ubisoft wanted to continue the series, they wouldn't have to make a necessary connection between Ezio and Altair.

They could simply have kept the series limited to a Templar vs. Assassin conflict, where we play as assassins in various historical periods. It would be a very different style and we'd lose the framed narrative, but it's easily an approach they could have taken. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

but knowing how great the storyline is now, i wouldn't want to go back and have it be a 100 pure historical game

Il_Divo
11-19-2011, 06:59 PM
Originally posted by Radman500:

but knowing how great the storyline is now, i wouldn't want to go back and have it be a 100 pure historical game

You don't have to want it. I wouldn't really like that either, knowing the "whole story". My point is just that we don't need there to be a necessary connection between Ezio and Altair. Their stories could be entirely independent, linked only by their roles in the Templar-Assassin conflict.

Radman500
11-19-2011, 07:01 PM
Originally posted by Il_Divo:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Radman500:

but knowing how great the storyline is now, i wouldn't want to go back and have it be a 100 pure historical game

You don't have to want it. I wouldn't really like that either, knowing the "whole story". My point is just that we don't need there to be a necessary connection between Ezio and Altair. Their stories could be entirely independent, linked only by their roles in the Templar-Assassin conflict. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

that would get boring, there are so many "group a vs. group b" video games, it gets pretty annoying,

the end of the world/POE/TWCB is something fresh and new and has never been done before, or scarcely been done before...

i would honestly say i would get bored if it was just "templar vs. assassins"

GsosolidNavy
11-19-2011, 07:01 PM
The thing that I'd have to agree with is, why waste time fighting the templars, when it might all go to no use anyway if the solar flare kills everyone? Shouldn't their 100% attention be on stopping that solar flare?

Unless of course it's been stated that they need to use the PoE's for that. Has it been?

Il_Divo
11-19-2011, 07:07 PM
Originally posted by Radman500:

that would get boring, there are so many "group a vs. group b" video games, it gets pretty annoying,

the end of the world/POE/TWCB is something fresh and new and has never been done before, or scarcely been done before...

i would honestly say i would get bored if it was just "templar vs. assassins"

It really all depends on the presentation.

AC1 was pretty much Templars vs. Assassins and I'd argue that it had the best writing, plot, and presentation out of the entire series.

One problem is that the storyline starts getting odd anytime the TWCB get involved because it leads the plot points come from strange areas (Ex: Juno and Lucy in Brotherhood). I like the idea of TWCB creating a civilization, making the Pieces of Eden, allowing for Eagle Vision. But I thought the solar flare has taken the story in a very unnecessary direction. And not necessarily for the better, since the Templar-Assassin conflict was mainly one of ideology, compared to Armageddon.

Radman500
11-19-2011, 07:11 PM
Originally posted by Il_Divo:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Radman500:

that would get boring, there are so many "group a vs. group b" video games, it gets pretty annoying,

the end of the world/POE/TWCB is something fresh and new and has never been done before, or scarcely been done before...

i would honestly say i would get bored if it was just "templar vs. assassins"

It really all depends on the presentation.

AC1 was pretty much Templars vs. Assassins and I'd argue that it had the best writing, plot, and presentation out of the entire series.

One problem is that the storyline starts getting odd anytime the TWCB get involved because it leads the plot points come from strange areas (Ex: Juno and Lucy in Brotherhood). I like the idea of TWCB creating a civilization, making the Pieces of Eden, allowing for Eagle Vision. But I thought the solar flare has taken the story in a very unnecessary direction. And not necessarily for the better, since the Templar-Assassin conflict was mainly one of ideology, compared to Armageddon. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

im sure ubisoft had the whole storyline planned out before AC1... POE, TWCB etc......

the solar flair adds something new to the plot, fresh, new, innovative, not seen before

"templars vs. assassins" again is simply "group a vs. group b" stale and boring

Il_Divo
11-19-2011, 07:13 PM
Originally posted by Radman500:

the solar flair adds something new to the plot, fresh, new, innovative, not seen before

"templars vs. assassins" again is simply "group a vs. group b" stale and boring

Are you honestly telling me that End of the World by a comet, or some other disaster, has never been done before?

Radman500
11-19-2011, 07:14 PM
Originally posted by Il_Divo:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Radman500:

the solar flair adds something new to the plot, fresh, new, innovative, not seen before

"templars vs. assassins" again is simply "group a vs. group b" stale and boring

Are you honestly telling me that End of the World by a comet, or some other disaster, has never been done before? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

not in a video game....

"group a vs. group b" though, yes many games

Il_Divo
11-19-2011, 07:17 PM
Originally posted by Radman500:

not in a video game....

"group a vs. group b" though, yes many games

Not in a video game? I highly doubt that.

But you already concede that it's been done in a million other stories across films, novels, whatever, which doesn't make it an original story.

I'll also point out that original doesn't mean good, by necessity.

Radman500
11-19-2011, 07:19 PM
Originally posted by Il_Divo:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Radman500:

not in a video game....

"group a vs. group b" though, yes many games

Not in a video game? I highly doubt that.

But you already concede that it's been done in a million other stories across films, novels, whatever, which doesn't make it an original story.

I'll also point out that original doesn't mean good, by necessity. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

its alot more rare when it comes to the "group a vs. group b" concept

Il_Divo
11-19-2011, 07:22 PM
Double post.

Il_Divo
11-19-2011, 07:22 PM
Originally posted by Radman500:

its alot more rare when it comes to the "group a vs. group b" concept

Which still doesn't make it good. Saving the world has been done a million times already. What's so unique about natural disaster being less common in games, particularly when it's not handled with the best story-telling?

Radman500
11-19-2011, 07:29 PM
Originally posted by Il_Divo:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Radman500:

its alot more rare when it comes to the "group a vs. group b" concept

Which still doesn't make it good. Saving the world has been done a million times already. What's so unique about natural disaster being less common in games, particularly when it's not handled with the best story-telling? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

saving the world has been done a million times already?...

not in the sense of a solar flare....


and like i said what is so unique about "group a vs. group b"

Il_Divo
11-19-2011, 07:37 PM
Originally posted by Radman500:

saving the world has been done a million times already?...

not in the sense of a solar flare....

But in the context of meteors hitting the Earth, the Core of the Earth exploding, Tsunamis, aliens invading, and a million other plausible/implausible ideas. What does a solar flare, by virtue of being a solar flare, add to the storyline which no other story has done before? Telling me "it's a solar flare" doesn't tell me "it's a good story".



and like i said what is so unique about "group a vs. group b"

It's not. And that's my point. A story doesn't need to be original to be good. How many iterations of the Hero's Journey have existed since the Odyssey? It's not about being unique, it's about effective presentation.

Likewise, even if I gave you that the solar flare were original (which it isn't in any significant context), that doesn't tell us that AC's story is better off for it. Good story-telling really isn't dependent on originality with respect to events.

Radman500
11-19-2011, 07:49 PM
Originally posted by Il_Divo:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Radman500:

saving the world has been done a million times already?...

not in the sense of a solar flare....

But in the context of meteors hitting the Earth, the Core of the Earth exploding, Tsunamis, aliens invading, and a million other plausible/implausible ideas. What does a solar flare, by virtue of being a solar flare, add to the storyline which no other story has done before? Telling me "it's a solar flare" doesn't tell me "it's a good story".



and like i said what is so unique about "group a vs. group b"

It's not. And that's my point. A story doesn't need to be original to be good. How many iterations of the Hero's Journey have existed since the Odyssey? It's not about being unique, it's about effective presentation.

Likewise, even if I gave you that the solar flare were original (which it isn't in any significant context), that doesn't tell us that AC's story is better off for it. Good story-telling really isn't dependent on originality with respect to events. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

and you have no proof that it would be better storywise without the sci-fi stuff

you know what were going no where arguing opinions, lets just end it right now

you got your opinion, i got mine

iN3krO
11-19-2011, 07:57 PM
Originally posted by Radman500:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Il_Divo:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Radman500:

but knowing how great the storyline is now, i wouldn't want to go back and have it be a 100 pure historical game

You don't have to want it. I wouldn't really like that either, knowing the "whole story". My point is just that we don't need there to be a necessary connection between Ezio and Altair. Their stories could be entirely independent, linked only by their roles in the Templar-Assassin conflict. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

that would get boring, there are so many "group a vs. group b" video games, it gets pretty annoying,

the end of the world/POE/TWCB is something fresh and new and has never been done before, or scarcely been done before...

i would honestly say i would get bored if it was just "templar vs. assassins" </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

As i'm bored of smashing buttons when i get to a fight -.-''

I can't say i'm getting bored of these scripted missions storyline but it's also true it's a copy/paste of other games (GTA, RDR, etc, etc)...

iN3krO
11-19-2011, 08:01 PM
Originally posted by Il_Divo:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Radman500:

saving the world has been done a million times already?...

not in the sense of a solar flare....

But in the context of meteors hitting the Earth, the Core of the Earth exploding, Tsunamis, aliens invading, and a million other plausible/implausible ideas. What does a solar flare, by virtue of being a solar flare, add to the storyline which no other story has done before? Telling me "it's a solar flare" doesn't tell me "it's a good story".
. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

but how they developed first the assassins vs templars war and then, before ppl got bored of that war they introduced TWCB and the solar thing, and now we have it they introduce a TWCB that murder the girl u are in love for makes it a good story...

If it was always assassin's vs templars and assasin's always winning without any kind of explanation would get bored after a while (and the eagle vision would have no point).

When i finished ac1 i just wanted to know what would happen to desmond after he goes to the bed, i didn't give **** about altair, his story had finished in that game....

Sarari
11-19-2011, 08:08 PM
I, to be honest, think that the series took a wrong turn after AC1. I think they should've stuck to the whole TWCB story but they shouldn't have over done it. Like right now, a lot of my friends stopped playing it after AC2 because the story got way to complicated.

If you think about it, it really is overdone in some boundaries.

In my opinion, I think they should've done this:
AC1
AC1-some sort of sequel of when he's a little older, and some repressed memories.

and maybe one more sequel to AC1. But I think the way AC1 was laid out with the whole TWCB and assassin vs templar conspiracy was great. AC1 made you think a lot about whether the templars were actually good guys or bad guys. Or that the assassins were good guys or bad.

Also, I think they should've expanded on Altair's story earlier, and still keep the whole sacredness of him as he gets older. I don't like the whole Ezio character myself. I'm more of a person who likes mysterious people, especially with assassins.

Il_Divo
11-19-2011, 08:23 PM
Originally posted by daniel_gervide:

but how they developed first the assassins vs templars war and then, before ppl got bored of that war they introduced TWCB and the solar thing, and now we have it they introduce a TWCB that murder the girl u are in love for makes it a good story...

Not when the story provides zero explanation to for the context of that death. Take The Dark Knight, as an example. Rachel dies, and it torments Batman, but we can clearly see how and why she died (murdered by the Joker). And it also fuels the development of Harvey Dent as the Two-Face villain.

Lucy? Well, maybe they'll explain it in AC3, but as shown I have no idea what the hell was going on with her, or why Juno killed her.

To put it another way, killing the protagonist's love interest is not good story-telling if it it's not done properly. In this case, Juno is (apparently) on Desmond's side, but forced him to kill his love-interest without any discernable cause.



If it was always assassin's vs templars and assasin's always winning without any kind of explanation would get bored after a while (and the eagle vision would have no point).

Does it always have to be assassins winning? Let's consider Star Wars. Episode V follows the story of Luke Skywalker, but most would dispute that the rebels "win" that particular film.

That Assassin's Creed could follow various ancestors through history doesn't mean that they must constantly have the upper hand. In fact, I prefer stories that don't always end with the protagonists clearly having the upper hand.

GsosolidNavy
11-20-2011, 05:46 AM
I wonder HOW Desmond will stop a SOLAR flare? I mean... How does someone contain the sun? :s What could they possibly do? Honestly, they should have not taken the direction of a solar flare. TWCB, Templars, and Assassins, that was enough.

Sarari
11-20-2011, 07:46 AM
As I said earlier in this post, they should have kept it the way it was in AC1. It was perfect, but now they're overdoing it.

I like the mysteriousness about the story that AC2 had to provide. It was cool.

freddie_1897
11-20-2011, 12:02 PM
Originally posted by Il_Divo:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Radman500:

the solar flair adds something new to the plot, fresh, new, innovative, not seen before

"templars vs. assassins" again is simply "group a vs. group b" stale and boring

Are you honestly telling me that End of the World by a comet, or some other
disaster, has never been done before? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Please give an example of a game which has done this

Il_Divo
11-20-2011, 03:09 PM
Originally posted by freddie_1897:

Please give an example of a game which has done this

An end of the world plot? Look around. They're really all over the place.

Natural disaster does not suddenly place Assassin's Creed in some special sanctum of story-telling, when it's existed since its inception. This story has been seen before, over a million times in movies. It doesn't really matter how common it is to gaming, unless someone can demonstrate what makes it good story-telling.