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View Full Version : What Sucks About PC Joysticks And Ought to Change...



terriblysilly
09-21-2007, 09:24 AM
...is that they're all either generic "space age" styled, a la MSFFB, or they're styled after the real-life F-16 joystick.

Despite the fact that about half of all flight sims are based upon pre-1950's aeroplanes and jets, as far as I know there's not a SINGLE joystick that's been made to duplicate the look/feel of THOSE kinds of planes. I can look down in IL2 and see that in most older planes the joystick was more like a big lever sticking up out of the floor. So howcome nobody makes one like that? It would be awesome. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I don't fly any of the post-1950's flight sims, myself, so the effect of the F-16-styled joysticks (like my new CH Fighterstick) is completely lost on me; I just don't care.

Plus, if there were a joystick that was a big floor-mounted unit, I wouldn't have to do the monitor-and-keyboard shuffle everytime I want to find a place on my desk for my joystick. And I can imagine accuracy being boosted a fair bit by a controller system that had greater range and involved the shoulders more than present joysticks do.


so um they should make that http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif
but they dont http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Low_Flyer_MkVb
09-21-2007, 09:38 AM
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif


http://www.simcontrol.co.uk/Spitfire%20controls%20011.jpg

http://www.simcontrol.co.uk/offboard.htm

249th_Maico
09-21-2007, 09:40 AM
First let me say, you have a VERY good point. However, I for one am glad I dont have to hold the joy in the spitfire for three hours of playing... The U.S. planes have the knurled pistol grip witch you are better off wearing gloves with. Of course there is another aspect to consider here. I typically fly for four hours or more on a weekend. They usually are four hours of dogfighting. Fighter pilots of the war may have flown straight and level for a few hours but thier manuvering dogfights were often over in a few minutes. Therefore I like the convinience, ergos and comfort of a MSFFB. As a matter of fact, allmost anything else is uncomfortable. Then there is the question of button placement.
The real question is this: Is there a market for this gear? Will it sell? Saitek just released the Aviator. It looks a bit the part. If there was a good performance WWII styled force feedback stick out there that looked like a P-40 or Bf ect out there.... I cant say for sure I would spend the money. I like having all these buttons at my fingertips.

You should look into building yourself a cockpit. THAT is really the way to go.

Cajun76
09-21-2007, 09:46 AM
The point of having a HOTAS is to keep your hands on the controls instead of hunting and pecking the keyboard in combat. It's a compromise, like most things. An "authentic" WWII stick might only have 1-2 buttons and no hat, forcing you to use the keyboard and mouse for many simple tasks.

However, all is not lost, and they are folks with the same feelings as you.

Sim Pit Builder/Stick Modder Thread (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/49310655/m/3821084134/p/4)

rnzoli
09-21-2007, 09:53 AM
Originally posted by terriblysilly:
I can look down in IL2 and see that in most older planes the joystick was more like a big lever sticking up out of the floor. So howcome nobody makes one like that? It would be awesome. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

When I made a pre-calculation whether going into building my own stick would make sense, I actually covered that question.

Reason
#1 The height of transport costs would also be awsome http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif
#2 Average users could NOT put it anywhere http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif
#3 The remaining (low) sales would make the unit price quite high http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

I see lot of valid gripes about current joysticks, but blaming this on manufacturers is wrong. They produce sticks for the mainstream simmers flying modern aircraft mostly.

So if you are into the narrow segment of WW II-era control, you are either up to your own skills to make one, or you can actually hire someone to do one for you. No other way.

JimmyBlonde
09-21-2007, 10:09 AM
Originally posted by Low_Flyer_MkVb:
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif


http://www.simcontrol.co.uk/Spitfire%20controls%20011.jpg

http://www.simcontrol.co.uk/offboard.htm


Now that's what I'm talkin about!

terriblysilly
09-21-2007, 11:08 AM
Wow! Awesome links, re: Spitfire sim and cockpit builders.

I'm not good enough at flight sims yet to warrant my spending the $'s for either, however. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif I just got back into them after many years away, and I've lost completely my grasp of E-management and tactics. Every fight is just a circle-around-and-around affair, eventually the other player gets behind me and I'm dead. :P

Anyway, thanks so much for the links. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif I'll keep an eye on that stuff!

The Spitefire Sim looks like the coolest option, and I recently read an old CH Hangar forums poll where they asked users if they'd like CH to build one (it didn't win the poll, unfortunately). I hope CH will at some point though, because the Spitefire Sim with even only its basic options would be about 2500 dollars for me due to the unfavorable exchange rate, plus huge shipping costs as I live in the USA.

I have to admit that the first set of pictures in the cockpit-builders thread is pretty funny though, no offense to the poster...he's gone to all that trouble building such an awesome cockpit, but his monitor is a tiny little Compaq-type thing!

Urufu_Shinjiro
09-21-2007, 11:21 AM
Did you look at saiteks Av8or? http://saitek.com/uk/prod/av8r.htm

terriblysilly
09-21-2007, 11:27 AM
Yes, someone else posted about that too. I saw the link, and had I heard about the product BEFORE buying my CH Fighterstick and Pro Pedals, I might've gotten it instead.

At the same time, I kind of wonder how good a joystick that is only $35 could be...

danjama
09-21-2007, 12:46 PM
you lot seem to be reasoning that a ww2 era style stick wouldnt have loads of buttons so u wud be fiddling with the keys and mouse, but a perfect combo would be the style and feel of a ww2 stick, plus all the buttons/functions at ur fingertips. in other words a modernised ww2 stick. perfekt.

terriblysilly
09-21-2007, 01:04 PM
Yes, I agree!

Make a nice circular handle like the Spitfire Simulation, and in a small suspended panel in the center and along the left side of the grip itself put buttons that you can reach with your thumb. A great idea!

and also, it must be force-feedback... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Divine-Wind
09-21-2007, 02:10 PM
Originally posted by terriblysilly:
...is that they're all either generic "space age" styled, a la MSFFB, or they're styled after the real-life F-16 joystick.
Wohoa there, exactly what part of the MSFFB look 'Space Age.' You want to see space age look at Saitek's X52, heck all of their sticks in general.

Sokol__1
09-21-2007, 03:38 PM
terriblysilly


A one year ago - in french CheckSix forum - was opened a topic about the construction of "A true Warbids stick".

The final projetec, caled "Tarmac Aces" this almost soon, it involves a former-pilot of F-16 and an industrial man.

The first Warbids stick is ready to show in Mondial de la Simulation in Le Bourget, this week.

The famous Knüppelgriff KG-13B:

http://www.valiant-studio.eu/tarmac/index.php

Another grips planed:

F4U Corsair, Curtiss P36/P40 H75, JU87 Stuka, IL2, Yak 3/9, F6F-4, Mustang P51, Lagg 3/5, P47, ME 109, ME 110, ME 262, JU88, Heinkel 111, DO 335...

Sokol1

Lurch1962
09-21-2007, 04:26 PM
Until *everyone* has a fully interactive simpit, joysticks will have to incorporate the multitudinous buttons/hats that they have now. As a deskbound simmer, I for one will gladly sacrifice authenticity for versatility.

mortoma
09-21-2007, 08:03 PM
I'd rather use the keyboard personally. After years of using it I can type in any function as fast as I need to anyway. I have a very old joystick right now and am not looking forward to getting a newer one since it no doubt will be filled with those irritating hotas buttons.

mortoma
09-21-2007, 08:07 PM
Oh, I know what I can do! I can buy one of those newer ones with the irritating buttons from CH and just pull out the pots and use them in my old one.
Since the only reason I will eventually get one will be due to worn out pots. Or maybe CH will sell me just the replacement pots? Anyone know if they will do that?

M_Gunz
09-21-2007, 08:28 PM
No FFB.

Fireball_
09-21-2007, 08:34 PM
Originally posted by mortoma:
Or maybe CH will sell me just the replacement pots? Anyone know if they will do that?
http://www.chproducts.com/shop/parts.html

elephant_il2
09-22-2007, 06:04 AM
You can also check this out... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif
Especially if you fly mostly blue as I do... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif

Tarmac aces (http://www.valiant-studio.eu/tarmac/hangar.php)

PS I now realise how late I am Sokol_1 http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

Bearcat99
09-22-2007, 07:02 AM
Originally posted by terriblysilly:
Yes, I agree!

Make a nice circular handle like the Spitfire Simulation, and in a small suspended panel in the center and along the left side of the grip itself put buttons that you can reach with your thumb. A great idea!

and also, it must be force-feedback... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

I csn imsgine the issues with keeping a two fisted stick stable on onesdesk....


Originally posted by Lurch1962:
Until *everyone* has a fully interactive simpit, joysticks will have to incorporate the multitudinous buttons/hats that they have now. As a deskbound simmer, I for one will gladly sacrifice authenticity for versatility.

Exactly....

VW-IceFire
09-22-2007, 07:54 AM
Originally posted by Urufu_Shinjiro:
Did you look at saiteks Av8or? http://saitek.com/uk/prod/av8r.htm
Was just going to point that one out. That is a very nice looking stick for a pretty decent price from Saitek and its definitely got the retro feel going. Surprised more people aren't talking about that one in this thread.

SithSpeeder
09-22-2007, 09:04 AM
Originally posted by rnzoli:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by terriblysilly:
I can look down in IL2 and see that in most older planes the joystick was more like a big lever sticking up out of the floor. So howcome nobody makes one like that? It would be awesome. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

...you are either up to your own skills to make one, or you can actually hire someone to do one for you. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> And let me add that if you can hire rnzoli, that's the way to go (he has a fine specimen). http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif
See: http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/23110283/m/3791063134/p/1

http://web.axelero.hu/rnzoli/JoyBuild/Thumbs/6-Stick-alone.JPG

* _54th_Speeder *

blindpugh
09-22-2007, 10:01 AM
Originally posted by terriblysilly:
...is that they're all either generic "space age" styled, a la MSFFB, or they're styled after the real-life F-16 joystick.

Despite the fact that about half of all flight sims are based upon pre-1950's aeroplanes and jets, as far as I know there's not a SINGLE joystick that's been made to duplicate the look/feel of THOSE kinds of planes. I can look down in IL2 and see that in most older planes the joystick was more like a big lever sticking up out of the floor. So howcome nobody makes one like that? It would be awesome. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I don't fly any of the post-1950's flight sims, myself, so the effect of the F-16-styled joysticks (like my new CH Fighterstick) is completely lost on me; I just don't care.

Plus, if there were a joystick that was a big floor-mounted unit, I wouldn't have to do the monitor-and-keyboard shuffle everytime I want to find a place on my desk for my joystick. And I can imagine accuracy being boosted a fair bit by a controller system that had greater range and involved the shoulders more than present joysticks do.


so um they should make that http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif
but they dont http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif make your own not too difficult -some guys do a real good job.

x6BL_Brando
09-22-2007, 10:03 AM
I have an open plan pit that puts the stick central just above my knees, and puts the pedals on an angled plate. It may not be authentic but it's certainly ergonomically correct http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
I've had the Fighterstick so long that I don't need to look at it - useful 'cos I fly mostly after nightfall. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

B

Taylortony
09-22-2007, 02:40 PM
basically we are looking at turning motion into wigglies......... give me time, a milling machine and a lathe and I could make it rock http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

shame I have just been made redundant as company is closing, but never fear, new job is already sorted.............. what i now lack is the facilities i have nurtured over the years http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/bigtears.gif

rnzoli
09-23-2007, 02:15 AM
Originally posted by SithSpeeder:
And let me add that if you can hire rnzoli, that's the way to go (he has a fine specimen).
LOL, I wasn't trying to hint at hiring me http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif I am already over the allowed time-quota at home spent with this.

Nevertheless, we were thinking with a colleague of mine, to rent a small space in a busy sh
opping mall, and set up a "dogfight club" there, with 2 self-constructed virtual cockpits, and other high-end goodies (stronger FFB motors for the seat shaking, throttle quadrants, 3 displays, fast network connections for multiplay, possibilty to run different flight sims, civilian or combat).

The cost of setting up one virtual cockpit is too high, but if we could share the thing with other sim addicts, this could turn out to be a moderately profitable enterprise as well.


@Taylortony: very sad about your forced change of jobs, but I hope the new one will be still connected to aviation and we will see some nice "56K warning" pictures from you in the future as well http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

zardozid
09-23-2007, 04:08 AM
One thing that I have often thought about is that WW2 fighter sticks topped out at knee level...pilots would rest their arm on their thigh as they flew (and would slam the stick left and right between their legs)...psychologically speaking (in an immersive sense) this is quite different then having your joystick handle at chest or stomach level. With the joystick handle knee level your focus (center awareness) is much lower into the virtual fighter then when your guiding your velocity vector from mid-body...

follow me???

han freak solo
09-23-2007, 11:20 AM
Originally posted by Low_Flyer_MkVb:
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif


http://www.simcontrol.co.uk/Spitfire%20controls%20011.jpg

http://www.simcontrol.co.uk/offboard.htm

Only 981 pounds before options are added. Where's my wallet? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

TX-EcoDragon
09-23-2007, 04:41 PM
Originally posted by zardozid:
One thing that I have often thought about is that WW2 fighter sticks topped out at knee level...pilots would rest their arm on their thigh as they flew (and would slam the stick left and right between their legs)...psychologically speaking (in an immersive sense) this is quite different then having your joystick handle at chest or stomach level. With the joystick handle knee level your focus (center awareness) is much lower into the virtual fighter then when your guiding your velocity vector from mid-body...

follow me???

Sukhoi 26/29/31 type aircraft have the stick up near the plane of your chest (and reclined seats add to this feeling). . .and yeah, it's a different feeling than the lower placed grips. I for one like (or maybe am simply used to) the lower grip, but there does seem to be an added degree of precision that you get from the biomechanics of the higher stick placement.

The side stick center stick thing is interesting. I've flown a few different types of aircraft with sidesticks, and they feel pretty natural, but when the maneuvering gets more spirited I much prefer the center stick. . .and yet when I'm using a joystick I just can't stand it in the center. . .I think it simply has to do with the travel, or rather the lack of travel that most joysticks have.

LEXX_Luthor
09-23-2007, 10:09 PM
You want the Saitek Cyborg Graphite -- S.C.G. http://content.vcommerce.com/products/11/4759011/main-150.jpg

It seems to be out of stock at the GoGamers but advance google saitek cyborg graphite

GoGamer~> http://www.gogamer.com/Saitek-Cyborg-Graphite-Joystick-...444873VVviewprod.htm (http://www.gogamer.com/Saitek-Cyborg-Graphite-Joystick-Saitek_stcVVproductId4759011VVcatId444873VVviewpro d.htm)

When I got into simming several years ago, I found a few at (yuck) The WalMarts for about 20 dollars each.



(0) SCG is a true World War Two combat flight sim stick; rugged and simple like a LaGG. I prefer the keyboard as a model for pilot/cockpit interface until somebody makes a flight sim keyboard that physically models a cockpit panel to replace the computer keyboard while simming.

(1) Largest common gaming joystick made.

(2) Giant titanic sized base, very heavy and stable on the table.

(3) Largest stick top throw distance of any joystick -- 6 inches -- compare with all others.

(4) Largest hat switch of any joystick made today -- compare with others. However, the diagonals don't work well for me, so I use it as a 4-way and not 8-way hat switch.

(5) Largest throttle of any joystick made, and smooth working.

(6) Only three stick top buttons but they are HUGE and offer great feedback click and feel.

(7) USB stick, plug into computer and fly. No software comes with the stick, at least in my purchase.

(8) Extremely rugged with huge handgrip, large trigger, and strong feel (see below). I'm still banging away at the original stick I purchased several years ago. The only maintenence required is dusting every year or so. I have not yet opened a backup joystick I purchased.

(9) Affordable. GoGamer wants 13$ -- if they currently had it in stock. Try the WalMarts if you must. You can't go wrong trying it.


Problems...

(1) As far as I know, the SCG is available in stores shelves only at The WalMarts, where I generally try not to shop.


This was my first joystick getting into The Sims a few years ago with Oleg's The FB, because it was a "cheap" starter joystick. I eventually looked to "upgrade" to a "popular" or "mainstream" Pro Simmer joystick, but when I was in CompUSA and testing the feel of all the other Pro Simmer Space Fighter sticks with mazes of tiny weak wonder buttons, they all had limited travel and all felt like a limp handshake or wet fish after having used the SCG for so long. I still use the SCG today.