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VW-IceFire
04-16-2006, 08:33 AM
OK...there have been a bunch of posts regarding the artificial intelligence since the last patch came out. Lots of complaints but I didn't understand one word of what you guys were talking about until I spent some serious time offline playing campaigns and working on my own missions.

I'm not sure why this was hard to articulate because it would have better understood by the rest of us reading the comments. The problems the AI have that are most pronounced have nothing to do with the behavior. Yes they crash, yes they do spirals to evade human pilots and it all looks a little funny...but the real problem is energy retention. It doesn't matter what fighter it is...they are climbing away, doing breakneck manuevers, and flying in a straight line faster than humans can. Comparing online to offline in planes that I common fly with and against and its completely different offline. If two planes are within...say 15% performance difference in terms of top speed...the AI seems to be able to make up the difference even if you're managing the engine like crazy.

A pair of AI 109G-10 with MG151/20 gunpods outran me in a Tempest V at full WEP, 110% throttle, rads closed. As far as I know...the 109G-10's speed advantage against the Tempest does not kick in until after the Tempests maximum throttle altitude has been passed (so somewhere over 6000m the G-10 should pull ahead).

This is the problem you folks are talking about. Am I right? If so...it does make things difficult offline as the AI seems to possess a fairly substantial ability in terms of speed, climb, and energy retention through manuevers. I realize we cannot make the AI that complicated and I was arguing that its impossible to make the AI as good as everyone wants it...BUT...I'm certain there has to be a way to prevent this from occuring because this was not really so over the last few patches.

VW-IceFire
04-16-2006, 08:33 AM
OK...there have been a bunch of posts regarding the artificial intelligence since the last patch came out. Lots of complaints but I didn't understand one word of what you guys were talking about until I spent some serious time offline playing campaigns and working on my own missions.

I'm not sure why this was hard to articulate because it would have better understood by the rest of us reading the comments. The problems the AI have that are most pronounced have nothing to do with the behavior. Yes they crash, yes they do spirals to evade human pilots and it all looks a little funny...but the real problem is energy retention. It doesn't matter what fighter it is...they are climbing away, doing breakneck manuevers, and flying in a straight line faster than humans can. Comparing online to offline in planes that I common fly with and against and its completely different offline. If two planes are within...say 15% performance difference in terms of top speed...the AI seems to be able to make up the difference even if you're managing the engine like crazy.

A pair of AI 109G-10 with MG151/20 gunpods outran me in a Tempest V at full WEP, 110% throttle, rads closed. As far as I know...the 109G-10's speed advantage against the Tempest does not kick in until after the Tempests maximum throttle altitude has been passed (so somewhere over 6000m the G-10 should pull ahead).

This is the problem you folks are talking about. Am I right? If so...it does make things difficult offline as the AI seems to possess a fairly substantial ability in terms of speed, climb, and energy retention through manuevers. I realize we cannot make the AI that complicated and I was arguing that its impossible to make the AI as good as everyone wants it...BUT...I'm certain there has to be a way to prevent this from occuring because this was not really so over the last few patches.

idonno
04-16-2006, 08:51 AM
Sounds right on to me.

I noticed the problem immediately after installing the patch. One of the first I did was fight an AI Zeke with a Corsair. It was more like fighting another F4U.

I€m sure they heard me yelling B^%% S#@&* across the street.

lowfighter
04-16-2006, 09:12 AM
It's part of the problem Icefire.
Suppose that the AI which is in your crosshairs begins to do as usually his clownish barrel rolls etc BUT as it does it it looses energy as it should? Would you like it then? Now AI is clownish and UEBER, in that fictitious case it would be clownish and STUPID. It shouldn't behave either UEBER or STUPID.
Yes you are right: make them lose energy as they should but also make them "try" to preserve energy at the same time. If only these two principles are obeyed!

_VR_ScorpionWorm
04-16-2006, 09:28 AM
That has got to be the biggest gripe with me concerning AI, the engergy retention and how they gain speed faster then what they should, but it comes down to simplifed FM I believe(of course that was stated a loong time ago, probably changed since then). I can live with those annoying countless barrels rolls from 5000m+ down to the deck, its the pulling positive G's(and other supernatural moves) that would probably kill the pilot, level off and keep their speed....

Still, like humans, some AI skill levels tend to have their moments of glory.

Aviar
04-16-2006, 10:15 AM
Also, the AI planes do not overheat, the pilots don't blackout and they can see through clouds.

This is why I like to have as many humans as posible in my coops. When the AI is flying, it can get a little silly at times.

Aviar

RCAF_Irish_403
04-16-2006, 10:52 AM
the 4.02 AI was great

The current AI drives me bonkers.

the positive-G-barrel-roll-as-it-magically-gains-E-right-as-u-put-him-in-yer-crosshairs thing is rather frustraiting...i still don't know how to counter it.

Whenever the AI starts that move I break of and climb...pretty soon every AI pilot has been driven to the deck where they start smashing into the ocean as i B'n"z them http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/shady.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/compsmash.gif

lowfighter
04-16-2006, 11:13 AM
Ah yeah, 4.01 was by far better with respect to energy issues. You in a Corsair, an AI zero on your 6? No prob, you dived away and laughed in your beard http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Pinker15
04-16-2006, 12:09 PM
Guys U forgot to say that AI dont have dead ranges of view in cokpit that he can see U through hes flor, wing etc. AI see everybody, everywere, allways under any conditions (not only in cloud).

VW-IceFire
04-16-2006, 02:01 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by RCAF_Irish_403:
the 4.02 AI was great

The current AI drives me bonkers.

the positive-G-barrel-roll-as-it-magically-gains-E-right-as-u-put-him-in-yer-crosshairs thing is rather frustraiting...i still don't know how to counter it.

Whenever the AI starts that move I break of and climb...pretty soon every AI pilot has been driven to the deck where they start smashing into the ocean as i B'n"z them http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/shady.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/compsmash.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
That last bit works unless its a FW190D-9 or a Bf109K-4 as they can regain their altitude and energy quickly just by virtue of the plane they are flying.

The AI has other issues like the one Pinker brings up but thats not something we need to confuse the issue about. The AI is stupid and its stupid in every game I've played ever. Its just not that good yet...but thats beside the point. My issue is purely with the AI playing to the rules inside of the game engine and not having a magical advantage. Other things like tactics, awareness, and so forth are for other days.

Blutarski2004
04-16-2006, 05:59 PM
IL2 might be a great on-line experience, but it is worthless (yes, I purposely chose that word) as an off-line flight sim experience in terms of paralleling historical aerial combat. I no longer fly IL2 off-line.

The way that the AI presently distorts the flight models of AI controlled a/c and human physiological abilities, the off-line human player might as well be playing a science-fiction game -

&gt; The human player cannot surprise or bounce an AI opponent.

&gt; The human player cannot exploit performance advantages of his a/c versus that of the AI opponent.

&gt; The AI pilot has X-Ray vision under all conditions.

&gt; The G limits of an AI opponent are limited (presumably) only by the structual strength of its a/c.

&gt; Etc, etc, etc.


This situation has been with us since IL2 Version 1.00. The problem IMO is in the basic approach taken by the Maddox design team and is not likely to be repaired by any sort of tinkering or tweaking. And it is not going to change unless Maddox admits that it has a real problem in the AI arena. I'm not holding my breath on that happening any time soon.....

Grey_Mouser67
04-17-2006, 10:56 AM
I believe the current energy/speed/manuevering advantage are getting the most press because it is the worst part of the AI.

I do believe, that the behavior of AI...especially friendly AI has some serious errors that is just not getting press because the other issues are much more serious.

Behaviorally friendly AI do:

Steal kills. Had six of my squad mates leave the battle to chase 1 smoking and very dead adversary.

Wingman is easily separated and will not cover my six.

Wingmen and squadmates will not attack a target I select and command them to attack.

Attack all...means drop bombs anywhere to friendly AI

AI miss badly on easy shots and pull off miraculous deflection shots.

Enemy AI behavioral issues include the following...

Target fixation...once a target is selected, enemy AI will pursue you to the ends of the earth and through easy targets etc to hunt you down.

Same gunnery issues as noted above

Will not bail when plane is on fire and can fly with oiled windscreen etc...

Negative G manuevers are totally bogus

That is about it for now....will add on's have new AI?

nearmiss
04-17-2006, 11:22 AM
There are some very real issues with the AI, which any experienced Offline player is fully aware.

Honestly, I think the AI is probably pretty well done considering...

<span class="ev_code_YELLOW">A major ingredient missing from AI is the total disregard for randomness in performance and extraordinary situational awareness.</span>

When Oleg made the same flight models applicable to the AI as we users have then a new set of issues began surfacing.

If you're a newbie and you want to cope with the AI it's an easy process. A good starting point is to just fly HUD and and spend all your efforts just trying to stay alive. In other words...run, run, run. Watch the map, watch you six and just do hours of evasive play.

What you'll begin to see is how the AI will climb when you climb, turn when you turn. Since the AI is all seeing and all knowing you'll see how defeating the AI becomes a squirrel plan.

A few examples might be in order. Take a P-51D and 1v1 the Hurricane. Now that should be an easy matchup, but it's not in the QMB. The Hurricane has a great turn rate, a poor climb rate and slower ground speed...and if you go at the Hurricane as Veteran/Ace "head to head" he'll blow your butt out of the sky every time.
The AI does target and score very well at Veteran and Ace levels. So...if you try to boom and zoom him you're gonna face the Hurricane head to head, because it can turn so well.

The trick to beating the Hurricane or other weaker aircraft can be enhance by pulling stunts of an irregular nature,i.e., diving from high and straight down with a spiral. You confuse the math in the AI programming and maybe your timing will be such you nail him. If you get on his six...the Hurricane will just run away and then take a dive and you'll either turn fight or pass. So...in a P51 you can hit your flaps, run up your elevator trim back off on the Horse power and do a little turn fighting if you're impatient to get it over.

If you want to BnZ you're gonna spend some time, if you want to avoid a head to head. It's more difficult to BnZ since the AI is all seeing and all knowing. The AI will just turn into you as you boom and you'll zoom with your tail on fire. LOL

So... the solution is perplexing at best.

Online play is better for sure since you're up against real people and you'll definitely face a lot of randomness in performance and actions.

The only issue I have with online play is Furballs, furballs and more furballs. In so many cases you've either gotta pair up or you're dead, dead, dead. A half organized pair can do wonders against almost any lone enemy.

Honestly... I don't think Offline play against the AI worth much, except maybe to help you shoot better and develop situational awareness. As far as tactics and manuevers I think it's just about thinking the math...and then you'll be very proficient at AI hunting and killing.

Oh! avoid head to heads like the plague and stay out of gun range. Those little mathmatical AI marvels can pick a fly off your nose at 500 meters.

RegRag1977
04-17-2006, 11:36 AM
And new AI cannot slow down: when it's after you, after you made everything that use to work online not to be in this bad situation, just try to slow down as hard as you can and barrel roll; it will overshoot you 90% of time and will begin to barrel roll as well or scissoring,(everytime, God! its so so boring, wake me up, i must be in a nightmare...) providing you with superb snapshooting possibilities!

It seems to have problems in noob low deflexion shooting,

so forget real tactics and remember with 4.04 SPEED KILLS: slow down hard to survive and win!

Regards!

nearmiss
04-17-2006, 11:47 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"><span class="ev_code_YELLOW">so forget real tactics and remember with 4.04 SPEED KILLS: slow down hard to survive and win!</span> </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's a very good point "forget real tactics" after you get a feel for what the AI is going to do you'll discover little tweaks that will let you slide right in and pop their lil butts.

If you apply the same tactics Online you'll get your lil butt smacked.

So... if you need to develop situational awareness and your shooting accuracy those lil AI marvels are a great help.

RegRag1977
04-17-2006, 12:02 PM
So right, Nearmiss!

You'll say i'm the bad guy, but i can help expecting more fun than that when i'm playing offline: don't you think previous patches were more interesting to that point of view (CF immersion)?

I liked playing offline so much, you know...

nearmiss
04-17-2006, 12:19 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by RegRag1977:
So right, Nearmiss!

You'll say i'm the bad guy, but i can help expecting more fun than that when i'm playing offline: don't you think previous patches were more interesting to that point of view (CF immersion)?

I liked playing offline so much, you know... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I used to love sim offline. I built missions and campaigns for couple years. Interestingly enough you can actually do a little more with the AI through programming the FMB than you can with the QMB. The QMB has always been pretty lame.

There are a lot of good missions available for offline play (forget about the computer generated junk that is nothing but a time waster). Timing is critical to good mission building and the computer generated junk just makes a muck outta that.

An example is the ability within the FMB to SET a WAYPOINT for attack of one flight with another. The whole process of the air combat is altered to a more sensible conflict. I've even SET a WAYPOINT for attack of an accompanying flight with the enemy flight and my flight busted the ships. It was great fun.

The FMB is such a tedious tool to work with I gave up about a year ago...messing with it.

Actually, I understand the AI is now using the same flight models as users. So...if it is that way then the AI cannot do anything users cannot do performance wise. Some of the complaints about uber peformance of the AI may not be credible. I do trust Oleg when he says he does or does not do something.

Maybe we should also think in terms of flying the QMB against the AI as more than a tool for developing our situational awareness and shooting ability. Maybe we should think of it as a tool to help us develop our ability to get the most out of our aircraft as well. That is if users do have the same flight models as the AI vs v.

As far as your comment about previous AI

I remember the lousy AI from the start, and honestly I'm not near as disappointed now with the AI as I was in the past. You can do a search on the boards and come up with some of the most incredible stories about the AI you can imagine.

lowfighter
04-17-2006, 12:47 PM
It's true, the flight model changed from 4.03 to 4.04, it became easier to fly. So the AI are expected to perform better than in 4.03. Indeed they do it, but in a very "funny" way. I am having fun with 4.03, where the AI is pretty tough without flying so ridiculously. At least I don't see the startrek energy-keeping barrel rolls and the crazy low altitude AI acrobatics of the 4.04.
And yes, AI is much better anyway than at start. If someone doesn't believe that, just install FB v1.0 on PC and give it a try.

MrMojok
04-17-2006, 12:56 PM
As far as AI seeing through clouds, always spotting you before you bounce them, wingmen notcovering you, etc... from what I understand these have always been problems with the AI of this sim and I don't expect them to be fixed. We'll have to wait for BoB.

One thing that is wrong with the AI now, and only since the last patch, has been pointed out above: energy retention. I second this 100%.

Here is the best example I have seen:
Flying P51d, had shot out the engine on a 109. He was gliding down, slowing more and more. I circled around behind him to finish him off. I got close enough to see that his prop was completely stationary, not spinning at all. Right as I closed to my convergence range and was in the act of pulling the trigger, he zoomed climbed. Straight up, with no engine. I am not the only one why has seen this. SeaFire or Horseback has seen it too, I don't remember which.

Edit- I'd like to add, I don't have a problem with the AI pilots barrel rolling and flying wildly to evade me... all I want is for them to be affected by E loss just like I would be if I did it.

RegRag1977
04-17-2006, 12:59 PM
Nearmiss,

There are good points in your post, thanks for sending it!

It seems that You master the potential of this game far better than i can, maybe it's time for me to consider this game otherwise...I know myself too well not to know it will be hard!

Respecting your points of view, your calm and polite tone (so rare round here!), i still think there are some little (i don't mean everything is wrong) problems with AI, maybe with the aggressive way they fight, or with their energy retention. But i know i can be wrong...



Anyway, thank You for the quiet and interseting discussion!

RegRag1977
04-17-2006, 01:06 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by MrMojok:
As far as AI seeing through clouds, always spotting you before you bounce them, wingmen notcovering you, etc... from what I understand these have always been problems with the AI of this sim and I don't expect them to be fixed. We'll have to wait for BoB.

One thing that is wrong with the AI now, and only since the last patch, has been pointed out above: energy retention. I second this 100%.

Here is the best example I have seen:
Flying P51d, had shot out the engine on a 109. He was gliding down, slowing more and more. I circled around behind him to finish him off. I got close enough to see that his prop was completely stationary, not spinning at all. Right as I closed to my convergence range and was in the act of pulling the trigger, he zoomed climbed. Straight up, with no engine. I am not the only one why has seen this. SeaFire or Horseback has seen it too, I don't remember which.

Edit- I'd like to add, I don't have a problem with the AI pilots barrel rolling and flying wildly to evade me... all I want is for them to be affected by E loss just like I would be if I did it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I see what you mean: very good description for what i tried to say! I've seen such weird things too, you're not alone! I think there is really something wrong with E retention;


one has to take this as a FACT, not as an opinion!

nearmiss
04-17-2006, 01:13 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
Here is the best example I have seen:
Flying P51d, had shot out the engine on a 109. He was gliding down, slowing more and more. I circled around behind him to finish him off. I got close enough to see that his prop was completely stationary, not spinning at all. Right as I closed to my convergence range and was in the act of pulling the trigger, he zoomed climbed. Straight up, with no engine. I am not the only one why has seen this. SeaFire or Horseback has seen it too, I don't remember which.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That is too funny...

I do remember a similar thing where I shot the engine out of a 109 and that dude kept going like a never ending story. He didn't zoom away in my case. LOL

This may not be much consolation, but honestly I could care less. I'm totally outta giving a care about what this sim does or doesn't do anymore.

I just expect, unexpected things. I'm never disappointed anymore.

RegRag1977
04-17-2006, 03:09 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">If Bob doesn't make some quantum leap above this thing people won't buy it in enough quantity to keep Oleg in the sim making business. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree 100%. People begin to get wearied about such inaccuracies.

But it would be too bad if Oleg failed, because he and his team are very gifted in their work...

They give us something that was undone till IL2: what a great sim in the end, no? A true revolution... So many years i've played it with joy! I've learnt so many things with it that i'm grateful to Oleg and team for that.

As a matter of fact, in the end, i don't want the game to be SO perfect:

As you truly said, it has never been, though it has been much funny before 4.04 where something with AI has been far too wrong.

No, i don't feel like we are in a dramatic situation: AI will surely be fixed and improved, and, you know, maybe we will have fun again...

AMEN

sledgehammer2
04-17-2006, 05:39 PM
I agree with all the above... to the point that I am not even flying anymore until something changes for the better. It's that bad to me.

Has there been any acknowledgement from Oleg that something will be done to improve the AI??? Somebody said that they emailed Oleg (right after 4.04 came out) and he said that he didn't want to do any code changes until after the Pe-2 add-on, and then there would be a patch with the Burma map and hopefully the AI would be addressed.

But AFAIK this was never official. Does anyone know if he even plans to address it? Any info on what Oleg plans to do?(Concerning the AI). Something I hope.

VW-IceFire
04-18-2006, 05:13 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by sledgehammer2:
I agree with all the above... to the point that I am not even flying anymore until something changes for the better. It's that bad to me.

Has there been any acknowledgement from Oleg that something will be done to improve the AI??? Somebody said that they emailed Oleg (right after 4.04 came out) and he said that he didn't want to do any code changes until after the Pe-2 add-on, and then there would be a patch with the Burma map and hopefully the AI would be addressed.

But AFAIK this was never official. Does anyone know if he even plans to address it? Any info on what Oleg plans to do?(Concerning the AI). Something I hope. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Don't expect anything to be said...expect it to be changed somehow. You may not like how it gets changed either...but usually Oleg does things. He DOES listen...alot of folks don't like the fact that he doesn't say alot but I think thats a very healthy skepticisim he's worked himself into when the community got too big and too abusive for him to really walk openly. The man has taken some serious flak and while there are legitimate complaints about the software people take things too far out of perspective and launch some very personal attacks.

If I were him I'd be doing the same. You can only take so much.

sledgehammer2
04-18-2006, 06:46 PM
Well, hell I don't blame him. I can't say enough good things about him and what he has done.

I just want to see this AI thing improved. I've been with this sim a long time and I really miss being "in the cockpit". I realize taking a hiatus is totally my decision and some might think it ludicrous, but I only fly off-line and as things are at present it's just not workin for me.

nearmiss
04-18-2006, 08:29 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by sledgehammer2:
Well, hell I don't blame him. I can't say enough good things about him and what he has done.

I just want to see this AI thing improved. I've been with this sim a long time and I really miss being "in the cockpit". I realize taking a hiatus is totally my decision and some might think it ludicrous, but I only fly off-line and as things are at present it's just not workin for me. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I've been away from the boards for quite awhile. I've not read any of your past postings as I recall.

Maybe you could just summarize some your principal complaints/issues with the AI.

Like I said, I've been away for quite a while and the AI are definitely improved since I last encountered the little wonder boys.

They can still see in the dark, through clouds and they shoot like Sargeant York. Other than that in the QMB I've been up against some pretty good flying by the AI at Veteran and Ace levels. I've been flying 1vs1 and make a recording with smoke on. I go back play the recording and then hit F2 button and get behind my aircraft. I take my mouse and push the aircraft out in front so I can see the combat with the AI. Sometimes I do a Ctrl-F2 and get behind the AI and watch.

It's great for really seeing what those little wonder boys can do. Also, since they do a lot of the same things over and over you can get a feel for some their stunts. The stunts and manuevers aren't half bad.

You may not have issues with the AI flying skills as with their sorry response to commands. That always was a nuisance. I can't tell you how many times in a mission I couldn't call the AI off and the Flak finally took out the whole group. I got to fly home by my lonesome many times.

I've had one on my six and my wingman was just tagging along behind. An enemy slipped in on my six and the wingman just kept tagging along behind us both. If I called for a little help...sometimes I got it. LOL

I do think the AI flying manuevers and combat tactics are improved. I think flying against the AI at Veteran and Ace levels can improve your flying skills, if you review recordings that will really help.

VW-IceFire
04-18-2006, 09:19 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by nearmiss:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by sledgehammer2:
Well, hell I don't blame him. I can't say enough good things about him and what he has done.

I just want to see this AI thing improved. I've been with this sim a long time and I really miss being "in the cockpit". I realize taking a hiatus is totally my decision and some might think it ludicrous, but I only fly off-line and as things are at present it's just not workin for me. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I've been away from the boards for quite awhile. I've not read any of your past postings as I recall.

Maybe you could just summarize some your principal complaints/issues with the AI.

Like I said, I've been away for quite a while and the AI are definitely improved since I last encountered the little wonder boys.

They can still see in the dark, through clouds and they shoot like Sargeant York. Other than that in the QMB I've been up against some pretty good flying by the AI at Veteran and Ace levels. I've been flying 1vs1 and make a recording with smoke on. I go back play the recording and then hit F2 button and get behind my aircraft. I take my mouse and push the aircraft out in front so I can see the combat with the AI. Sometimes I do a Ctrl-F2 and get behind the AI and watch.

It's great for really seeing what those little wonder boys can do. Also, since they do a lot of the same things over and over you can get a feel for some their stunts. The stunts and manuevers aren't half bad.

You may not have issues with the AI flying skills as with their sorry response to commands. That always was a nuisance. I can't tell you how many times in a mission I couldn't call the AI off and the Flak finally took out the whole group. I got to fly home by my lonesome many times.

I've had one on my six and my wingman was just tagging along behind. An enemy slipped in on my six and the wingman just kept tagging along behind us both. If I called for a little help...sometimes I got it. LOL

I do think the AI flying manuevers and combat tactics are improved. I think flying against the AI at Veteran and Ace levels can improve your flying skills, if you review recordings that will really help. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Can't speak for others but my beef with the AI is purely with regards to their FM interactions. Its changed between 4.02 and 4.04 and they seem to have some abilities they shouldn't.

nearmiss
04-18-2006, 09:54 PM
I find it interesting how rusty you can get after about a year layoff.

The AI do some wierd stuff and sometimes nail me, but heck ...all I'm flying against is ones and zeros (binary code). The AI could care less win or lose. I've just gotta get more comfortable with hearing that blam blam in my cockpit when I screw up.

I learned originally to fly IL2 against the AI and they were no where near what they are today. I think it's just a matter of what you're using them for.

There are some weird things going on for sure. I was QMB - P51D against a Hurricane. I was making altitude with the P51D 4 to 5 bars on the attitude and that darn Hurricane was climbing up with me like a banshee. The interesting part was how that thing could put up it's nose and take a shot after that thing should have been energy drained, stalled and headed for the deck.

Offline missions were always plagued with the incompentence of the AI. Yeah, I know we all gravitate toward missions after a while. I'll be like everyone else...squawking about the AI issues.

Hopefully we'll have the BOB before long. Since it's gonna be a world class sim we won't have anymore AI issues.(Tongue in cheek)

sledgehammer2
04-19-2006, 04:35 PM
Nearmiss, the other posts in this thread sum up pretty much what I have problems with. However, to help put this in perspective I will use this as an example... 2 Zero 21s vs 2 P-40Es over New Guinea at 16,000 ft. At that altitude, and lower from there as things progress, the Zero 21 with its single stage single speed SC should be performing fine.

No matter what I do the damn P-40s are running away and climbing away. I burn the engine up just trying to get in gun range and I rarely ever do. The AI planes are able to pull some F-15 like climbs because they retain e too well.

I know not to follow them in a dive and I don't. For that matter I have tried it against P-39s but it's always the same. I can never catch up.

And yes, the incompetence is frustrating too.

I just wish this would get some attention... it has killed my enjoyment of the sim. I rarely even fly anymore.

RegRag1977
04-20-2006, 06:17 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by sledgehammer2:
Nearmiss, the other posts in this thread sum up pretty much what I have problems with. However, to help put this in perspective I will use this as an example... 2 Zero 21s vs 2 P-40Es over New Guinea at 16,000 ft. At that altitude, and lower from there as things progress, the Zero 21 with its single stage single speed SC should be performing fine.

No matter what I do the damn P-40s are running away and climbing away. I burn the engine up just trying to get in gun range and I rarely ever do. The AI planes are able to pull some F-15 like climbs because they retain e too well.

I know not to follow them in a dive and I don't. For that matter I have tried it against P-39s but it's always the same. I can never catch up.

And yes, the incompetence is frustrating too.

I just wish this would get some attention... it has killed my enjoyment of the sim. I rarely even fly anymore. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree with this post 100%!

Why are your remarks so hard too understand? I don't know.

When i played 4.04 for the really first times i thought there would be a concensus with it... (one of the worst to me)
But now, i think that the concensus has not come because of different facts.

First, the way you appreciate AI must depend on:

the aircraft you use mostly;

the tactics you prefer (realistic or pulling hard during hours);

the plane controled by the Ai against wich you fight.

What i noticed is that new AI can be very interesting (UFO, but challenging) when you fly some (über?)fighters available.
On the other hand if you try defensive tactics, if you try to keep speed high with others, you'll lose or be obliged to use improper and unrealistic tactics to defeat AI.

With the first kind of A/C, the way your fight is also unrealistic, but more comfortable and challenging.

I think this is why, when i first talked on this forum about new AI, i was sharing the same ideas than one part of the simers, the other part beeing proud and beleiving themselves to be elite...
I remember one of those calling me "Ungrateful noob"...I had to practice more to be like them, you know... As if the complain was about shooting AI Ace down (what even my six years old bro can do, no miracle, be sure), more than the WAY you shoot it down (tactics used).
Another thing is the way Online pilots (i must admit to be one of them occasionnally) are proud of themselves and regarding themselves to play the realistic/harder way, to be closer from real WW2 pilots... Funny to see them redout, blackout, pulling as hard as Incredible HULK in person... Ha, ha, ha... How funny, people fighting in chairs with soft Joysticks and believing in their "realistic überness"!

Thanks God, not every VIRTUAL pilots do like that, and offline (lan and coops vs AI) was for me the place where you could fight in a realistic way...


Maybe i'm wrong...

stathem
04-20-2006, 06:25 AM
Ooooh I got one...well several actually but this one is fresh.

Couple of nights ago I was just playing around after some practice on the Tempest, so I set up to fly Gladiator vs some AI CR42s...always good for a giggle.

They spent most of their time doing that insane neg-G pushover and outside barrel roll. In Cr42s. Hmmm.

RegRag1977
04-20-2006, 06:27 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by stathem:
Ooooh I got one...well several actually but this one is fresh.

Couple of nights ago I was just playing around after some practice on the Tempest, so I set up to fly Gladiator vs some AI CR42s...always good for a giggle.

They spent most of their time doing that insane neg-G pushover and outside barrel roll. In Cr42s. Hmmm. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, indeed, we don't know if we have to laugh or to cry...
Nonsense...

BrotherJayne
07-25-2007, 03:50 PM
Sigh
I'm hoping this get's fixed... even a minor performance modifyer would help tons

JG54_Lukas
07-26-2007, 12:54 AM
The hell are you bumping up all these threads about the AI? Are you that bored for conversation?

flyingloon
07-26-2007, 05:32 AM
practicing his necromancy skills, next up is the .50cals and then he's off to the grave yard.

Aymar_Mauri
08-04-2007, 12:43 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by VW-IceFire:
OK...there have been a bunch of posts regarding the artificial intelligence since the last patch came out. Lots of complaints but I didn't understand one word of what you guys were talking about until I spent some serious time offline playing campaigns and working on my own missions.

I'm not sure why this was hard to articulate because it would have better understood by the rest of us reading the comments. The problems the AI have that are most pronounced have nothing to do with the behavior. Yes they crash, yes they do spirals to evade human pilots and it all looks a little funny...but the real problem is energy retention. It doesn't matter what fighter it is...they are climbing away, doing breakneck manuevers, and flying in a straight line faster than humans can. Comparing online to offline in planes that I common fly with and against and its completely different offline. If two planes are within...say 15% performance difference in terms of top speed...the AI seems to be able to make up the difference even if you're managing the engine like crazy.

A pair of AI 109G-10 with MG151/20 gunpods outran me in a Tempest V at full WEP, 110% throttle, rads closed. As far as I know...the 109G-10's speed advantage against the Tempest does not kick in until after the Tempests maximum throttle altitude has been passed (so somewhere over 6000m the G-10 should pull ahead).

This is the problem you folks are talking about. Am I right? If so...it does make things difficult offline as the AI seems to possess a fairly substantial ability in terms of speed, climb, and energy retention through manuevers. I realize we cannot make the AI that complicated and I was arguing that its impossible to make the AI as good as everyone wants it...BUT...I'm certain there has to be a way to prevent this from occuring because this was not really so over the last few patches. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
You're absolutely correct. Energy retention, non-human G capabilities, excessive speed and no-overheat are the trouble issues.

Aymar_Mauri
08-04-2007, 12:47 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Grey_Mouser67:
I believe the current energy/speed/manuevering advantage are getting the most press because it is the worst part of the AI.

I do believe, that the behavior of AI...especially friendly AI has some serious errors that is just not getting press because the other issues are much more serious.

Behaviorally friendly AI do:

Steal kills. Had six of my squad mates leave the battle to chase 1 smoking and very dead adversary.

Wingman is easily separated and will not cover my six.

Wingmen and squadmates will not attack a target I select and command them to attack.

Attack all...means drop bombs anywhere to friendly AI

AI miss badly on easy shots and pull off miraculous deflection shots.

Enemy AI behavioral issues include the following...

Target fixation...once a target is selected, enemy AI will pursue you to the ends of the earth and through easy targets etc to hunt you down.

Same gunnery issues as noted above

Will not bail when plane is on fire and can fly with oiled windscreen etc...

Negative G manuevers are totally bogus

That is about it for now....will add on's have new AI? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Great condensation of the problems. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Aymar_Mauri
08-04-2007, 12:55 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JG54_Lukas:
The hell are you bumping up all these threads about the AI? Are you that bored for conversation? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
If one can't win, one has to join the conversation... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

AI issues remain in 4.08.

stalkervision
08-04-2007, 02:39 PM
The one thing I hate the most about the Ai is that you can NEVER EVER sneek up on a AI plane as in real life.

90.% of the real world actual air kills are surprise attacks.

One can't do this In the game whatsoever.

I have tried every which way to sneek up on a Ai plane and as soon as I get into gun range they start doing these weird defensive manauvers. I can be right under them mind you and they know I am there! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif They climb and they dive and they climb and they dive all in a straight line. This isn't "jinking" as real pilots do whatsoever. It is really weird F-up, throw your aim off sh-t made up by some drunken programmer not a combat pilot..

It looks totally silly too! What it does is make me waste precious ammo following all these rediculous manauvers that would give a real pilot trying to do the same thing alternating red outs if he tried that cr-ap in real life..

If they could just fix this one thing I would be as happy as a clam.. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

well there are other issues to fix too like everyone said but this is the worst of them for me.. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

stalkervision
08-04-2007, 02:55 PM
btw I find that throwing the book totally out on how an actual pilot and his particular aircraft would have really performed in actual real life helps tremendously..

you want to win in "quick missions" spiral climb. Spiral climb in any aircraft you are flying! In the merge don't turn CLIMB! Keep climbing till you get into a nice position over your enemies heads and B and Z them. Use your team-mates as cannon fodder and as cat nip to lure the enemy planes away from you. Then while the Ai is attacking your buddies blast them and climb back to altitude.

works on all levels of AI including ace. Just make sure your teammates are set ace level also or they will get blown away so fast you won't even have a chance to B and Z the enemy Ai planes.. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

Gitano1979
08-05-2007, 04:32 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by lowfighter:
It's part of the problem Icefire.
Suppose that the AI which is in your crosshairs begins to do as usually his clownish barrel rolls etc BUT as it does it it looses energy as it should? Would you like it then? Now AI is clownish and UEBER, in that fictitious case it would be clownish and STUPID. It shouldn't behave either UEBER or STUPID.
Yes you are right: make them lose energy as they should but also make them "try" to preserve energy at the same time. If only these two principles are obeyed! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif

also tone down the AI radar, almost with experience (rokie=easy prey,..., ace=eagle eyes)