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ROXunreal
07-06-2009, 07:46 AM
What are some planes that were (generally) not liked by their pilots? I know only of two, the B-26 and the LaGG

JtD
07-06-2009, 07:52 AM
The Ki-44 wasn't particularly popular among the pilots who felt it wasn't maneuverable enough.

Feathered_IV
07-06-2009, 08:00 AM
I predict much argument regarding the B-26 and several others.

I suspect the Defiant was rather hated though. Probably the Battle too.

Freiwillige
07-06-2009, 08:06 AM
P-39 Aircobra was pretty disliked by U.S. pilots.
It was nicknamed the "Iron dog" and it irrecoverable flat spins caused US army air corps pilots to churn out this song

"Please dont give me a P-39, I would rather fly any other kind. Cause it will tumble and spin and do us all in please dont give me a P-39!"

The P-39 had lost its high altitude two stage supercharger and gained additional weight in armor and fuel from the prototype. The result was that any Japanese fighter could out climb and out turn the P-39 and they were always met at an altitude advantage.

The Russians who received the P-39 stripped it of armor and the wing guns and other additional weight like radios etc. and loved the aircraft as they flew em low anyways.

berg417448
07-06-2009, 08:13 AM
They sang that drinking song about every plane in their inventory:


Author unknown, Air Force traditional

CHORUS:
Give me operations way out on some lonely atoll
For I am too young to die; I just want to grow old

Don't give me a P-38; the props, they counter-rotate
She's smattered and smitten from Burma to Britain
Don't give me a P-38

CHORUS

Don't give me a P-39; the engine is mounted behind
She'll tumble and roll, and she'll bore a deep hole
Don't give me a P-39

CHORUS

Don't give me a Peter-four-oh; it's a hell of an airplane, I know
A ground-looping bastard, you're bound to get plastered
Don't give me a Peter-four-oh

CHORUS

Don't give me an old Thunderbolt; she gave many pilots a jolt
It looks like a jug, and it flies like a tug
Don't give me an old Thunderbolt

CHORUS

Don't give me a P-51; the airplane that's second to none
She'll loop, roll and spin, but she'll auger you in
Don't give me a P-51

CHORUS

Don't give me an F-82; that monster from out of the blue
You won't understand just who's in command
Don't give me an F-82

CHORUS

Don't five me an old Shooting Star; she goes, but not very far
She'll rumble and spout, and will surely flame out
Don't give me an old Shooting Star

CHORUS

Don't give me an F-84; her pilots they ain't here no more
They bombed in that crate, but they all pulled out late
Don't give me an F-84

CHORUS

Don't give me an 86D, with rockets, radar, and AB
She's fast, I don't care; she blows up in mid-air
Don't give me an 86D

CHORUS

Don't give me a One-Double-Oh to fight against friendly or foe
That old Sabre dance made me crap in my pants
Don't give me a One-Double-Oh

CHORUS

Don't give me McDonnell's Voodoo; there's nothing that she will not do
She'll really pitch up, she'll make you throw up
Don't give me McDonnell's Voodoo

CHORUS

Don't give me an F-104; she's faster than lightning fer shore
But after one pass there's no bullets, no gas
Don't give me an F-104

CHORUS

Don't give me an F-105, 'cause I like being alive
She's great for attack, she soaks up mach-mach flak
Don't give me an F-105

CHORUS

Don't give me an old F-4C, with a navigator flying with me
Her dihedral's neat, but she's got a back seat
Don't give me an old F-4C

danjama
07-06-2009, 08:13 AM
A pilot should always love his plane.

ROXunreal
07-06-2009, 08:26 AM
Originally posted by danjama:
A pilot should always love his plane.

Kinda hard to do when it's underpowered and turns like a zeppelin. I'm playing a LaGG campaign right now and that plane is horrible in dogfights.

JtD
07-06-2009, 08:41 AM
LaGG-3's are hit and run planes. In particular the S4, later variants are getting better and better dogfighters. But I suppose hit and run doesn't really work in an offline campaign.

Daiichidoku
07-06-2009, 08:55 AM
SB2C

(son-of-a-b i t c h, 2nd class)


also, post-war Italian pilots of certain Gruppos were not impressed to have thier spitfires in one case, and F-84 Thunderjets in another, taken away to be replaced by P47s....

ImMoreBetter
07-06-2009, 09:15 AM
B-29.

Despite it's capabilities, those who flew in it say it felt like a death trap. The engines would often overheat and easily set fire. Not a fun plane to be on the controls for either.

ROXunreal
07-06-2009, 09:34 AM
Ah yes I remember reading somewhere that taking off with a B-29 was horror.

Ba5tard5word
07-06-2009, 09:47 AM
The Buffalo. Used really well by the Finns into the mid-40's but hated by American pilots who probably weren't trained how to fly them properly.

Jaws2002
07-06-2009, 10:27 AM
Originally posted by Ba5tard5word:
The Buffalo. Used really well by the Finns into the mid-40's but hated by American pilots who probably weren't trained how to fly them properly.


The Finns got the earlier version. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Here's what Pappy Boyington had to say about it:


....I remember asking him about the Brewster Buffalo (Then, Now and Always, my favorite aircraft). I had no sooner finished saying the word 'Buffalo', when he slammed his beer can down on the table, and practicaly snarled, "It was a DOG!" (His emphasis). Then he slowly leaned back in his chair and after a moment quietly said, "But the early models, before they weighed it all down with armorplate, radios and other ****, they were pretty sweet little ships. Not real fast, but the little ****s could turn and roll in a phonebooth. Oh yeah--sweet little ship; but some engineer went and ****ed it up."

F19_Orheim
07-06-2009, 10:45 AM
Originally posted by Freiwillige:
P-39 Aircobra was pretty disliked by U.S. pilots.
.
true, but Yeager really liked it, according to his book

Mr_Zooly
07-06-2009, 10:45 AM
Early LaGGs were hated by the Soviet pilots, something about plastic reinforced coffins.

horseback
07-06-2009, 11:20 AM
Originally posted by Ba5tard5word:
The Buffalo. Used really well by the Finns into the mid-40's but hated by American pilots who probably weren't trained how to fly them properly. Most prewar Naval aviators had one beef with the Buffalo: its landing gear. Brewster's quality control was pretty shoddy, and late model Buffalos in particular had a tendency to shave pieces off the gear's rotation mechanism after a few carrier landings.

This ultimately led to the gear's collapse at some unpredicatable point, a trait unlikely to endear any aircraft to its pilots. The extra weight of armor, tailhook, early radios and so on of the later carrier types probably made the landing gear issue even worse.

As for training, the US Navy's training system prewar was pretty damned good by any measure. I'd love to see how well the Finns would have done against those early war IJN Japanese pilots flying Zeros instead of those early war Soviet pilots flying I-16s and LaGGs.

Naval aviators flying Wildcats got a better than 1:1 ratio against the Zero by the time it was replaced by the Hellcat and Corsair in 1943, and over 2:1 against the Japanese overall, and the Wildcat was never as nifty as the early Buffalo (which beat it in the initial competition).

cheers

horseback

Friendly_flyer
07-06-2009, 12:12 PM
The Fairey Barracuda was perhaps not as much hated as it was feared. Contrary to it's predecessors, the Swordfish and the Albacore, bout of which were extremely reliable and easy to fly (if not exactly fast...), the Barracuda had a tendency to simply fall from the sky without warning, taking the pilot, navigator and gunner with it. The problem was eventually identified as a leak that would squirt ether in the pilots face, rendering him unconscious, but this was only after the war. It did not hep that the heat of the Pacific reduced engine capacity by almost 30%.

The plane that mysteriously killed their crew inspired a naval pilot, John Godley Kilbracken, to title his wartime memories "Bring back my Stringbag!".

Bearcat99
07-06-2009, 12:37 PM
Most of the Airmen I spoke to all loved the P-51... and even the P-40.. although many said the tourque was so strong that ifg you were kind of small you had to almost stand on the pedals to keep from crashing on TO.. but to a man they all said they hated the P-39.. in fact the only American pilot I ever heard about who to this day says he actually liked the P-39 was Chuck Yeager... Also from what I have read most Russian pilots were not crazy about the Laggs either... although most of them thought the Las were a definite improvement...

Ba5tard5word
07-06-2009, 01:36 PM
Were the Buffalos used at land bases by the RAF and US in the East Indies area also heavy?

The Buffalo Mk.I in-game doesn't really feel any different to fly than the B-239 except that the Mk.I has a higher speed. Though the problems with the Buffalo probably aren't modeled in game. Actually the US carrier version feels about the same too, but I don't like its goofy periscope gunsight.

Probably the same with the LaGG-3--it gets a bad reputation due to quality control issues we wouldn't see in game, and I find it to be pretty decent to fly. The 1941 version feels really underpowered but it can do ok, and the later versions are nice for their time periods.



The problem was eventually identified as a leak that would squirt ether in the pilots face

That's a Pinto fuel tank level of defect. Good lord.

WTE_Galway
07-06-2009, 05:07 PM
Originally posted by Ba5tard5word:


Probably the same with the LaGG-3--it gets a bad reputation due to quality control issues we wouldn't see in game, and I find it to be pretty decent to fly.


In game its biggest problem is when you open the radiator cowl ... it starts to waddle like a duck at low speed. Keep radiator shut and it handles passably though not great.

On the plus side - the big gun lagg 3IT is a relatively stable sniping platform - I have little trouble hitting targets at 600+ metres with the IT.

danjama
07-06-2009, 05:42 PM
I always enjoyed the Lagg in original IL2, it was my favourite plane!

That was back when it turned on a penny and had immense energy retention....

R_Target
07-06-2009, 08:21 PM
Originally posted by Ba5tard5word:
Were the Buffalos used at land bases by the RAF and US in the East Indies area also heavy?

The Buffalo Mk.I in-game doesn't really feel any different to fly than the B-239 except that the Mk.I has a higher speed. Though the problems with the Buffalo probably aren't modeled in game. Actually the US carrier version feels about the same too, but I don't like its goofy periscope gunsight.

That's because the USN (and USMC) were flying the F2A-3, which is about a thousand pounds heavier than the export models. They were the ones that got shredded at Midway, and the ones we don't have in IL2.

Freiwillige
07-06-2009, 08:26 PM
The Brewster Buffalo also had a very big overheating issue in the pacific so they had to fly them gently and with ******ed throttle settings. When they overheated it would spew oil all over the cowl engine and and windshield.

I read an article once where historians unanimously voted it the worst U.S. fighter of WWII

WTE_Galway
07-06-2009, 11:12 PM
Was never really operational but this must have come close :

http://www.lonesentry.com/features/pics/bachem-natter.jpg


http://wilhelm-aerospace.org/Photos/grand-tour-2003/132-natter-business.jpg

http://www.rb-29.net/HTML/04.PAAvtnArt/PAShowScans/LateAdditions5/Natters.gif

Feathered_IV
07-07-2009, 12:00 AM
Thats the "Lerche" we should have had.

BillSwagger
07-07-2009, 12:28 AM
i hate it!

in fact,


-10 for posting it.

Kettenhunde
07-07-2009, 02:42 AM
The plane pilots hated the most was the enemy airplane parked on their six.

Freiwillige
07-07-2009, 07:48 AM
The ME-163 Komet had a bad tendency to blow up or just melt the pilot on landing. Was not to popular but had great flight characteristics.

jamesblonde1979
07-07-2009, 11:16 AM
The P-51 was pretty unpopular, unforgiving and no stall warning together with it's tendency to jam it's guns in a high G turn made it a plane that had a lot of USAAF guys wishing they had stuck with their P-47/38's.

staticline1
07-07-2009, 11:28 AM
Originally posted by jamesblonde1979:
The P-51 was pretty unpopular, unforgiving and no stall warning together with it's tendency to jam it's guns in a high G turn made it a plane that had a lot of USAAF guys wishing they had stuck with their P-47/38's.

The guns jamming was in the B/C models and was fixed in the D models. It was the result of the way the guns were placed in the wings on an angle, as for the pilots most I've heard, read of or talked to loved it.

M_Gunz
07-07-2009, 01:19 PM
The P-51 was pretty unpopular, unforgiving and no stall warning together with it's tendency to jam it's guns in a high G turn made it a plane that had a lot of USAAF guys wishing they had stuck with their P-47/38's.

Flashy lure like that, you should expect it to get spit out before you can set the hook ya'know?

Viper2005_
07-07-2009, 01:33 PM
Originally posted by ROXunreal:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by danjama:
A pilot should always love his plane.

Kinda hard to do when it's underpowered and turns like a zeppelin. I'm playing a LaGG campaign right now and that plane is horrible in dogfights. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sounds just like the Cessna 150 I used to fly...

Bremspropeller
07-07-2009, 01:50 PM
The ME-163 Komet had a bad tendency to blow up or just melt the pilot on landing. Was not to popular but had great flight characteristics.

Strange, all pilots I heard of, loved that lil sob.

BillSwagger
07-07-2009, 02:04 PM
Its a well known fact pilots were not happy with the P-47, at first.
If you could imagine going from a Spitfire to a P-47B/C.
The roll of air to air combat was changing, and design advantages were steering away from turn and burn and reaching towards speed and altitude.
I think looking back at this, the transition is easy to see and comprehend, but in the 1940s, many pilots and engineers had to discover these tactics before they were seen as an advantage.


The Ki-44 is another such aircraft that underwent the same scrutiny.
Pilots were used to flying slower, tight turning, maneuverable planes.
The Ki-44 was the first Japanese plane designed for speed and climb, not maneuverability.

shotdownski
07-07-2009, 07:20 PM
Gotta stand up for the P-39. One other American pilot liked the aircraft, though maybe love-hate is a better description.

Check out "Nanette: Her Pilot's Love Story" by Parks Edwards. Really good read.

Cheers

M_Gunz
07-07-2009, 08:16 PM
Originally posted by BillSwagger:
Its a well known fact pilots were not happy with the P-47, at first.
If you could imagine going from a Spitfire to a P-47B/C.


There were pilots who trained in the P-47 before going to war that really loved the thing.
It's never as easy to unlearn one while learning another as it is starting off right from go.
That's what messed up a lot of P-39 pilots was ingrained habits that didn't fit the plane.

It also works in the virtual world not just from plane to plane but from patch to patch and sim to sim.
You either approach each new thing trying to find out how it works or you try and pick up differences
as you go while maybe never getting close to the "natural fit" that works best. That's not just flight
models of the planes but also the control and view methods of the sims. Look how many players from
other sims either took a long time or never picked up on trim and rudder use in IL2!

Trefle
07-07-2009, 08:28 PM
The Bf-110 was not popular as well among German day pilots from what i've read , since they also used it as a fighter in the first part of the war , but one should also say that the 110 became a favourite by the night fighter pilots later on

Also B-26 marauder (i wish we had it in game along the Catalina and TBF flyable and others for realistic PTO planeset ) was called "widow maker" in africa i've read

horseback
07-07-2009, 09:24 PM
Originally posted by BillSwagger:
Its a well known fact pilots were not happy with the P-47, at first.
If you could imagine going from a Spitfire to a P-47B/C.
The roll of air to air combat was changing, and design advantages were steering away from turn and burn and reaching towards speed and altitude.
I think looking back at this, the transition is easy to see and comprehend, but in the 1940s, many pilots and engineers had to discover these tactics before they were seen as an advantage.
The two primary groups of pilots who weren't thrilled with the transition to the P-47 were pilots who were flying, or had flown, the P-38 (78th FG in the ETO, and a few groups in the Southwest Pacific) and the 4th FG, composed of RAF/RCAF trained Eagle Squadron veterans who'd flown Spitfires.

Since all but a few of the 78th's personnel were used as reserves for the Torch groups and they were replaced with new pilots trained with the P-47 as their intended mounts, it wasn't a longstanding problem (although it did deprive the Mustang of its prettiest markings, sinc eht 78th didn't convert until November-December of 1944...).

The 4th FG however, sulked about the switch for the next year, when they managed to finagle their way into the P-51B and took off with to great success with it. TBH, they might have been just as effective if they had gotten de-Navalized Corsairs or Hellcats, as long as they weren't the P-47s that had been 'shoved down their throats' according to the former Eagles' perspective.

Most fighter pilots tend to assume that the plane that they've been picked to fly must be the best one out there, IF they've had the right type of training...

Things tend to sour if they're forced to give up a mount they trust and are satisfied with though, especially if it's radically different and seems more a matter of some brass hat's ego being gratified.

cheers

horseback

DKoor
07-10-2009, 03:17 PM
Originally posted by Mr_Zooly:
Early LaGGs were hated by the Soviet pilots, something about plastic reinforced coffins.
From the guy who flew those for, effectively, the largest part of his WW2 campaign (just saw his skin d/l page at m4t, author harpia_mafra);

The most famous pilot of the 145 IAP, then based at Murmansk on the Northern front, was Captain Leonid Galchenko, commander of the second squadron.
At the age of 29, Galchenko flew in 1939-40 war against Finland, without being involved in aerial combats.
This unit was equipped with I-16s at the age of the Operation Barbarossa; he obtained a single victory on this type.
The unit received a dozen of LaGG-3s in early August 1941. His first flight ended with a landing gear collapse while landing.
Some days later, Galchenko shot down a Ju-88 with the midnight sun in the sky. Then he started to be favourably impressed by his new aircraft.
He totalized 8 aerial victories within the end of September 1941.
Galchenko became deputy commander of 324 IAD (Fighter Aviation Division), and he received a La-5F, on whose tail he painted the cat emblem again.
He continued to fly and combat over the Arctic and on Karelia till the end of the war, totalizing 24 individual victories, plus 12 shared, in 310 sorties.

So it really boils down;

Originally posted by berg417448:
They sang that drinking song about every plane in their inventory

RAF_OldBuzzard
07-11-2009, 07:53 AM
Originally posted by ROXunreal:
Ah yes I remember reading somewhere that taking off with a B-29 was horror.

That was 'cured' not long after the '29 was put into service.

The problem was that the engines were very tightly cowled, and they were easy to overheat when on the ground. The really needed to be airborne for proper cooling.

Now, the pilots transitioning to the '29 were used to running up the engines, doing checklist's and such, all while parked, which was the worst thing you could do in that airplane.

Col. Paul Tibbets convinced them to change their habits in a pretty interesting way http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

http://www.ninety-nines.org/WWII_reunion.html

That link tells the story.

buchtik
07-13-2009, 11:36 AM
The B-26 was hated because of its forecastle undercarriage.I think also the TBD Devastator was hated because of low speed.BTW nice song,I wonder what's the melody of it.

Manu-6S
07-13-2009, 01:55 PM
Originally posted by Bearcat99:
in fact the only American pilot I ever heard about who to this day says he actually liked the P-39 was Chuck Yeager...

Of course.. he's entire name is Chuck Yeager Norris... he can fly everything better than God himself.

Xiolablu3
07-13-2009, 02:10 PM
MOst RAF pilots liked the P51 too, or so I gather from what I have read.

WTE_Galway
07-13-2009, 05:11 PM
It's sometimes relative to the situation ... the Defiant for example was a death warrant for the crew whenever used as as a dayfighter but the ability to shoot side ways, upwards or even suddenly pop up in front of a bomber and fire backwards directly into the pilots face meant it was loved by many nightfighter crews.

horseback
07-13-2009, 08:02 PM
Originally posted by Manu-6S:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bearcat99:
in fact the only American pilot I ever heard about who to this day says he actually liked the P-39 was Chuck Yeager...

Of course.. he's entire name is Chuck Yeager Norris... he can fly everything better than God himself. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Actually God could fly better than Chuck Yeager...but it would be wrong for Him to do, so He wouldn't.

Or so my pastor tells me.

cheers

horseback

WTE_Galway
07-13-2009, 08:39 PM
Originally posted by horseback:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Manu-6S:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bearcat99:
in fact the only American pilot I ever heard about who to this day says he actually liked the P-39 was Chuck Yeager...

Of course.. he's entire name is Chuck Yeager Norris... he can fly everything better than God himself. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Actually God could fly better than Chuck Yeager...but it would be wrong for Him to do, so He wouldn't.

Or so my pastor tells me.

cheers

horseback </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


If God had meant man to fly we would have all been born with variable pitch propellers.