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Tipo_Man
10-20-2006, 02:32 AM
EDIT:
Topic changed

... or it's too late and no pragrammers from Oleg's team are working on it?

I hope it will.

After every patch there is exalted crawd claiming someone's favourite aircraft performace has changed. And the usual answer from Oleg is: "We haven't touched nothing in its modelling".

But still there are discrepencies in planes performance, a lot of them can be found in the forum..

I can just name two things I consider dubious in the sim:

Yesterday I was comparing the data from IL Compare for PF version 3.02 and for PF 4.05 (Current one). Seems that a lot of planes have changed their performance.

I know it's not an accurate source of information about how plane do really perform in the sim but since the procedure of acquiring the data for it has not changed between versions, and from the fact most of the planes have the same "curves" I think it can give some information how some planes were "tuned" between
patches.


1.La-5FN/ La-7 have received a boost of 4m/s climb rate(up to 27m\s at sea level).The best recorded value I have is 24m/s. The most are about 20m/s

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b128/TipoMan/La5s.jpg

and here:
http://www.btinternet.com/~fulltilt/Perform.html#La-7%20No.%2038100869 (http://www.btinternet.com/%7Efulltilt/Perform.html#La-7%20No.%2038100869)

Yak-3 have decreased its climb rate with 2m/s.

Currently La-5FN climbs faster than Yak-3. Is this historically correct?

Alse La-5FN has increased turn performance and lower optimum turning speed.
To me it looks like it has it weight reduced with some 100kg http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

and also :
MiG-3 AM-38 in first versions of the game used to overheat very quickly. It was even written in the manual, since it used smaller radiators calculated for AM-35 engine. Now it almost never
overheats.

So , can we expect something to change?

joeap
10-20-2006, 03:11 AM
I hope so, but anyway it was only 4.05 that did not change any flight modelling, or so was the claim. All the previous 4.X versions did change something or another so just to set the record straight. Actually I looking forward to the wobble when firing on some US (especially USN planes) to be fixed, as well as some other things.

Noticed the overheat thing on the Mig-3 too. Wish it would be adjusted as well as the Tempest overheat.

Manu-6S
10-20-2006, 03:32 AM
Macchis' FM will be different, be sure http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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Tipo_Man
10-20-2006, 08:50 AM
Hmmm

I did a very simple test of climb performance.
Fully loaded La-5FN climbed to 5000meters in 4:14 min. From my first attepmpt.
The best I can find is 4,40min (4,7min). Most recorded records are about 5min...
here is some more info:
http://www.23ag.ru/html/lavochkin_statistika.html
or my own:
http://tipoman.maddsites.com/files/Soviet_Planes_with_serial_numbers.htm

Here is the track:
http://tipoman.maddsites.com/La-5FN.rar

So...

Is something going to change?

crazyivan1970
10-20-2006, 10:53 AM
Nice avatar Tipo http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

The only global change will be new joystick function that affects all planes. I`m sure there will be many other adjustments, small ones, but that`s about it.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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Tipo_Man
10-20-2006, 11:01 AM
Thanx Ivan...I couldn't think something depicting me any better http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

Considering performance.
It was nice during old times to bring data and curves and arguing to death about some missing meter per second.

I'm just compiling an interesting charts of some plane's climb rates and really got puzzled.
109G2 climbed in my tests to 5000meters in 3,5 minutes!!! The best value I know is 4,4 min (for 1,42 ATA).
La-7 has a climb rate of 20m/s at 4000-6000 meters where it should have 15-12 m/s.
Very puzzling data.
Well obviously having to tune more than thousand planes is really hard job to do.

VW-IceFire
10-20-2006, 04:25 PM
Originally posted by Tipo_Man:
Thanx Ivan...I couldn't think something depicting me any better http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

Considering performance.
It was nice during old times to bring data and curves and arguing to death about some missing meter per second.

I'm just compiling an interesting charts of some plane's climb rates and really got puzzled.
109G2 climbed in my tests to 5000meters in 3,5 minutes!!! The best value I know is 4,4 min (for 1,42 ATA).
La-7 has a climb rate of 20m/s at 4000-6000 meters where it should have 15-12 m/s.
Very puzzling data.
Well obviously having to tune more than thousand planes is really hard job to do.
Both of those planes have always been "too good" at climb rates. The La-7 has always been optimistic and so has the Bf109G-2 (don't let the interest group argue that down). But thats the way they are...they have been since the start and I'm not expecting them to change now.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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TheGozr
10-20-2006, 05:22 PM
We need fix joystick settings period .<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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WWMaxGunz
10-20-2006, 06:18 PM
Lead time on production of DVD's is too long for changes to happen now.
Who knows with ALL the tracks sent in just what you get on that.
One patch to add some planes after.

We will see the final state and some will say 'the work is done, this is what was intended'
while others will say 'it was supposed to be perfect the whole time but it changes!'.
WTF, it was never and will never be perfect. We have a work in progress so far. Do you
really expect table-based number matching from a physics-based flight sim? You match data
at some points then the rest will be 'off' unless you have many months per plane to spend.

VFA-195 Snacky
10-23-2006, 12:13 AM
don't waist time on the LA7, just fix the P51<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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Vipez-
10-24-2006, 03:28 AM
What's exactly wrong with it? Apart from small wobble issue..<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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Manu-6S
10-24-2006, 03:51 AM
Originally posted by Vipez-:
What's exactly wrong with it? Apart from small wobble issue..

Propaganda? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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HayateAce
10-24-2006, 09:53 AM
Originally posted by Vipez-:
What's exactly wrong with it? Apart from small wobble issue..

Um, hello?

You've got wobble, your hit percentage goes down. Pretty important "small" issue, hey?<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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Chivas
10-24-2006, 12:29 PM
It will be very interesting to see how all aircraft handle with the changed joystick implementation. I'm sure there will be a few screams of porked FM's. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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FA_Whisky
10-24-2006, 12:32 PM
whats currently wrong with the P51....

The wings fall off real easy, but that can also be a joystick input problem; a little pulse so the plane seems to pull over 15g's for a millisec.
Compared to other planes(La7, Spit) it is not a energy fighter. But than can also be because the other more T&B planes keep a little to much energy in turns.
Personnally I think the P51 is the best modelled plane in the game. Its are some of the others that are a bit off.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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Manu-6S
10-24-2006, 04:21 PM
One of my latest post:


I've bought a Saitek X-52 to replace my old Logitech joy. I'm still not using my pc since it's without videocard, so I've tried my new toy with my friend's pc.

I set up all joy inputs at 100, with no deadzones nor filters and I tried a P51 that, using my old joystick, I knew it was instable.

Surprising I have no more wobbles.

So I took 2 average G6s as targets to test 0.50cal.

Ther result was exactly what I see on old guncameras against german planes. With a two seconds burst my target started to smoke from engine, another burst and I saw a fuel trail (white smoke).

And I shooted from 300m... not the famous <200m for make MGs working.

The same with the AI wingman. They still keep flying, but I really think that a real pilot should disengage.

The only annoying issue was the constant need of trimming that this plane deserves: but we know it's historically correct.


Originally posted by FA_Whisky:
Compared to other planes(La7, Spit) it is not a energy fighter. But than can also be because the other more T&B planes keep a little to much energy in turns.
Personnally I think the P51 is the best modelled plane in the game. Its are some of the others that are a bit off.

You said La7, Spit (and I add bf109G2)... we know they are overmodelled, but you can't still compare P51 with these planes... P51 was an escort plane, not a dogfighter like the ones above.

Yes, I agree with you: P51 is one of the best modelled planes (with Dora)... the over sensivity of the pitch axis is its only issue.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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aklabo
10-31-2006, 08:58 AM
Hi guys
Ya I like news about new joystic config. hopefully closer to realisum . I always try moust realistic settinng of my joyst. But def. setting is so lose ( most guys using it ).
On line is no go to use it .
Klabo_71st

Philipscdrw
10-31-2006, 02:33 PM
Of course there were changes between 3.02 and 4.05... the reason they called an earlier patch 'v4.00m' instead of 'v3.05m' was because THEY MADE A MAJOR UPGRADE TO THE ENTIRE FLIGHT MODEL, a prototype for BoB!<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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VW-IceFire
10-31-2006, 02:58 PM
Originally posted by Vipez-:
What's exactly wrong with it? Apart from small wobble issue..
Unfortunately the wobble issue is fairly significant in terms of aiming, and attempting to score a kill on a maneuvering target. I even got pretty good offline with the P-51, but when I go online the wobble kills it...I can't track an evasive 109 or 190 like I can in a P-47, P-38, Spitfire, Tempest, P-40, and so forth.

The wing break issue seems to be something of a problem too although its avoidable...it may also be overdone. But we've been having that argument for years. The wobble is newer.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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VFA-195 Snacky
11-02-2006, 12:06 PM
P51 was an escort plane, not a dogfighter like the ones above.

Hate to burst your bubble, but the P51 was a dogifghter just like the P38 and the P47. F4U corsairs escorted B29s in the pacific. That doesn't mean the Corsair was an escort plane.

The Mustang in this game is porked and probably will never be fixed. It's not very high on the priority list. They have to get the VTOL lawnmowers flying first. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif




Originally posted by Manu-6S:
One of my latest post:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I've bought a Saitek X-52 to replace my old Logitech joy. I'm still not using my pc since it's without videocard, so I've tried my new toy with my friend's pc.

I set up all joy inputs at 100, with no deadzones nor filters and I tried a P51 that, using my old joystick, I knew it was instable.

Surprising I have no more wobbles.

So I took 2 average G6s as targets to test 0.50cal.

Ther result was exactly what I see on old guncameras against german planes. With a two seconds burst my target started to smoke from engine, another burst and I saw a fuel trail (white smoke).

And I shooted from 300m... not the famous <200m for make MGs working.

The same with the AI wingman. They still keep flying, but I really think that a real pilot should disengage.

The only annoying issue was the constant need of trimming that this plane deserves: but we know it's historically correct.


Originally posted by FA_Whisky:
Compared to other planes(La7, Spit) it is not a energy fighter. But than can also be because the other more T&B planes keep a little to much energy in turns.
Personnally I think the P51 is the best modelled plane in the game. Its are some of the others that are a bit off.

You said La7, Spit (and I add bf109G2)... we know they are overmodelled, but you can't still compare P51 with these planes... P51 was an escort plane, not a dogfighter like the ones above.

Yes, I agree with you: P51 is one of the best modelled planes (with Dora)... the over sensivity of the pitch axis is its only issue. </div></BLOCKQUOTE><div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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OMK_Hand
11-02-2006, 03:35 PM
O.K. No big deal, just a casual test:

Shockwave wings of power P51D via Flight simX vs. PF 4.05 P51D.

Clean, full fuel, no weather.
46" boost, 2700 rpm, a trimmed climb when stable from zero to 10,000' at 175 mph

FlightsimX: 4 minutes 28 seconds.
PF: 4 minutes 41 seconds.

Combat diving turn at edge of stall, 61" boost, 3000 rpm at 10,000':

FlightsimX: 20 seconds
PF: 24 seconds.

They are both very similar, and both need a gentle hand and high speed to do their thing.
Thought this was interesting.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

OMK_Handsome

Keep the Faith.

WWMaxGunz
11-02-2006, 05:37 PM
What D model? For both sims.
Does full fuel in the FS P-51D include the rear tank or is that an extra fuel load?

WWMaxGunz
11-02-2006, 05:41 PM
Originally posted by FA_Whisky:
whats currently wrong with the P51....

The wings fall off real easy, but that can also be a joystick input problem; a little pulse so the plane seems to pull over 15g's for a millisec.

Use Filter slider on the sensitivity sliders screen and it will filter the spikes.

JamesBlonde888
11-02-2006, 08:51 PM
Wobble issues or do you need a cure for the DT's???<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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FA_Whisky
11-03-2006, 09:52 AM
Use Filter slider on the sensitivity sliders screen and it will filter the spikes.

Not really. Can still brake the wings of a P51 even with full filter. I find the filter also a bit weird. It seems to filter the joy input after you have set the sensitivity and not before.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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WWMaxGunz
11-04-2006, 06:11 AM
It filters spikes, not bad flying.

You have enough pitch authority and lift to pull over 14G's at speed.
That's a choice, not a problem -- unless you get ham handed like in the heat of action.

Filter makes your moves smoother if you use enough.

OMK_Hand
11-05-2006, 05:40 AM
Hi WWMaxGunz.

Regarding the Shockwave 'D', they don't specify a model in their literature that I can see, which is poor, but it has the Packard-Merlin V-1650-7 engine, and what appears to be a K-14 Gunsight, so I compared it to the PF P51D-20-NA.

The fuel was full internal, using 100% in all available tanks, as for PF.

Just a casual comparison. I'm always curious when people say planes are porked.

I can't get the P51 to break unless I get into trying to manoeuvre at the 500 MPH mark, either indicated or true, at any altitude. That's pretty fast going, so I'm not surprised something falls off.

Another thing I don't get, is my joystick is 100 across the board, with no filtering, and it's great...

I bought Flightsim X, the first version of flight sim I've owned, to practise crosswind landings and ditching, ready for BoB http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
I've bought a few warplanes from various developers to keep it interesting, and am impressed at the similarities in handling between different types, when comparing Microsoft's new, state-of-the-art (?) sim with PF.
All things considered, I think that someone at maddox games is doing something right...<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

OMK_Handsome

Keep the Faith.

FA_Whisky
11-10-2006, 09:38 AM
You have enough pitch authority and lift to pull over 14G's at speed.

But how come the pilot does not black out? Not even a tiny little bit of black screen at 650kph when you do lose a wing at sealevel<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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TgD Thunderbolt56
11-10-2006, 10:47 AM
I hope it just gets harder... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/touche.gif<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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JG52Karaya-X
11-11-2006, 07:07 AM
Originally posted by FA_Whisky:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">You have enough pitch authority and lift to pull over 14G's at speed.

But how come the pilot does not black out? Not even a tiny little bit of black screen at 650kph when you do lose a wing at sealevel </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well I don't know if this helps but there is no "instant" blackout IRL as the human body only reacts slowly to changes of gravity. A blackout/redout is caused by blood flowing massively from or to the head of the individuum and this process takes some time...

Ingame the P51 wingshed is mainly a problem because of the too high elevator authority at high speeds and/or the lack of compression. Thank the whiners for it!<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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NonWonderDog
11-11-2006, 10:01 AM
Your head has about 3 seconds worth of oxygen in it, no matter how high a G load you're under. Once you use up that oxygen, higher G will make you black out faster due to the lower blood pressure. Above ~9 G you just go immediately unconscious after your few seconds of cerebral ischemic anoxia. (I love stupid medical terms.)

This is true all the way up until 50 G or however much it is that causes a concussion.

OMK_Hand
11-11-2006, 11:16 AM
Interesting.
If you don't keep an eye on the clock, there is a clear buffet that will tell you you're in the "Oh Sh**t!" zone.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

OMK_Handsome

Keep the Faith.

WWMaxGunz
11-13-2006, 06:37 AM
IRL you can put enough stress on a structure to break it without accelerating the whole
structure. IRL it only matters of the force excessive. How many times has say a handle
on something that normally can drag the object around been broken off by a quick blow
without moving the object itself much at all?

Come on... hands up that have seen or done that! Hoot if you cursed!

Te_Vigo
11-25-2006, 11:02 AM
I suppose you could always turn "Headshake" off...it's a tradeoff/ compromise switch anyhows.

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GR142-Pipper
11-26-2006, 02:10 PM
Originally posted by FA_Whisky:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">You have enough pitch authority and lift to pull over 14G's at speed.

But how come the pilot does not black out? Not even a tiny little bit of black screen at 650kph when you do lose a wing at sealevel </div></BLOCKQUOTE>It's because you're traveling through another dimension -- a dimension not only of sight and sound but of mind. A journey into a fantasy land whose boundaries are that of a programmer's imagination. That's a signpost up ahead: your next stop: the Oleg Zone! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

GR142-Pipper

joeap
11-26-2006, 03:12 PM
Originally posted by GR142-Pipper:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by FA_Whisky:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">You have enough pitch authority and lift to pull over 14G's at speed.

But how come the pilot does not black out? Not even a tiny little bit of black screen at 650kph when you do lose a wing at sealevel </div></BLOCKQUOTE>It's because you're traveling through another dimension -- a dimension not only of sight and sound but of mind. A journey into a fantasy land whose boundaries are that of a programmer's imagination. That's a signpost up ahead: your next stop: the Oleg Zone! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

GR142-Pipper </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No I think you're in Pipper-land. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif Didn't even read the other posts outside your universe.

Recon_609IAP
11-27-2006, 08:06 PM
This wobble on the p51 - it's a great injustice to what was a steady and good aircraft.

To not adjust this would be a real shame. To think that it would go left unnoticed by 1C is another shame.

I think it shows the priority when we get some sort of space invaders aircraft in '46 but still can't get the p51 FM correct.

I sure hope I'm wrong and it was addressed. Perhaps I just assumed this would be addressed, to think it isn't is, again, a real shame.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

S!
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VMF-214_HaVoK
11-27-2006, 09:32 PM
Originally posted by Manu-6S:



You said La7, Spit (and I add bf109G2)... we know they are overmodelled, but you can't still compare P51 with these planes... P51 was an escort plane, not a dogfighter like the ones above.

Yes, I agree with you: P51 is one of the best modelled planes (with Dora)... the over sensivity of the pitch axis is its only issue.

Man am I so sick of hearing this "P-51 was an escort plane not a dog fighter" This is the most ridiculous statement. What exactly you thing the Mustangs job was while escorting? To engage enemy fighters maybe? Tell Bud Anderson and others it wasnt a dog fighter Im sure they will disagree.

A lot of fighters filled the escort for a reason...because they could defend themselves and the bombers. BF-109s escorted HE-111s! Does this mean they were not dog fighters? Starting thinking rational instead of biased. And the use of a little common sense once in awhile goes a long way.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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VMF-214_HaVoK
11-27-2006, 09:40 PM
Originally posted by JG52Karaya-X:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by FA_Whisky:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">You have enough pitch authority and lift to pull over 14G's at speed.

But how come the pilot does not black out? Not even a tiny little bit of black screen at 650kph when you do lose a wing at sealevel </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well I don't know if this helps but there is no "instant" blackout IRL as the human body only reacts slowly to changes of gravity. A blackout/redout is caused by blood flowing massively from or to the head of the individuum and this process takes some time...

Ingame the P51 wingshed is mainly a problem because of the too high elevator authority at high speeds and/or the lack of compression. Thank the whiners for it! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The Mustang is well documented in having extremely responsive controls. And no need to thank whiners since it has been modeled this way since Oleg included into this sim. You could thank history and facts though.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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VMF-214_HaVoK
11-27-2006, 09:41 PM
Originally posted by GR142-Pipper:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by FA_Whisky:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">You have enough pitch authority and lift to pull over 14G's at speed.

But how come the pilot does not black out? Not even a tiny little bit of black screen at 650kph when you do lose a wing at sealevel </div></BLOCKQUOTE>It's because you're traveling through another dimension -- a dimension not only of sight and sound but of mind. A journey into a fantasy land whose boundaries are that of a programmer's imagination. That's a signpost up ahead: your next stop: the Oleg Zone! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

GR142-Pipper </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

I think Oleg and crew do a pretty good job but that was damn funny!<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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GR142Pipper
11-28-2006, 11:17 AM
Originally posted by joeap:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by GR142-Pipper:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by FA_Whisky:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">You have enough pitch authority and lift to pull over 14G's at speed.

But how come the pilot does not black out? Not even a tiny little bit of black screen at 650kph when you do lose a wing at sealevel </div></BLOCKQUOTE>It's because you're traveling through another dimension -- a dimension not only of sight and sound but of mind. A journey into a fantasy land whose boundaries are that of a programmer's imagination. That's a signpost up ahead: your next stop: the Oleg Zone! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

GR142-Pipper </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No I think you're in Pipper-land. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif Didn't even read the other posts outside your universe. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Ah, so you think that the pilot won't have any indication that his wings will sheer. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif You'll fit right in at the Oleg Zone. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

GR142-Pipper

DIRTY-MAC
11-28-2006, 01:10 PM
well if you heard about the "new" flightstick inprovment in the next patch,(that should fix most highspeed turning things) maybe you shouldnt Whine about the mustang allready, it will probably be "fixed" http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif dont make this a Mustang saddy thread http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/shady.gif<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

Otto may have been a weirdo, but he was a dam good fighterpilot.
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aka HOOTCHIE MAMA online

WWMaxGunz
11-29-2006, 12:49 AM
Majority of FM whiners can't seperate handling from flight model anyway.
Witness the first time Oleg posted stick settings and how many changed tune w/o any patch.
Mistake of Maddox Games was to not include new default settings with 1.04 in 2002 but the
forum results only highlighted why it was a mistake.

RamsteinUSA
12-01-2006, 11:42 AM
Many of us USA pilots are still in shock and dismay how Oleg and all those involved could have not fix the blunder in the US aircraft. I cannot 'rant' becuase some people ar elss than happy when I start showing my anger.. , or call it hight level pissedness....

Asking ht epowers that be to Please. Please, show some repsect for the US pilots and ix the FM/DM problems.

We also have backing with information on the problems and fixed the problems from a actual pilot who flew WWII planes and worked as anengineer after leaving the Navy.

4.08 is the last chance to right serious wrongs. Many of us just get depressed when when love to fly the sim and time and time again fly deeply flawed US acraft that can be fixed if Oleg and his company just repsected us a bit and fixed those problems. At meeet us half -way. We asked this long before 4.05 and 4.08 will finish it off the Simulation journals will forever show this as history so this problem cuts both ways.
Would 1C like to be left with this in History forever? A country of 300 million and winner of WWII slighted by a stubborn Combat Flight Simulator Creator from Russia who modelled USA Aircaft wrong? The Same Aircraft who won WWII now are deeply flawed in a revised history by the same country it was an ally with.

Brain32
12-01-2006, 12:27 PM
Serious candidate for funniest post ever.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

This is my sig http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

crazyivan1970
12-01-2006, 01:14 PM
Woaaa<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

V!
Regards,

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Nimits
12-01-2006, 04:53 PM
I think (hope) the USN recoil yaw is one of the promised fixes for 4.07/4.08.

I second RamsteinUSA's post, in spirit at least, though. 4.04m screwed up the USN/USMC fighters big time. And since that is mostly what I fly, well, I was not happy. The good thing is I did take time out to learn to fly some other birds a little better (namely the SBD, P-40, P-39, and P-38), and spent most of my "Grumman time" shooting carrier traps (I finally got pretty good at those), but I will be very happy once this bug is resolved . . . of course, if somehow this slips through the cracks . . . well, let us just say I would be very happen. I do not expect that to happen, however. Anyway, there is no use worrying over a problem that has not occured, yet . . .

RamsteinUSA
12-02-2006, 02:07 PM
Originally posted by Nimits:
I think (hope) the USN recoil yaw is one of the promised fixes for 4.07/4.08.

I second RamsteinUSA's post, in spirit at least, though. 4.04m screwed up the USN/USMC fighters big time. And since that is mostly what I fly, well, I was not happy. The good thing is I did take time out to learn to fly some other birds a little better (namely the SBD, P-40, P-39, and P-38), and spent most of my "Grumman time" shooting carrier traps (I finally got pretty good at those), but I will be very happy once this bug is resolved . . . of course, if somehow this slips through the cracks . . . well, let us just say I would be very happen. I do not expect that to happen, however. Anyway, there is no use worrying over a problem that has not occured, yet . . .

One of our squad member flew Hellcat's off carriers int he US navy. He has told us what is wrong with the planes, and not only in simple terms but in engineering terms. he and a few others have tried to communicate the problems to Oleg, but most of it fell on deaf ears. Same with the othe rplanes, all the engineering and FM/DM fell on deaf ears.

msalama
12-03-2006, 02:20 AM
...and not only in simple terms but in engineering terms.

Care to give us a short summary on this?<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hippies FTW!

RamsteinUSA
12-03-2006, 12:58 PM
I would rather not do it myself, but can ask him to. I am not going to copy and paste his info without his permissions. I am not sure if he wants to continue the fight, and it will only become banter in forums. But I can pass it on. I am afraid he will also think it a waste of his time in the forum though, something he has tired of, as we all. I'll try to ask him when I see him. I warn you though these are engineering terms and will bore most of you guys to tears. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif

actionhank1786
12-03-2006, 10:13 PM
Originally posted by RamsteinUSA:
I would rather not do it myself, but can ask him to. I am not going to copy and paste his info without his permissions. I am not sure if he wants to continue the fight, and it will only become banter in forums. But I can pass it on. I am afraid he will also think it a waste of his time in the forum though, something he has tired of, as we all. I'll try to ask him when I see him. I warn you though these are engineering terms and will bore most of you guys to tears. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif

I'd be interested in being bored to tears.
If it puts me to sleep, more power to it!<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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"I never had a problem running CF3. It just sucked "

"CFS2 was excellent for its time. CFS3 was an an unfinished pile of poop perpetrated on the flight sim community." Sky chimp

"Those are not slats, Ray Charles if he were alive, could see that they are leading edge flaps.

Slats are so 1940's"
Reisen

Actionhank
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RamsteinUSA
12-04-2006, 12:57 PM
At this time there is a push on with the flight model data being sent to Oleg, to persuade him to fix these egregious errors. Again. For at least 2 US planes. So I will not compromise this push by getting these people to post it in this forum. It is going through direct channels. I am jumping up and down.. happy. Well, atually I can't jump. having disabled body and all... But I am kinda freaking out seeing some hope.. Stay tuned...


http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/clap.gif<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

Disabled USAF Veteran

Charlielamb
12-05-2006, 08:17 AM
Good Luck Ramstein,

I am not a US citizen but do not have to be to relate to and understand your passion for this subject !.

You seem to be already doing everything that you reasonably can (and I also hope the Italian petitions and data submissions have some kind of effect also.)

I really doubt this is a 'conspiracy' or as a result of deliberate bias as attempts have been made to improve and fix across the board in the past.

Keep up the pressure and keep sending the data...I hope it produces a result.

rnzoli
12-05-2006, 09:17 AM
Originally posted by Nimits:
I think (hope) the USN recoil yaw is one of the promised fixes for 4.07/4.08.
bird_brain received a short e-mail from 1C that the asymmetric recoil will be fixed in 4.06 version. The solution was a simple one - balanced grouping of high and low ROF guns on the wings. Getting overall stability issues into the picture may have been a mistake from the start. Sometimes when you talk to a time-restricted developer, less means more.

Link to info:

Gun Yaw Problem ... Answer from Oleg!
http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/23110283/m/516...161066754#5161066754 (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/23110283/m/5161066754?r=5161066754#5161066754)<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

A "world's first": fully automatic, dedicated COOP server controller. Features and available servers here (http://web.t-online.hu/rnzoli/IL2DSC/intro-coop.html).
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RamsteinUSA
12-05-2006, 12:23 PM
The Wildcat navy planes in this sim have severe stall problems which is very very wrong in this sim, and the engineering and real life pilot examples (some from an ex navy Pilot who flew these planes) with supporting document are being compiled and sent to the approgriate people. Also working on other problems with another planes or 2 and those supporting documents are also being readied. It takes time to get them in the proper shape to make the right people understand and fix. As asking them to fix the problems is not enough. I have no clue if they will reach the right people on time, but the people doing this are trying to get it done ASAP. I am very happy, as I said before, but am very worried as we have no clue what timeline we have to meet, as no one every gave us one, or even agreed to fix the problems. We are very lucky to have people with the experience and information to complile and fortitude to fight for these agregise errors to be fixed before it's to late.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

Disabled USAF Veteran

rnzoli
12-05-2006, 01:47 PM
to fight for these agregise errors to be fixed Fighting the former game developers? Doesn't sound like a good plan to me. It will probably do more harm than good... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

A "world's first": fully automatic, dedicated COOP server controller. Features and available servers here (http://web.t-online.hu/rnzoli/IL2DSC/intro-coop.html).
http://web.t-online.hu/rnzoli/IL2DSC/the_full_difficulty_COOP_server.JPG (http://web.t-online.hu/rnzoli/IL2DSC/intro-coop.html)

slipBall
12-05-2006, 02:25 PM
Originally posted by RamsteinUSA:
The Wildcat navy planes in this sim have severe stall problems which is very very wrong in this sim, and the engineering and real life pilot examples (some from an ex navy Pilot who flew these planes) with supporting document are being compiled and sent to the approgriate people. Also working on other problems with another planes or 2 and those supporting documents are also being readied. It takes time to get them in the proper shape to make the right people understand and fix. As asking them to fix the problems is not enough. I have no clue if they will reach the right people on time, but the people doing this are trying to get it done ASAP. I am very happy, as I said before, but am very worried as we have no clue what timeline we have to meet, as no one every gave us one, or even agreed to fix the problems. We are very lucky to have people with the experience and information to complile and fortitude to fight for these agregise errors to be fixed before it's to late.


I am curious of the stall complaint....does it stall to easily?....I had trouble getting it to stall....it was only when I used alot of stick, then she would stall<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f394/SlipBall/orders.jpg

Nimits
12-05-2006, 05:49 PM
Well, I have alwasy felt the F6F in this game was too ready and willing to stall and spin, and that full flaps and gear stall speed was too high in game. I had never considered anything majorily wrong with the Wildcat other than the speed differences between the F4F-3, F4F-4, and FM-2 were off (F4F-3 was marginally faster than the F4F-4, and the FM-2 was considerably faster than both of them in real life).

La7_brook
12-06-2006, 04:02 AM
Originally posted by RamsteinUSA:
I would rather not do it myself, but can ask him to. I am not going to copy and paste his info without his permissions. I am not sure if he wants to continue the fight, and it will only become banter in forums. But I can pass it on. I am afraid he will also think it a waste of his time in the forum though, something he has tired of, as we all. I'll try to ask him when I see him. I warn you though these are engineering terms and will bore most of you guys to tears. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif ok had your say now lets all get back too the real planes the 190 and the 109 then http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

slipBall
12-06-2006, 12:54 PM
Originally posted by Nimits:
Well, I have alwasy felt the F6F in this game was too ready and willing to stall and spin, and that full flaps and gear stall speed was too high in game. I had never considered anything majorily wrong with the Wildcat other than the speed differences between the F4F-3, F4F-4, and FM-2 were off (F4F-3 was marginally faster than the F4F-4, and the FM-2 was considerably faster than both of them in real life).


I see...thanks, I was curious...I've not had the time to experience in detail, all the great aircraft in this sim<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f394/SlipBall/orders.jpg

VFA-195 Snacky
12-10-2006, 04:45 AM
This same thing happened to =353=MonroeQ who flew the P47 during the war. He doesn't even fly with us online anymore unless it's a coop because the flight models of the American planes are so far off.

I remember him making the statement on comms about P47s and P51s doing these flippy flop flat spins. "P47 doesn't flat spin."

Personally i don't know if the issues with the P51 are that of this center tank being full and changing the COG or what, but I would really like to be able to control where I put my fuel. That or get rid of the center tank completely. These maps aren't big enough to need all that fuel anyway so just take that stupid center tank out of the Mustang.


Originally posted by RamsteinUSA:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Nimits:
I think (hope) the USN recoil yaw is one of the promised fixes for 4.07/4.08.

I second RamsteinUSA's post, in spirit at least, though. 4.04m screwed up the USN/USMC fighters big time. And since that is mostly what I fly, well, I was not happy. The good thing is I did take time out to learn to fly some other birds a little better (namely the SBD, P-40, P-39, and P-38), and spent most of my "Grumman time" shooting carrier traps (I finally got pretty good at those), but I will be very happy once this bug is resolved . . . of course, if somehow this slips through the cracks . . . well, let us just say I would be very happen. I do not expect that to happen, however. Anyway, there is no use worrying over a problem that has not occured, yet . . .

One of our squad member flew Hellcat's off carriers int he US navy. He has told us what is wrong with the planes, and not only in simple terms but in engineering terms. he and a few others have tried to communicate the problems to Oleg, but most of it fell on deaf ears. Same with the othe rplanes, all the engineering and FM/DM fell on deaf ears. </div></BLOCKQUOTE><div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://us.st11.yimg.com/us.st.yimg.com/I/airplanepictures_1918_16003860

RamsteinUSA
12-10-2006, 02:19 PM
There is a push on, as I stated in other threads to get some fixes in. Some of the information is being sent through proper channels. It's really up to 'The Powers That Be' to make sure that some wrongs are fixed... not much we can do but explain what we know... and hope like hell the USA and Land Lease AirCraft that have bad problems get fixed...
After the last patch History will have recorded the product for it's greatness and flaws forever.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

Disabled USAF Veteran

Jaws2002
12-10-2006, 02:54 PM
Originally posted by RamsteinUSA:
The Wildcat navy planes in this sim have severe stall problems which is very very wrong in this sim, and the engineering and real life pilot examples (some from an ex navy Pilot who flew these planes) with supporting document are being compiled and sent to the approgriate people. Also working on other problems with another planes or 2 and those supporting documents are also being readied. It takes time to get them in the proper shape to make the right people understand and fix. As asking them to fix the problems is not enough. I have no clue if they will reach the right people on time, but the people doing this are trying to get it done ASAP. I am very happy, as I said before, but am very worried as we have no clue what timeline we have to meet, as no one every gave us one, or even agreed to fix the problems. We are very lucky to have people with the experience and information to complile and fortitude to fight for these agregise errors to be fixed before it's to late.


If you have problems with flying the Wildcat I think is your flying ruther then the plane.

Is my favorite navy bird.
In the Winds of War server they have it on the desert map and you fly it together with Spitfires mkV and P-40's against machis 202 and BF-109F4's.
Every time I can join red I fly the Wildcat, and i tell you that thing can fight against the nimble 109 and machis with no problems. I shot a lot of 109's with it on that map. Doesn't matter, Z&B or plain old turnfight it can fight.

For a change why don't you install Target Rabaul and see what the Wildcat is like there?

You won't like it.

Seriously, if you think Wildcat sucks in this game ........ http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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SeaFireLIV
12-10-2006, 03:09 PM
I can`t believe this nationalistic `Teh P51 is porked` stuff has started up all over again! I thought we`d killed that argument a year ago!!!<div class="ev_tpc_signature">


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faustnik
12-10-2006, 06:49 PM
Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:
I can`t believe this nationalistic `Teh P51 is porked` stuff has started up all over again! I thought we`d killed that argument a year ago!!!

It's not all nationalistic cr4p Seafire, there are some ligitimate questions there. Unfortunately, it gets lost in all the rediculous exaggeration. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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WWMaxGunz
12-10-2006, 07:26 PM
You can't kill an undead whine. It was never alive to begin with and has no heart to stake
nor head to chop off. Even Stephen King flinches from the horror of the moaning death.

onebox33
12-13-2006, 02:22 PM
Originally posted by WWMaxGunz:
You can't kill an undead whine. It was never alive to begin with and has no heart to stake
nor head to chop off. Even Stephen King flinches from the horror of the moaning death.

OT ---- Hi Max, what do you think about new mc205 rollrate?
I said to you that the old one was wrong but you bad boy didn't believe me... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
eheheh now you have the PROOF http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif

lbhkilla
12-13-2006, 08:55 PM
Not trying to discount the opinions of people who really flew these things on either side, but I think the fact that we can pull full 50lbs on the stick in all planes at all times with no G effects disorienting us and no fatigue has a big effect on how they think planes in the game don't respond like they did in their memory 50 years ago. Just my $.02.

heywooood
12-13-2006, 09:04 PM
the Mustang as modeled has an anvil instead of a fuselage main fuel tank. It flies like a boat anchor.

teh P-51D won teh war...the other variants carried its robes and sceptre.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v250/heywooood/afewofTheFew-1.jpg

A few of The Few

WOLFMondo
12-14-2006, 12:13 AM
Originally posted by WWMaxGunz:
It filters spikes, not bad flying.

You have enough pitch authority and lift to pull over 14G's at speed.
That's a choice, not a problem -- unless you get ham handed like in the heat of action.

Filter makes your moves smoother if you use enough.

Its what I've said for a long long time and still the 'P51 won teh war' crowd ignore it.

Reducing sensitivity and your input curve on the elevator on the P51 in this sim removes any chance of you removing your wings or flopping the P51 about.

Shame they don't listen but keep on whining.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

Cheers!!

WOLFMondo
12-14-2006, 12:16 AM
Originally posted by RamsteinUSA:
Many of us USA pilots are still in shock and dismay how Oleg and all those involved could have not fix the blunder in the US aircraft. I cannot 'rant' becuase some people ar elss than happy when I start showing my anger.. , or call it hight level pissedness....
.

Many are shocked and dismayed just how many people complain about planes in this sim but never produce on single bit of evidence or data, other than pilot annecdotes to back it up with.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

Cheers!!

ivankuturkokoff
12-14-2006, 02:26 PM
An interesting publication is the Report to the joint fighter conference. Its published by Schifer. A very technical look at the WWII fighter. In one section all the pilots flew all of the aeroplanes and reported on them using an agreed common procedure.

Its fascinating the different ratings given to the fighters. Two pilots fly the same aeroplane, one grades it as the best in its class the other grades at as mediocre.

Just like here http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Data rather than fading memories is the better way to go imo.

Nimits
12-14-2006, 07:48 PM
You said La7, Spit (and I add bf109G2)... we know they are overmodelled, but you can't still compare P51 with these planes... P51 was an escort plane, not a dogfighter like the ones above.

The fact that the P-51 was used as an escort fighter by the 8th Air Force proves nothing about its design. The A6M2-21 and A6M3-22 had extremely long rangee and were often used as an escort for Japanese bombers, yet were some of the most manuverable aircraft in the world and were as good or better at dogfighting than their contemporary opponents.

The P-51 was originally designed as a medium altitude air superiorty with a secondary ground attack role as a competitor to the P-40 and in direct response to the Spitfire Mk I and Bf-109E. The P-51's long range made it very suitable for the escort role, but it was not a purpose-built escort fighter and in fact it served in every role possible for a single engined fighter. In the Med, A-36s (P-51As with dive brakes) were used as dive bombers, the 9th Air Force used them primarily as ground attack aircraft, and in the Pacific they were veritable Jack of all trades.

People look at the long legs of the P-51 and tend to associate it the Me-110 or Ki-45, both designed as long range, heavily armed escort fighters that ended up with too much weight in guns, gas, and armor and too little manuverability. The P-51, like almost all American fighter aircraft was designed as an air superiority/pursuit (e.g. interceptor). Only the US Navy actually invested serious thought in the concept of using its figters as bomber escorts, either technically or doctrinally.

Anyway, the P-51 probably is not the best turn fighter out there, but it was not some sort of overweight "dog" of an escort fighter, and should be able to more or less hold its own with any other fighter out there. The real problem, in game, of course, is that the fuel tanks and CG modelling is off (e.g. the rear tank, which was supposed to be drained first and before any combat manuvering, drains equally with all other tanks in game), so that the P-51 is always going to be artificially handicapped. If perhaps they could alter the P-51 FM to model the CG as if the rear tank had already been drained (even when it was full), that would give the P-51 its historical combat performance (though the 100% fuel handling would then be off).

harryklein66
12-15-2006, 07:35 AM
Maybe they could make a P-51 E(mpty with less than 21gal in the fuselage tank) in the AC selection,
like we have L variants for some other planes.

So we could choose between the full or empty depending on if you're flying a long range escort mission, or a pursuit/tactical mission<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v296/harryklein/harry3.jpg

boomshekah1
12-17-2006, 10:57 AM
Originally posted by RamsteinUSA:
Many of us USA pilots are still in shock and dismay how Oleg and all those involved could have not fix the blunder in the US aircraft. I cannot 'rant' becuase some people ar elss than happy when I start showing my anger.. , or call it hight level pissedness....

Asking ht epowers that be to Please. Please, show some repsect for the US pilots and ix the FM/DM problems.

We also have backing with information on the problems and fixed the problems from a actual pilot who flew WWII planes and worked as anengineer after leaving the Navy.

4.08 is the last chance to right serious wrongs. Many of us just get depressed when when love to fly the sim and time and time again fly deeply flawed US acraft that can be fixed if Oleg and his company just repsected us a bit and fixed those problems. At meeet us half -way. We asked this long before 4.05 and 4.08 will finish it off the Simulation journals will forever show this as history so this problem cuts both ways.
Would 1C like to be left with this in History forever? A country of 300 million and winner of WWII slighted by a stubborn Combat Flight Simulator Creator from Russia who modelled USA Aircaft wrong? The Same Aircraft who won WWII now are deeply flawed in a revised history by the same country it was an ally with.



LOL!
I would really like to see Oleg making some kind of alternative patch. Like 4.08a (a=amarican) where he lets guys like you (aka the america über alles crowd) "fix" the flightmodels. Just to see your version of right and wrong. I bet we would have Mustangs outclimbing Lerches and Hellcats outturning Yaks and Spitfires.
"WTF??? I am american for F**** sake!! Now show me some respect and build me my über Mustang!! Oh, and dont forget the übertigertankkilling .50 cals!"

ridiculous

joeap
12-17-2006, 11:13 AM
Originally posted by boomshekah1:
LOL!
I would really like to see Oleg making some kind of alternative patch. Like 4.08a (a=amarican) where he lets guys like you (aka the america über alles crowd) "fix" the flightmodels. Just to see your version of right and wrong. I bet we would have Mustangs outclimbing Lerches and Hellcats outturning Yaks and Spitfires.
"WTF??? I am american for F**** sake!! Now show me some respect and build me my über Mustang!! Oh, and dont forget the übertigertankkilling .50 cals!"

ridiculous

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif

Scen
12-17-2006, 11:17 AM
Originally posted by boomshekah1:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by RamsteinUSA:
Many of us USA pilots are still in shock and dismay how Oleg and all those involved could have not fix the blunder in the US aircraft. I cannot 'rant' becuase some people ar elss than happy when I start showing my anger.. , or call it hight level pissedness....

Asking ht epowers that be to Please. Please, show some repsect for the US pilots and ix the FM/DM problems.

We also have backing with information on the problems and fixed the problems from a actual pilot who flew WWII planes and worked as anengineer after leaving the Navy.

4.08 is the last chance to right serious wrongs. Many of us just get depressed when when love to fly the sim and time and time again fly deeply flawed US acraft that can be fixed if Oleg and his company just repsected us a bit and fixed those problems. At meeet us half -way. We asked this long before 4.05 and 4.08 will finish it off the Simulation journals will forever show this as history so this problem cuts both ways.
Would 1C like to be left with this in History forever? A country of 300 million and winner of WWII slighted by a stubborn Combat Flight Simulator Creator from Russia who modelled USA Aircaft wrong? The Same Aircraft who won WWII now are deeply flawed in a revised history by the same country it was an ally with.



LOL!
I would really like to see Oleg making some kind of alternative patch. Like 4.08a (a=amarican) where he lets guys like you (aka the america über alles crowd) "fix" the flightmodels. Just to see your version of right and wrong. I bet we would have Mustangs outclimbing Lerches and Hellcats outturning Yaks and Spitfires.
"WTF??? I am american for F**** sake!! Now show me some respect and build me my über Mustang!! Oh, and dont forget the übertigertankkilling .50 cals!"

ridiculous </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Are you serious? Look how much change has gone into the German Planes over the past years and tell me that it's some nationalistic feelings behind that effort.

It has nothing to do with Americans wanting American planes to be uber what a complete load.

It has to do with everyone has their favorite ride and they would like to see it match up to their RL counterpart. I can name several US based airplanes that need tweaking and there is tons of evidence to back it up.

I'm sure you've done your fair share of griping about a particular airplane and nobody has called you being nationalistic. Be quiet with that already silly.

JG4_Helofly
12-17-2006, 02:51 PM
Originally posted by Scen:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by boomshekah1:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by RamsteinUSA:
Many of us USA pilots are still in shock and dismay how Oleg and all those involved could have not fix the blunder in the US aircraft. I cannot 'rant' becuase some people ar elss than happy when I start showing my anger.. , or call it hight level pissedness....

Asking ht epowers that be to Please. Please, show some repsect for the US pilots and ix the FM/DM problems.

We also have backing with information on the problems and fixed the problems from a actual pilot who flew WWII planes and worked as anengineer after leaving the Navy.

4.08 is the last chance to right serious wrongs. Many of us just get depressed when when love to fly the sim and time and time again fly deeply flawed US acraft that can be fixed if Oleg and his company just repsected us a bit and fixed those problems. At meeet us half -way. We asked this long before 4.05 and 4.08 will finish it off the Simulation journals will forever show this as history so this problem cuts both ways.
Would 1C like to be left with this in History forever? A country of 300 million and winner of WWII slighted by a stubborn Combat Flight Simulator Creator from Russia who modelled USA Aircaft wrong? The Same Aircraft who won WWII now are deeply flawed in a revised history by the same country it was an ally with.



LOL!
I would really like to see Oleg making some kind of alternative patch. Like 4.08a (a=amarican) where he lets guys like you (aka the america über alles crowd) "fix" the flightmodels. Just to see your version of right and wrong. I bet we would have Mustangs outclimbing Lerches and Hellcats outturning Yaks and Spitfires.
"WTF??? I am american for F**** sake!! Now show me some respect and build me my über Mustang!! Oh, and dont forget the übertigertankkilling .50 cals!"

ridiculous </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Are you serious? Look how much change has gone into the German Planes over the past years and tell me that it's some nationalistic feelings behind that effort.

It has nothing to do with Americans wanting American planes to be uber what a complete load.

It has to do with everyone has their favorite ride and they would like to see it match up to their RL counterpart. I can name several US based airplanes that need tweaking and there is tons of evidence to back it up.

I'm sure you've done your fair share of griping about a particular airplane and nobody has called you being nationalistic. Be quiet with that already silly. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't doubt one second that he is serious. RamsteinUSA wrote that he wants better us planes because Oleg must show respect to us pilots and because the usa won the war.This is more than clear. Off course everyone wants his fav plane to be closer to RL, but the way Ramstein posted his request it is easy to see the nationalistic part in it.

And by the way, why should Oleg only show respect to US pilots? Why not also to Russian, German, Italian, English,... Pilots who are still alive???

RamsteinUSA
12-22-2006, 04:18 PM
??? you took everyhting i said out of context!
and I am not going to explain it again...
I will say that history shows the plane fm/dm was better than what we got in the game on American planes..

Please, don't misquote or twist this... that really put sme ina bad light, and others wil pick uip on what you said... and spread wrong information and twist things worst that you have already done so... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

I said that we could not have won the war had we had the fm/dm that the game has with our planes..
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif






I don't doubt one second that he is serious. RamsteinUSA wrote that he wants better us planes because Oleg must show respect to us pilots and because the usa won the war.This is more than clear. Off course everyone wants his fav plane to be closer to RL, but the way Ramstein posted his request it is easy to see the nationalistic part in it.

And by the way, why should Oleg only show respect to US pilots? Why not also to Russian, German, Italian, English,... Pilots who are still alive??? <div class="ev_tpc_signature">

Disabled USAF Veteran

boomshekah1
12-22-2006, 05:03 PM
Originally posted by RamsteinUSA:
...

I said that we could not have won the war had we had the fm/dm that the game has with our planes..



Oh ok, i am sorry then. I didnt know that the USA single handly won WW2. I always thought there were other nations involved aswell, like Britain or Russia for example.
Silly me. I really should stop reading all these revisionist history books.

JG4_Helofly
12-23-2006, 06:59 AM
Originally posted by RamsteinUSA:
??? you took everyhting i said out of context!
and I am not going to explain it again...
I will say that history shows the plane fm/dm was better than what we got in the game on American planes..

Please, don't misquote or twist this... that really put sme ina bad light, and others wil pick uip on what you said... and spread wrong information and twist things worst that you have already done so... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

I said that we could not have won the war had we had the fm/dm that the game has with our planes..
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif



<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">

I don't doubt one second that he is serious. RamsteinUSA wrote that he wants better us planes because Oleg must show respect to us pilots and because the usa won the war.This is more than clear. Off course everyone wants his fav plane to be closer to RL, but the way Ramstein posted his request it is easy to see the nationalistic part in it.

And by the way, why should Oleg only show respect to US pilots? Why not also to Russian, German, Italian, English,... Pilots who are still alive??? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Why only US planes have to be corrected?

Do you think that because the USA won ( with British, Russia, ...) they must have the best fighterplane? Just an idea: What if the p51 was better than any other german plane at high alt but not at low and mid alt? Have you ever flown the p51 at high alt vs german 109 for exemple? You would see that the 109 has no chance.

If I am wrong, please explain me your point again.

An other good thing would be some RL vs Game tests. It would be much more credible than claims without facts.

Excuse me if I didn't understood your posts but I think I did.

JG52Karaya-X
12-23-2006, 07:45 AM
You said La7, Spit (and I add bf109G2)... we know they are overmodelled, but you can't still compare P51 with these planes... P51 was an escort plane, not a dogfighter like the ones above.

Yes the Spitfire, Bf109, La5/7 were all short-legged defensive fighters with most attention put to speed, climbrate and manoeuvrability, the P51 (although concieved as a low level fighter in its A version) became a high altitude long range escort plane starting with the B model and you cannot really compare those two camps. Apples and oranges anyone?


Anyway, the P-51 probably is not the best turn fighter out there, but it was not some sort of overweight "dog" of an escort fighter, and should be able to more or less hold its own with any other fighter out there. The real problem, in game, of course, is that the fuel tanks and CG modelling is off

I don't think modelling the fuselage tank to be emptied first wouldn't change a lot. The P51 will never become a good turn fighter and will always be inferior in terms of turnrate to the likes of the Spitfire, Bf109, La5/7 and others, it simply isnt meant to be.

A little bit of aerodynamics:

We have to remember that the P51 is using a laminar-flow wing. With these types of airfoils the point of maximum wing-thickness lies at 50% (or even further behind) of the wing's width - this is to keep the air flow laminar for as long as possible. However a laminar flow is much more likely to detach itself from the wings surface resulting in a dramatic loss of lift (compared to normal turbulent flow wings), so this drastically hinders the Mustangs ability to pull off high-AoA sustained turns and will also mean that it will loose a lot of energy in tight turns.

The big advantage of laminar flow wings however is the much lower drag due to the fact that there is a maximum of laminar flow over the wing. Particles in a laminar flow follow parallel courses whereas particles in turbulent flows will change direction very often which will result in a loss of energy due to friction of different layers of air.

http://www.neurosono.de/uploads/pics/laminar_turbulent.gif

Hope this helps to clear things up a bit

lSQDl.LD
12-23-2006, 03:24 PM
I had a little bounce and wobble in my stick as well. I downloaded the new X52 stick drivers and the wobble/bounce frustration is finally gone, "completely".

The frustration of my poor shooting skill has finally been accepted as my fault. (a tuff pill to swallow) ;-) Now that I can't blame the sim or FM I am progressing and finally improving. The wobble and bounce was extremely frustrating and I feel for those who still have that problem. Unless you have experienced this you really can't understand how difficult lining up a shot can be! However, it was a problem with "my" hardware and not IL-2 as it turned out.

I'm just glade it's behind me...