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View Full Version : I can't shoot straight. Help!!



Tachyon1000
05-23-2005, 12:43 AM
Stupid AI flying pretty much level. 300 meters directly on his 6. Convergence set at 200 meters. Line up shot. Bullets miss all over the place. Up, down, left, right, mostly above. What the heck is my problem? Additionally, it seems to take me forever to line up a guy merely flying level, while leading an AI in a turn seems much more effective. Any advice??

AerialTarget
05-23-2005, 01:06 AM
Your problem is, I believe, not a matter of bad flying. Rather, it is the impossibility of transfering the real life factor of trim onto a digital control system.

In real life, you don't bob all over the sky in an airplane any more than you bob all over the road in a car. There is resistance to the yoke (or stick), so small yoke movements are translated smoothly to the control surfaces, just like the way you drive your car.

Real life trim makes holding the yoke in a particular position easier. Unless you aren't holding onto the yoke while you move the trim wheel, your control surfaces will not move, and you will not experience an increase or decrease in pitch. It will only take less strength to hold the controls where they are. A properly trimmed aircraft requires no physical effort to keep straight.

The reason flight simulators make trim affect your pitch is that is no way of simulating that it is now easier to hold your stick back (even Force Feedback sticks can't replicate the resistance of a badly untrimmed plane; they'd break if they tried). Therefore, the simulator is forced to assume that you are not holding the controls, even if you have the stick pulled back all the way. I say this because the effect in the game - increased or decreased pitch - is the same as if you were not holding the controls while you trimmed (untrimmed, rather) the plane in real life.

I'm sorry that I am unable to explain this better. I find myself not making sense even to myself! But take my word for it - the effects of vertical yoke movements in a real airplane are no different than the effects of steering wheel movements in a car, except that it is vertical instead of horizontal. There is no bobbing such as we experience in flight simulators, making aiming difficult.

That does not mean that aerial gunnery is easy, or that flying is as easy as driving a car. In truth, I find flying a plane both safer and more natural than driving a car (except for landings), but then I have neither flown in combat nor flown an older, more unstable airplane!

I cannot offer a solution to your gunnery problem. I am only now returning to IL-2 after being away from it for over a year. I am feeling the bob as you are. In time, you will get better at it, or perhaps you will become one of those happy few who learn how to trim on the fly, in simulated combat. These players often have hardware trim wheels, just like a real airplane, but some of them cheat by taking advantage of an unrealistic bug in the game; if you have a hardware trim wheel, you can instantly go from full negative trim to full positive trim, which in real life would take many seconds.

x6BL_Brando
05-23-2005, 03:04 AM
300 meters directly on his 6. Convergence set at 200 meters

Doesn't that tell you something? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif If you're firing at 300m then your bullets are converging at 200m and then opening back out to a spread in the next 100m. Think of scissors - with the hinge being the point of convergence - that's what's happening, and most of your ammo is getting wasted. Get in tighter! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Level shots from the six position are very tricky in this game, more especially with AI's. For a start it's the minimum profile to aim at - like trying to throw darts at a postcard that's facing you edge on! Then imagine doing the same with the card facing you but in plane view (pardon the pun!)

Now you have the whole 150x100mm (6x4") to aim at, rather than an edge less than a millimetre wide! I know I've omitted the fuselage, but that's also a very small object in rear profile. Bullets have to pass it through lengthways, if they don't glance off (a metal skin) and the back of the pilot's seat is armoured in most cases. A lucky or well-directed cannon-shell will do damage, sure, but the more you have to aim at the more chance you have of a hit.

Secondly, AI's normally start to take evasive action if an enemy plane gets within 300m. As they break you will get that fuller profile to fire at......and then's the time to add a little lead, and use the tracer to guide your aim. Once again, it will be a lot better if you can get him to fly into the point where your bullets converge http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Complex engine and surface management in FB and PF is a whole other topic, too long too enter here. But the tie in is that you need to be coming from a place of advantage, usually above, with enough Energy that you can actually ease your your way into a good solution and get clear again after getting in a good burst. That applies as much to a turnfight as boom 'n zoom imo - the target may have a wingman! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Trim on a stick (or wheel, or slider) is possible - but I thought that a 'realistic delay' had been built into its operation many patches ago, specifically to combat the cheat that Target mentioned. Has it changed back?

AerialTarget
05-23-2005, 04:06 AM
I don't know; I never bought Pacific Fighters, and as far as I know none of the Forgotten Battles patches fixed the delay.

By the way, tracers in real life travel slower than the actual bullets. I do not know if this is modelled in the game or not. Also, bullets are affected by gravity both in real life and in the game. Aim a tiny bit high at long ranges.

major_setback
05-23-2005, 07:54 AM
This RAF gunnery guide from another thread will no doubt help!!

http://www.simhq.com/simhq3/sims/air_combat/RAFgun/



http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/26310365/m/9411034323

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Doug_Thompson
05-23-2005, 08:44 AM
As already mentioned, one problem is that your guns are set to converge 100 meters behind the target and fan out from there. That's only a symptom of the bigger problem, however.


Additionally, it seems to take me forever to line up a guy merely flying level, while leading an AI in a turn seems much more effective. Any advice??

Forget about lining up while 300+ meters out. That's the whole problem. Concentrate on getting close to him first, then line him up.

That sounds like a small thing, but it's not.

When you're concentrating on lining him up before closing in, you are self-evidently putting yourself directly behind him and then have to chase him. Distance will close only slowly. "A stern chase is a long chase," as they say in the navy.

Get close enough, and you won't need a perfect line up.

VW-IceFire
05-23-2005, 11:11 AM
1) If you think you're close...get closer
2) Practice, practice, practice
3) Learn what an aircraft looks like in size at the convergence distance and then open fire moments before you get to perfect convergence

It takes time and practice to make it work...but 300m is too far away I think. Maybe for an opening shot...but thats all.

e2michaelb
05-23-2005, 03:01 PM
All the technical stuff aside, I find that squeezing the stick as I get within range of a target seems to diminish the tendency to "bob", at least for me. It also lessens my tendency to pull on the stick as I squeeze the trigger. I think the squeezing contracts the muscles in the forearm , thereby stabilizing my grip on the stick.

AerialTarget
05-24-2005, 01:45 AM
Actually, the bob isn't because of the player overcompensating. The bob is because improperly trimmed aircraft in the game, unlike in real life, respond drastically to even the tiniest of stick movements.

ImpStarDuece
05-24-2005, 02:45 AM
Originally posted by AerialTarget:
Actually, the bob isn't because of the player overcompensating. The bob is because improperly trimmed aircraft in the game, unlike in real life, respond drastically to even the tiniest of stick movements.

If you have this problem the answer is simple; just expand the deadzone on your stick.

I personally prefer a very tight throw on my stick. I find that it does help with last second adjustments.

However, I have reduced the initial sensitivity to movement quite significantly as I have got more and more into the sim. I have quite a parabolic input profile; a little movement will give me a proportionatly smaller response, a medium stick movement will be roughly averaged in the gaem with a medium movement and large stick movements are matched by very large responses.

AerialTarget
05-24-2005, 02:56 AM
Originally posted by ImpStarDuece:
If you have this problem the answer is simple; just expand the deadzone on your stick.

This actually compounds the problem, because when you have a large dead zone, you have less live zone. Less live zone means that each movement is amplified more than it already is. And it does not help, because the problem of tiny stick movements having drastic affects in the game still occurs. You just have a large area in which stick movements do nothing.

Your second solution is a good one, and the one I use. Indeed, it is used in the game by default. Unfortunately, it takes a long time to get used to.

Anyway, more than offering advice, I wished to inform the man mourning over his imagined ineptitude that the problem would not exist in real life. Instead, we would have to deal with things such as engine management, which must be done properly at all times in real life, even during combat.

No simulation comes close to accurately portraying the burden of engine management. Go to zenoswarbirds.com and look at some of the training videos. Those birds were a real load!

Tachyon1000
05-24-2005, 10:52 AM
Speaking of trim, you are correct that I do not have my plane properly trimmed as I find if I do I loose a great deal of manueverability and responsiveness in the elevator. It actually makes me think that trim is not properly executed in this game as I always thought trim was for small adjustments as opposed to the amount of stick input I would need to use to keep my nose down when flying level. Generally, I need 10 to 15 clicks to nullify any upward tendency which really takes away from ability to pull out of a dive or turn with the elevator. Does that seem right??

MADP
05-25-2005, 12:45 PM
The purpose of elevator (or any flight surface trim) is to remove any constant pressure the pilot is holding on the controls. Imagine having to hold a cars steering wheel to the left all the time to keep it on the road. That would get real old, real quick. Elevator trim is used so the airplane will fly "hands-off" -- that is flying in the path you want with no control input needed by the pilot.

In the game, I use 2 buttons on the joystick to control elevator trim -- just like the electric trim used on modern airplanes. This way I can trim the plane out in the middle of combat so it flys hands off, thus making aiming much easier.

AerialTarget
05-25-2005, 02:23 PM
Originally posted by Tachyon1000:
It actually makes me think that trim is not properly executed in this game as I always thought trim was for small adjustments as opposed to the amount of stick input I would need to use to keep my nose down when flying level.

You are correct, as is the gentleman who posted after you; trim is not properly executed in this game or any other. As I tried to explain (badly), it's not the fault of the developers, but rather a hardware limitation.

Old_Canuck
05-26-2005, 12:50 AM
The answer to the problem, of course, is "trim on a slider." -- memories of RBJ

AerialTarget
05-26-2005, 01:16 AM
Even if you have a trim slider, the trim in all flight simulators for personal computers has nothing to do with the way trim works in real life. Even if you have a force feedback stick, this is still true.

irR4tiOn4L
05-26-2005, 05:10 AM
is it possible to move the stick to a position (where you want it trimmed), press a button (perhaps hold it simulating the 'trimming' process), and then when you let go of the trimming button it will be trimmed at that stick position? Seems like the most elegant solution in my opinion - if immediate trimming is an issue then a delay could be implemented as suggested above.

Doug_Thompson
05-26-2005, 07:51 AM
While trim is undeniably important, the real problem here is still convergence and distance.

Tachyon1000, are you using a plane with wing mounted guns? If so, then the guns not only have to be angled inward to converge. They have to be angled upward.

The guns are lower than the gunsight's line of sight. The upward angle may be slight, but it becomes very signifigant over a quarter of a mile.

This could explain the bullets flying over the target that you noted earlier in the thread.

If you insist on trying to improve accuracy at long ranges, you might want to consider planes with cowl or nose-mounted guns, if you've not already.

Old_Canuck
05-26-2005, 08:09 AM
Originally posted by AerialTarget:
Even if you have a trim slider, the trim in all flight simulators for personal computers has nothing to do with the way trim works in real life. Even if you have a force feedback stick, this is still true.

You missed the underlying import of my message. This is a game. It's a fun game. I have flown real planes (most of my time is on floats). For the best flight sim game of its kind, IL2 is it. If you want a real life flying experience buy or rent a real plane.

By the way, in another thread you went on about how unrealistic it is when a sim plane doesn't stall straight ahead. In my experience one or the other wing almost always dips in a stall and if you don't catch it with decisive rudder control you could eventually be in a spin.

I don't find your comments helpful but rather designed to create an atmosphere of dissension IMO.

LEBillfish
05-26-2005, 08:16 AM
You can set the convergence to any range you want....However, think of your target a moment. 300m it's faint little target. Now I believe it is modeled in that though the bullets may converge on X point that is unmoving. Plane on the ground up on blocks and they fire off short bursts.

Long bursts cause the guns, then the wings and then whole plane to move, and as it moves so does the the point of impact past the very first round. They are meant to go all over.

Trick is 2 things. One, short bursts. Two, be so close that if a round strays it is still catching something on the plane.

You see at 300m 1 degrees off target equals 5.24m or 16 feet. Well, how thin are wings, the tail, whole thing from the rear...so 16' is a lot. At 100m it's 1.75m....Or 5', so you have a much better chance of still hitting them.

1 degree is not a lot. You're moving, they're moving and though it looks like you are following him as though in some tractor beam you're not.

1. Set your convergence closer, I suggest around 200m or less.
2. don't shoot till at that range or closer.
3. Fire short bursts
4. If you can on the plane you're flying set your rudder trim, otherwise you are slipping or flying sideways, that means you are having to constantly correct to fly hence fire straight ahead...Your corrections causing it to spray from side to side, same for elevator.

A friend was flying with me and asked how my shots always seemed to be killer split second bursts and his were not, well all of the above as he refuses to set rudder trim.

Setting rudder trim may cause you to roll due to torque, but roll wont hurt your gunnery near as much.

Good luck. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif