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RAF238thKnight
10-04-2005, 03:51 AM
I watched a gentelmens Dogfight Training Video and thought now thats really is not realistic. PLS for BoB can you set the view point and leave it or give the option for disableing Delete and Page Down View.

My reasoning for this is that when approaching a target you are not going to get a star wars visor sheild that is going to zoom in. The toggle gun sight view while in a dogfight is realistic, because it simulates your head moving in and bearing down on the bandit. Now all you Vector Expanion fellas with Track IR reload your cfs 3 and practice it is quite fun.

Back to my point tho many videos show the use of the delete key. Sorry I trully disagree with its use and if we can disable it in the server config for BoB or just leave it out that would be fine with me.


Knight

DaimonSyrius
10-04-2005, 08:18 AM
Originally posted by RAF238thKnight:
PLS for BoB can you set the view point and leave it or give the option for disableing Delete and Page Down View.
I'm not sure that I'm understanding correctly your request... Are you requesting that the different field-of-view (FOV) settings be removed?


My reasoning for this is that when approaching a target you are not going to get a star wars visor sheild that is going to zoom in.
But the close-in view is not a "star wars visor", it doesn't actually enlarge objets, it's just showing them with an apparent size that is closer to 'real'. Decreasing the in-game FOV to see a 'bigger' image in our monitor is not 'zooming in', but rather it's a way to allow the user to see objects in the outer world at approximately the actual apparent size we see them in reality. I would aggree that this is the most 'realistic' view in terms of apparent size of objects. But (and this this is a big BUT), we're talking about a simulation, a flight simulator software that runs on limited hardware, and if that was the only view available, then we would be forced to look at the world trough a small 17" window with the full-sized virtual world panning across it. It wouldn't be very 'realistic' to have our virtual self in a dark, enclosed position with only a small window to look at everything, including the cockpit, would it? That's the reason for the 'Wide View' or 85 deg FOV. It's a way of showing a bigger portion of the real human FOV (a portion only, mind you, actual FOV for a person with two eyes able is close to 180 deg) using our limited monitor displays, trying to fit our real 'natural' FOV in a small screen. But of course, when a bigger portion of the visual field is fitted within a few inches (17", 19", 21"...) you can see more, but everything looks smaller and distorted. In other words, the field of view you actually have when looking at a standard monitor from a standard distance is probably around 35-45 deg, but human vision works on a much wider FOV.

As virtual pilots, we need to see a wider angle for general flying and situational awareness issues, but this can only be done by decreasing apparent size of objects. And we also need the closer-to-reality apparent size for accuracy in pin-pointing details, but that forces the use of a FOV that is much narrower than in real life. You just cannot have 'realistic object size' AND 'realistic field of view' at the same time in a 17" display. So simulation software usually provides ways to overcome those shortcomings, which are due to the very nature of simulating something with limited means.

Moreover, let's recall how the 'virtual pilot' we become when playing a sim is a very handicapped person: this pilot has only one eye, completely lacks a vestibular system (the sensory organ in the inner ear that tells us about angular and linear accelerations, including gravity), and has no somatic sensitivity (touch/pressure in skin, muscles, joints) whatsoever (actually, a faint hint of this is provided by FF joysticks). Such a person would never qualify for a pilot's license with those handicaps, let alone active service in combat. Hence, simulators try to come up with 'good' (TM) ways to overcome the limitations imposed by the very essence of simulating things.

If the day comes when we can have a large semi-spherical (or better spherical, for that matter) display system that the player can sit in, then I will be all for having true FOV and true apparent size at the same time, since there won't be a need for simulating what is actually there. Have a look at this display system (http://www.elumens.com/products/visionstation.html), we would need something like that, but when it doesn't cost an arm and a leg http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Until that time, my request to Maddox people is: please keep workable view settings (i.e., variable FOV) in your sims; and I'm looking forward (pun intended) to 6DOF in BoB http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

S.

LEXX_Luthor
10-04-2005, 08:49 AM
Great post DaimonSyrius...most gamers have no concept of Field Of View.

Real Human vision offers both wide angle view and fine detail when we choose to focus attention on tiny objects or detail in the center of our vision.

Since computer monitors can't simulate both aspects, we model this by allowing quick field of view or "zoom" changes. For general looking around, we use wide angle view. For focusing attention on fine detail or small objects, we switch to zoomed in view.

The ultimate Challenge is landing your aircraft in full zoomed in view, which shows we need the wide angle view until computer monitors become the size of a wall and have 10,000,000 x 10,000,000 pixel resolution. Sit 2 feet in front of your wall, and imagine the whole wall being a computer monitor. That would eliminate the need to use "zoom" or field of view changes...provided the monitor offers 10,000,00 x 10,000,000 pixel resolution.

----- ---- --- -- -

Most interesting idea...assume TrakIR or similar device...such a mass wall monitor would need super high resolution only in the center. The monitor peripheral could use much less resolution. To see good detail at the monitor edge, you rotate pilot head to turn the pilot's head/eyes in that direction, thus centering the area of interest in the monitor center, just like when see something out of the corner of our eyes, we turn to look "closer" to get the something into our center vision that can handle detail...

Exactly...we turn to look "closer" which with our limited monitors, is modeled by looking "closer" with zoomed in views. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

jeroen-79
10-04-2005, 08:53 AM
Agree.

Humans have 180? of vision but it shows very little detail.
That is what zoomed out view does as well.
You see a lot but not well.

However, the human eye also has a small cone (10?) that gives excellent detail.
More detail than a 1024x768 screen can show.
Just like the zoomed in view.

Current PC screens can't mimic this.
The only way to do it is to surround yourself with ultra-high-resolution screens.

And going to zoomed in view also has it's disadvantages.
You may see things very good but you also see very little.
Just like real life, focusing on a single target will make you miss a lot of other things around you.

Variable zoom is a very good way to mimic the Eyeball Mk1 on a PC screen.

And if you don't like it, don't use it.

96th_Nightshifter
10-04-2005, 06:19 PM
Originally posted by DaimonSyrius:
Have a look at this display system (http://www.elumens.com/products/visionstation.html), we would need something like that, but when it doesn't cost an arm and a leg http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif


Great post; I WANT one of these!!!

HelSqnProtos
10-04-2005, 07:41 PM
S~!

I never posted this here at ubi only at NETWINGS, but since it has come up for discussion. Here it is.

For the record, the only views I used were, wide, normal and gunsight.

While I agree in principle with the sentiment behind Knights comments, this is a game feature I will use it. Especially since everyone else is doing so in combat

There are points for each side of this arguement. I will let the reader draw their own conclusions
.


S~!

We recently created a training movie for some of our newer pilots. This is a complete track, not edited or altered in any way. We posted it on our forum and got a very good response. Several people have asked for an English version so here it is. If your interested feel free to have a look.

Please forgive any glaring errors as I am most definetly NOT a filmaker.This training video is primarily about educating and preventing our newer pilots from the classic mistake of becoming "Target Fixated"

-- However the film does touch on the importance of concepts like the merge, situational awareness, target selection, expedited attack strategy, hi G max performance manoevering and gunnery --

I encoded this at a high bitrate in order to keep the quality up. It may not be suitable for all connections but the image quality is quite good, especially with a good media player.

Xvid codec
720x480
length 5:19
97 mb

"Decisive Combat Flying" (http://www.13th-hellenicsqn.com/files/13thTrainingVideo.zip)

Best viewed with VLC or Winamp -- though will work in media player and the like, just not as good image quality.

The movie deals principally with being "decisive" in combat.

Enjoy

LEXX_Luthor
10-04-2005, 08:07 PM
Protos::
While I agree in principle with the sentiment behind Knights comments, this is a game feature I will use it. Especially since everyone else is doing so in combat
I would guess Everybody is using it because it most represents human vision on limited computer monitors. Interestingly, target fixation among real pilots happens even though they have wide angle view.

Most of your time should be spent in wide angle view to be aware of your overall immediate surroundings and search effectively for distant targets. You also need the ability to "zoom in" to, for example, identify those distant targets (without Text Icons). Real human vision has the central eye vision detail to do that without "zooming in" but computer monitors are not real human vision.

More fundamentally, the fully zoomed in view, or "gunsight" view, most represents the size of objects seen by the human eye. We are actually "zooming out" to get the wide angle view that human vision is also capable of.

So we can't say "zooming in" is any less realistic than "zooming out" which is what we do when we fly with the wider angle views. This apparent contradiction is the result of both wide and narrow views each accurately modelling the enormous range of capability of human vision that cannot be represented on computer monitors.

albundy777
10-04-2005, 08:36 PM
Originally posted by RAF238thKnight:
I watched a gentelmens Dogfight Training Video and thought now thats really is not realistic.
What would you consider a "realistic" field of view?

IMHO, the variable FOV that we have in this game is the best solution to that question. As already pointed out, humans have about a 180 degree field of view, and how much of that we see depends on our "focus" at the time.

Offering it as the user's choice is great not only because there would be no way to agree on what is correct, but also because it's very balanced. Zoom in for accuracy, and lose sight of the big picture. Zoom out, and you may miss things in the distance.


I think too many games decide "what's right" for the player even though it doesn't necesarrily help with balance OR realism. In fact, I feel that way about a lot of things in this game, but the variable FOV is certainly not one of them.

VW-IceFire
10-04-2005, 08:44 PM
I say that I have to disagree with the original poster on all accounts.

The use of the widening and narrowing FOV is an important feature that should be more widely implemented. If I'm not mistaken, LOMAC uses a similar system with the same goals achieved.

The human eye is very sophisticated. Consider that, sitting in the cockpit of an aircraft is maybe like staring at a large monitor (or even a small one).

Now notice how while you're watching a movie or playing a game on your TV or computer screen and the rest of the world goes away. Yes your eyes have incredible field of view and focus abilities. Well in advance of any camera or display technology currently present. Most moviemakers spend quite a bit of time trying to make the camera do an adequate job of conveying enough information to make our eyes happy.

Narrowing your field of view on say the gunsight is, in my mind, an entirely realistic method of dealing with the incredible and at the moment insurmountable problem of portraying the experience of a WWII combat pilot on a flat 17 or 19 inch screen.

At the very least, the human eye has several magnitudes better resolution. How on earth can we describe a narrow FOV system as unrealistic when we can't touch the depth perception, motion sense, and resolution abilities (just to name three) of the combination of two healthy human eyes and brain.

Sorry...nope.

Monson74
10-05-2005, 02:11 AM
I have never used the "zoom"-feature in IL2 simply because I didn't have buttons enough when I started playing this sim ages ago. I don't know if it's realistic but I guess sim developers need to compromize because of hardware/software limitations. I do have a wish for BoB though: The ability to map keys to do advanced "combos" - much like martial arts games lol - so you can for example look 'Back' 'Left' while leaning 'Forward' 'Left' or look 'Forward' 'Up' while leaning 'Back' 'Right' all with the press of one button - my point is having 'Leaning' & 'Snap' view assigned to the SAME button. I know a lot of people use Tir but we are still many virtual pilots who rely on the Num keys & the top hat & are quite effective that way http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

F19_Ob
10-05-2005, 03:47 AM
I have another opinion and view on it.

We 17'monitor guys should all have atleast double size monitors to even come close to realworld size view.
Anything else is unrealistic.
Until this requirement is fullfilled any optional viewing aids, as zoom and different FOV, are required.
Also, all planes should have an even more increased outzoomed view to marginally come close to our own peripherical view.
The widest view now is really too narrow to simulate a realistic field of view.
However an online server keeper should have the option to enable or disable the viewing-aids.

------------------------------------------------
I'm a former art teacher and perception and FOV was one of the things I tought and studied.
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

stubby
10-05-2005, 07:12 AM
General rule of thumb is not to limit game functionality in order to meet one's view of the real world. better to include as many options as possible and then allow hosts to customize options. I've heard some of the elites propose that the wonder woman view should be removed because it doesn't jive with their view of 'realism'. Crazy. Bottom line - keep all the features but allow higher degrees of customization.

jeroen-79
10-05-2005, 09:08 AM
It is, after all, just a game.