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View Full Version : For all those who doubt what the p-47 can do to a FW-190....



Copperhead310th
09-30-2004, 10:55 PM
.....I present this Evidence!

count the seconds it takes to obliterate the
so Called "butcher bird" lol
a picture says it in a thousand words but VIDEO says it all.(you may need to right click and save as.
i had to.)

<span class="ev_code_RED">MAJ Randall "Pinky" Hendricks
Leading Ace
397th Fighter Squadron</span>

Maj Hendricks chases and scores another FW-190. (http://368thfightergroup.com/397-hendricks-av3.avi)

this link passed along to me by GR142_Astro. Awsome site for vintage WWII P-47 guncam footage! Thanks Astro

WUAF_Badsight
09-30-2004, 10:59 PM
theres doubters ?

this revisionist history game (FB) should be enough to show what a Jug could do

Copperhead310th
09-30-2004, 11:06 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WUAF_Badsight:
theres doubters ?

this revisionist history game (FB) should be enough to show what a Jug could do <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

lol revisionist history. funny you should use those words badsight. it seems to me that exactly what some of you would want. revisionist history to toatally change the outcome of the war so that the bad guys won.
well we're all intitled to our wish's....no matter how twisted they may be.

but the fact still remains that the P-47 was the TOP USAAF fighter aircraft in WWII up untill the P-51 came along. and some, my self included will argure it was still top dog even after early 1944. but that's just IMHO. Same as it's your opinion that the p-47 was not a very good air combat aircraft. you said your peace now i've said mine. So we can just agree to disagree and be done with it. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Targ
09-30-2004, 11:07 PM
What? looks to me at least 16 of the 21 seconds of the clip.
Are you saying that at close range in IL2 with a sixteen second sustained burst you cant shred a 190?

Copperhead310th
09-30-2004, 11:11 PM
no targ that's not what i'm saying.
and in fact i never mentiond the sim.

i was only trying to point out that what
some of us have been saying all along. the p-47 was an awsome combat aircraft and that it wass VERY capable of holding it's own in a dog fight.
and you may wanna watch it again. he only fired a 4 or 5 second burt.

Raider_356th
09-30-2004, 11:18 PM
copperhead...dude...seriously...take a deep breath....and relax... no one ever said the P-47 was a pos.... jus chill bro...

Copperhead310th
09-30-2004, 11:20 PM
well i didn't have a problem till the quack came into my thread and called me a crackhead.

Targ
09-30-2004, 11:21 PM
Roger that. I was unclear what the point was and I do agree the P-47 was a very capable fighter aircraft as well as an awsome ground pounder. In the video though he is getting hits on it from 6 seconds until almost the end though.

Copperhead310th
09-30-2004, 11:24 PM
hmm i better watch ot more closly.

it's a little grainy and fuzzy but still good quailty.

here's more from that web site.

368th Fg Guncam footage (http://368thfightergroup.com/guncamera.html)

Raider_356th
09-30-2004, 11:26 PM
i thought the P47 could carry more than jus 3 bombs and 6 rockets...heck, one of the late model 38's can carry the same weight in ordance as a B-17..of course, its a 2 engine plane...

WUAF_Badsight
09-30-2004, 11:28 PM
*Edited*... Gun Cameras start when the trigger is pressed & carry on for a few seconds after to capture damadge given

that clip might not have had continual firing but was started with firing

Targ
09-30-2004, 11:28 PM
OK, deleted some posts so this thread could get back to normal.
Lets all sing friendly camp songs and agree to disagree http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Copperhead310th
09-30-2004, 11:32 PM
thanks for cleaning that one up targ.

i should have titled it...."when good threads go bad."

Targ
09-30-2004, 11:34 PM
No problem, seemed such a waste of a good thread to delete or lock it.
I tried my best and thanks for keeping on track http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Copperhead310th
09-30-2004, 11:35 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Raider_356th:
i thought the P47 could carry more than jus 3 bombs and 6 rockets...heck, one of the late model 38's can carry the same weight in ordance as a B-17..of course, its a 2 engine plane... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Differnt load configurations for differant varrients i think. i know that it could carry HVAR. Also could carry 2-1000 lbs under the wings and 1- 500 lbd'er under the fusalage.
but that was maxing it out. full flaps and LOOOOOng runway. lol

robban75
09-30-2004, 11:37 PM
Having issues with the Würger Copperhead? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

WUAF_Badsight
09-30-2004, 11:38 PM
it went bad when the original poster decided to reply without his brain in gear & working beforehand . . . . .

jeez he doesnt even know what my opinion is of the Jug & i didnt say anything good or bad WRT the Thunderbolt

good one CH http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

WUAF_Badsight
09-30-2004, 11:40 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Targ:
Lets all sing friendly camp songs and agree to disagree http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

thx for deleting my posts about how CopperHead gets things wrong Tarq http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

where is it that we have disagreed then ? huh ?

Raider_356th
09-30-2004, 11:40 PM
lol well they got it backwards in the game then... 1,000lbs bomb under fuelsalge and 2 500's...wish it was the other way around with HVARs... be able to take out more targets with one plane...

kit_lg2002
09-30-2004, 11:53 PM
sure thing, the jug is awsome, but, in FB just a few hits and the engine cut`s of, the gunsight is gone, so i have to land http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif
Is this hapening just to me or, that`s the way it is?????

Raider_356th
10-01-2004, 12:04 AM
you shouldnt be gettin hit in the first place...hehe...but usually, only planes that do that to me is planes with the mk 108..other wise it takes forever for someone to do that to me, and usually by the time that situation comes around, their dead anyway... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

WUAF_Badsight
10-01-2004, 12:40 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by HART_dreyer:
I don't see how that movies shows that the P-47 is an awesome air combat fighter. The P-47 in the game is nearly worthless against skilled pilots if you fly solo. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


obviously you never , ever fly higher than 6K

kit_lg2002
10-01-2004, 12:50 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by kit_lg2002:
Raider_356th i got hit while head on combat with an bf109g2 http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif , i don`t know if that sounds good cause my english sucks, i hope you understand what i mean. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Korolov
10-01-2004, 01:26 AM
Furthermore, I should add I got 10 *human* kills while flying a P-47.

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

HART_dreyer
10-01-2004, 01:37 AM
in one sortie?

KGr.HH-Sunburst
10-01-2004, 04:10 AM
hhhmm my best was 7 kills in the P-47 online on GG
and those kills were made below 3k http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

the P-47 in this patch is the better turn fighter compared to the later Antons and alot of guys dont know this.
I dont even have much problems to mix it up with 109K's at lower alt

Im a die hard 190 jock and if there is one thing i fear ,its a Jug with an alt advantage flying above me because that means he did his homework and is likely a good pilot http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

PBNA-Boosher
10-01-2004, 04:55 AM
And again, I must make the point: Not all Germans were Nazis, not all Nazis hated Jews, Gypsies, blacks, homosexuals, the handicapped, etc.... They are not necessarily the bad guys. The Nazi party indeed was an enemy, as was the Nazi ideal. What we were fighting against was another people who wanted to defend their way of life and their families against foreign invaders.

I am Jewish, please take that into account as well.

MadMacgunner
10-01-2004, 05:01 AM
Well,i´d heard tha german pilots believed it was similar or inferior to their own 109, but it greatest adventage was it could dive faster.
When a jug was attacked it only had to put his nose down and te german pilot only could watch it go.But from this to say it was the greatest fighter of the war......
I think this proves it was a flying brick more than a plane.


"Vista,suerte y al toro"

Garc*a Morato,Spanish Civil War pilot.

Franzen
10-01-2004, 05:36 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by PBNA-Boosher:
And again, I must make the point: Not all Germans were Nazis, not all Nazis hated Jews, Gypsies, blacks, homosexuals, the handicapped, etc.... They are not necessarily the bad guys. The Nazi party indeed was an enemy, as was the Nazi ideal. What we were fighting against was another people who wanted to defend their way of life and their families against foreign invaders.

I am Jewish, please take that into account as well. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Um, .....well,.....you kinda caught me by surprise Boosher. I'm not saying good or bad or anything like that. You just surprised me. I wish we were in the same town so we could discuss this further over a few beers. But i know this is not the place. So I'll leave it http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Fritz Franzen

carguy_
10-01-2004, 05:56 AM
LOL second page and I see stuff about Jews and nazis already! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

Anyways the Jug can be compared with the Wurger.Not much chance 1v1 against more nimble planes such as the Me109,although p47 is deadly when encountered in numbers.

Personally when I encounter p47 I do everything just not to fall on the end of those .50 cals.If the guy has set his convergence accurately I`m already dead meat.

Hmm wondering if allies fell the same when jumped by a Focke Wulf. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

Destructive power of those planes is a very good way for venting. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif

Franzen
10-01-2004, 05:58 AM
Ok, my 2 cents.

Believe it if you will, I wasn't there and never flew the P-47 in real combat. I swear. But, the fact that only 60 years later there are many discussions and debates about whether it was good or not proves one thing to me; there's not enough info to be sure.

So, I will give my humble opinion of the P-47 in IL-2. I've flown the P-47 but only a few times. I like it for low alt fighting due to it's stall characteristics. It's pretty close to the IL-2 and He-111.

I've flown against it with both the 190A4 and 109G2. I've never lost and the only complaint I have is that it takes most or all of my ammo unless I aim for specific places.

So far, from what I've seen, it is either flown by inexperienced pilots or it's just not a great plane. It's guns are deadly if the pilot can actually aim them at you. It's a BnZ or high alt plane. Either way, it has never been, online or offline, a threat to me.

That's not to say it's a bad plane, but I would say it is not so good compared to many other planes from both sides. As for the movie, it proves nothing. The 190 took no evasive action. Replace the P-47 with another 190, 109, P-51, Hurri, or many other planes and you'll get the same or better results.

I think the P-47 in the right hands, in the right situation, against the right enemy, can be dangerous, but generally not. Just my 2 cents.

Fritz Franzen

Snow_Wolf_
10-01-2004, 08:06 AM
2 things about shooting someone down online

1) It about Luck (then when you usually catch the poor bum looking at the country side and not paying attention

2) Good timing (when you hit the poor bum with not him knowing what ever hit him or guys sliding into your gunsite)

I fly the P-51B and the A4 alot in the game but i got the say it just comes down to those too things. 4 50cal can down a plane so can 2 7.7mm with 4 20mm it just that with 4 50cal you need to make the rounds count, but with the A4 guns you still need to make the rounds count but uses less ammo.

p1ngu666
10-01-2004, 08:16 AM
u flown against the 361st? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif
and arent guncams at 1/4 speed?

i like the p47 alot, classic american plane http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

MOhz
10-01-2004, 08:21 AM
copper, i totally agree man. i never will understand why people use 108 on the FW. i fly 190 99.999999999999999% of the time and only use the 108 against b17 and other heavies. the 108 just makes the already crippled 190 more cirppled against fighters.

abbuzze, i thnk you should learn how to aim the cannons because the kick ***. i mean on the FW the only that IMO works are the cannons.

ZG77_Nagual
10-01-2004, 08:47 AM
It's on my 'too easy to fly list' - toward the bottom - but still on it.

NorrisMcWhirter
10-01-2004, 08:52 AM
Hi,

^ It's most probably wrong but you have to remember that little Johnny would take his game back to the store and swap it for CFS3 if it wasn't easy to shoot down the bad guys.

Copper: Do you have any videos where the P47 didn't shoot down the 190, for comparison? This sequence may well have been a 1 in a 100 occurrence; the fact that it exists probably means it was exceptional so making it ideal for newsreel propaganda.

But, of course, you'll say that the P47 shot down lots of 190s. Not surprising with aircraft ratios of 5:1+, as suggested by Heinz Knocke.

Cheers,
Norris

karost
10-01-2004, 09:35 AM
history is history
game is game

I try for 5-6 time 1vs1 with my friend 109G6L vs p-47 he is very good in p-47 ... and alot of friends here know what the result was... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

but as I said ,game is game , it's for fun not for prove a history.


well, I agree with Franzen
that is man not a machine... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

S!

geetarman
10-01-2004, 09:35 AM
P-47's a great plane but I wonder what Bong, McGuire or Lynch would have said was the top USAAC fighter was before the intro of the P-51. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

I agree with them.

Franzen
10-01-2004, 10:32 AM
Interesting. I just setup the same situation in the game as what's in the guncam movie. It seems Oleg modelled it just like what was in the movie. The P-47 tears the 190A5 apart in no time.

I know this doesn't mean anything, I just thought it would be fun to try anyways.

Fritz Franzen

Daiichidoku
10-01-2004, 11:48 AM
I used to fly the jug a lot, a long time ago...but I soon gave up on it as hopeless, at leawst when flying with out a wing...

Since 204, I have enjoyed it again...it can actually hold its own...usually I stay up high and bnz out of necessity...but there have been times, especially when bounced at take off (grr! cheap cowards!) I have been forced to low df...and usually it ends with a downed jug, but often takes most of the attackers ammo to do it, at least....but sometimes I win...

IMO, the DM is good now (no more instant flaming gas tanks!) except for its glass jaw engine

IRL jugs could, and would RTB with whole cylinders gone...in FB, seemingly single 303 hits will totally disable it...PFFT!...I realize that this is possible, but not to the frequency it occurs in FB...this needs to be addressed in FB...meanwhile, guys in spits and la7s motor around with obvious engine damage for what seems like ages....

In regards to the original post, sure, a jug can down a 190 ( seems in the guncam video the 190 is hit in the drop tank, causing the explosion ) but a 190 can decimate a jug....cmon, everyone knows (or should) that ANY type can decimate ANY other type, its all chance and/or hitting it at the right time, in the right place

WUAF_Badsight
10-01-2004, 12:57 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Daiichidoku:
but a 190 can decimate a jug.... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

oh really ?

do tell everyone which A/C has the better turn rate ?
what about head-on survivability ? hmmmm ?

what about climbing ability ? you also know that one dont you ?

i do http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

civildog
10-01-2004, 02:45 PM
overmodelled Jugs, uber-Messer/Wulfs, "Nazis were just misunderstood" (jeez louise Boosher!!),lions and tigers and bears...oh the humanity!!

Bottom line: We won, the bad guys with thier fancy uniforms and super planes lost to the guys in grubby uniforms and crappy planes with scattergun .50's, and this is just a game anyway.

I'm warning you...I fly the P-39 and that means mine's bigger than your's!

tttiger
10-01-2004, 02:47 PM
Thanks for the link to that web site CH!

One thing worth noting is those guncam films are from a 9th Air Force unit.

With the exception of the Battle of the Bulge, most 9th Air Force pilots never even saw a LW plane, because the Germans were using their planes to fight off the 8th Air Force. And even during the fighting over the Ardennes, the 9th AF pilots shot down a huge number of 109Ks and Doras. Not because the Jug was better but because the German pilots were so green.

Most of the people posting in here appear to be from the Arcade DF crowd. Or the Kiddie Pool, whichever you choose.

Your opinions are meaningless. Because the conditions on which you base them are totally unreal.

NO airplane can be evaluated by its performance in ANY DF arena. The situations presented in all DF arenas are so far from the way actual air battles were fought that any argument based on what happens in a DF arena is no argument at all.

In a Coop, and the well written ones at least approach real tactics, I will always choose Jug over a Pony. The Pony is just too fragile.

On top of that, at high altitudes the model for all airplanes is so out of whack it is pathetic.

As a pure fighter, the Jug was best at 35,000 feet.

Try taking a P-47 above 10,000 meters in FB. It's all you can do to keep it from falling out of the sky. There is no way to fly the Jug as a fighter in its proper element in the sim.

In 1943 and the first half of 1944, the P-47 ruled the sky (within its range). The 56th FG flew them til the end of the war (pity we can't have the M model, fastest prop fighter of WWII, which was flown by the 56th).

Of the Top 10 US Aces in the ETO, 7 were Jug pilots and all 7 survived the war (granted, s few like Gabreski ended up in POW camps but his surviving a prop strike while strafing says how tough the Jug was). Only three of the 10 were Pony pilots and one of those did not survive: Preddy, who was killed by friendly AA fire on Christmas Day 1944.

That tells me a whole lot more about the Jug than all your "War Stories" from the DF Arenas.

CYA in the Coops.

ttt

Kasdeya
10-01-2004, 03:10 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by p1ngu666:
u flown against the 361st? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif
and arent guncams at 1/4 speed?

i like the p47 alot, classic american plane http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Shhhhhhhhh, dont tell anyone. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Korolov
10-01-2004, 03:13 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by HART_dreyer:
in one sortie? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Aff, one sortie. I spent about 15 minutes or so climbing to 8k, then the rest of the 45 minutes making passes at mostly Fw-190s flying below me. I shot them to the point that they could no longer regain control (remember, this was 1.11, and Fw-190s were a lot tougher/weaker then) and climbed back up. They either crashed or had to ditch. Realistically I'd say it was probably 5 or 6 confirmed with 4 damaged. But I had shot them up pretty good and none of them were able to mount a counter attack after I made a attack pass, so it all evens out.

I made it back to base, too. Probably the best sortie I ever had with the Jug.

Kasdeya
10-01-2004, 03:18 PM
I wonder if Eagle will see this thread. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

*runs and locks door!* http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/mockface.gif

crazyivan1970
10-01-2004, 03:18 PM
I`v flown agaisnt 361st, they were dropping like flies http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

Korolov
10-01-2004, 03:40 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif @ Ivan's post

*Jumps in foxhole*

Kasdeya
10-01-2004, 04:07 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by crazyivan1970:
I`v flown agaisnt 361st, they were dropping like flies http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I know you weren't saying we were! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Ooooohhhh, you so lucky Eagle is moving this week, cuz he'd be all over this. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/mockface.gif

The nirodicity of it all. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

crazyivan1970
10-01-2004, 04:11 PM
I know that he`s away, do you honestly believe i have a death wish? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Still dropping tho http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

faustnik
10-01-2004, 04:41 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Copperhead310th:
.....I present this Evidence!

count the seconds it takes to obliterate the
so Called "butcher bird" lol
a picture says it in a thousand words but VIDEO says it all. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Interesting footage, eight .50s sure pack some punch!

So, you don't think the 190 deserves the name "Butcher Bird"? Or maybe you just been shot down by them too many times and have developed an attitude? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

ouston
10-01-2004, 05:41 PM
Seems to me what we have here is an FW-190 heading home on the deck and being bounced. Certainly in a fair fight a 190 could run rings round a P-47 but whos going to get into a fair fight if they have any sense. Chose your moment and then kill him and here we have film of it happening.

Ouston.

faustnik
10-01-2004, 05:44 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ouston:
Certainly in a fair fight a 190 could run rings round a P-47 but whos going to get into a fair fight if they have any sense.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't think so. The 190 certainly had no huge advantages over the Jug other than being somewhat smaller and lighter.

WUAF_Badsight
10-01-2004, 05:48 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ouston:
Certainly in a fair fight a 190 could run rings round a P-47 <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

no FW has any advantage over the Jug over 8K at all . . . . . except the TA & thats in level top speed only , not accelleration

ouston
10-01-2004, 06:17 PM
Dear Faustnik

Thanks for your reply. We might have to differ on the relative merits of FW-190 and the P-47 as it is late and I am reluctant to get out loads of books to prove my point. What I hope I can prove is that circumstances such as the tactical situation or the training of the pilots can negate any superiority in the quality of the aircraft, and this may be where the Jug scores. I would contend that the FW-190 was probably a better aircraft than the Jug, at least in terms of climb and turn. However consider that the average late war Luftwaffe pilot was operational with about 20 hours on type, if they were lucky, against Allied pilots who had several times that. Danny Parker's book on the air war in the Ardennes describes German pilots flying into the ground when pursued, probably because they were unable to control superb high performance aircraft.

I love standing at the fence at Duxford seeing the P-47 and I would also love to see one of the new build FW-190s in the air. The shots I have seen in aviation magazines look very good.

Regards
Ouston

Cajun76
10-01-2004, 06:20 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by tttiger:


Most of the people posting in here appear to be from the Arcade DF crowd. Or the Kiddie Pool, whichever you choose.

Your opinions are meaningless. Because the conditions on which you base them are totally unreal.

NO airplane can be evaluated by its performance in ANY DF arena. The situations presented in all DF arenas are so far from the way actual air battles were fought that any argument based on what happens in a DF arena is no argument at all.


ttt <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Gotta disagree with that, although I do agree in principle about some aspects. Many times a DF server they are a caricature of RL combat. So is FB after a fashion. I've never picked out a 109, and stayed on the ground for lack of fuel. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

There are many players in DF servers (some more or less than others) that have never learned any ACM. They either TnB or mechanically BnZ. But there's others that know what they're doing. I wish I was one of them. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

There have plenty of times though when I'll meet an a/c in the virtual skies, and we both pull manuevers and tactics out of our ACM bag o' tricks. We both try to use our advantages against the others' weaknessess. That includes trying evaluate the other pilots' disposition as well, becuase you can sometimes use thier ego or over-aggresiveness against them as well. To say that nothing can be learned or evaluated in a DF server is wrong, many a/c can be matched up rather well I've found. However, you won't find out the advantages of a finger-four vs. a vic formation. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Copperhead310th
10-01-2004, 06:48 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ouston:
Seems to me what we have here is an FW-190 heading home on the deck and being bounced. Certainly in a fair fight a 190 could run rings round a P-47 but whos going to get into a fair fight if they have any sense. Chose your moment and then kill him and here we have film of it happening.

Ouston. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ok. So assuming that this assement is true..
you are overlooking the end goal in the philosphy of war & combat. And that is to toally obliterate you enemy from the feild of battle. and as such the aim of any military force in combat, no matter what nation, is to do just that. No with this pholosophy in mind, as a milatry power you delvop the tools of war to reflect those ideals. If I were a combat pilot in WWII and found an enemy aircraft at a disadvantage i would not hesitate to do my duty and blast that SOB from the sky with little heistation. And that's exactly how the pilots of all airforces in WWII on BOTH side would have saw it. had he let that 190 excape...that same pilot could have returned in a few days or weeks and killed him or one of his buddies.
i'm sure the 190 pilot felt the same way.
in that respect the axis pilots and allied pilots were from the same cloth.
i'm sure that no matter what they're personal beliefs that they both new thier duty, and both we're doing thier duty. I'm sure that if that 190 pilot suvived...and you were to ask him what he thought of being shot down and how he felt about it he would be fairly understanding about it in the respect of honor and doing your duty. And he would openly admit that had the situation beed reversed.....he would have done the same **** thing the thunderbolt pilot did.

now as to me having issues with the 190's in FB...i have none. i love the 190's. they make exellent targets.

as for this being propaganda footage... you're wrong. it was classified. all guncam footage was classified. but a good point to concider about the very nature of propaganda is hat no matter how obvious it is...it always has a little truth hidden in there somwhere. at least in war story propaganda. with this guncam footage you can't claim it as being propaganda since it was CLASSIFIED. If it was released to the general public you cas rest assured it was LONG after that event took place.

Korolov
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Furthermore, I should add I got 10 *human* kills while flying a P-47. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Diablo from our squad has 27. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/mockface.gif
most of them on Warclouds.

I'm not sure if Guncams are set 1/4 speed.
that's a very valid question. Maybe Wiley would know. he has a ton of guncam footage. anyone know how to get intouch with Wiley?

if it is at 1/4 speed then it was a rather quick end for that fockwulf.

no evasive action. hmmmm most likey he didn't know the 47 was there untill he heard the hits. but by then it's too late. he did try and bank left at the end... but who know's. frem what i saw he had little chance of escape. turning left only exposed a greater target. IMO.

but here take a look at this 190 footage from the same web site & same 47 pilot. here is a prime example of what NOT to do. watch as the 190 pilot jerks back on the stick and starts to climb. In this situation it's obvios that the 190 driver is in experianced. you'll see the canopy pop open and fly off to the left. he bails out.

another 190 kill by Maj. Hendricks (http://368thfightergroup.com/397-hendricks-av1.avi)
after watching this again a few times i'm wondering if he actually did inetionally pull up or was this just do to him saying oh Sh*t! and trying to get the hell out of his crate before if burts into flames. i know from flying this sim for 3 years now that pulling up like that with a guy behind you firing is some thing that you REALLY don't want to do. so i'm wondering now after going back to watch it if this was an entional move? or just the rsult of him relasing the controls to bail out.


I'm not editing for spelling or typos. i can spell just fine. and i can type farily well.
i just can't do both @ the same time. lol
probly cause i henpeck 32 words a min. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Kasdeya
10-01-2004, 06:57 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by crazyivan1970:
I know that he`s away, do you honestly believe i have a death wish? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Still dropping tho http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Death wish, no.

When will your Coop server be back up? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Lets have some fun. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/mockface.gif

Nice to have a good jabbing on these forums once in awhile, dont you think?

Copperhead310th
10-01-2004, 07:00 PM
you know what.... the only thing that really bugs me about the 190 & 109 pilots in FB is that they all love that dam mk 108.
the truth of the matter is that the LW never used (from what little i know) mk 108s in fighter combat. they didn't need them to bring down most allied fighters. the MK 108's were for bomber interceptors. to bring down the hevies like Lancs and B-17's. so what the guys online wanna always arm with 108's is beyond my understanding. Now if there's flayble bombers on the server that's one thing. but with no real heavy bombers what's with the 108's?

crazyivan1970
10-01-2004, 07:19 PM
Copper, Korolov shot down 10 planes in 1 flight. And that was before 50 cals so-called dispecion was adjusted. In FR settings too.

Cheers! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Korolov
10-01-2004, 08:08 PM
Heh, Copper, Warclouds is... Lets put it this way: target rich environment. When I was flying, we had what, maybe 8 or 9 axis opponents to 7 allied. I was flying alone, with no support whatsoever. Not only did I managed to take out 10 planes in that sortie, the next sortie (lasting about another hour) got me another 7 kills - and no deaths. Thats about 2 hours total flying time, with what I estimate to be 110 minutes of climbing and searching and 10 minutes of actual combat. Keep in mind that icons were extremely limited, with no enemy icons. Most of all, this was before Warclouds and before the 50's got "fixed" and the P-47 "fixed."

I won't deny what your boy did, but I do wish to point out that the victory I had was at a point in time when everyone said it couldn't be done.

Copperhead310th
10-01-2004, 09:15 PM
umm congrads. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

WUAF_Badsight
10-02-2004, 02:03 AM
why dont you hunt down WUAF_Hero & wing with him

he regularly gets over 6 "confirmed" in a sortie , & has done ever since v1.21

Abbuzze
10-02-2004, 07:24 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Copperhead310th:
you know what.... the only thing that really bugs me about the 190 & 109 pilots in FB is that they all love that dam mk 108.
the truth of the matter is that the LW never used (from what little i know) mk 108s in fighter combat. they didn't need them to bring down most allied fighters. the MK 108's were for bomber interceptors. to bring down the hevies like Lancs and B-17's. so what the guys online wanna always arm with 108's is beyond my understanding. Now if there's flayble bombers on the server that's one thing. but with no real heavy bombers what's with the 108's? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The problem is not the Mk108 it is the porked MG151/20mm!!! This cannon is nearly useless! Try Hartmanns tactic closing in from a lower 6 o´clock positon and open fire at 100-50m (or yards which is similar http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif) Most planes should go down after such an attack, maybe not a P47 but most of the other planes- This worked in this simulation in the classic IL2!! But now- you are lucky if you got any real damadge by this way..

It´s pity, a 20mm AP Bullet hitting a plane at it 6 maybe stopped at the reararmour of the pilot (with some luck) seems to do nothing in FB http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif- But it is similar to the Mk108 with both cannons I´m used to count the funny puffy smokeclouds- It´s nice to see 6 of them after a pass at a P47 and asking the Jugdriver- anything noticed in flightbehavior? - NO...
Hmm it seems they sometimes just bounced of the surface of the plane http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

WUAF_Badsight
10-02-2004, 01:33 PM
are you kidding ?

the MG151/20 are so porked . . .. they were finally set right in v1.22 & when AEP came out they were back to their worst ever

its a joke

VW-IceFire
10-02-2004, 03:14 PM
I used to fly the Jug back in 1.1 when the roll rate was horrid, the .50cals made the plane sway back and forth , and you couldn't see the tracers because they just up and disappeared after they left the guns (from the pilot position).

I managed to shoot down FW190's, Bf-109's, and all manners of aircraft. It just took more than 10 seconds on target to do it http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

In FW190's, I almost never use the 108's except on anti-bomber runs. They cause too many problems turning and rolling the plane and its harder to hit with those than with the 151/20.

Now is the MG151/20 undermodeled...yeah I think so...its widely indicated that the explosive power of the MG151/20 roughly equaled the overall kinetic force of the Hispano cannon (the overall effect on a plane being roughly similar - just achieved in a different way). On the other hand...the Hispano is always going to be easier to aim because of muzzle velocity and the MG151/20 isn't as undermodeled as a whole bunch of people would like to think (its a small difference - it counts but its small).

This thread strikes me as one of the old time debates we used to have. It was always the Jug, the .50cal, and the MG151/20/MK108 debates http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

robban75
10-02-2004, 03:38 PM
IMO, either the MG151's are porked or some planes are just flying tanks. I have real hard time downing enemy fighters with the way the MG's are modelled now. According to Faustniks(?) tests the Hispano is actually 2.25 times more effective than the MG151 in its current state. I don't doubt this for a second. Most planes drop out of the sky from short burst with the Hispano. Getting kills online is really hard right now when flying the D-9. Sure I have no problem lining up on an enemy fighter and score hits, but most of the time I fail to down them.

Sorry for leading this thread in the wrong direction, I'll stop now. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

faustnik
10-02-2004, 06:10 PM
The P-47 in 2.04 is great. Everything a Jug should be. It is very capable of quick kills of 190s. I have some good tracks if you want them Copperhead.

As for 190 targets for you Copper, just PM me, I'll provide one for you. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Atomic_Marten
10-02-2004, 06:43 PM
TA152 FW190D

Zen--
10-02-2004, 06:46 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by robban75:
IMO, either the MG151's are porked or some planes are just flying tanks. I have real hard time downing enemy fighters with the way the MG's are modelled now. According to Faustniks(?) tests the Hispano is actually 2.25 times more effective than the MG151 in its current state. I don't doubt this for a second. Most planes drop out of the sky from short burst with the Hispano. Getting kills online is really hard right now when flying the D-9. Sure I have no problem lining up on an enemy fighter and score hits, but most of the time I fail to down them.

Sorry for leading this thread in the wrong direction, I'll stop now. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Your experience matches mine Robban, and I have begun to dislike the MG151/20. Their performance in AEP has really taken alot of the enjoyment out of flying the Dora for me.

Korolov
10-02-2004, 07:54 PM
A good comparison would be the MG/FF to the 151s - the FFs seem to have a lot more destructive potential over the MG151s, whereas my understanding it should be opposite of that.

faustnik
10-02-2004, 09:11 PM
The MgFF fires a heavier shell at a lower volocity. The Mg151 should be firing the minengeschloss shell which has a more effective explosive content however. All of this is a very involved question as a few dozen pages if discussion in ORR indicate. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Here's my old chart (which I need to update):

http://pages.sbcglobal.net/mdegnan/_images/WeaponsChart.gif

Here you can also see the relative hitting power of the P-47! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif Check out 8 x .50 cal (P-47) vs. 8 x .303 (Hurri I).

VMF-214_Pappy
10-02-2004, 11:33 PM
Well myself and most of my squadron fly p47 almost soley tell PF is released and we will move to Corsair. If the corsair is a dog we will go back to p47. And to the person that said the p47 is a dog vs a skilled pilot I would have to say is dead wrong. Me and VMF-214_HaVoK have flown the JUG since FB 1.0 and I and havok rarely die unless we are stupid and lose our energy advantage. I and Havok have brought that plane home with 10 kills and ammo left. I do alot of 1v1's and I cannot tell you last time i lost a 1v1 in a JUG. Not to be arogant but you must fly the JUG they way she is meant to fly.

She is not a turn and burner or a dogfighter. Get it down low and slow your dead. Try to turn on a yak and your dead. I believe p47 at the time of 2.04 patch is one of best boom and zoomers in game. Its high altitude performance is unmatched. It can dive at over 1000kph and escape attackers. It will bring you home with massive damage. I will 1v1 anyone with it with confidence.

Some issues I do have with the JUG is smaller caliber ammuntion taking out the double wasp radial (highly doubtful) I have read P47's fly home with half there cylinders shot out. Controls shot out too often. The Jug had metal control rods known to withstand large caliber machine gun fire but bf109 13mm and 15mm take mine out often. Usually i can still make it home by diving her. Now i can understand cannon fire taking out metal control rods but not machine gun fire. The JUG is known for its tuffness. I have read of many accounts of fw190 shooting up jugs and not bring it down. Than pulling along side of the huge bird and saluting the pilot and flying off. That JUG made it home and they counted over 500 machine and cannon fire holes in it. Discovery Wings itself voted it Best ground attack aircraft of all time for its tuffness. Even above planes like Il-2 and A-10 Warthog. Because it flew over 200,000 sorties and only 2% ever being lost to groundfire or enemy planes.

I think the P-47 is a wonderful bird. I see alot of new pilots giving up on it after flying it under 2000meters and trying to dogfight yaks or la7's. Put in a patience pilots hands the plane can be devistating. Specially now that the guns converg correctly now and dont shotgun all over map like previous versions.

VMF-214_Pappy
10-02-2004, 11:35 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by KGr.HH-Sunburst:
hhhmm my best was 7 kills in the P-47 online on GG
and those kills were made below 3k http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

the P-47 in this patch is the better turn fighter compared to the later Antons and alot of guys dont know this.
I dont even have much problems to mix it up with 109K's at lower alt

Im a die hard 190 jock and if there is one thing i fear ,its a Jug with an alt advantage flying above me because that means he did his homework and is likely a good pilot http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Your a very smart pilot lol. The JUG is a worthy adversary and alot dont know this.

munnst
10-03-2004, 03:05 AM
If your taking hits then you've already lost the battle.
Have good situational awareness and you won't take hits.
Enagage with an advantage. If the jug is week up front then don't go head to head. Find it's strengths and use them.
And if the situation turns bad, extend or run!.

WUAF_Badsight
10-03-2004, 04:35 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by VMF-214_Pappy:
Controls shot out too often. The Jug had metal control rods known to withstand large caliber machine gun fire but bf109 13mm and 15mm take mine out often. . <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

the reason you notice controls being shot out a lot is . . . . . . . the Jug is so tuff that the only thing bandits can hurt is your controls

Maple_Tiger
10-03-2004, 07:18 AM
I have noticed the same thing Pappy.

Quite a few times now, I have been hit by a couple of mg bullits in the C/P area. Then the message apears saying. "Maple Tiger loses controls to so and so". lol.

I think thats why I now look down upon my enemy from 8km altitude. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

KGr.HH-Sunburst
10-03-2004, 08:24 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Zen--:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by robban75:
IMO, either the MG151's are porked or some planes are just flying tanks. I have real hard time downing enemy fighters with the way the MG's are modelled now. According to Faustniks(?) tests the Hispano is actually 2.25 times more effective than the MG151 in its current state. I don't doubt this for a second. Most planes drop out of the sky from short burst with the Hispano. Getting kills online is really hard right now when flying the D-9. Sure I have no problem lining up on an enemy fighter and score hits, but most of the time I fail to down them.

Sorry for leading this thread in the wrong direction, I'll stop now. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Your experience matches mine Robban, and I have begun to dislike the MG151/20. Their performance in AEP has really taken alot of the enjoyment out of flying the Dora for me. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

same for me here ,its very frustrating to spend alot of time behind a P51/P47 knowing you need half or a whole ammo load to down one plane
its a very huge problem because getting in and out is a key factor while flying Dora or A4/5/6
staying with ur target for a long time will result in getting your self killed while others take notice of you.

im glad i see alot of guys flying spits because atleast i can down them in 2 or 3 passes (but even thats to much lol)

Atomic_Marten
10-03-2004, 09:04 AM
If we discuss online gaming I think that area is pretty clear. And anyone that was played this game for a while can tell what planes are most succesfull (performance). That has nothing to do with our wishes (this should be that way etc.), our favourite planes, our subjective views on issue and finally our gaming skills.

Platypus_1.JaVA
10-03-2004, 09:15 AM
When at convergence, a battery of 8X (or even 6X) .50 guns can rip up anything. But, the range at wich you fire is quite critical. Outside that range, you only chip some paint.

FW-190's are know to be quite tough. Yet, when you seem to hit some vital spot (probably a hull housed fuel tank) it breaks up and burn quite easily. No matter with what weapons you are shooting.

KGr.HH-Sunburst
10-03-2004, 10:25 AM
a side note though ,now with patch 2.04 the 190 has the WEAKEST DM off all planes because of the fuel tank issue.
It requires only ONE browning (.50 or 303)
behind the pit of the 190 to get light smoke and within 1 or 2 minutes on 50/75% fuel the 190 runs dry.

well and when another .50 cal in the wing is enough to take the 190 out of combat because of the wing dip its pretty frustrating to fly IMO

sounds like an easy kill to me

VW-IceFire
10-03-2004, 11:50 AM
At present my strategy is this. Don't get hit.

The fuel tanks definately a weak point. If you can swing it, force them to hit your wings (if your going to take a hit). Keep them away from the fuel tank. Needs to be fixed.

The 2.25 effectiveness was definately in one of the patches but I don't think its that anymore. Was that a test done on 2.04? It had changed a bit in relation to each other.

I also agree...MG-FF does more damage than the MG151/20 does. Wrong way around.

darkhorizon11
10-03-2004, 01:25 PM
Wow thats an awesome clip.

Take into consideration the range as well. A concentrated burst from 8 .50 cals at that range would even send and IL2 packing I think.

T_O_A_D
10-03-2004, 04:53 PM
I didn't read the whole thread. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif But what a great link. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

I like how when the trains get hit the smoke goes up and out the stack straight up.

Also the way the bullets throw dirt. We don't see it quite that intense in game.

Notice how tight the dispersion can be when the pilot gets a good hit coming in. Some of course are everywhere all around but a few they did a perfect job lining up on target.

Fliegeroffizier
10-03-2004, 06:41 PM
The original Guncam clip in this thread is a Great one...don't think I have seen it before.

With regard to the duration of the "firing" by the P47:
MOST Guncam footage appears in slow motion(maybe roughly 1/4 speed, so to speak). This could be due to the Capture FPS rate OR the playback rate at which most Guncam footage was viewed, after the fact, so as to be able to se Clearly what actually happened. Thus, the 21 Second clip of the original post in this thread might have been a mere 5-6 second, or 10 second 'engagement'.

As for the contention of one person in this thread that the P47 had been firing for an extended period of time, Because GunCameras activated ONLY upon the Gun(MG or Cannon) being fired at the Initiation of the GunCam Clip, that may or may not be the case, as you'll see reading the below commetns on Guncamer/GunFiring settings. [Personally, I would surmise that the 'attacking' P47 pilot in the clip openign this thread, was exercising firing discipline, ashort burst or two to establish range, deflection, and lead..and only then firing for the kill...

Anyway, below are just a few excerpts which might be of interest from "Armorers/Ground Crew" and from Pilots of P47's and P51's as to how the Guns and GunCameras were Controlled in USAAF fighters(I don't know about Luftwaffe or other air forces). You'll note that the USAAF controls were set up, apparently, so that it was Not POSSIBLE to fire Unless the guncamera was running, although one COULD run/activate the guncamera ONLY, without firing...In this regard there are some HONEST accounts by pilots of having made a firing mistake(on/near Wingmen, perhaps?) and being concerned about what the post-mission aftermath might involve once the guncamera film was processed!). Anyway here's how it worked:
QUOTE:
At preflighting the guns had to be checked to see if the solenoids were being activated to fire the gun, when the trigger was depressed. After this was determined, the guns were then made hot (a round in each chamber), which would allow the pilot to start firing the guns as soon as he turned the gun switch on. The camera was also checked to see if it was activating at the time of trigger depression and that there was film loaded properly in the camera.


P47C:Wendell's Flight Leader during his turn at defending the bomber went to close his inter cooler and inadvertently caught the "gun switch" with his flight gear. The switch had clicked from "camera only" to "gun and camera".

P51: On July 20, the Group flew an uneventful escort mission over Friedrichshafen. On the way home Goebel spotted a Bf-109 "stooging blithely along." He slipped into the six o'clock low position behind the German, and pushed the trigger. Nothing. He had inadvertently set it to "Gun Camera Only." He switched his guns back on...
UNQUOTE

That is a VERY interesting GunCam site Link in the first post of this thread, thanks!

Ohh..here's a link to another FW190 going down with a relatively short bit of attacking fire, relatively long range, this time from a P51...deflection shot with lots of lead...http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
http://members.cox.net/wasaf2004/361P51OnFW190.WMV

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif





The clip below is not directly relevant, but...
one of my favorites of a 109 going down...
http://imagehost.vendio.com/preview/wi/wileycoyote2/Bf109dead.gif

SkyChimp
10-03-2004, 07:16 PM
http://imagehost.vendio.com/preview/wi/wileycoyote2/Bf109dead.gif

One of Wiley Coyote's CFS1 clips.

WUAF_Badsight
10-03-2004, 09:57 PM
lol

NorrisMcWhirter
10-04-2004, 09:59 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by KGr.HH-Sunburst:
a side note though ,now with patch 2.04 the 190 has the WEAKEST DM off all planes because of the fuel tank issue.
It requires only ONE browning (.50 or 303)
behind the pit of the 190 to get light smoke and within 1 or 2 minutes on 50/75% fuel the 190 runs dry.

well and when another .50 cal in the wing is enough to take the 190 out of combat because of the wing dip its pretty frustrating to fly IMO

sounds like an easy kill to me <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yep....one of the more annoying things at the moment - you drop 4+ 30mm shells into a P47 just causing minor damage and then they pull up and wildly (s)pray you with those .50s from .7km away, landing about 2 which cause the good old brown smoke trail + no fuel in 2 mins chestnut.

Which joker tested the 190 for v2.04?

Cheers,
Norris

TX-Gunslinger
10-05-2004, 02:37 AM
As a 190 driver (95% A series) who loves and respects the P-47 (main mount when it's necessary to fly Red and the Aircraft is available), I'd like to share a few observations:

1) P47 - 190A Air to Air Combat tactics are very similar. Good (P47) to excellent (190) roll rates (P47 patch fix finally), zoom climb and dive - great firepower. You just have to remember FW-190A9 dive limits (800-830kmh above 2K to 750kmh or so below about 2K). In fact, I would submit that there are no other two, mid-late war planes from different countries as close together in performance as these two. On non historical servers, this is not a bad pairing if Axis/US fly together. If your flying the 190A9/8/6 against Western A/C flown by skilled pilots and you enter the battle at less than 5k, then you deserve to be shot down. I've actually had A9 to almost 11K. To do this requires patience, precision engine management and absolute aircraft control (Oh yeah and no P-47's above you watching you climb up!).

2) The greatest limitation of the Il2 sim A series FW-190 models in my mind is the wing falling off stuff over 850 klicks. The P-47 should open range, and certainly beat a 190 in a dive after a short bit, but I think the "fuzzy" historical record is fairly tight about 190 dive speed vs damage. The 190 has always seemed to me to be kind of a "compact" Jug.

3) I disagree with some of you about the 190 Gas tank. I have recently come to believe that it's actually modeled as self-sealing. Several times in the last few months I've been hit by a few .50's and my plane started to leak gas, in which case I have immediately attempted to RTB (when tactically able). I observed the "Fuel Tank Leak" damage message and saw fuel streaming out of my FW-190. A short time later, the message went away and so did the "streaming fuel". In each case I was above 50% fuel, and as I remember closer to 70% or so. Now perhaps fuel load has something to do with this. The minimum amount of gas that I take up in a 190 is 75%, regardless of server. I know the plane handles better with 25% but I'm not intentionally trying to turnfight my bird down on the deck. The first time the fuel tank sealed itself up, I thought I was imagining things but later realized as it happened again and again that this was in fact true. I'll look for a track of this when I get time. Perhaps someone else has noticed this too.

4) I've had the pleasure of flying the P-47 with Diablo and Gypsy of the 310th and being on the same team in selected competitions with Hero for some time. I have learned much more than I could possibly say here from them all. There is nothing that compares to the benefit of a group of 47's as high cover. There is absolutley nothing more comforting to hear when you are on the wrong end of a bunch of _______s(Insert Spitfire/LA-7/Mustang/Yak), than Diablo's Kentucky drawl over the Teamspeak saying "We're coming down Gun! Be right there", and then a few seconds later 32 .50 cals shreds everything that was behind you. Fireworks are entertaining to boot! I am so envious of the fact that they can push the stick forward at 11K and never have to worry about anything other than "blackout" at pullout. So far, at least in FB, that ability is much better for the pilots SA than the Kommandogerat.

5) I would submit that the first Allied aircraft to really "handle" the 190 threat, was the P-47, when it arrived in theatre.

6) In this sim if you fly the 190A, you can dive after a Jug for a while.....but while taking your shots you have to monitor your dive speed and pick your pullup point very, very carefully. In fact, I would say that if you take more than one-two good bursts at the P-47, when your both going straight down(and you better not cut the throttle cause otherwise he's opening range too quickly) from 6K and above.....you will die. When you see your IAS hit 820 or so, immediatly trim up and gently start your pull-up. If you're too heavy handed you'll either black-out (while still diving-in which case by the time you recover you're wings will be gone) or you'll rip the elevators off, which in any event means he's won.

7) As far as I'm concerned there is only one way to beat an proficiently flown P-47 in this sim, and that is to play his game. With that said, it is very very hard to do and requires much practice with the 190 flying above 7K. Throw away IL2 compare, and GET UP TO ALTITUDE with him! Take 100% fuel and work your way up to 10K +, WHILE KEEPING YOUR ENGINE COOL prior to actual engagement. It can be done, but it takes time. Many P-47 drivers will dive when they see you up there. Even though it feels like the A9 is about to fall out of the sky, if your steady it won't. You can outroll the 47 and dive to cut across the turning circle. You'll beat him to the dive (with roll rate) and accelerate quicker (for a few seconds) across the turning circle. When you fire, you better hit him.

8) With respect to P51 being hard to kill with 151/20's I don't agree totally. I don't have huge problems with this plane, when I actually connect with 20mm. Fortunatly for me, most U.S. drivers seem to pick P51's and skip the Jug. Unfortunatly the rest seem to grab the SpitIX. Either the Hispano's are way overmodeled or the 151/20's are undermodeled.

9) I never use 108's unless there are heavy bombers present.

10) I find the .50's tracers very hard to see when firing. I don't think this is right. On the other hand I can see where my outer 151/20's are going until I engage all guns then I'm kinda blind. You get porked either way. Well at least there's some consistency/balance.

Anyway, great clip, great topic. Hope I have'nt gone too far OT....

The JUG rules! Hat's off and ~S~ to all P-47 pilots in this sim. I'd fly it all the time, but don't feel like I've totally mastered my 190 yet; my struggles with it are making me a better pilot (or I'm obviously a glutten for punishment).

_Neveraine_
10-05-2004, 03:00 AM
gunslinger = http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/heart.gif

P.S Guys just remember that there are where peoples son's being shot at in those gun-camera clips

NorrisMcWhirter
10-05-2004, 05:56 AM
Hi,

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
3) I disagree with some of you about the 190 Gas tank. I have recently come to believe that it's actually modeled as self-sealing. Several times in the last few months I've been hit by a few .50's and my plane started to leak gas, in which case I have immediately attempted to RTB (when tactically able). I observed the "Fuel Tank Leak" damage message and saw fuel streaming out of my FW-190. A short time later, the message went away and so did the "streaming fuel". In each case I was above 50% fuel, and as I remember closer to 70% or so. Now perhaps fuel load has something to do with this. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

There are two flavours of 190 fuel leak.
a) 'Normal' fuel leak where "white"-coloured vapour is seen streaming from the aircraft like what you'd see from any other.

b) 'Porked 190' fuel leak where you see light brown some from the engine + an 'out of fuel' <= 2 mins later. I don't think it's a function of fuel loading because I take 75% in the A8 (cos of the OTHER fuel bug with that) and 50% for any other Anton cos they are relatively unthirsty; I've seen the problem in both cases.

_Neverraine_ makes an important point; the guncam clip may well be 'cool' to some (not me, for the following reason) but it may well show the very last moments of someone's life - we should have some respect for this.

Cheers,
Norris

TX-Gunslinger
10-05-2004, 06:04 AM
Thanks for clarifying that Norris... I had observed this wrt the "white" colored emissions....

Makes sense more sense now...

anarchy52
10-05-2004, 06:54 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Copperhead310th:
you know what.... the only thing that really bugs me about the 190 & 109 pilots in FB is that they all love that dam mk 108.
the truth of the matter is that the LW never used (from what little i know) mk 108s in fighter combat. they didn't need them to bring down most allied fighters. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You are absolutelly correct about 20mm, in WWII they were quite anough to bring down a fighter (IIRC 5 20mm hits average to down a fighter), but in FB MG151/20 is ineffective (or the planes are too strong, who the hell knows...). I mostly fly on Virtual Western Front on HL. I remember one sortie that ilustrates the MG151/20 issues really well:
squaddie and I were flying FW-190A6 and shot down 3 'stangs. Those 3 mustangs were the only aircrafts that the two of us engaged. One was PK + wing broke off after a 2 sec burst (he was doing something like a stall turn, I had plenty of speed and fired at him as he was on the top of his trajectory, motionless in the air), other 2 stangs got engine kills after a very long fight.

My squaddie scored 124 hits, I scored 118 hits.
That's 80 hits per mustang.

Other thing I have noticed while flying allied planes myself (mostly USAF) is that the damage does not nearly affect the performance and handling of the ac. as it does with german planes (FW especially)

To make a long story short: Only thing that's keeping LW fighters competitive vs other fighters in FB is Mk108: bastard weapon designed to enable small fighters to kill multiengined bombers.

P.S. On the other hand hispano 20mm (historicaly: about equal in the terms of damage to 151/20) seems quite effective, although I admit I haven't tried it vs allied aircraft. Maybe it's the planes, not the cannons. Who knows.

and yes, of course "I is wrong" and "I is luftwhiner"...

WOLFMondo
10-05-2004, 07:13 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by NorrisMcWhirter:
Yep....one of the more annoying things at the moment - you drop 4+ 30mm shells into a P47 just causing minor damage and then they pull up and wildly (s)pray you with those .50s from .7km away, landing about 2 which cause the good old brown smoke trail + no fuel in 2 mins chestnut. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I've not seen a P47 take 4 108 hits. Generally after 1 if its good ot will damage the engine, rudder or elevator, if 1 hits the wing you either get the massive whole (which you can counter with trim) or the controls are gone either completely or just that one wing or the wing is completly gone. Are you sure its the 108 hitting? Was this online?

Probably best not overshoot the 47 if thats what happens. In a high speed dive it can pull up and turn incredibly sharply without a stall. Part of the nice thing about the P47 as well is you can pray and spray with limited success. With extra ammo it carries somthing like 3400 rounds. 700 meters is a long range but the M2 has a long range. the only reason I don't fire at that range at planes in the convergence of 300 meters means at 700 i'd probably miss every round. At 600 you stand a good chance of a few hits if your desperate or the plane your firing at is flying straight.

anarchy52
10-05-2004, 07:23 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WOLFMondo:
I've not seen a P47 take 4 108 hits. Generally after 1 if its good ot will damage the engine, rudder or elevator, if 1 hits the wing you either get the massive whole (which you can counter with trim) or the controls are gone either completely or just that one wing or the wing is completly gone.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Well, according to my experience 47 can take up to 4 mk108 hits: one in each wing and 2 in the fuselage. Next mk108 round breaks it apart no matter where it hits. But usually it doesn't take 5 mk108 to down a Jug. Most other planes will go down with 1-2 mk108 hits (although my personal record is scoring 6 or 7 mk108 hits on P-38 and NOT blasting it to pieces - it was pretty shot up but flew home as I had to disengage due to bandit on my 6).

NorrisMcWhirter
10-05-2004, 11:12 AM
Hi,

Perhaps it's a function of being on 56K but P47s always take around 4-5 "hits" to take down unless I clip one of the wing tips. I did some checking offline, too, and although it was easier to bag P47s with the peashooter..er..20mm cannon, P47s still took 4-5 hits with the mk108.

As for other planes, the P63 is robust and I have a habit of having Yak3s explode on me causing catastrophic failure to anything I'm in; this is firing from .4km.

I'd doubt it was consistently down to being on 56K but I'm not so naive to think that it couldn't account for some of it.

Cheers,
norris

griego
10-05-2004, 11:14 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by anarchy52:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WOLFMondo:
I've not seen a P47 take 4 108 hits. Generally after 1 if its good ot will damage the engine, rudder or elevator, if 1 hits the wing you either get the massive whole (which you can counter with trim) or the controls are gone either completely or just that one wing or the wing is completly gone.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Well, according to my experience 47 can take up to 4 mk108 hits: one in each wing and 2 in the fuselage. Next mk108 round breaks it apart no matter where it hits. But usually it doesn't take 5 mk108 to down a Jug. Most other planes will go down with 1-2 mk108 hits (although my personal record is scoring 6 or 7 mk108 hits on P-38 and NOT blasting it to pieces - it was pretty shot up but flew home as I had to disengage due to bandit on my 6). <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


I think your all forgetting that this was online. Where lag can affect on the outcome.

Just thought I had to point this out.

anarchy52
10-05-2004, 06:34 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by griego:
I think your all forgetting that this was online. Where lag can affect on the outcome.

Just thought I had to point this out. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I know, but game wasn't laggy...

BTW: What does USER STAT report? The server recorded hits or what il-2 on your PC "thinks" you should have scored from your own perspective?

P.S. I finally got my first kill in D9 (the 20mm peashooter thingy) vs P-51, and user stat says 41 hits in that single burst (all the others i missed - that one was only one I scored hits with).

I wanted to review the .ntrk, but while watching ntrk depending on playback speed & stuff i get very different visual:
On 1/4 speed i missed by 10 meters http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
On normal speed track shows visual damage nicely although it shows hits in the right wing, and the left wing breaks (?!?).
And I think I hit him in the left wing actually.

WUAF_Badsight
10-05-2004, 10:22 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WOLFMondo:
I've not seen a P47 take 4 108 hits. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

ive seen them take more than 4

NorrisMcWhirter
10-06-2004, 01:06 AM
Hi,

Odd how anytime a LW gun doesn't work, it's down to packet loss whereas other guns seem to work just fine with the same connection (SHVAK etc).

If I'm in an A9 and I have no 30mm left, I generally leave P47s alone because it's more trouble than it's worth to shoot it down.

Cheers,
Norris

anarchy52
10-06-2004, 02:53 AM
I'd be more than happy to lose mk108 (really a "bastard" weapon born of necesity ) if MG151/20 were at least similar to hispano or russian cannons in terms of damage. I think that ineffetiveness of german 20mm comes from 2 things:

1) they really do not do anough damage compared to other 20mm cannons - which they should because main factor is explosive power of HE shells not kinetic energy (except for AP rounds of course).

A side note: during an interview with Vladimir Kreš, a Croatian ace, someone asked him a question: Did you fear the Aircobra because of it's big 37mm cannon? He gave us a somewhat surprised look and said: No, you can shoot an aircraft with 20mm just as with 37mm it is all the same. Other thing he did not understand is engine overheat. He said he NEVER had an engine overheat http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif))

2) German planes are much more prone to damage then russian or US planes and that makes russian and US cannons seem even more effective then they really are. I mean - It takes 41 hits in the wing and wingroot from D9 to break the wing of the pony, peppering P-47 or P-51 with 20mm is useless, while FW190 and Bf-109 are seriously crippled after 3-4 hits of .50 cal. A single 20mm in the wing and you're lucky if you manage to land.

It really makes me sad, because I like to fly Bf-109/FW-190 (I'll tell you my dark secret: I like to fly P-51 and Jug also, but don't tell my squad C.O. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif)) ), and something tells me that these issues will NOT be corrected, and labeled as "luftwhining". There is no use for the charts, diagrams, statistics or interviews, Maddox just doesn't have time, or motive to do it. I understand Oleg: he has to sell the game to feed his family, but on the other hand a lot of people that bought this wonderful game fly german or japaneese planes and should be treated with respect. If Joe Sixpack wants to shoot at least half a squadron of zeros every time he takes to the sky in his 'stang, jug or corsair he should play arcade settings, but it would be nice if "full difficulty" would model the aircrafts and weapons to reflect the relative performance of their real WWII counterparts.

NorrisMcWhirter
10-06-2004, 06:18 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by anarchy52:
I'd be more than happy to lose mk108 (really a "bastard" weapon born of necesity ) if MG151/20 were at least similar to hispano or russian cannons in terms of damage. I think that ineffetiveness of german 20mm comes from 2 things:

1) they really do not do anough damage compared to other 20mm cannons - which they should because main factor is explosive power of HE shells not kinetic energy (except for AP rounds of course).

A side note: during an interview with Vladimir Kreš, a Croatian ace, someone asked him a question: Did you fear the Aircobra because of it's big 37mm cannon? He gave us a somewhat surprised look and said: No, you can shoot an aircraft with 20mm just as with 37mm it is all the same. Other thing he did not understand is engine overheat. He said he NEVER had an engine overheat http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif))

2) German planes are much more prone to damage then russian or US planes and that makes russian and US cannons seem even more effective then they really are. I mean - It takes 41 hits in the wing and wingroot from D9 to break the wing of the pony, peppering P-47 or P-51 with 20mm is useless, while FW190 and Bf-109 are seriously crippled after 3-4 hits of .50 cal. A single 20mm in the wing and you're lucky if you manage to land.

It really makes me sad, because I like to fly Bf-109/FW-190 (I'll tell you my dark secret: I like to fly P-51 and Jug also, but don't tell my squad C.O. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif)) ), and something tells me that these issues will NOT be corrected, and labeled as "luftwhining". There is no use for the charts, diagrams, statistics or interviews, Maddox just doesn't have time, or motive to do it. I understand Oleg: he has to sell the game to feed his family, but on the other hand a lot of people that bought this wonderful game fly german or japaneese planes and should be treated with respect. If Joe Sixpack wants to shoot at least half a squadron of zeros every time he takes to the sky in his 'stang, jug or corsair he should play arcade settings, but it would be nice if "full difficulty" would model the aircrafts and weapons to reflect the relative performance of their real WWII counterparts. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hear, hear.

Looking at gun comparisons, the LW 20mm (151) was not as effective as either the Hispano or SHVAK but it's not as far off as it is in this game. Pre-AEP v1.21 seemed more reasonable in terms of comparison between the SHVAK and LW 20mm.

The other thing is inconsistency; sometimes the LW cannon 'works' but most other times it is woefully bad; I doubt it should take half your ammo load to drop a Yak1 or Lagg3 which it can at times.

I'm renamed my usual ride, the 190, the greengrocer bird cos it's about as far removed from a butcher that you can get,

So, Oleg, please recheck the 151/20 so we don't have to hear Amiwhiners moaning about the mk108.

Cheers,
Norris

Cajun76
10-06-2004, 06:21 AM
One thing to note is that many planes in WWII were not always brought down by catastrophic damage. Sometimes it only took a few hits. I was flying the A8 (standard armament, not gunboat loadout) the other day against two squad members flying P-47s. Although I got a few good hits, I didn't rip off a wing or anything, but they both were forced to land due to damage. To me, this still counts a kill. I'm sure the pilot(s) who intially hit Robert S. Johnson's P-47 with 20+ 20mm thought they had a kill. Egon Mayer?, who found Johnson over the Channel later that day may have even claimed a kill after hosing down the Jug with his remaining MG ammo. Online, many players won't leave a plane until it's falling or burning, and this is not always historical. From my experience of flying the Jug before and during 2.01, making a pass and leaving was often the only option. You had to get a good enough burst with that shotgun effect to at least hurt them enough so that they would eventually crash or run out of fuel, without the "sharks" smelling blood and taking out an already (hopefully) crippled plane. Additionally, I see a lot of 190's spaying that heavy armament around, and they are getting far less hits than they might think. Also, when figuring out how many hits it took to take out a particular a/c with say, the 190, some of those hits are likely MG, and won't do a great deal of damage unless care is taken to ain at spots vulerable to MGs, like the top of the pit. I do think the German 20mm are a bit too weak though.


EDIT: Whoa there, what's this? Why are you bashing America, Norris? Should everyone start calling it Ger-whining, Deutchwhining, or some such? Amiwhining? Why not Air Corp whining or something. Why is it nessecary to bring nationalistic bias into a friendly discussion? I think sticking to the respective air arms of each country ought keep it a bit more civil. When someone says "Luftwhiner", they referring to someone who has a beef about how a/c fielded by the Luftwaffe are moddled in the game. "Amiwhiner" seems to imply more than just a/c in realation. A bit of a national jibe, instead of a comment being focused on the piont of discussion, Army Air Corp planes, or soon to come, US Navy a/c.

anarchy52
10-06-2004, 08:40 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Cajun76:

EDIT: Whoa there, what's this? Why are you bashing America, Norris? Should everyone start calling it Ger-whining, Deutchwhining, or some such? Amiwhining? Why not Air Corp whining or something. Why is it nessecary to bring nationalistic bias into a friendly discussion? I think sticking to the respective air arms of each country ought keep it a bit more civil. When someone says "Luftwhiner", they referring to someone who has a beef about how a/c fielded by the Luftwaffe are moddled in the game. "Amiwhiner" seems to imply more than just a/c in realation. A bit of a national jibe, instead of a comment being focused on the piont of discussion, Army Air Corp planes, or soon to come, US Navy a/c. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I propose the term "YankWhiner" to be used for individuals who complain about the performance of USAF (or was it USAAF in WWII) aircrafts without valid arguments and without basic understanding of flight physics. There are plenty of them, be sure (.50 cals vs Tiger tanks and the latest P-38 whine come to mind).

So what do you say?
IMHO Yankwhiner sounds much better then amiwhiner or USAFwhiner.

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

NorrisMcWhirter
10-06-2004, 09:54 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Cajun76:
One thing to note is that many planes in WWII were not always brought down by catastrophic damage. Sometimes it only took a few hits. I was flying the A8 (standard armament, not gunboat loadout) the other day against two squad members flying P-47s. Although I got a few good hits, I didn't rip off a wing or anything, but they both were forced to land due to damage. To me, this still counts a kill. I'm sure the pilot(s) who intially hit Robert S. Johnson's P-47 with 20+ 20mm thought they had a kill. Egon Mayer?, who found Johnson over the Channel later that day may have even claimed a kill after hosing down the Jug with his remaining MG ammo. Online, many players won't leave a plane until it's falling or burning, and this is not always historical. From my experience of flying the Jug before and during 2.01, making a pass and leaving was often the only option. You had to get a good enough burst with that shotgun effect to at least hurt them enough so that they would eventually crash or run out of fuel, without the "sharks" smelling blood and taking out an already (hopefully) crippled plane. Additionally, I see a lot of 190's spaying that heavy armament around, and they are getting far less hits than they might think. Also, when figuring out how many hits it took to take out a particular a/c with say, the 190, some of those hits are likely MG, and won't do a great deal of damage unless care is taken to ain at spots vulerable to MGs, like the top of the pit. I _do_ think the German 20mm are a bit too weak though. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Agreed. It's a valid point about the damage and something I've raised, myself, before. In DF servers, for example, it's necessary to obtain a quick kill for no other reason than to prevent other's stealing it rather than the far more realistic scenario of hitting your target in one good pass and leaving him sufficiently stricken not to be able to engage in combat any further or, better still, not to get home.

However, we've all seen planes that are absolutely peppered and with bits missing still handling well enough to maintain combat whilst others, with slight damage, become relatively unflyable. A limitation of virtual flying, you might say...

The point about the 190 is that you do see a lot of people spraying 30mm fire (and I shake my head at this, too) but it's quite obvious whether you've hit something or not due to the explosive effect. Personally, I don't use this weapon unless I'm 300m away or less - I leave the 20mms for firing in combination with 30mms or for "longer range" (no more than 500m) hopeful pot shots. Even at that, though, you *see* the 30mm hits landing and a P47 can still can take 4 hits - this brings us back to online issues, presumably.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
EDIT: Whoa there, what's this? Why are you bashing America, Norris? Should everyone start calling it Ger-whining, Deutchwhining, or some such? Amiwhining? Why not Air Corp whining or something. Why is it nessecary to bring nationalistic bias into a friendly discussion? I think sticking to the respective air arms of each country ought keep it a bit more civil. When someone says "Luftwhiner", they referring to someone who has a beef about how a/c fielded by the Luftwaffe are moddled in the game. "Amiwhiner" seems to imply more than just a/c in realation. A bit of a national jibe, instead of a comment being focused on the piont of discussion, Army Air Corp planes, or soon to come, US Navy a/c. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think we both know that I'm the first to have a say when any xenophobia has crept in and also that the term is oddly generic in that it encompasses the 'allied' aircraft.

To cut a long story short, I let myself down and went "ad homnium" as my use of the term was directed directly at the person who complained about the mk108 and whom, as we both also know, has a particularly poor record in making OTT/xenophobic remarks (and that's being kind). So, apologies to all those Americans (and allied plane fans, presumably) who do have some sense of proportion.

Also, as you are clearly a xenophobia "czar" , I'll be expecting you to pop up in future threads to check the behaviour of your countrymen, also http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Cheers,
Norris

Stoyanov
10-24-2004, 06:23 AM
For all those who doubt what the FW-190 can do to a P-47.... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

FW vs P-47 (http://www.vnvv.com/download/FWvsP-47.avi)

Cajun76
10-24-2004, 06:45 AM
Great vid. Did the 190 run out of ammo trying to bring down that Jug? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

NegativeGee
10-24-2004, 09:44 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Cajun76:
Great vid. Did the 190 run out of ammo trying to bring down that Jug? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It is a good vid (esp. the bit where you see the vortices on the Thunderbolt's wingtips) but there was very little firing.

Eagle_361st
10-24-2004, 09:48 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by crazyivan1970:
I`v flown agaisnt 361st, they were dropping like flies http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hmm I see while the Eagle is away the mice will play. Time to swat some pesky 109's from the sky. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif

As for what the Jug can do, I have had the honor to fly with most of the top notch Jug drivers in the game. Diablo, Hero, Koro, Cajun, the 56th boys, my boys in the 361st to name just a few of the best and so on and I can assure you that whatever we pick as our target is going down with ease. It's as much pilot as it is plane. We just prefer the big beautiful hotrod of the skies as our ride.

darkhorizon11
10-24-2004, 03:57 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Stoyanov:
For all those who doubt what the FW-190 can do to a P-47.... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

http://www.vnvv.com/download/FWvsP-47.avi <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually it didn't seem to do much, I saw one major hit on the inboard left wing but the T-bolt didn't even flinch.