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View Full Version : The P-51 vs. the Bf-109!



texhill88
08-04-2006, 08:13 PM
I dont know who would win the p-51 is a very good plane and so is the 109 so help me out! send screenshots or advice or something!

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/touche.gif

texhill88
08-04-2006, 08:13 PM
I dont know who would win the p-51 is a very good plane and so is the 109 so help me out! send screenshots or advice or something!

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/touche.gif

geetarman
08-04-2006, 08:21 PM
Any 109 can be handled in a P-51 if you avoid a slow, close-in dogfight below 18,000'. Above that, you can engage in a turn fight if you start with an advantage. But, why bother? Shoot them as they take off.

The G-10 is good and the latest K-4 is very good, so watch out for them. Just hit them b4 they see u. If spotted, it's twice as hard.

Divine-Wind
08-04-2006, 08:23 PM
In my opinion, they're both pretty evenly matched; Good firepower, good maneuverability, they can boom & zoom or get into a turning fight (if you're pretty good with the Mustang, that is), and they have great speed. So I guess it would come down to who's the better/luckier pilot.

Personally, though, I'd take the Messerschmitt, mainly because I have better luck in it than the P-51. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

Xiolablu3
08-04-2006, 08:43 PM
It depends on the situation who would win.

If its a slow turning close in dogfight then the Bf109 will probably win. (and the P51 pilot should kick himself for allowing it to degenerate into that)

If its a very fast, attack-and-zoom-keeping-at-high speed fight, then the P51 holds all the cards. The 109 cannot turn at fast speeds.

Try taking a Bf109 over 400k and pulling up, the elevator just doesnt respond. The P51's is great even at high speed.

If you are in a P51, then stay fast and the Bf109 will have a hard time.

If you are in a 109 then try and get the P51 to slow down (although if hes a good pilot, you will not be able too). If you can get him to slow down by hard manouvres and getting him to follow, then you should be able to kill him quite easily.

Remember that a good P51 pilot will not follow you through hard manouvres tho, he will simply zoom away and come back down on you, so its a big gamble to yank hard and lose all your E.

ModelNo
08-04-2006, 09:04 PM
You guys just never get it, year after year after year, you never listen and never learn.

I do not like Chuck Yeager, but he was right when he said that it was not the plane, the guy with the most experience will win every time.

So there you go again..........

tigertalon
08-04-2006, 09:08 PM
I agree with Xiola, but only in situation where P51 already has E advantage.

If you start equal E, there simply is nothing you can do against experienced 109 flyer - he has nearly same speed (at nearly all altitudes), climbs far better, is slightly more manouverable, and most important, bleeds WAY less E (btw that's the problem of this sim in general when comparing TnB and BnZ planes: they don't bleed E historically: TnBs should bleed more as they do now or BnZ should bleed less).

In dueling 1v1 equal E P-51 in this sim has no real options versus late 109s. Best tactics on dogfight servers is drag n bag.

tigertalon
08-04-2006, 09:13 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ModelNo:
You guys just never get it, year after year after year, you never listen and never learn.

I do not like Chuck Yeager, but he was right when he said that it was not the plane, the guy with the most experience will win every time.

So there you go again.......... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, he was right when he was talking about RL, not flight sims. No real pilot could amount a tiny fraction of experience most of us here have, simply because of refly option. U die u learn. They died they died.

In this sim pilot experience counts ONLY if both pilots are newbies/less experienced. When pilots are decent and put one in a HurriMk1 and the other in a Fw190, Fw will win 8/10, and guess what, result will be the same also after you will switch the pilot.

fordfan25
08-04-2006, 10:06 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ModelNo:
You guys just never get it, year after year after year, you never listen and never learn.

I do not like Chuck Yeager, but he was right when he said that it was not the plane, the guy with the most experience will win every time.

So there you go again.......... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>ok next time we are both in HL we will fly a few rounds. you take a hellcat and ill take a ki84c may the best man win lol http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Xiolablu3
08-04-2006, 11:20 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by tigertalon:
I agree with Xiola, but only in situation where P51 already has E advantage.

If you start equal E, there simply is nothing you can do against experienced 109 flyer - he has nearly same speed (at nearly all altitudes), climbs far better, is slightly more manouverable, and most important, bleeds WAY less E (btw that's the problem of this sim in general when comparing TnB and BnZ planes: they don't bleed E historically: TnBs should bleed more as they do now or BnZ should bleed less).

In dueling 1v1 equal E P-51 in this sim has no real options versus late 109s. Best tactics on dogfight servers is drag n bag. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I know what you mean TT, but if I was in a P51 (in fact any faster plane which cannot turn as well as the opposition) and found myself co-alt with a 109, I would extend back towards my own lines becasue I have the speed to get away. Its simply not worth the risk. The 109 is a better dogfighter, so I wouldnt risk it turning into a dogfight.

Come back with more height and maybe teammates. I wouldnt say these are exactly defensive tactics, its simply common sense. Dont get into a turnfight, its not the P51's forte.

If you are at co alt with any plane and have the speed to get away, then you may as well extend and get some height so that you have an advantage. Thats the great advantage of the faster planes, being able to dictate if the fight takes place or not. Why enter a fight at equal odds when you can make sure you are at an advantage?

The P51 is fast enough most of the time to ensure this. If you dont give the 109 a chance to use its best tactic vs the P51 (low speed turnfighting) then he is very unlikely to get any hits on you.

Of course if you want to play airquake, score 4-5 kills a sortie and dont care whether you live or die, then the P51 is not for you. If you fly realistically, like your life depended on it, then the P51 is a good fighter.

Xiolablu3
08-04-2006, 11:49 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by fordfan25:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ModelNo:
You guys just never get it, year after year after year, you never listen and never learn.

I do not like Chuck Yeager, but he was right when he said that it was not the plane, the guy with the most experience will win every time.

So there you go again.......... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>ok next time we are both in HL we will fly a few rounds. you take a hellcat and ill take a ki84c may the best man win lol http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hehe, I would actually take this on, but expect to lose obviously http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I am finding the 'cats' better and better versus Zeros and Oscars the more experience I get. I used to far prefer the Zero, but now its equal, I will fly either and do equally well in both.

I expect to start prefering and doing better in the 'Cats' soon.

I actually prefer the Cats to the Corsair in the sim, becasue my Corsair wobbles so badly, just like the P51 used to before the latest patch.

darkhorizon11
08-05-2006, 12:08 AM
Well if the 109 was modeled correctly with the right elevator authority, low altitude performance and...

kidding! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

cawimmer430
08-05-2006, 03:55 AM
BF-109: Turn-fighter, excellent slow-speed handling, lousy high-speed handling

P-51: Boom & Zoom, dismal slow speed handling, excellent high-speed handling

Most important though, the winner will USUALLY be the BETTER PILOT. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

slipBall
08-05-2006, 04:17 AM
(quote)
BF-109: Turn-fighter, excellent slow-speed handling, lousy high-speed handling


I find the 109 handling excellent through all speed levels. Higher speeds, delivering better handling

carguy_
08-05-2006, 04:29 AM
Above replies consider only the P51D(NT/NA).

P51B and C have all the above advantages plus they can engage in a turnfight with the 109 above 180km/h.

To cut it short,the P51 has a good advantage over 109 until fall of `44 where it gets very different handling characteristics.

cawimmer430
08-05-2006, 04:41 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by slipBall:
(quote)
BF-109: Turn-fighter, excellent slow-speed handling, lousy high-speed handling


I find the 109 handling excellent through all speed levels. Higher speeds, delivering better handling </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I do to actually, but coming out of dives or turning at higher speeds is pretty hard with the 109. The Mustang performs better in this criteria.

I fly the 109 all the time, one of my favorites. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

slipBall
08-05-2006, 04:48 AM
I cut way back on the throttle on higher speed turns, usally at around 30% throttle http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Kocur_
08-05-2006, 06:46 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by carguy_:
Above replies consider only the P51D(NT/NA).

P51B and C have all the above advantages plus they can engage in a turnfight with the 109 above 180km/h.

To cut it short,the P51 has a good advantage over 109 until fall of `44 where it gets very different handling characteristics. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Agree. P-51C can manage Bf-109G2 not to mention G6 quite easily as long as, until certain point, Mustang pilot keeps it fast. What I do after co-alt meeting (which is usually followed by rather tight turn after my tail by Bf-109 pilot...) is high speed shallow climb until proper separation, followed by wide, high speed turn at shallow climb sometimes too. After that its dropping down and a pass. After my target is damaged I may feel free to stick to his tail - P-51C with combat flaps (thanks to Spitfireperformance I know now its 'legitimate' to use them http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif) can stay on Bf-109G2/6 tail long enough to get enough hits to kill it or at very least cripple it beyound ability to do stall-tight turns, which means the same soon after... Generally speaking I find P-51C able to manage any up-to-1943 enemy and in offensive fashion too, not just run away.

In case of P-51D and late 109s its different. Mustang loses a lot in climb relatively to 109s (D is heavier than C and late 109s climb better than 1942/3 ones), but down low P-51D is still faster horizontally so disengage after finding oneself in disadvantaged situation should not be a problem if it wasnt too late since the beginning. Lets all have in mind that most of Mustangs, for which C and D stand in the game, were actually low to mid alts, not high alt fighters! For V-1650-7 that powered them was US analogue of Merlin 66 from LF Spitfires!

karost
08-05-2006, 07:31 AM
if 1vs1....

if 2 pilot has same experience and both know each ohter strength and weakness of each plane
then situation is a key.

over 5k, p51 has more strength in hi-speed bnz or h2h at long distance and run like he11 to make extend and turn back to do the same thing , just a single mistake bf109 show then game is over.

below 3k to the deck, the table is change if combat take longer and both drop to the deck then it's a time for bf109 , p-51 stay in high risk to get kill after shutdown coz he can not bail out over the deck. ( in real life has no refly key...)

S!

Frequent_Flyer
08-05-2006, 08:01 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ModelNo:
You guys just never get it, year after year after year, you never listen and never learn.

I do not like Chuck Yeager, but he was right when he said that it was not the plane, the guy with the most experience will win every time.
So there you go again.......... </div></BLOCKQUOTE> Chuck also said, after test flying the Spitfire, 109,190 and the Yak ( eventually almost every fighter aircraft) the Mustang was better than any of them ....