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RAF238thKnight
01-22-2007, 05:06 AM
Just a question that I think needs to be asked. What is the engine fitted to the Spitfire LF IXc 1943?

is it a Merlin 66 Engine
or a Merlin 61 Engine

Because when running test on both types the data is not correct. What data are you using just for sea level speed Please Post?

Knight

mynameisroland
01-22-2007, 05:09 AM
Merlin 66,

The Spitfire IX in game misses out the 61 and 63 engined variants completely. The IX H.F has a Merlin 71 IIRC ?

Brain32
01-22-2007, 05:30 AM
SpitfireIX have Merlin66, the HF version has Merlin70, they perfectly match sea level speed, presented on Spitfireperformance site, not only do they match it but they can hold it using only 85% power +WEP and thus never overheat http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif

RAF238thKnight
01-22-2007, 05:31 AM
In Quick Mission Builder fly that IXc Supposed Merlin 66 Engine and then try to match that data with the Historical data from the Spitfire Society or any other testing site. If the in game Spitfire IXc 1943 is correct then post a video from il2FB and Ill watch it.

Right now the only Spitfire to meet the data at all alts listed is the 25lb Spitfire. So is the Spitfire IX 25lb truly the Spitfire IXc LF 1943 Labeled wrong????

KNIGHT

Kwiatos
01-22-2007, 05:35 AM
Yea there is big mistery in Oleg's models of Spitfires.

Spitfire MKVb (1941) - very strange performance - speed data from different model then climb rate data - never fixed

Spitfire MKVb CW - strange combination of Clipped Wings (used for low alt fights) with Merlin 46 (engine for higher altitudes)

Spitfires MK IX C,E and MK VIII which all have the same performance in speed and climb.

The most accurate data represent Spitfire LF MKVB (normal and clipped wings) and Spitfire MK IX with Merlin 66 (E version)

In FB different between Spitfire MK IX C and E is only in arnament - they have the same performance

In FB we dont have Mark IX (L) with Merlin 61 (for medium alt) which was first version of Spitfire MK IX used in combat over Europe in 1942/1943. So all SPitfire MK IX (beside HF version) and VIII have the same performance adequate for Melin 66 engine which was designet for low alt fight - only SPitfire HF MK IX have engine Merlin 71 for high alt and with different performance.

BTW data in Oleg's Aircraft Guide.pdf have in the same also many bugs which are not represent historical data and these what we have in game.

XyZspineZyX
01-22-2007, 05:46 AM
Originally posted by RAF238thKnight:
In Quick Mission Builder fly that IXc Supposed Merlin 66 Engine and then try to match that data with the Historical data from the Spitfire Society or any other testing site. If the in game Spitfire IXc 1943 is correct then post a video from il2FB and Ill watch it.

Right now the only Spitfire to meet the data at all alts listed is the 25lb Spitfire. So is the Spitfire IX 25lb truly the Spitfire IXc LF 1943 Labeled wrong????

KNIGHT

Testing is map-dependant. Not every map, even in QMB, will give same results as local air temperature and pressures are not all the same

Doesn't solve the trouble, but the testing can't be done on just any 'ol map

mynameisroland
01-22-2007, 05:54 AM
Originally posted by RAF238thKnight:
In Quick Mission Builder fly that IXc Supposed Merlin 66 Engine and then try to match that data with the Historical data from the Spitfire Society or any other testing site. If the in game Spitfire IXc 1943 is correct then post a video from il2FB and Ill watch it.

Right now the only Spitfire to meet the data at all alts listed is the 25lb Spitfire. So is the Spitfire IX 25lb truly the Spitfire IXc LF 1943 Labeled wrong????

KNIGHT

NO the Spitfire IX 25lb is not close to a 43 Spitfire IX c L.F

JG53Frankyboy
01-22-2007, 06:49 AM
they
http://www.fourthfightergroup.com/eagles/spittest.html

have two different LF.MK.IX (18lb boost) here(imperial to metric calculations done with my Aristo AVIAT http://www.hh.schule.de/metalltechnik-didaktik/users/lu.../navigation/92-1.jpg (http://www.hh.schule.de/metalltechnik-didaktik/users/luetjens/rechenschieber/navigation/92-1.jpg) ):
one with
336mph at SL and 407mph at 22.000ft as max
( 540km/h SL and 657km/h at 6700m)

one with
330mph at SL and 397mph at 20.000ft as max
(530km/h at SL and 640km/h at 6100m)


il2compare is giving
538km/h at SL and 658km/h at 7000m as max



i reached on the Crimea map:
~535km/h TAS at SL and ~645km/h TAS at 6700m and ~655km/h TAS at 7000m


the LF.MK.IX (25lb boost) is given in the mentioned link with 354mph at SL (570km/h)......... not "directly" the speed of the ingame LF.IX (18lb boost) at SL at least http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

WWMaxGunz
01-22-2007, 08:13 AM
Originally posted by Brain32:
SpitfireIX have Merlin66, the HF version has Merlin70, they perfectly match sea level speed, presented on Spitfireperformance site, not only do they match it but they can hold it using only 85% power +WEP and thus never overheat http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif

WEP is only supposed to make a difference at over 100% power.

What happens when you go from 85% power to 110% then? Any faster?

Brain32
01-22-2007, 08:31 AM
Originally posted by WWMaxGunz:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Brain32:
SpitfireIX have Merlin66, the HF version has Merlin70, they perfectly match sea level speed, presented on Spitfireperformance site, not only do they match it but they can hold it using only 85% power +WEP and thus never overheat http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif

WEP is only supposed to make a difference at over 100% power.

What happens when you go from 85% power to 110% then? Any faster? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Didn't you know Spitfires don't have 0-110% range? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Only 0-100% available http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
About what happens - nothing, the only difference is you can't accelerate or climb as good as on 100% However, no plane in the game can do this http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

JG53Frankyboy
01-22-2007, 09:19 AM
Originally posted by Brain32:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by WWMaxGunz:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Brain32:
SpitfireIX have Merlin66, the HF version has Merlin70, they perfectly match sea level speed, presented on Spitfireperformance site, not only do they match it but they can hold it using only 85% power +WEP and thus never overheat http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif

WEP is only supposed to make a difference at over 100% power.

What happens when you go from 85% power to 110% then? Any faster? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Didn't you know Spitfires don't have 0-110% range? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Only 0-100% available http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
About what happens - nothing, the only difference is you can't accelerate or climb as good as on 100% However, no plane in the game can do this http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

as long you leave the throttle linked to the pitch lever (called automatik in game) the Spit IX will be slower at 85% than on 100%.
sure, if you disable the link, and let the pitch at 100% and only reduces the throttle to 85% - the speed loss in levelflight will be not much, iff any at all.
so behave all planes in game with a CSP !

Brain32
01-22-2007, 09:38 AM
a) but wouldn't it overheat regardless
b) "a)" is irrelevant as I did not touch PP control, what I did was I tested some planes for level speed, a thing I do after every update, I hit the 537kmh(OMG 3kmh less than it says on Spitperf site http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif ) with SpitMkIXe normally, then I reduced the trotthle to 85% and kept going, and going and going, the speed did not drop, not even by 1kmh, and there was apsolutely no overheat.
Right or wrong - I don't know, but it's there and it does not work with other planes http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

RAF238thKnight
01-22-2007, 10:30 AM
WOW Crimea Map LOL.

Crimea is not Normandy or Britain. I still can not reach the numbers with the Spitfire IXc 1943 with Merlin 66 Engine show me on a track PLS other wise your proof is in what you say. I still am not getting it.
Sea Level- LEVEL Flight not off a dive still did not reach the data posted at the spitfire website or any other site.

What is the temperature of the Normandy Map vs the Temperature of the Crimea Map or ISA??

The problem that I am having is that I tested again on Normandy Map I can only reach in the Merlin 66 Engine 447 at sea level and 453 with WEP on.

Show me on the Normandy Map in coop mission with out diving into it level speed. In the Test they are turning on the MS Gear sooner then what Oleg has set at Auromatic, can we get this so that we can advance our own stages in the super charger??

KNIGHT

Brain32
01-22-2007, 11:51 AM
First of all, not I, not anybody here and most importantly - not anybody of the il2 series developement team cares for testing done on any other map except Crimea. Crimea is official testing map. All and every FM bugs are presented by testing on the Crimea map.

The problem that I am having is that I tested again on Normandy Map I can only reach in the Merlin 66 Engine 447 at sea level and 453 with WEP on.
Did you try to turn on the engine? No, seriously man even the 1941 SpitfireMkVb can achieve this speed at sea level. Sorry, maybe it's a typing error?

JG52Karaya-X
01-22-2007, 11:59 AM
Originally posted by RAF238thKnight:
WOW Crimea Map LOL.

Crimea is not Normandy or Britain.

What the H does that have to do with anything?

Point is that the Crimea map is the only map ingame that according to Oleg has standard athmospheric conditions so any kind of FM test has to be done there, if you don't any kind of comparison becomes mere speculation.

And about the 447 and 453 speeds: You must be joking right? In a quick test I easily got it to at least 520km/h sealevel, I didnt spend much time and effort on it so with a little patience there certainly are another 10km/h to get out of it.

BTW you should post what kind of realism settings you use when testing (CEM, winds&turbulence, etc...).


I still can not reach the numbers with the Spitfire IXc 1943 with Merlin 66 Engine show me on a track PLS other wise your proof is in what you say. I still am not getting it.

Now that's some attitude. You are the one stating it does not reach real life values so it is your job prooving that claim.

XyZspineZyX
01-22-2007, 02:50 PM
Originally posted by RAF238thKnight:
WOW Crimea Map LOL.

Crimea is not Normandy or Britain. I still can not reach the numbers with the Spitfire IXc 1943 with Merlin 66 Engine show me on a track PLS other wise your proof is in what you say. I still am not getting it.
Sea Level- LEVEL Flight not off a dive still did not reach the data posted at the spitfire website or any other site.

What is the temperature of the Normandy Map vs the Temperature of the Crimea Map or ISA??

The problem that I am having is that I tested again on Normandy Map I can only reach in the Merlin 66 Engine 447 at sea level and 453 with WEP on.

Show me on the Normandy Map in coop mission with out diving into it level speed. In the Test they are turning on the MS Gear sooner then what Oleg has set at Auromatic, can we get this so that we can advance our own stages in the super charger??

KNIGHT

You are absolutely right, Crimea is not Normandy or Britian. But you do appreciate the fact that atmospheric conditions affect the performance of internal combustion engines, I assume

You may not like the fact, but it is irrefutable that the maps do feature their own specific local conditions

In any case, I have just made the ttrack you'd like so very much to see.

In it, I am on the Normandy I map, in a Spitty Mk IXc. Full switch except for cockpit and external views

I am pleased to say that at as close to sea level as I like to fly using only trim, I acheived a sustainable true air speed of 531 kmh, in a very gentle climb. I didn't check to see if it would go faster in absolute level flight, as Pointe du Hoc was looming nearby, and I'd proven to myself what I wanted to prove

Your first trouble here is that you refuse to listen to the wisdom of others concerning testing maps

Second trouble seems that you are looking perhaps at indicated airspeed. make sure you use no-cockpit mode, as this will show TAS

I have a brand new shiny cable internet connection and would be thrilled to use it to send you the track I just made, so you may see for yourself what a Mk IXc does at sea level on the Normandy map. Please indicate if you'd like the track.

RAF238thKnight
01-22-2007, 02:54 PM
Yes the engine is on and was tested with another person that fly's regularly on our server and we both had different readings as we flew both of us in trim at level flight we had a difference of 40 miles per hour indicated on the MPH guages in the cockpit.

Everyone can have an Opinion and I have stated mine and still have not seen one nrtk from cockpit or open proving to me that you are reaching those speeds in a IXc 1943. Not the 25lb boost.

Knight

XyZspineZyX
01-22-2007, 02:59 PM
Coming your way. Spit IXc, 1943

~edit- before I forget, you shouldn't post your e-mail addy like that unless you want a lot of spam. PM next time http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

RAF238thKnight
01-22-2007, 03:28 PM
Well retested and got 510 on the Normandy map rechecked a few things so is there is a dif. of 34 to the data released by spitperf website.

What is the SL speed of the 25lb no wep Normandy Map. In comparison to the data provided by the spitperf website??

Thanks

Knight

VW-IceFire
01-22-2007, 04:25 PM
Originally posted by RAF238thKnight:
Just a question that I think needs to be asked. What is the engine fitted to the Spitfire LF IXc 1943?

is it a Merlin 66 Engine
or a Merlin 61 Engine

Because when running test on both types the data is not correct. What data are you using just for sea level speed Please Post?

Knight
Almost every Spitfire in the game is labeled incorrectly or does not contain all of the details. There are many misnomers floating around about the different versions in the game.

For instance, the "Spitfire Mark IXc" in the game is actually a "Spitfire Mark LF.IXc". The "Spitfire Mark LF.IXc" in the game is actually just a clipped wing version. LF in RAF lingo designates aircraft that are specially geared (supercharger gear ratios, sort of like automatic transmission on a car) for low altitude operations. Actually its "low altitude" because in the case of the Spitfire IX and the 60 Series Merlin engine its actually a case of a bit lower with the Merlin 66 than with the Merlin 61/63.

Ultimately we have the following Spitfire versions (ignoring clipped wing)

Spitfire LF.VIII (Merlin 66)
Spitfire LF.IXc (Merlin 66)
Spitfire LF.IXe (Merlin 66)
Spitfire HF.IXe (Merlin 70)

All of these models are within a hairs breath of each other for performance. Slight advantages and disadvantages to each. The HF.IXe is by far the worst performer of the IX line at low altitude and yet I constantly see pilots choosing the HF.IXe over the LF.IXe models and then flying them around at 500m. This makes zero sense to me.

The game does not have a Merlin 61/63 series Spitfire IX and if it did the correct designation would be Spitfire F.IXc (there were no e type armament configurations with this engine as far as I know). Another misnomer is that Oleg has somehow shorchanged everyone by selecting the LF model instead of the more general F model. This is also not true (not implying that you're saying this but just a general impression). The F.IX models were made in numbers rounded out to about 300 production examples. The remaining thousands of Spitfire IX models were nearly all LF.IX in full and clipped wing forms.

The LF.IX was basically geared to be faster than the FW190 that the RAF was testing at all altitudes. While the F.IX model managed to be overall faster than the FW190 there were altitudes where the FW190 was faster. The solution was to kick the supercharger in sooner (around 22,000 feet instead of 27,000 feet) and match the FW190 for speed across virtually the entire range of speeds (except for sea level to my knowledge).

Finally I should point out that a number of books call the Spitfire's with clipped wings the Spitfire LF IX or LF V. This is not true. While many LF V's were clipped wing configuration, the LF and F are purely for engine and nothing to do with wings. Books, particularly pilot memoirs, will also mention the "Spitfire IX-B" which is a Spitfire LF.IX before the RAF came up with the official naming scheme (as some squadrons had the F.IX or IX-A by pilots notation). You'll find that many pilots continued to call it a IX-B in their log books despite the officialdom.

Hopefully that clears it up http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

RAF238thKnight
01-22-2007, 06:11 PM
Hey Icefire,

Just a curious question why is the 25lb spit on the Normandy map a perfect match at speeds to the LF 66 model in the game in comparison to the data given to us by the spitfire performance website.

If you read the data page alt speeds for an 18lb spit 66 they actually match the 25lb spit in game. We had four different PILOTS TEST the plane.

Another question is why dont we have control over the MS and FS gear like they did in history??

Knight

Brain32
01-22-2007, 06:29 PM
Just a curious question why is the 25lb spit on the Normandy map a perfect match at speeds to the LF 66 model in the game in comparison to the data given to us by the spitfire performance website.
I just don't see how http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif
Just out of curiosity I gave it a try at Normandy map:
SpitMkIXc I got up to 533kmh TAS on sea level, Spitperf says as apsolute best - 336mph = 540kmh(-7kmh).
Spit25lBS I got up to 572kmh TAS on sea level, Spitperf says as apsolute best - 358mph = 576kmh(-4kmh).
Note that on the site you can also find 330mph(530kmh) for the MkIX +18lbs and 354mph(569kmh) for the MkIX +25lbs http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

RAF238thKnight
01-22-2007, 06:56 PM
Worked on tests one more time got better results from before however I'm still only pulling 510 and not 533kmph.

That was with WEP on and the tests from the spit website did not engage WEP to reach the 545 kmph.

So why should we have to engage WEP to reach a speed that was achievable with out it?

Knight

Brain32
01-22-2007, 07:06 PM
...the tests from the spit website did not engage WEP...
How did you came to that conclusion? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

RAF238thKnight
01-22-2007, 07:27 PM
Show me where it states that the pilot in his records engaged WEP on any of the test data sheets??

Quote:
Maximum level speed at sea level 336
Maximum level speed at M.S. gear
full throttle height
384 m.p.h. at 10,800 ft.
Maximum level speed at F.S. gear
full throttle height
407 m.p.h. at 22,000 ft.
Level Speed at 30,000 f.t 395 m.p.h.

<span class="ev_code_RED">Level speeds corrected to 18.0 lb/sq.in. boost</span>

Also show me where the in game spit has auto MS and FS Gear and why these pilots had the ability to change the gear at lower alts??

Knight

DKoor
01-22-2007, 07:41 PM
http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o125/DKoor/il2/spit925-vs-spitlf9c-407.jpg
According to theIL2C speeds are pretty much spot on... when comparing to the game and shtperformance.com.

So there.

IL2C isn't a hard proof.
So say wise men around here.

But still we can check out what is drawn in those tables: TAS: 100% and MAX.

Ummm... what could it be? http://mission4today.com/images/smiles/017.gif

WWMaxGunz
01-22-2007, 08:02 PM
Version of IL2C we have since 4.04 or is it 4.05 is made by AI pilots that use the same FM
as we do.

That is according to Youss. Is he really a lead programmer for Maddox Games or not?

It is matchable by players -- I have that from some actual players posts.

DKoor
01-22-2007, 08:23 PM
Originally posted by WWMaxGunz:
Version of IL2C we have since 4.04 or is it 4.05 is made by AI pilots that use the same FM
as we do.

That is according to Youss. Is he really a lead programmer for Maddox Games or not?

It is matchable by players -- I have that from some actual players posts. Hey Max... I don't know. It seems that I have genuine 4.07. Who tested and how I don't know, tho. I'm only speculating. Check it out here (http://rapidshare.com/files/12949960/IL-2_Compare_v4.07m.zip.html).

RAF238thKnight
01-22-2007, 08:28 PM
Just look at 100% AT Sea level not even over 520 again that is at least 40 km/h OFF. Show me in the TAS at 100% throttle the Spitfire is reaching 545 or within 530 to 540 at sea level??

MAX is with WEP engaged 540 now that is good, but you are adding boost when the test was done at 18lbs NO WEP ENGAGED. If so show me data that proves the later becuse when anyone reads the Spitperformance pages they do not state WEP engaged they state at max power to the boosted engine which at the time was 18lbs for the Merlin 66 Engine.

Knight

WWMaxGunz
01-22-2007, 09:37 PM
That is the same one I have.
I have sent a PM to ROSS_YOUSS asking him to repost about the utility.

JG53Frankyboy
01-23-2007, 12:59 AM
Originally posted by RAF238thKnight:
Just look at 100% AT Sea level not even over 520 again that is at least 40 km/h OFF. Show me in the TAS at 100% throttle the Spitfire is reaching 545 or within 530 to 540 at sea level??

MAX is with WEP engaged 540 now that is good, but you are adding boost when the test was done at 18lbs NO WEP ENGAGED. If so show me data that proves the later becuse when anyone reads the Spitperformance pages they do not state WEP engaged they state at max power to the boosted engine which at the time was 18lbs for the Merlin 66 Engine.

Knight

may i ask what max speed at SL or full throttle alt a Spit IX than should have ??

im no Rolls Royce Merlin knower - but wasnt these 18lb not only achieved with all you had - meaning in game using 100% + WEP ?

anyway, the game is very simplyfying the system of Military power and WarEmergency power settings......... well, its a game.

JG52Karaya-X
01-23-2007, 02:03 AM
Originally posted by RAF238thKnight:
MAX is with WEP engaged 540 now that is good, but you are adding boost when the test was done at 18lbs NO WEP ENGAGED. If so show me data that proves the later becuse when anyone reads the Spitperformance pages they do not state WEP engaged they state at max power to the boosted engine which at the time was 18lbs for the Merlin 66 Engine.

18lbs is the maximum rated output manifold pressure so when any test is run at that it is FULL POWER + WEP, otherwise you wont reach 18lbs...

JG53Frankyboy
01-23-2007, 02:06 AM
Originally posted by RAF238thKnight:

MAX is with WEP engaged 540 now that is good, but you are adding boost when the test was done at 18lbs NO WEP ENGAGED.

ok, im no native english speaker - so i can be totaly wrong.
but my understanding reading the Spifire performing tests is that this 18lb and/or 25lb can only be reached in boost mode - that i understand they mean WEP...........

such is also described the 12lb setting in the Spitfire Mk.I/II during the BoB by Alfred Price in his Spitfire I/II Aces volume of the Osprey series - the 12lb with 100Octan fuel could be used by advancing the throttle "trough the gate" for 5 minutes to increase power till full throttle alt.

propably it would have been better if the ingame Spitfires would have the 110% throttle system (110% would mean full boost) than the 100% + WEP button...................
but actually also this 110% system has its flaws http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif - just as an example to fly a Bf109 with 103%, MW50 enabled, cooler open for 26minutes (than the fluid is emtpy) without any engine damage is , lest say, silly http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif
seeing this, the 100% + WEP is not bad.......
100% is the lever till the "gate", hitting the W button means pushing the throttle trough the gate (not all game joysticks have a barrier at 100% )

a Bf109 would so have:
100% = Kampf-/Steigleistung
100% + WEP = Start-/Notleistung
100% + WEP + enabled MW50 system (only doable without WEP engaged, otherweise engine damage !) = Sondernotleistung

JG53Frankyboy
01-23-2007, 02:23 AM
http://www.spitfireperformance.com/jl165.html

max speeds are reached in 25lb setting.
this 25lb was a 5 minutes boost (point 2.3).

so, i assume the 18lb also.............. ?!

RAF238thKnight
01-23-2007, 02:57 AM
On that page it does not say with WEP engage standard for combat operations was 25lbs boost .

The other situation has a MS and FS gear that is switchable by the pilot any chance in getting this Supercharger fixed in the 4.08 Patch??

Quote:
<span class="ev_code_RED">M.S. gear from sea level to 12,000 feet and in F.S. gear from 6,000 to 30,000 </span>

Knight

JG53Frankyboy
01-23-2007, 03:01 AM
im out here, im lost in language differences.................

for me that mentioned 5 minute "boost" is the thing called "WEP" in game.

wondering why someone want set the charger manually in game, to repeat , IN GAME (!) - the only thing you could do is making a mistake and loose power ?!?!?!
anyway, far more interesting could be that it was possible to control the radiator manualy ! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

RAF238thKnight
01-23-2007, 03:06 AM
Frankyboy give me BOTH and let this flyer decide LOL.

Pilots have to list in the test data what they did, if they engaged WEP they would have stated it.

Again standard was set to 25lbs boost they realize that did not last long so they said 5 minutes under that boost pressure only not WEP induced boost pressure.

Quote:
<span class="ev_code_RED">30 mph in all-out level speed is achieved by the increase of boost from +18 lb/sq.in. to +25 lb/sq.in.

There was no appreciable change in handling of the aircraft at +25 lb/sq.in. as compared to a standard Spitfire IX at +18 lb/sq.in

The total time flown at +25 lb/sq.in. during the tests was approximately 1 hour, 10 mins., whilst total time flown at boost higher than +18 lb/sq.in. was approximately 2 hours</span>

Thats interesting that they flew for 1hour and 10 minutes with boost at 25lbs and WEP engaged LOLOL they would have cooked the engine.

This again states boost is not WEP engaged boost they are talking about standard pressure.

Question:
So if the standard 18lbs boost Spit got an injection of higher octain fuel what do you think happened to the standard boost of 18lbs??

Knight

JG53Frankyboy
01-23-2007, 03:21 AM
total time is in one run ??
well, its your native language , not mine.

RAF238thKnight
01-23-2007, 03:25 AM
The total time flown at +25 lb/sq.in.

Because this statement is contrary to all of the spit haters out there.

YES full time at 25lbs was 1 hour 10 minutes.

Frankyboy also look at the tables where they are testing both Gears from 0 to 30000 plus adding in the radiator control.

Knight

Brain32
01-23-2007, 03:46 AM
It's TOTAL time, not TOTAL CONTINUOUS http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif
Also on standard SpitfireMkIX with Merlin 66 engine, FUL POWER is required for 18LBS of boost, do you understand that - apparently NOT.

There was no appreciable change in handling of the aircraft at +25 lb/sq.in. as compared to a standard Spitfire IX at +18 lb/sq.in
Interesting ain't it, just shows what a BS joke of a plane is our Spit25 with 16sec turn time http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif Might as well fly a Lerche.

In the end, if you wan't to put the Spit25 against 1943 Luft stuff to replace standard SpitIXc, on your coop/DF server/Campaign or whatever you do because you obviously have some personal agenda - then just do it(Nike TM), don't try to justify it here because nobody will buy it http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

JG53Frankyboy
01-23-2007, 03:50 AM
Originally posted by RAF238thKnight:
The total time flown at +25 lb/sq.in.

Because this statement is contrary to all of the spit haters out there.

YES full time at 25lbs was 1 hour 10 minutes.

.

total does mean here 1hour , 10 minutes in ONE sortie ?? well..............
wouldnt it more logical 1hour , 10 minutes in the whole testseries ?!

had the spit enough fuel for running 1h 10min at 25lb manifold pressure and 3000rpm http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

btw, we should not forgett that the ingame Spits IXs are reaching their speeds with cooler open...................... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
well, anyway, the cooler drag calculation does not fit with all planes in game. not to speak of the cooling effect at all http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif
anyway, in general you loose 20-30km/h with coolers open in game.

ImpStarDuece
01-23-2007, 04:30 AM
Speeds for the LF Mk IXC/E and HF Mk IXE are correct within +/- 1% in the game, according to RAF offical figures.

I think the problem here is Knight misunderstanding how the Merlin operated with regard to 'boost' and a mixup in the terminology.

A standard Merlin 66 could be run at +18 lbs boost, without modification, on standard 100 octane fuel. This boost level was the 5 minute combat rating, giving approximately 1,720 hp.

A modified Merlin 66 could run at +25lbs on 150 octane fuel. This boost rating was also the 5 minute combat rating, FOR SPITFIRES WITH MODIFIED ENGINES, givin approximately 2,000 hp.

When WEP is on in the Spitfire, think of it as the emergency boost cutout. Normally the Merlin 66 was limited to +15 lbs (the half hour climb rating). +18lbs boost, or indeed, +25lbs boost, was only accessible after engaging the emergency boost cutout.

So, in the game: WEP = emergency boost cutout, enableing +18 or +25 lbs boost.

The only gripe I have with the Spitfire IX in the game is that the clipped wing variants are slower than the full wing variants at low altitude. One of the benefits of clipping the wings was 5-7 mph of extra speed at low altitude.

I know IL2C says otherwise, but everytime I test the CW versions of the Mk IX and VIII, they are 5 mph slower than full span versions.

JG53Frankyboy
01-23-2007, 04:36 AM
how much internal fuel has a Spit IX ?

http://www.spitfireperformance.com/jl165.html

says at 25lb boost, 3000rpm, the Merlin66 needs 197imp gallons /hour (thats 895 liters)....

1hour, 10min would mean 229,8 gallons.

Brain32
01-23-2007, 04:48 AM
how much internal fuel has a Spit IX ?
85 gallons

mynameisroland
01-23-2007, 04:52 AM
Originally posted by ImpStarDuece:
Speeds for the LF Mk IXC/E and HF Mk IXE are correct within +/- 1% in the game, according to RAF offical figures.

I think the problem here is Knight misunderstanding how the Merlin operated with regard to 'boost' and a mixup in the terminology.

A standard Merlin 66 could be run at +18 lbs boost, without modification, on standard 100 octane fuel. This boost level was the 5 minute combat rating, giving approximately 1,720 hp.

A modified Merlin 66 could run at +25lbs on 150 octane fuel. This boost rating was also the 5 minute combat rating, FOR SPITFIRES WITH MODIFIED ENGINES, givin approximately 2,000 hp.

When WEP is on in the Spitfire, think of it as the emergency boost cutout. Normally the Merlin 66 was limited to +15 lbs (the half hour climb rating). +18lbs boost, or indeed, +25lbs boost, was only accessible after engaging the emergency boost cutout.

So, in the game: WEP = emergency boost cutout, enableing +18 or +25 lbs boost.

The only gripe I have with the Spitfire IX in the game is that the clipped wing variants are slower than the full wing variants at low altitude. One of the benefits of clipping the wings was 5-7 mph of extra speed at low altitude.

I know IL2C says otherwise, but everytime I test the CW versions of the Mk IX and VIII, they are 5 mph slower than full span versions.

A simple way of explanation would be to fly Spitfire IX c in game with WEP on and 100% throttle and LOOK at the boost pressure! I fly the Tempest often and my eye is glued to the boost guage.

Impstar, the clipped bug only affects the IX model, the Vb model works as it should gaining a slight speed boost for the wing area reduction.

RAF238thKnight
01-23-2007, 05:01 AM
Sorry Guys if you can't handle it the spitfire IXc LF 1943 flew at 18 pounds boost standard PLS provided me with evidence to show this was not the case. By the way not try to justify using it on any map just stating the fact that 18lbs is not 15 and 18 is not 25 lbs no where in the test data does it state that the pilot USED WEP.

Franky good point on the gas consumption, so running the plane at 25lbs boost standard was restricted to a time period of five minute intervals NOT WEP INDUCED...... BRAINS.

Check the pilots notes nothing states that he used WEP to reach 25lbs. Again show me where in the data he starts out at 15lbs or 18lbs then engages WEP or boost to reach 25lbs.

the Octain is what aloud for more pressure not the WEP.

Knight

Brain32
01-23-2007, 05:06 AM
You are unbelievable, and I mean truely unbelievable. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

mynameisroland
01-23-2007, 05:07 AM
Originally posted by RAF238thKnight:
Sorry Guys if you can't handle it the spitfire IXc LF 1943 flew at 18 pounds boost standard PLS provided me with evidence to show this was not the case. By the way not try to justify using it on any map just stating the fact that 18lbs is not 15 and 18 is not 25 lbs no where in the test data does it state that the pilot USED WEP.

Franky good point on the gas consumption, so running the plane at 25lbs boost standard was restricted to a time period of five minute intervals NOT WEP INDUCED...... BRAINS.

Check the pilots notes nothing states that he used WEP to reach 25lbs. Again show me where in the data he starts out at 15lbs or 18lbs then engages WEP or boost to reach 25lbs.

the Octain is what aloud for more pressure not the WEP.

Knight

Knight you are wrong. The boost guage indicates that you need to use WEP to achieve 18lb boost. 18lb boost is the maximum cleared boost for that particular engine - therefore to attain the MAXIMUM boost you need to run at MAXIMUM settings. This is the same in the Tempest you need to use WEP to achieve 9lb boost.

If the Spitfire IX 18lb boost could achieve greater than 18lb boost it would no longer be called 18lb boost - its that simple/

JG53Frankyboy
01-23-2007, 05:21 AM
Originally posted by RAF238thKnight:
..... Again show me where in the data he starts out at 15lbs or 18lbs then engages WEP or boost to reach 25lbs.

............

http://www.spitfireperformance.com/jl165rr.html

"introduction" , point (b) :
the pilot had to push the throttle "trough the gate" to go from 18lb to 25 lb.

why the pilots have to say something like "WEP" , they are saying they are flying with 18lbs/inch or 25lbs/inch , thats at 3000rpm the highest possible output.

something to think about- IFF there would be one more, higher powersetting (the WEP you are looking for in the tests) - why wasnt it tested when they were looking for the bst speeds ??
i would be interested in !

anyway, you are reading your things in these tests - so , enojy it.......... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
others do reading not like you.

RAF238thKnight
01-23-2007, 05:28 AM
Interesting Views I see all points but the point your making on WEP or stating emergency power is not the issue standard operating at full throttle 3000 rpms was 18lbs boost. show me in the flight data that it is 15lbs and boost engaged to 18lbs or 18lbs and boost engaged to 25lbs.
Knight

ImpStarDuece
01-23-2007, 05:29 AM
Originally posted by mynameisroland:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ImpStarDuece:
Speeds for the LF Mk IXC/E and HF Mk IXE are correct within +/- 1% in the game, according to RAF offical figures.

I think the problem here is Knight misunderstanding how the Merlin operated with regard to 'boost' and a mixup in the terminology.

A standard Merlin 66 could be run at +18 lbs boost, without modification, on standard 100 octane fuel. This boost level was the 5 minute combat rating, giving approximately 1,720 hp.

A modified Merlin 66 could run at +25lbs on 150 octane fuel. This boost rating was also the 5 minute combat rating, FOR SPITFIRES WITH MODIFIED ENGINES, givin approximately 2,000 hp.

When WEP is on in the Spitfire, think of it as the emergency boost cutout. Normally the Merlin 66 was limited to +15 lbs (the half hour climb rating). +18lbs boost, or indeed, +25lbs boost, was only accessible after engaging the emergency boost cutout.

So, in the game: WEP = emergency boost cutout, enableing +18 or +25 lbs boost.

The only gripe I have with the Spitfire IX in the game is that the clipped wing variants are slower than the full wing variants at low altitude. One of the benefits of clipping the wings was 5-7 mph of extra speed at low altitude.

I know IL2C says otherwise, but everytime I test the CW versions of the Mk IX and VIII, they are 5 mph slower than full span versions.

A simple way of explanation would be to fly Spitfire IX c in game with WEP on and 100% throttle and LOOK at the boost pressure! I fly the Tempest often and my eye is glued to the boost guage.

Impstar, the clipped bug only affects the IX model, the Vb model works as it should gaining a slight speed boost for the wing area reduction. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Affects the Mk VIII as well.

Just annoying that the model that should be faster at low alt is actually slower. There should also be some small improvements in acceleration, both in a straight line and a dive.

mynameisroland
01-23-2007, 05:33 AM
Originally posted by ImpStarDuece:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by mynameisroland:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ImpStarDuece:
Speeds for the LF Mk IXC/E and HF Mk IXE are correct within +/- 1% in the game, according to RAF offical figures.

I think the problem here is Knight misunderstanding how the Merlin operated with regard to 'boost' and a mixup in the terminology.

A standard Merlin 66 could be run at +18 lbs boost, without modification, on standard 100 octane fuel. This boost level was the 5 minute combat rating, giving approximately 1,720 hp.

A modified Merlin 66 could run at +25lbs on 150 octane fuel. This boost rating was also the 5 minute combat rating, FOR SPITFIRES WITH MODIFIED ENGINES, givin approximately 2,000 hp.

When WEP is on in the Spitfire, think of it as the emergency boost cutout. Normally the Merlin 66 was limited to +15 lbs (the half hour climb rating). +18lbs boost, or indeed, +25lbs boost, was only accessible after engaging the emergency boost cutout.

So, in the game: WEP = emergency boost cutout, enableing +18 or +25 lbs boost.

The only gripe I have with the Spitfire IX in the game is that the clipped wing variants are slower than the full wing variants at low altitude. One of the benefits of clipping the wings was 5-7 mph of extra speed at low altitude.

I know IL2C says otherwise, but everytime I test the CW versions of the Mk IX and VIII, they are 5 mph slower than full span versions.

A simple way of explanation would be to fly Spitfire IX c in game with WEP on and 100% throttle and LOOK at the boost pressure! I fly the Tempest often and my eye is glued to the boost guage.

Impstar, the clipped bug only affects the IX model, the Vb model works as it should gaining a slight speed boost for the wing area reduction. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Affects the Mk VIII as well.

Just annoying that the model that should be faster at low alt is actually slower. There should also be some small improvements in acceleration, both in a straight line and a dive. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Forgot about VIII, at least it gives us considerabel roll improvement. IIRC in older versions of the game the CX VIII/IX actually rolled faster at higher speeds - its curve became ridiculous at 400mph, anyone know if thats still the case?

ImpStarDuece
01-23-2007, 05:34 AM
Originally posted by RAF238thKnight:
Interesting Views I see all points but the information from a spitfire pilot still flying today and creating FMs has the spitfire Merlin 66 at 25lbs. The Merlin 61 Engine is at 18lbs not WEP INDUCED. Show me in the data where it says 15lbs.

Knight

WEP is just game terminology.

Its not actually doing anything other than allow you, in the game, to reach maximum rated power (+18 or +25 lbs boost).

JG53Frankyboy
01-23-2007, 05:35 AM
Originally posted by RAF238thKnight:
Interesting Views I see all points but the information from a spitfire pilot still flying today and creating FMs has the spitfire Merlin 66 at 25lbs. The Merlin 61 Engine is at 18lbs not WEP INDUCED. Show me in the data where it says 15lbs.

Knight

well, and what his manifold pressure is showing if this Spitfirepilot is engaging your searched WEP in his plane, if he is pushing the throttle through the gate ?


here http://www.spitfireperformance.com/ma648.html
they are talking about an "all-out" speedtest - as far i understand "all-out2 is meaning as fast as possible, or not ?
max is 18lbs/square inch at 3000rpm (sure, its no 150 octane Merlin !), that is called "relevant limitation" also.

JG52Karaya-X
01-23-2007, 05:35 AM
OMG this is like talking to a wall, a brick wall...

On an 18lbs boost Spitfire you can only reach that power output by GOING INTO WAR EMERGENCY POWER and as already said: If that wasnt its WEP and it could go even higher then it wouldnt be an 18lbs boost Spit anymore!

XyZspineZyX
01-23-2007, 05:39 AM
Originally posted by RAF238thKnight:
Show me where it states that the pilot in his records engaged WEP on any of the test data sheets??

Quote:
Maximum level speed at sea level 336
Maximum level speed at M.S. gear
full throttle height
384 m.p.h. at 10,800 ft.
Maximum level speed at F.S. gear
full throttle height
407 m.p.h. at 22,000 ft.
Level Speed at 30,000 f.t 395 m.p.h.

<span class="ev_code_RED">Level speeds corrected to 18.0 lb/sq.in. boost</span>

Also show me where the in game spit has auto MS and FS Gear and why these pilots had the ability to change the gear at lower alts??

Knight

Knight, show me in the test card where the pilot states his landing gear were up and locked http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Maximum speed is self-descriptive- the maximum the plane can attain http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif. USe of full throttle plus any boost available would commonly be thought of as "maximum"

By the way- WEP is War Emergency Power- this is a US Army term for full throttle. It's not like another satge on a supercharger or a bottle of Methanol or water injection

A safety wire would prevent the throttle from going fully forward. Breaking the wire with the throttle was engaging "War Emergency Power", which as above, was not engaging any special systems

"WEP" was not used the way we use it, because it would wear the engines out. How a test pilot would test for maximum speed without using full power is alien to me

JG53Frankyboy
01-23-2007, 05:46 AM
Originally posted by RAF238thKnight:
......... show me in the flight data that it is .............18lbs and boost engaged to 25lbs.
Knight

this one http://www.spitfireperformance.com/jl165rr.html ?

RAF238thKnight
01-23-2007, 05:54 AM
Guys they tested at full 100% power which is if you look at the game rpms is 3000 if you notice it goes above 3000 other wise they could not get the accurate charateristics of flight at a standard 18lbs boost.

The data of turn rate and speed at constant would be variable as to when boost or WEP was applied.

No Brick wall here just a matter of pilot knowledge is there anyone in this conversation that has written a flight model or spoken with a Spitfire pilot still flying today. Or is there anyone in this conversation that has flown a spitfire. Other then that your input is null and void so dont add it unless you have knowledge of or direct first or second hand knowledge.

Franky same plane with diferent rated full and engine changes to allow for more boost pressure TWO FLIGHTS ONE is the previous data from the flight before on the same plane at 18lbs the other is on the second with below MODS:

Quote:
<span class="ev_code_RED">To achieve this the following modifications are necessary:-
(a) Strengthening of engine mounting horseshoe internally and patch plate outside. Spitfire Modification No. 971 Drawing 35137 - Sheet 15.
(b) Modification of boost control by fitting stronger spring, new aneroid and adjusting stops to give + 18 lbs. at the gate and + 25 lbs. full open.
(c) Use of special fuel, 160 Grade. (Both lice lead content and M.M.A. type has been used during tests).</span>

Knight

Brain32
01-23-2007, 05:58 AM
ROFLMAO http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

JG52Karaya-X
01-23-2007, 06:01 AM
Originally posted by RAF238thKnight:

No Brick wall here just a matter of pilot knowledge is there anyone in this conversation that has written a flight model or spoken with a Spitfire pilot still flying today. Or is there anyone in this conversation that has flown a spitfire. Other then that your input is null and void so dont add it unless you have knowledge of or direct first or second hand knowledge.

So do you fit any of your self-selected criteria?

I for myself have written flight models, I have talked to Bf109 pilots, I havent flown Spitfires or Bf109s but do fly motor-planes. What is your glamerous record?

JG53Frankyboy
01-23-2007, 06:03 AM
at least i had an enjoyable noon http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

good luck Knight !

JG52Karaya-X
01-23-2007, 06:33 AM
Altitude, + 18 lbs. Boost, + 25 lbs. Boost

0 feet (0 meters)
330mph (530km/h) on 18lbs, 354mph (569km/h) on 25lbs

3,200 feet (975 meters)
343mph (552km/h) on 18lbs, 367mph (590km/h) on 25lbs

8,000 feet (2440 meters)
364mph (585km/h) on 18lbs, 367mph (590km/h) on 25lbs

10,000 feet (3050 meters)
367mph (590km/h) on 18lbs, 377mph (606km/h) on 25lbs

14,400 feet (4400 meters
373mph (600km/h) on 18lbs, 397mph (640km/h) on 25lbs

20,000 feet (6100 meters)
397mph (640km/h) on 18lbs, 397mph (640km/h) on 25lbs

25,000 feet (7600 meters)
394mph (634km/h) on 18lbs, 394mph (634km/h) on 25lbs


It will be seen that the maximum increase in speed is 24 miles per hour obtained at ground level, and at 3,200 ft. and 14,400 ft. the full throttle heights in M.S. and F.S. gear respectively. These gains gradually diminish with increase of altitude, until, at the full throttle heights for + 18 lbs. boost they entirely disappear.

These speed tests of course were carried out at full power of their respective boost pressure, if you fail to grasp that then you cannot be helped. The speed curve for the 25lbs boost SpitIX is modelled within +-1 or 2 % within FB.

RAF238thKnight
01-23-2007, 06:33 AM
Well I forgot I was at the ZOO Sorry for the inconvience of conversation and I dont have but 20 minutes in a Cessna, but have written a FM for a hurricane the spitfire pilot Developes flight models for FS 2004 and others plane he has flown is a p51 not sure which model though.

All I see is Full power at 18lbs anything else you might have I dont see the wall or boosted pressure. I have seen take at 12lbs then to 18lbs but not where WEP or emergency power is engaged or where the Boost as it is NoN American as some one has pointed out.

I for one was looking at the lbs in the report differently if there is anyone that can show me any other docs stating the wall was 15lbs and then pushed to 18lbs in a merlin 66 using WEP or Boost Or over the gate as someone stated before please post or links thanks for the time this morn to point out what I think is a flaw.

Knight

JG52Karaya-X
01-23-2007, 06:42 AM
Well what the heck do you expect when turning up with ingame tests which a) were carried out at completely random test conditions and b) were so poorly carried out that they deviate a good 50+ km/h with other people doing the same test at the same conditions and then after proven wrong you still go on to ignore everybody else showing an arrogance which cannot be found that easily elsewhere on these boards.

This thread was dead right when it started

JG53Frankyboy
01-23-2007, 06:44 AM
so, propably you dont want see this

http://www.spitfireperformance.com/spitfire-VIII.html

the 12lb at 2850rpm, and the 18lb at 3000rpm............

this side is sometimes frustrating - they call a Spit VIII with MErlin 66 a F. Mk.VIII.
so , the 12lb and 18lb chart ist not reliable - i dont know wich engine exactly the JF-934 was tested with http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

mynameisroland
01-23-2007, 06:44 AM
Originally posted by RAF238thKnight:
Well I forgot I was at the ZOO Sorry for the inconvience of conversation and I dont have but 20 minutes in a Cessna, but have written a FM for a hurricane the spitfire pilot Developes flight models for FS 2004 and others plane he has flown is a p51 not sure which model though.

All I see is Full power at 18lbs anything else you might have I dont see the wall or boosted pressure. I have seen take at 12lbs then to 18lbs but not where WEP or emergency power is engaged or where the Boost as it is NoN American as some one has pointed out.

I for one was looking at the lbs in the report differently if there is anyone that can show me any other docs stating the wall was 15lbs and then pushed to 18lbs in a merlin 66 using WEP or Boost Or over the gate as someone stated before please post or links thanks for the time this morn to point out what I think is a flaw.

Knight

So did your Hurricane, that you wrote the FM for, develop Full power and boost at maximum achievable throttle in FS2004 ? Or did it develop it at 80% ?

JG52Karaya-X
01-23-2007, 06:49 AM
Combat Power Rating (= full power plus WEP, the full show)

ICAN Altitude (Feet)
S.L.

R.P.M.
3000

Boost (lbs./sq.in.)
+18 (m)

Maximum speed (mph)
330 (this is our 530km/h from above)

Rate of Climb (ft/minute)
4600

Brain32
01-23-2007, 07:01 AM
@Knight
http://www.zenoswarbirdvideos.com/Spitfire9_Manual.html
Download the manual, look under part III - Operating Data
You will find(among other settings):
COMBAT 5MIN. LIMIT: 3000RPM, 18lbs BOOST...

Is real Spitfire IX manual a good authority for you? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

XyZspineZyX
01-23-2007, 07:06 AM
Originally posted by RAF238thKnight:
Guys they tested at full 100% power which is if you look at the game rpms is 3000 if you notice it goes above 3000 other wise they could not get the accurate charateristics of flight at a standard 18lbs boost.

The data of turn rate and speed at constant would be variable as to when boost or WEP was applied.

No Brick wall here just a matter of pilot knowledge is there anyone in this conversation that has written a flight model or spoken with a Spitfire pilot still flying today. Or is there anyone in this conversation that has flown a spitfire. Other then that your input is null and void so dont add it unless you have knowledge of or direct first or second hand knowledge.

Franky same plane with diferent rated full and engine changes to allow for more boost pressure TWO FLIGHTS ONE is the previous data from the flight before on the same plane at 18lbs the other is on the second with below MODS:

Quote:
<span class="ev_code_RED">To achieve this the following modifications are necessary:-
(a) Strengthening of engine mounting horseshoe internally and patch plate outside. Spitfire Modification No. 971 Drawing 35137 - Sheet 15.
(b) Modification of boost control by fitting stronger spring, new aneroid and adjusting stops to give + 18 lbs. at the gate and + 25 lbs. full open.
(c) Use of special fuel, 160 Grade. (Both lice lead content and M.M.A. type has been used during tests).</span>

Knight

I see. I haven't flown a Spit or talked to the pilot, so I couldn't possibly know a ******* thing about airplanes

Good day sir

RAF238thKnight
01-23-2007, 01:52 PM
Brains good Post Proves my point what ENGINE TYPES:

61-63

We are talking about the 66 where is the data on that engine ADVANCEMENT??

Knight

JG52Karaya-X
01-23-2007, 02:05 PM
Originally posted by RAF238thKnight:
Brains good Post Proves my point what ENGINE TYPES:

61-63

We are talking about the 66 where is the data on that engine ADVANCEMENT??

Sorry but do you need glasses? Shall I read out a bit from the manual?

Engine Data: Merlins 61, 63, 66, 70 and 266

Max. Takeoff to 1000ft

RPM: 3000
Boost: +18 (+12 on the 61 and 63)
Coolant temp.: 135?C

Combat 5min Limit

RPM: 3000
Boost: +18 (+15 on the 61 and 63)
Coolant temp.: 135?C

Did you just miss that or did you ignore it on purpose. The +18 rating is for the 66 and 70 engines, the +12 and +15 are for the 61 and 63 as stated.

Brain32
01-23-2007, 04:54 PM
With some digging I've found out what is this all about LOL. Please Knight don't use this forum as justfication method for your agenda, it's really not nice http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif
When I just think I actually tested it, and digged a bit to find a Spit9 manual and then I realized what's the main "problem" http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

Like I said m8, if you wan't do something with your game then just do it, and explain why you did it to those concerned.
I'm over and out of this thread...

=S=!

RAF238thKnight
01-23-2007, 05:19 PM
Karaya,

Quote:

Max. Takeoff to 1000ft

RPM: 3000
Boost: +18 (+12 on the 61 and 63) <span class="ev_code_RED">What is the standard before the gate or full throttle</span>
Coolant temp.: 135?C

Again Brains just digging for info before a change is made so do me a favor you backed off the conversation and thats fine with me.

On the 61-63 what is gate Lbs 9 or 12 so your saying that over the gate we get 15 and 18 am I understanding your point of view??

So what is full throttle minus WEP or boost as you say what does the BOOST GUAGE READ 9, 12, 15??

This guess is where the delema is or for my understanding of when is it full throttle and then boost applied??

Knight

JG53Frankyboy
01-23-2007, 07:09 PM
the throttle lever is gated at the climbing boost position. to reach combat boost setting you have to push the throttle through the gate -there is NO additional "WEP" button.
this full throttle position (already through the gate) is your ,now for pages, searched "WEP" activation..............
you call it "WEP", the manual call it "combat, 5min limit".

Merlin 61,63
max. takeoff to 1000ft = 12lbs/sq.in. at 3000rpm
climbing boost = 12lbs/sq.in. at 2850rpm
combat, 5min limit = 15lbs/sq.in. at 3000rpm

Merlin 66
max. takeoff to 1000ft = 18lbs/sq.in. at 3000rpm
climbing boost = 12lbs/sq.in. at 2850rpm
combat, 5min limit = 18lbs/sq.in. at 3000rpm


all that can be found in the given manual...............................

XyZspineZyX
01-23-2007, 08:20 PM
this goes against my very moral fiber and I'm sure I'll regret it

<span class="ev_code_YELLOW">Franky is re-iterating a point made earlier (by me actually)- Full throttle **IS WEP**. Pushing the throttle ALL THE WAY forward is WEP. It doesn't 'activate' a special system, no methanol tanks, no water injection, no high/low blower selection, it is simply enabling you to move the throttle all the way forward. In many planes "WEP" is a misnomer. It is a US Army term for breaking the safety wire that prevents full throttle. It is also sometimes called "Full Military Power". When the throttle is opened all the way, you are using "WEP" but it's still just throttle position. the "WEP" note is given to alert you to the use of full power, not to alert you that extra 'boost' is made from an ancilliary system that kicks in due to throttle position</span>

WWMaxGunz
01-23-2007, 11:13 PM
Originally posted by Brain32:
It's TOTAL time, not TOTAL CONTINUOUS http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif
Also on standard SpitfireMkIX with Merlin 66 engine, FUL POWER is required for 18LBS of boost, do you understand that - apparently NOT.

Good point!

I also wee him pushing about no mention of WEP. Yeah, he didn't hit W key I suppose?
Was there some WEP control on Spitfires? I see none. Maybe in order for the pilot to
mention specifically WEP there would have to be a WEP control? But they do tell of a
wire across the high end of the throttle.... Gasp! Could it be that the game engine
only has one method of function and the plane models are adapted to it?


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> There was no appreciable change in handling of the aircraft at +25 lb/sq.in. as compared to a standard Spitfire IX at +18 lb/sq.in
Interesting ain't it, just shows what a BS joke of a plane is our Spit25 with 16sec turn time http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif Might as well fly a Lerche. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Might be true if you believe that handling and performance are the same meaning.

High boost Spitfires did exist and were used. Didn't they chase V-1's? The later models
were monstrous. But compare top speed of that Spit to late model FW or 109K-4 because
speed is the most important single trait at least to a good many WWII fighter pilots.

WWMaxGunz
01-23-2007, 11:27 PM
Originally posted by JG52Karaya-X:
OMG this is like talking to a wall, a brick wall...

I am thinking this is like Tagert without the insults.

WWMaxGunz
01-23-2007, 11:40 PM
Originally posted by RAF238thKnight:
Max. Takeoff to 1000ft

RPM: 3000
Boost: +18 (+12 on the 61 and 63) <span class="ev_code_RED">What is the standard before the gate or full throttle</span>


I think you need to be doing some backing up on your little red addition there.
Where in the documents does it say that?

Perhaps while you are there, you can find the location of the WEP control you keep saying
they don't say about? You know, the one that gives the extra-extra on top of full speed?

WWMaxGunz
01-23-2007, 11:46 PM
Originally posted by BBB462cid:
this goes against my very moral fiber and I'm sure I'll regret it

<span class="ev_code_YELLOW">Franky is re-iterating a point made earlier (by me actually)- Full throttle **IS WEP**. Pushing the throttle ALL THE WAY forward is WEP. It doesn't 'activate' a special system, no methanol tanks, no water injection, no high/low blower selection, it is simply enabling you to move the throttle all the way forward. In many planes "WEP" is a misnomer. It is a US Army term for breaking the safety wire that prevents full throttle. It is also sometimes called "Full Military Power". When the throttle is opened all the way, you are using "WEP" but it's still just throttle position. the "WEP" note is given to alert you to the use of full power, not to alert you that extra 'boost' is made from an ancilliary system that kicks in due to throttle position</span>

I am a bit mystified. I thought that the W key only makes a difference on planes that had
an extra boost system and for all others there is 110% where the wire is at 100%. Have I
been running around at less than maximum in so many planes?

JG53Frankyboy
01-24-2007, 03:54 AM
to repeat one of my posts (from page 2)

"propably it would have been better if the ingame Spitfires would have the 110% throttle system (110% would mean full boost) than the 100% + WEP button...................
but actually also this 110% system has its flaws - just as an example to fly a Bf109 with 103%, MW50 enabled, cooler open for 26minutes (than the fluid is emtpy) without any engine damage is , lest say, silly
seeing this, the 100% + WEP is not bad.......
100% is the lever till the "gate", hitting the W button means pushing the throttle trough the gate (not all game joysticks have a barrier at 100% )

a Bf109 would so have:
100% = Kampf-/Steigleistung
100% + WEP = Start-/Notleistung
100% + WEP + enabled MW50 system (only doable without WEP engaged, otherweise engine damage !) = Sondernotleistung"

to summ it up, this is a game.
espacially the CEM is not modelled at the same standarts for all planes................

RAF238thKnight
01-24-2007, 04:00 AM
Spitfire piston engines the boost capsule was at the GATE not a WEP button understood that when you first posted it BBB the question I have is what was the GATE lbs before release also was it 100% or 90% before the boost?? So in game simulation has the Merlin 66 set at 12lbs pre-gate which as the gentlemen stated actually is not 100% throttle, actual 100% throttle is when the boost capsule is released. When in game we hit the WEP which is inaccurate FM according to a man that worked on piston engined spitfires in the RAF.

Again what is the gate throttle setting on the Spitfire LF IXc was it 100% at the gate or less 95% or 80% if you say that 100% full throttle is through the gate then what should that percentage read in game before the boost or throttle is pushed through the gate??

Which is were we are in disagreement I was told full throttle is 100% at the GATE which should be 18lbs. Listed in the manual for the to specific types are 12 and 15 (Merlin 61-63). At that point it does not say 66 even though the manual sets the standard for all types.

What I am saying is the gate is full throttle without the boost capsule being released and if I am incorrect then PLEASE give me the data so that we can end this thread. I am not in England so I cant call Duxford LOL.

Knight

JG53Frankyboy
01-24-2007, 04:26 AM
if you weant fly exactly after the book, speak manual, buy a real Spitfire plane.
try to keep the "ingame" terms and the "manual" terms a little bit seperated !

in GAME:
100% in game means "throttle at the gate" in the manual.
100% + W (button) means "pushed trough the gate"

EDIT:
and i forgott to ad ,some years ago (oh yes, im much to long in this community i have more and more the feeling), Oleg said here that we should NOT compare the power/speeds given at 100% (in game) settings (if there are more power setting avaialble, like 110% and/or W button) with real/manual given power/speeds at Steig-&Kampfleistung/Military power/at the gate - these outputs would be to slow! gameengine related.............
if you want test things, you should only look after the max power outcomes.

so looking at test charts what speeds a Spitfire LF.MkIXc at 12lb/in.sq. at 2850rpm (at the gate) and test this with 100% throttle in game (without activated W!) will most propably not match !
also that does not work in a Bf109F with Steig-/Kampfleistung charts and ingame 100% throttle.............

whiteladder
01-24-2007, 04:36 AM
Not sure why this is not clear Knight

http://img329.imageshack.us/img329/4629/spit26lc.jpg


It seem quite clear from that above picture that it is saying at the gate 12lb and 18lb full throttle ( which I`m reading as to its maximum postion)

This seem to translate in game to 100% throttle for 12lb which is maximum climb rating and 100% throttle + WEP for maximum combat power rating (which represents "through the 12lb gate" in the real aircraft)

If you are saying that 18lb should be at the gate and pushing through this would give and even higher boost rating I think you need to provide some contempory evidence that this is the case.

Sorry I`m with every one else on this one.

RAF238thKnight
01-24-2007, 04:51 AM
Great find Ladder must have missed it, however this is the other point I made Ladder and maybe you can find me the answer.

What was the boost guage reading at the GATE when 150 octane fuel was used??

The data you provided again is talking about a Spitfire that was using 100 octane fuel.

Was their any increase in the boost guage reading??

Again the Data you provide goes back to 100 octane fuel when the spit manual was printed because it was the standard.

Now in Feb. 1944 150 octane fuel was being used.

So is that the 25lb spit we have now and was its gate still reading 12lbs??

Knight

whiteladder
01-24-2007, 05:26 AM
Common sense would say that it wasn`t still 12lb at the gate, and from the link that Gunrunner posted at the Warbirdsofprey website and what BBB462cid post earlier in this thread the test report seem to say gated at 18lb.

INTRODUCTION.
With the object of improving the performance of the Spitfire IX at low altitudes, the permissible boost pressure of a Merlin 66 has been increased for experimental purposes to 25 lbs. per square inch.

To achieve this the following modifications are necessary:-



(a) Strengthening of engine mounting horseshoe internally and patch plate outside. Spitfire Modification No. 971 Drawing 35137 - Sheet 15.
(b) <span class="ev_code_RED"> Modification of boost control by fitting stronger spring, new aneroid and adjusting stops to give + 18 lbs. at the gate and + 25 lbs. full open. </span>
(c) Use of special fuel, 160 Grade. (Both lice lead content and M.M.A. type has been used during tests).


In addition the follow seem to suggest the gated postion was 18LB

" The existing throttle quadrant is thought to be unsatisfactory in that the movement allowed between the closed position and the +18lbs boost position is to small and <span class="ev_code_RED">further the arrangements for gaiting the throttle to 18 lbs boost is unsatisfactory.</span> A request has been made for an improved quadrant to be fitted so as to give the pilot a more sensitive control of his engine. "

RAF238thKnight
01-24-2007, 04:07 PM
Thank you sir only thing I was trying to point out but I was wrong with the standard 66 Merlin.

Thanks again Ladder.

Knight

JudgeMingus
09-23-2007, 07:34 PM
Also note that simply putting higher octane fuel in the tank does not instantly increase the boost the engine runs at.
It just increases the maximum boost the engine type can be made to run without damage due to detonation ('knocking').
Rated maximum boost for an engine configured a certain way is still the most boost you will get.

Running at the newly achievable boost settings then requires adjustments to the engine (as highlighted in whiteladder's post).

Zoom2136
09-28-2007, 08:01 AM
Originally posted by Kwiatos:

Spitfires MK IX C,E and MK VIII which all have the same performance in speed and climb.

In FB different between Spitfire MK IX C and E is only in arnament - they have the same performance

WOW in game the MK IXc and MK VIII DON'T climb nearly as good as the MK IXe...

They are also 10kph slower on the deck (based on speed bar readout)... This is 100% power with WEP and trimed out for level flight...

But what do I know... I only logged a few 1000's hours in Spits (in game) over the last few years....