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View Full Version : Why 4.08m Clean play, no mods...



McHilt
03-08-2009, 05:07 AM
The last time I played IL-2 1946 I had a whole bunch of mods installed and at first I loved it a lot. However the more I played the more often I came to the conclusion it was all a wicked thing to me, no more original IL-2 feeling. A short time later I would ditch the complete sim, including all features installed... The mods had killed it for me!

Of course after half a year I started to miss the flying and I reinstalled the sim and I can't emphasize how fresh it looked at first launch. I hadn't had that feeling for at least one and a half year.
And I tell you nothing beats the feel of the original IL-2 experience. Yeah I know the engine sounds are not 'right', the guns do not sound 'proper', no 6 DOF and so on, hell... the original IL-2 feel is something special (in fact that's the reason I started to play this sim back in 2004) and from now on I'm going to play straight from the box + 4.08m... no more mods to me. It's a delight and honour to me to fly this sim clean as it was meant to be by Oleg and crew. Despite all the hard work done by modders I hope many more will do this game justice again.

trumper
03-08-2009, 05:16 AM
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gifBlimey,have the mods been out a year and a half already,how time flies.
It is a personal taste of course.To be honest i have the opposite feeling,i was ready to ditch f/b BUT the mods have breathed new life into the sim.
I would guess you would need to pick and choose the mods you want carefully and not to mention some of them may have been improved on in the year and a half since you last flew.
Maybe you got "burnt out" and just needed a change and starting again from a long break may make you feel this way. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

rnzoli
03-08-2009, 06:26 AM
Interesting, because I often find myself playing on the few clean 4.08 servers, such as Na Kane Pono cooperative server, http://nkp.mohaces.com/ Come there if you want to have a good time on 4.08 version, flying in dynamic campaigns etc.

The mods are not all bad, but need to be selected. And as many pointed out, lots of things are not better, but just different, so more interesting for them. The key mods for me are limited to 6DOF and new/updated maps. With some reservation, also new planes. The rest is problematic, because of my old PC can't handle them. Also I don't have enough time to keep up with all the internal changes with the mods, so sometimes it's just a good feeling to "return home" to the simple 4.08 variant http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

joeap
03-08-2009, 10:37 AM
*Sigh* I really am the last one then...

rnzoli
03-08-2009, 12:57 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Maybe you feel like the last to ever try a mod, but I tell you, I fly a lot of v4.08 still. I was dragged into using a mod pack because my favourite server installed one and kept CRT=2 on. Moreover, the mod pack developer is one of the nicest guy on Earth (trumper and I know him, we both fly his HSFX pack), he is totally history-oriented, wants to keep fair play, organizes very interesting SEOW campaigns on the new maps, and provides a great support for the users. You don't hear too much about this, because he had been harrassed by certain guys at AAA, so he practically had to go underground, some stuff done to him qualified for criminal activities - just because he was 6 months ahead of AAA thinking about a CRT=2 compliant pack...

danjama
03-08-2009, 01:12 PM
I dont have any mods and i dont plan on installing any.

buddye1
03-08-2009, 01:23 PM
It is very cool to have our personal options for setting up our game.

Everyone can have what they want.

waffen-79
03-08-2009, 01:44 PM
Hi guys

I'll be honest with you, I use the mods, and I'm also a regular in mod-friendly servers

BUT

When ever I'm online I use the unmodded, fresh 4.08m ORIGINAL installation

I know some of the modders and I know the quality of the mods, but I don't trust the regular flyer that COULD hack a FM or DM or whatnot


So, when I use the mods ? you may ask...

To fly planes that I can use only thru mods, planes that I love and admire, like the Me-210, 410 or the Allied Heavies

I would love to see one day the Ta-154 and the Whirlwind

I also use the modded installation to REPLAY tracks, that's right, I record my kills and pretend to have a logbook, I use the German system to add records to my logbook: confirmed, assistance and probables

If I got killed, I keep the track, but the actions don't go to my logbook

See, I have friends and brothers that like all these WW2 aerial combat stuff, but are not simmers or don't have the game, so I show off some of my tracks with all the glory of the mods

I also like to show off my girlfriend how good ACE I am, show her she's always in my cockpit (even thou when I'm recording I don't see the pic cause I fly vanila version)

I hope I could explain myself well, as english is not my native language

regards

Copperhead311th
03-08-2009, 04:41 PM
Originally posted by McHilt:
The last time I played IL-2 1946 I had a whole bunch of mods installed and at first I loved it a lot. However the more I played the more often I came to the conclusion it was all a wicked thing to me, no more original IL-2 feeling. A short time later I would ditch the complete sim, including all features installed... The mods had killed it for me!

Of course after half a year I started to miss the flying and I reinstalled the sim and I can't emphasize how fresh it looked at first launch. I hadn't had that feeling for at least one and a half year.
And I tell you nothing beats the feel of the original IL-2 experience. Yeah I know the engine sounds are not 'right', the guns do not sound 'proper', no 6 DOF and so on, hell... the original IL-2 feel is something special (in fact that's the reason I started to play this sim back in 2004) and from now on I'm going to play straight from the box + 4.08m... no more mods to me. It's a delight and honour to me to fly this sim clean as it was meant to be by Oleg and crew. Despite all the hard work done by modders I hope many more will do this game justice again.

++++++++ 10
well said. IF ONLY MORE PPL WOULD WISE UP. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

Copperhead311th
03-08-2009, 04:43 PM
Originally posted by joeap:
*Sigh* I really am the last one then...

Nope i'm with you. clean 4.08 & 4.09B installs only for me ty.

WTE_Galway
03-08-2009, 04:45 PM
use them or not its personal choice

Persoanlly for me, the fact that IL2 was unmodded and had no massive collection of antartica maps and "flyable B52 with me110 cockpit" style downloads way back when it first came out is what actually got me back into flight simming - i had becoming very jaded with the MS products and the million downloads online you had to fight through to find one or two gems - hence mods have no personal appeal at all.

But other people love them .. and good luck to them, people should be able to play the game the way they want

Copperhead311th
03-08-2009, 04:45 PM
Originally posted by danjama:
I dont have any mods and i dont plan on installing any.

My opinion of you is now much improved.

Freiwillige
03-08-2009, 10:26 PM
You guys are crying because nobody wants to read by candle light anymore because some fool invented he lightbulb! To each there own, personally im a fan of progress. And as long as the mods remain loyal to history, im down. Downloading that is!

jamesblonde1979
03-08-2009, 11:15 PM
Well, I wont go back to the world of cartoon textures, sewing machine engines, marbles dropped on a tile floor guns, AI pilots caught in a perpetual barrel roll and flak that looks pretty darn average... No thank you.

Mods have just addressed the issues that the developers didn't have time or resources to perfect, they don't detract from the game experience in any way at all. I am sure that if they had the chande 1C would have included many of the mods we have today.

P.FunkAdelic
03-08-2009, 11:31 PM
Originally posted by Copperhead311th:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by danjama:
I dont have any mods and i dont plan on installing any.

My opinion of you is now much improved. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
This whole elitist sub-conversation makes me think of that scene in High Fidelity... where they act like snobs about music around all the other amateur collectors.

Seriously, I don't care if anyone other than me plays a mod, I just can't stand the vanilla superiority.

Congratulations, you are a better human being because you respect the integrity of a computer game.

You can argue the merits of mod use ad nauseum but the bit about acting like those that don't are better people... ugh. Its attitudes like that have driven me from some gaming communities.

Stiletto-
03-08-2009, 11:48 PM
God this is going to get nasty and locked soon.. But I must say.. Why am I using a videocard with 1 gig of vram when the cockpits textures in the game are 256x256? I didn't update my computer to be stuck in 2003, and no.. This is not the game I play most anymore, so you can't say why did you bother upgrading at all?

Even more so, I am a stickler for realism, I play sims and I want them to be realistic as possible, when it comes to certain aircraft details and especially engine sounds.. This is where Oleg has missed his mark by a wide enough margin that puts a signifigant blemish on the game.

I am a Graphic Designer, but my heart has always been with texture and art work for computers games. I have come to the realization that I will probably never get paid to work on a piece of software for a game studio so I "mod" as a hobby. It is my art form. I hope you think of this and people like me before you wish that the mods and add-ons for this game never existed.

na85
03-09-2009, 01:28 AM
In b4 the lock.

First things first: To each his or her own.

My opinion of the mods:

They need a working VERSION CONTROL. I tried to develop one but I had to start from scratch once FBDj came out (also my concept was flawed fundamentally as I discovered during testing).

If there could be some kind of version control so that servers can enforce a specific list of mods (CheckRunTime does not work) then I would be happy.

JG52Uther
03-09-2009, 02:57 AM
Deja vu? Dec 2007 all over again. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

Skoshi Tiger
03-09-2009, 03:07 AM
I don't fly with any mods because I'm too lazy to download and install them.

I think I tried too at one time but it was a multi part download and I had a slow internet connection and things kept on getting corrupted.

I don't mind other people using the mods and have never felt hard done by when flying on mod-friendly servers (as long as there are standard planes to fly!)

A people think apathy is a vice!

joeap
03-09-2009, 03:22 AM
Originally posted by P.FunkAdelic:
This whole elitist sub-conversation makes me think of that scene in High Fidelity... where they act like snobs about music around all the other amateur collectors.

Seriously, I don't care if anyone other than me plays a mod, I just can't stand the vanilla superiority.

Congratulations, you are a better human being because you respect the integrity of a computer game.

You can argue the merits of mod use ad nauseum but the bit about acting like those that don't are better people... ugh. Its attitudes like that have driven me from some gaming communities.

Pot meet kettle. when this thing first came up...it was the anti-mods who were screaming bloody murder the loudest (and rudest for the most part) who almost to a person switched over queitly to using mods.

Then those of us like myself (and I was real quiet about it at the start) with legitimate concerns and criticisms (including my bud Leitmotiv, now gone in virtual netherland, and an avid mod user) were shouted down as it is now the pro-mod crew who are lording it over, with the support of the moderators here. Like this post: moderator bias? (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/23110283/m/3561044937?r=3691018937#3691018937) look at the response to Dux...threatening a lock for someone stating his opinion which goes against the dominant current here is not on, in my respectful opinion. Kind regards.

Feathered_IV
03-09-2009, 03:31 AM
As always with this sim, you get as much out of it as you put in. It's the same with the mods.

Bearcat99
03-09-2009, 06:09 AM
Originally posted by Copperhead311th:

well said. IF ONLY MORE PPL WOULD WISE UP. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

That insinuates that people who dont feel the sanme way you do are somehow foolish... or at worse suffering from some character flaw... which of course is absurd.


As always with this sim, you get as much out of it as you put in. It's the same with the mods.


Precisely


So this debate is moot... McHilt.. you prefer no mods after installing a goo gob of em, good I'm happy for you... I am glad that you can still enjoy the sim.

The rest of you.. move along there is nothing more to see here because with some of the comment sin here this thread will only go south...

Bearcat99
03-09-2009, 06:37 AM
At the request of a poster in this thread it was reopened.. if you guys want it to stay that way then I suggest some prone to foot in mouth disease either stay away from the thread or put their brains in gear before they put their mouths in motion.

ffb
03-09-2009, 07:03 AM
I think those involved in the map-making have learned a lot.
We all used to be told that making maps was too difficult for all but the select few...and the new maps with 4.09b were hailed as a breakthrough...which they were....but the AAA map makers have far surpassed anything map-wise to come from the makers and are continuing to do so.

rnzoli
03-09-2009, 09:22 AM
Originally posted by Feathered_IV:
As always with this sim, you get as much out of it as you put in. It's the same with the mods.
So true! Our stance on the mods seems to depend on how much "unfulfilled" desires we had with the original version.

If you were able to take out from the vanilla version what you wanted, like absolutely level online play, game stability and feature consistency, mods will only bother you.

If you were looking for something else, such as your ability to create your own content, or remove "the bar", or solve a specific PITA with offline play, mods have meant opening a new era.

If possible, let's try to keep this thread sane. There is already a successful long-life thread on why the some people use the mod. I don't think it hurts anyone to have another thread supporting the people, who actually don't want the mods for some reason.

Hookecho
03-09-2009, 10:26 AM
"umm more for us then"

Having said that, if thats what makes the game enjoyable for you, then great. Its not about what I want, or how I find fun and enjoyment in the wonderful game, its about what you are comfortable with in your own gaming experience.

Personally I find the mods have opened up a game that to me was stale and very lacking. But thats just me. Being able to fly a B17 in anger, or even at all, and plan long range missions is part of the "new" fun for me. I am a member of the 352nd VFG, and yesterday we were testing Croydon airbase on our up comming 1940 Cross Channel Map, and wow, is it really fun to fly over England and pop the map open and see real English towns and cites on the map and not have to pretend that some town on the map written in Russian is actually the real town. Flying along the Dover coast with the Chain Home radar masts there is just too cool looking. For some of us this is why we "partake" in the mods. To add stuff that should have been there (in our minds) in the 1st place.

But to each his own. As long as you enjoy the game, in whatever rendition, is all that counts.

Blue Skys!

Ba5tard5word
03-09-2009, 11:10 AM
I tried the mods a few months ago, but...

a) I didn't like the noise bullets or AA would make when they hit me...always the same loud "PLIK PLAK PLOK" noise, no matter where I got hit or by what. It just made the modded game feel unpolished.

b) The new maps were nice but they seemed to make the game run rather choppily when I played them. Do the mods do this to everyone or was it because I had an 8600GT card at the time? I have a GTX 260 now.

willyvic
03-09-2009, 12:13 PM
Haven't tried the mods. I still enjoy the vanilla install just fine.

Reason: personal choice.

WV

Swivet
03-09-2009, 12:27 PM
I think everything needs to be taken in moderation..Less is more sometimes. I love the new sounds and maps. Maybe they do run choppy on some of our machines, but so far so good here. And i got an old rig compared to most..You start adding everything that's released from aaa and your bound to get "mod-disease"....It's all personal taste as stated above, nobody can bash either way. It's all good, modded or not. It's an old sim and it still keeps us entertained, and that's pretty cool regardless.

R_Target
03-09-2009, 02:01 PM
http://i40.tinypic.com/b8626e.jpg

K_Freddie
03-09-2009, 02:03 PM
I haven't used any mods, although I'd imagine some areas have been improved where Oleg hasn't had the time, but the most important factor for me is knowing that, for online play, we all stand on even ground - Seperating the men from the baby's. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

With modding this area gets very foggy, and there are no guarantees.

But offline, I should try it.... sometime.
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

Edt: I just hope that Oleg makes BOB:SOW very difficult to 'crack', so that we can at least get a few years play out of it.

P.FunkAdelic
03-09-2009, 02:05 PM
Originally posted by joeap:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by P.FunkAdelic:
This whole elitist sub-conversation makes me think of that scene in High Fidelity... where they act like snobs about music around all the other amateur collectors.

Seriously, I don't care if anyone other than me plays a mod, I just can't stand the vanilla superiority.

Congratulations, you are a better human being because you respect the integrity of a computer game.

You can argue the merits of mod use ad nauseum but the bit about acting like those that don't are better people... ugh. Its attitudes like that have driven me from some gaming communities.

Pot meet kettle. when this thing first came up...it was the anti-mods who were screaming bloody murder the loudest (and rudest for the most part) who almost to a person switched over queitly to using mods.

Then those of us like myself (and I was real quiet about it at the start) with legitimate concerns and criticisms (including my bud Leitmotiv, now gone in virtual netherland, and an avid mod user) were shouted down as it is now the pro-mod crew who are lording it over, with the support of the moderators here. Like this post: moderator bias? (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/23110283/m/3561044937?r=3691018937#3691018937) look at the response to Dux...threatening a lock for someone stating his opinion which goes against the dominant current here is not on, in my respectful opinion. Kind regards. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Its not the fact that anti-mod users have concerns, its the arrogant self congratulatory attitude that comes with it.

That is my only complaint. Feel free to avoid mods, and I'm happy to argue the dangers of them. It is only that particular attitude which in effect insults all mod users.

JG52Uther
03-09-2009, 02:05 PM
Sorry to disappoint you Freddie,but the mods have been around for many years in some quarters.
Each to their own though!

K_Freddie
03-09-2009, 02:08 PM
I'm well aware of that... but as you say. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Burckhardt
03-09-2009, 02:19 PM
Edt: I just hope that Oleg makes BOB:SOW very difficult to 'crack', so that we can at least get a few years play out of it.

Oleg has stated he is making SOW so it can be modded.(not the physics)

I enjoy the UI 1.1 as well as the vanilla game. I appreciate anyone who makes these sims as well as the reputable modders.

McHilt
03-09-2009, 02:35 PM
Holy crap... lots of negativeness about this subject. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif
Not what I expected and evenso not what I had hoped for either. I just wanted to state that I'm very happy to still fly this sim with the same feel that came with my first fresh encounter in 2004.
That's all, no offense mates... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Fly happy people, with or without mods.

crucislancer
03-09-2009, 03:14 PM
Originally posted by McHilt:
Holy crap... lots of negativeness about this subject. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif
Not what I expected and evenso not what I had hoped for either. I just wanted to state that I'm very happy to still fly this sim with the same feel that came with my first fresh encounter in 2004.
That's all, no offense mates... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Fly happy people, with or without mods.

+1

K_Freddie
03-09-2009, 03:23 PM
Not so much -ves than concerns over cheating wih online play, which is a known fact.

Mods do enhance a game in certain aspects, and I'm sure the so called '-ves' are aware of this.

Not trying to sound like those rediculous idiots that you see on Dr Phil....
'A -ve can be a +ve' if you see it from this side... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

Now I think I'm going to peuk.... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Bearcat99
03-09-2009, 04:00 PM
Originally posted by rnzoli:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Feathered_IV:
As always with this sim, you get as much out of it as you put in. It's the same with the mods.
So true! Our stance on the mods seems to depend on how much "unfulfilled" desires we had with the original version.

If you were able to take out from the vanilla version what you wanted, like absolutely level online play, game stability and feature consistency, mods will only bother you.

If you were looking for something else, such as your ability to create your own content, or remove "the bar", or solve a specific PITA with offline play, mods have meant opening a new era.

If possible, let's try to keep this thread sane. There is already a successful long-life thread on why the some people use the mod. I don't think it hurts anyone to have another thread supporting the people, who actually don't want the mods for some reason. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That is not true.. at least not in every case... I was perfectly happy with the vanilla version of the sim, and I am certain that I am not alone amon g the people who now use mods in this.... if there had been no mods at all I would still be enjoying it.. However, the mods DO enhance an already stellar product.. For me it was not getting things that appealed to me.. I saw things that appealed to me almost from day one... within a month of the mods breaking out there wewre several things that appealed to me.. like the default planes, the splashscreen mod, 6DoF and the sounds to name a few.. but I waited almost a year still. For me it was the fact that what I feared most about mods in this sim most, namely the destruction of online play, did not happen... in effect I saw that my fears though justified by past experience in other sims were unfounded in this situation.. and that I was wrong.. not only about the mods.. but the modders as well... It wasn't a matter of me being anti mod till I saw something I liked... and I knew from day one that they would not go away.. so we had better deal with it.. and I said so.. over and over and over.....and in that respect I was absolutely correct.

WTE_Galway
03-09-2009, 04:39 PM
Has anyone else noticed a distinct change in who gets upset about this issue?

The angry flaming trollers a year or so back tended to be the people against the mods but NOW the angry flaming trollers seem to be people that are in favor of mods and take mortal offence if the mods are criticised.

I find it interesting.

JG52Uther
03-09-2009, 04:50 PM
Why?
The vast majority of the 'angry flaming trollers' from a year or so back are now using the mods,so they have the same way of posting,just from the other side now! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

WTE_Galway
03-09-2009, 05:20 PM
that makes sense

Copperhead311th
03-09-2009, 05:34 PM
Originally posted by JG52Uther:
Why?
The vast majority of the 'angry flaming trollers' from a year or so back are now using the mods,so they have the same way of posting,just from the other side now! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

Well obviously i have to be very careful HERE what i say on the subject. And that's the reason WHY i have to be careful. well....that and my big mouth.

X32Wright
03-09-2009, 09:06 PM
Well we have a no-mod squad policy specially for online use. IF anybody in our squad wants to enjoy the mods they can do so offline. But if they want to play online in a DF or COOP room they must not be using any mods of any kind. We do allow special circumstance uses of mod like when doing movies where there are no existing maps to do a particular movie campaign but for all fairness for online dogfights no MODs at all.


We are probably one of the last squads with this policy.

Sillius_Sodus
03-10-2009, 12:47 AM
I fly in a no-mods squad as well, I suspect there are still a lot of us around.

Bearcat99
03-10-2009, 01:49 AM
Originally posted by joeap:
Pot meet kettle. when this thing first came up...it was the anti-mods who were screaming bloody murder the loudest (and rudest for the most part) who almost to a person switched over queitly to using mods.

Then those of us like myself (and I was real quiet about it at the start) with legitimate concerns and criticisms (including my bud Leitmotiv, now gone in virtual netherland, and an avid mod user) were shouted down as it is now the pro-mod crew who are lording it over, with the support of the moderators here. Like this post: moderator bias? (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/23110283/m/3561044937?r=3691018937#3691018937) look at the response to Dux...threatening a lock for someone stating his opinion which goes against the dominant current here is not on, in my respectful opinion. Kind regards.

Now how'd I miss this little gem.... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

Moderator bias? Pfftt!! My views on mods are very well known.. and have been since before and after I began using them. Bias? No I dont think so... My response to Dux was directly related to his statements and the fact that in both of his posts up to that point he mentioned alock. I think I was quite clear in my point in that post to Dux... In fact bias would have been to leave the thread locked.. which I didn't do after a sensible request from from a longtime forum member whom I happen to have a great deal of respect for..

Considering the vitriol that went back and forth on this issue from both camps I thionk my repsonse to Dux was pretty reasonable since, even if I was wrong in his intent the circumstantial evidence pointing towards an attempt to rehash that mess all over was pretty obvious.


Originally posted by McHilt:
Holy crap... lots of negativeness about this subject. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif
Not what I expected and evenso not what I had hoped for either. I just wanted to state that I'm very happy to still fly this sim with the same feel that came with my first fresh encounter in 2004.
That's all, no offense mates... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Fly happy people, with or without mods.

Which was why I initially locked the thread when it seemed that some were intentionally trying to restart an old moot debate.... since the facts 18 months down the road do not bear out most of the concerns those opposed to mods... like I was in the beginning had.


Originally posted by WTE_Galway:
Has anyone else noticed a distinct change in who gets upset about this issue?

The angry flaming trollers a year or so back tended to be the people against the mods but NOW the angry flaming trollers seem to be people that are in favor of mods and take mortal offence if the mods are criticised.
I find it interesting.

What I take offense at is not criticizing mods.. but the prospect of rehashing 18 month old manure...

JG52Uther
03-10-2009, 03:44 AM
I happily play with mods,on servers that have them,and just as happily turn the mods off with a switcher to play on servers that don't allow them.
The ONLY thing I miss on unmodded servers is 6 dof,which is something Oleg could have,and should have put into the sim himself.

tagTaken2
03-10-2009, 04:26 AM
Originally posted by JG52Uther:
The ONLY thing I miss on unmodded servers is 6 dof,which is something Oleg could have,and should have put into the sim himself.

+1

This is the only reason I downloaded the mods (not that the other stuff isn't nice). 6dof brings us closer to realistic views.

rnzoli
03-10-2009, 05:15 AM
Yes, although a poor workaround exists in 4.08 as well, which is the frequent switches between gunsight and normal view. I do that instinctively already, so I can survive without 6DOF, too. I also got used to rock the wing gently as I try to scan the skies, and that is probably also realistic. (IIRC Clostermann writes about identifying the German "experten" in his encounters with the FW190s by this behaviour - the top guys were always on the lookout, and this was visible on the small movements of their aircraft, compared to noobs, who flew very steady in formation).

Maybe Oleg wanted to put in the sim, but it was impossible to do without compromise. The floating reticle is an issue, which could not be included in a released commercial product.

The 6DOF is a good mod, but like many other mods, it goes slightly beyond that the old IL-2 engine can handle. This is why having mods can create the feeling of inconsistency - the 6DOF is great, but sometimes produces very disturbing artifact. Same with the sounds - some are great, but then you occasionally get very stupid results (e.g., door-creaking G-load sounds or in-flight explosions that remind me of a car crash) which kill the immersion more than in the vanilla version. And the reason is not poor modding, it is the result of over-stretching the limits of the IL-2 internal design. Oleg refused to go down that road, and I think he was completely right http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Feathered_IV
03-10-2009, 05:29 AM
I reckon it is a great thing that we all have a choice now and that there is an option available for every squad or individual's choice. I'm happy for everyone that finds themselves happy.

Mind you, I do feel sorry for those that don't have an install just like mine. It looks jaw droppingly fantastic, and runs like a whippet. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Copperhead311th
03-10-2009, 12:14 PM
Originally posted by X32Wright:
Well we have a no-mod squad policy specially for online use. IF anybody in our squad wants to enjoy the mods they can do so offline. But if they want to play online in a DF or COOP room they must not be using any mods of any kind. We do allow special circumstance uses of mod like when doing movies where there are no existing maps to do a particular movie campaign but for all fairness for online dogfights no MODs at all.


We are probably one of the last squads with this policy.

Well not the last man. 311th Also has that policy and has since it's inception. Long before the issue actually became a problem.
My former squadron that i ran here for 6 years Since the original IL-2 had that policy as well in it's SOP's. Sadly i think that has changed now. I have always been about equality and fair play for all. It's not just some thing that i belive in....it's part of who i am.

Copperhead311th
03-10-2009, 12:20 PM
Originally posted by tagTaken2:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JG52Uther:
The ONLY thing I miss on unmodded servers is 6 dof,which is something Oleg could have,and should have put into the sim himself.

+1

This is the only reason I downloaded the mods (not that the other stuff isn't nice). 6dof brings us closer to realistic views. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

yes but what about the poor sap you just beat in a fight who DOESN'T have 6DOF? He's flying legeit on a clean server with basic TIR with out 6DOF and yet there you are with it. Advantage? possibly.

P.FunkAdelic
03-10-2009, 12:20 PM
I'll say it again just to be clear. I don't resent non mod users. I don't begrudge them their taste. I only take considerable exception to the superiority complex touted by those who lay their vanilla status on the table for all to see.

Its just annoying. It has all the appearance of civility but it is almost goading people to come back at it, inciting a flame war.

Its crossing into another camp and spitting at them cause they're there.

Its not that you can't have your opinion, its just the way some say 'I don't use mods'... and thats the sum of their post. What does that contribute other than a bait to come back and argue over it?

Its just a buggery is all.

As for advantages of mod users versus those who don't want to mod... well if you're that competitive and care about winning and think that one mod will win for you... why aren't you using mods? Real competitors look for the upper hand, they don't go minimalist and expect everyone else to have an equal plate. But then if you do want that then you go use one of the hardcore servers that doesn't have mods.

I play no pit servers and keep my pit on just cause I like it that way. I know its an advantage for the other guy but whatever, someone having 10 years of experience on me isn't fair either. War isn't fair. In a war sim I don't expect it to be some rock paper scissors battle. Just having better physical reflexes or vision endowed by genetics is an unfair advantage.

tagTaken2
03-10-2009, 12:42 PM
Originally posted by Copperhead311th:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by tagTaken2:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JG52Uther:
The ONLY thing I miss on unmodded servers is 6 dof,which is something Oleg could have,and should have put into the sim himself.

+1

This is the only reason I downloaded the mods (not that the other stuff isn't nice). 6dof brings us closer to realistic views. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

yes but what about the poor sap you just beat in a fight who DOESN'T have 6DOF? He's flying legeit on a clean server with basic TIR with out 6DOF and yet there you are with it. Advantage? possibly. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't fly online.

rnzoli
03-10-2009, 12:45 PM
Originally posted by P.FunkAdelic:
Its crossing into another camp and spitting at them cause they're there.

Lol, you have just done that with your statement here http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif


Real competitors look for the upper hand, they don't go minimalist and expect everyone else to have an equal plate.

REAL competitors prefer a fair play, otherwise its a competitoin of mods and other, uncontrollable advantages. And it's no fun to win because of a mod, or an advantage that cannot be addressed in the competition itself! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

na85
03-10-2009, 12:54 PM
Originally posted by Copperhead311th:

yes but what about the poor sap you just beat in a fight who DOESN'T have 6DOF? He's flying legeit on a clean server with basic TIR with out 6DOF and yet there you are with it. Advantage? possibly.

You could make the same point for TIR vs non-TIR users.

na85
03-10-2009, 12:57 PM
And I'll be honest... I was pretty excited about getting 6dof but when I used it for the first time I was like "okay? so?"

It really doesn't make as much of a difference as I thought it would. It doesn't help me check my 6 easier, doesn't help me lead my shots better, etc.

The only time I really appreciate having 6dof is when I'm flying late-war 109's and I can just lean to see around the thick struts instead of pushing shift+F1

crucislancer
03-10-2009, 01:18 PM
Originally posted by Copperhead311th:
yes but what about the poor sap you just beat in a fight who DOESN'T have 6DOF? He's flying legeit on a clean server with basic TIR with out 6DOF and yet there you are with it. Advantage? possibly.

While I understand where you are coming from with this comment, in the end it doesn’t wash. You could take two players, both with a clean install of 4.08m, and have them duke it out online. But, one of them is dirt poor, has a computer that barely runs IL-2 at 800x600, and has a cheap all-in-one joystick. The other guy is filthy rich, has a top of the line PC, big widescreen monitor, multi-button HOTAS, pedals, TrackIR 4, basically the works. Now, who has the advantage? Does anyone complain about the rich guy who has all those goodies that helps him with SA and reaction time? How would you know, anyways?

rnzoli
03-10-2009, 02:57 PM
I would kindly remind everyone about HART_Dreyer http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

He was quite good, but odd enough, in all his combat tracks, he used the keypad to look around very quickly. When we told him how great help TIR would be instead, he said he tried it, it was great for realism and immerison, but IT WAS TOO SLOW FOR HIM DURING COMBAT http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

And if we bring in TIR vs Non-TIR, HOTAS vs. Logitech rando-stick, we might bring in also how much time you have to practice http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif School-kids during the summer can wash the floor with some of us so called 'veterans', because you can't keep the pace with someone, who practiced literally 10-20 times more than you.

So in short: it will never be completely equal, but as long as it is close enough, it's fun for both sides.

R_Target
03-10-2009, 04:43 PM
Originally posted by rnzoli:
And if we bring in TIR vs Non-TIR, HOTAS vs. Logitech rando-stick, we might bring in also how much time you have to practice http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif School-kids during the summer can wash the floor with some of us so called 'veterans', because you can't keep the pace with someone, who practiced literally 10-20 times more than you.

Be sure. I'll add that anyone with time to spend becoming an IL2 ace has time to grab a part-time job to get decent kit.

X32Wright
03-10-2009, 05:45 PM
Not to mention some of us used to do 12 hour Il-2 Dogfights during the summer. Yeah that's 12 hours it was from 8pm to 8am at one time. Taking only breaks for food and water and bathroom breaks. The averag was 4-5 hours during summer at one time for me and a squadmate.

I cannot do this anymore but that was how we got better. We got killed a million times to LEARN well.

Copperhead311th
03-10-2009, 06:17 PM
Originally posted by na85:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Copperhead311th:

yes but what about the poor sap you just beat in a fight who DOESN'T have 6DOF? He's flying legeit on a clean server with basic TIR with out 6DOF and yet there you are with it. Advantage? possibly.


You could make the same point for TIR vs non-TIR users. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

And i have in the past. back when tir 1st showed up...but then i realized how rediculas that arguemnt was be cause TIR is a HARDWARE upgrade. Same ia not everyone has the same graphics card. Some one with better grafics can see better what's going onthan some who desn't.
So that's a really bad argument.

Copperhead311th
03-10-2009, 06:20 PM
Originally posted by crucislancer:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Copperhead311th:
yes but what about the poor sap you just beat in a fight who DOESN'T have 6DOF? He's flying legeit on a clean server with basic TIR with out 6DOF and yet there you are with it. Advantage? possibly.

While I understand where you are coming from with this comment, in the end it doesn’t wash. You could take two players, both with a clean install of 4.08m, and have them duke it out online. But, one of them is dirt poor, has a computer that barely runs IL-2 at 800x600, and has a cheap all-in-one joystick. The other guy is filthy rich, has a top of the line PC, big widescreen monitor, multi-button HOTAS, pedals, TrackIR 4, basically the works. Now, who has the advantage? Does anyone complain about the rich guy who has all those goodies that helps him with SA and reaction time? How would you know, anyways? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Again that's HARDWARE. yeah that's unfair in a way....but it's not a manipulation oft he software which was on an even footing.

major_setback
03-10-2009, 06:38 PM
I've not tried any mods, for various reasons.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_KljvhAx7-hI/SYH3s53As7I/AAAAAAAAAUI/HfvQhwjZ9PA/s400/mods+vs+rockers+insigniajpg

Treetop64
03-10-2009, 08:41 PM
+1

I've tried a few of the mods and was not all that terribly impressed with them. However, I will say that a lot of the cockpit textures look outstanding, especially for the early-war Russian equipment. Some of the maps look promising as well.

But, right now I'm totally glued to the EnjoyR's "Drang Nacht Osten" DGen campaings. I've been playing them for months now. Say what you will about DGen, but this stuff is great.

4.09b with new default skins for me. The mods are fine, but between EnjoyR's DGen campaigns, DCG 3.40, and Mat Manager, as well as 1946 itself, there's still more than enough here to keep me happy without modding.

danjama
03-10-2009, 09:39 PM
Where can i have a look at these DGEN's treetop?

Bearcat99
03-10-2009, 10:28 PM
Originally posted by Copperhead311th:
yes but what about the poor sap you just beat in a fight who DOESN'T have 6DOF? He's flying legeit on a clean server with basic TIR with out 6DOF and yet there you are with it. Advantage? possibly.

Not very much...


Originally posted by na85:
And I'll be honest... I was pretty excited about getting 6dof but when I used it for the first time I was like "okay? so?"

It really doesn't make as much of a difference as I thought it would. It doesn't help me check my 6 easier, doesn't help me lead my shots better, etc.

The only time I really appreciate having 6dof is when I'm flying late-war 109's and I can just lean to see around the thick struts instead of pushing shift+F1

Which is why I say the 6DoF mod is a moot mod as far as combat... for me it enhances my overall immersion while flying to & from and landings & T/O.. but in the heat of combat it doesnt add up to much.. and most of the modfs that appeal to me are like that... being able to zoom in or out on my map... being able to open and close my radiator.. instead of having to cycle all the way through the views..

Look guys... there are folks who have no honor... there are squads.. squads who have been around for a while who cheat.. I wont mention any names because I was told in confidence.. but I have seen proof... and it is pathetic that grown men would stoop to something so underhanded ... in a flight sim... but it happens..

That possibility was there from the very first day that the mods were created.. and choosing to use the mods wisely or honorably or to not do so will have no bearing on those who have no honor.. and apparently not much in the way of skill either since they have to resort to such means as tangerine aircraft to be competitive..

Nothing can stop people like that... so I don't sweat them.. but this sim is on a downhill slope for me.. and eventually I will stop flying it.. so I want to enjoy it while I can... and I do.

Copperhead311th
03-10-2009, 11:14 PM
Originally posted by Bearcat99:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Copperhead311th:
yes but what about the poor sap you just beat in a fight who DOESN'T have 6DOF? He's flying legeit on a clean server with basic TIR with out 6DOF and yet there you are with it. Advantage? possibly.

Not very much...


Originally posted by na85:
And I'll be honest... I was pretty excited about getting 6dof but when I used it for the first time I was like "okay? so?"

It really doesn't make as much of a difference as I thought it would. It doesn't help me check my 6 easier, doesn't help me lead my shots better, etc.

The only time I really appreciate having 6dof is when I'm flying late-war 109's and I can just lean to see around the thick struts instead of pushing shift+F1

Which is why I say the 6DoF mod is a moot mod as far as combat... for me it enhances my overall immersion while flying to & from and landings & T/O.. but in the heat of combat it doesnt add up to much.. and most of the modfs that appeal to me are like that... being able to zoom in or out on my map... being able to open and close my radiator.. instead of having to cycle all the way through the views..

Look guys... there are folks who have no honor... there are squads.. squads who have been around for a while who cheat.. I wont mention any names because I was told in confidence.. but I have seen proof... and it is pathetic that grown men would stoop to something so underhanded ... in a flight sim... but it happens..

That possibility was there from the very first day that the mods were created.. and choosing to use the mods wisely or honorably or to not do so will have no bearing on those who have no honor.. and apparently not much in the way of skill either since they have to resort to such means as tangerine aircraft to be competitive..

Nothing can stop people like that... so I don't sweat them.. but this sim is on a downhill slope for me.. and eventually I will stop flying it.. so I want to enjoy it while I can... and I do. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah and i know who they are too. Some of us new about it long before it got public knowlage.
But as long as we knew who they were and it was kept quiet it could be avoided. That is to say when certain squads or certain players from those squads showed up we would quietly leave.
And i have no problem enlighting everyone here who they are, even if it would be in poor taste becuse they deserve to be called out.
However i'm already on shakey ground as it is so i better just zip it before i egt my self into more trouble.

FYI, Thier very good at what they do. it's very subtle. the ones iv'e seen you have to look very closly to catch it. Little engine boost here, extra ammo there. yeah it makes a differance.

skarden
03-11-2009, 02:04 AM
Originally posted by Copperhead311th:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by crucislancer:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Copperhead311th:
yes but what about the poor sap you just beat in a fight who DOESN'T have 6DOF? He's flying legeit on a clean server with basic TIR with out 6DOF and yet there you are with it. Advantage? possibly.

While I understand where you are coming from with this comment, in the end it doesn’t wash. You could take two players, both with a clean install of 4.08m, and have them duke it out online. But, one of them is dirt poor, has a computer that barely runs IL-2 at 800x600, and has a cheap all-in-one joystick. The other guy is filthy rich, has a top of the line PC, big widescreen monitor, multi-button HOTAS, pedals, TrackIR 4, basically the works. Now, who has the advantage? Does anyone complain about the rich guy who has all those goodies that helps him with SA and reaction time? How would you know, anyways? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Again that's HARDWARE. yeah that's unfair in a way....but it's not a manipulation oft he software which was on an even footing. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm sorry copper but i strongly disagree with you on this point.As someone how has gone from the poor guy in this example(which i think is a very good example) to someone who has now gone to the other side of the example with all the gear(through saving my *** off though,not from being rich)I can tell you that a better rig,stick,pedals and trackir are are far far bigger improvment and advantage over a crappy system without the extra's then just 6DOf over someone without it,far bigger!

The argument that thats hardware and not software makes absolutly zero difference,because if you follow your logic to the end its basicaly saying its ok to have a big advantage over someone as long as they've got more money and can afford it.The advantage is still there regardless of if it's hardware or software.Software on a very good system compared to the same software on a crappy system is no way "an even footing"

I'm not flaming you,I just disagree strongly with you about this.

thoughts?

rnzoli
03-11-2009, 04:12 AM
thoughts?
As I said, there will never be 100% equal footing, the question is what is "close enough".

Dont' forget that in respect to hardware, the server's difficulty switches already give you a little hint on what to expect. The more switches are on, the more hardware you need, the more practice you need etc. So if you don't feel ready to try that, you don't join that server and that group of players, but another server with pad lock, air start etc.

The big difference is that difficulty switches are quite visible and valid for everyone.

But having a mod on a CRT=0 server is quite invisible. This makes a huge difference. The server rules usually try to get that sorted out, good moderation also helps, but it is a much greyer zone now, than hardware was before. This makes it playing on a 4.08 CRT=2 server safer still (which is an upside to both camps).

K_Freddie
03-11-2009, 05:24 AM
You can have all the bells and whistles, but if you have no brainz... it's not going to help you one bit, and even if you had some, the adv is not that great.

As an example: Maybe it's just me, but everyone raved about TIR when it came out. I eventually got it, tried it a few times, then 'tossed it in the bin'. I 'fly' a gazillion time better without it.
Give me a proper HMD, Yesssiirr, but not a wannabe thing.
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

tagTaken2
03-11-2009, 05:50 AM
Originally posted by K_Freddie:

As an example: Maybe it's just me,


Yep, it's just you.

It's a a wannabe thing for a wannabe experience (ie, the virtual skies), so I don't think you can disrespect it for that.

Bearcat99
03-11-2009, 07:32 AM
Originally posted by K_Freddie:

As an example: Maybe it's just me, but everyone raved about TIR when it came out. I eventually got it, tried it a few times, then 'tossed it in the bin'. I 'fly' a gazillion time better without it.
Give me a proper HMD, Yesssiirr, but not a wannabe thing.
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

I think it all boils down to what you expect from such hardware.. I never expected TIR to make me a better fighter.. I expected it to make me a better virtual pilot.. and enhance my simming experience.. which it does... Just because I have it though doesnt mean I wont stuill make decisions that get me shot down.. like climbing when I should dive... or shooting at the wrong time.. or not keeping my SA on point.. or loosing my wingman... or any number of things that eventually wind up getting on in the virtual dirt..

Copperhead... drop a PM RE the scallawags....


As I said, there will never be 100% equal footing, the question is what is "close enough".

Dont' forget that in respect to hardware, the server's difficulty switches already give you a little hint on what to expect. The more switches are on, the more hardware you need, the more practice you need etc. So if you don't feel ready to try that, you don't join that server and that group of players, but another server with pad lock, air start etc.

The big difference is that difficulty switches are quite visible and valid for everyone.

But having a mod on a CRT=0 server is quite invisible. This makes a huge difference. The server rules usually try to get that sorted out, good moderation also helps, but it is a much greyer zone now, than hardware was before. This makes it playing on a 4.08 CRT=2 server safer still (which is an upside to both camps).

Precisely.... and the potential for this kind of thing has much less to do with AAA than with the character or lack thereof of those who would stoop to such means...

Personally I think things would be a lot worse had AAA not been here. I think they had a lot to do wit keeping the brakes on this type of thing.

LOL... I might be thinking of another thread....

vpmedia
03-11-2009, 07:50 AM
sorry I'm not exactly sure because I'm not native english but isnt this topic what you call 'overshare'?

arjisme
03-11-2009, 07:56 AM
Originally posted by Copperhead311th:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by na85:
You could make the same point for TIR vs non-TIR users.

And i have in the past. back when tir 1st showed up...but then i realized how rediculas that arguemnt was be cause TIR is a HARDWARE upgrade. Same ia not everyone has the same graphics card. Some one with better grafics can see better what's going onthan some who desn't.
So that's a really bad argument. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>You are making an arbitrary distinction. Whether through software or through hardware, if you gain an advantage, you are not on equal footing. So, given this from you:


I have always been about equality and fair play for all. It's not just some thing that i belive in....it's part of who i am.


Why are you are so forgiving about hardware advantages?

Bearcat99
03-11-2009, 08:05 AM
Probably because hardware is a moot point... you cant control in any way whatsoever what another person uses for their simming experience that goes beyond the realm of the server settings... and to label better hardware a "cheat" or "unfair" is like saying it is unfair to small breasted women that other women are so well endowed... and nowadays.. you can just buy a pair... same thing with hardware.

crucislancer
03-11-2009, 09:01 AM
Originally posted by Bearcat99:
Probably because hardware is a moot point... you cant control in any way whatsoever what another person uses for their simming experience that goes beyond the realm of the server settings... and to label better hardware a "cheat" or "unfair" is like saying it is unfair to small breasted women that other women are so well endowed... and nowadays.. you can just buy a pair... same thing with hardware.

LOL! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

knightflyte
03-11-2009, 10:12 AM
Originally posted by crucislancer:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bearcat99:
Probably because hardware is a moot point... you cant control in any way whatsoever what another person uses for their simming experience that goes beyond the realm of the server settings... and to label better hardware a "cheat" or "unfair" is like saying it is unfair to small breasted women that other women are so well endowed... and nowadays.. you can just buy a pair... same thing with hardware.

LOL! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Remember the giant aeriola one had to wear on ones forehead in the early Track IR days? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

R_Target
03-11-2009, 10:19 AM
Originally posted by vpmedia:
sorry I'm not exactly sure because I'm not native english but isnt this topic what you call 'overshare'?

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif Yes.

rnzoli
03-11-2009, 10:54 AM
overshare (verb): to divulge excessive personal information, as in a blog or broadcast interview, prompting reactions ranging from alarmed discomfort to approval.

Treetop64
03-11-2009, 07:31 PM
Originally posted by danjama:
Where can i have a look at these DGEN's treetop?

You can find them at Mission4Today:
http://mission4today.com/index.php

Do a search for EnjoyR's DGen and you're there. Note; there are several versions of EnjoyR DGen listed and you'll want to find the one that suits your installation. For example, if you've installed some paid add-on campaigns (Ostfront, Battle over Europe, etc.) then you'll want to download only the version of EnjoyR DGen that suports those addons. Similarly, if you have a clean installation of 1946 then there's a version for that, too.

In a nutshell, EnjoyR DGen campains are community made, greatly enhanced DGen campaigns. The "Drang Nacht Osten" campaigns are particularly well made in that they are - from a historical viewpoint - maticulously well-researched. Ground and shipping activity is significantly increased and is appropriately dense and sparse at different phases of the fight on the eastern front. The convoys actually go somewhere, and don't simply stop and pull off into the dirt ten minutes into the mission. Artillery batteries, troop staging areas, etc. - all with plenty of support vehicles - are placed at strategic points near the front and scattered throughout the map. You'll spot German artillery blimps and Soviet armored/turreted trains. The port at Sevastopol in 1942 is protected with tons of AAA, ships, and barrage balloons. Most of the towns, villiges, and especially the train stations you fly over are populated with trucks, half-tracks, tanks, other vehicles, AAA and ground artillery, etc.

I was only interested in flying Sturmovik and Jabo missions after I installed EnjoyR, and it's a world of difference!

I'm only scratching the surface. The author goes into much more detail in his well-written and very informative readme file.

Just be sure to backup your DGen folder before installing and you're all set.

Copperhead311th
03-12-2009, 03:18 AM
Originally posted by skarden:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Copperhead311th:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by crucislancer:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Copperhead311th:
yes but what about the poor sap you just beat in a fight who DOESN'T have 6DOF? He's flying legeit on a clean server with basic TIR with out 6DOF and yet there you are with it. Advantage? possibly.

While I understand where you are coming from with this comment, in the end it doesn’t wash. You could take two players, both with a clean install of 4.08m, and have them duke it out online. But, one of them is dirt poor, has a computer that barely runs IL-2 at 800x600, and has a cheap all-in-one joystick. The other guy is filthy rich, has a top of the line PC, big widescreen monitor, multi-button HOTAS, pedals, TrackIR 4, basically the works. Now, who has the advantage? Does anyone complain about the rich guy who has all those goodies that helps him with SA and reaction time? How would you know, anyways? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Again that's HARDWARE. yeah that's unfair in a way....but it's not a manipulation oft he software which was on an even footing. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm sorry copper but i strongly disagree with you on this point.As someone how has gone from the poor guy in this example(which i think is a very good example) to someone who has now gone to the other side of the example with all the gear(through saving my *** off though,not from being rich)I can tell you that a better rig,stick,pedals and trackir are are far far bigger improvment and advantage over a crappy system without the extra's then just 6DOf over someone without it,far bigger!

The argument that thats hardware and not software makes absolutly zero difference,because if you follow your logic to the end its basicaly saying its ok to have a big advantage over someone as long as they've got more money and can afford it.The advantage is still there regardless of if it's hardware or software.Software on a very good system compared to the same software on a crappy system is no way "an even footing"

I'm not flaming you,I just disagree strongly with you about this.

thoughts? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah i see what you saying and in a way i gree. but i'm kinda in a catch 22 on the hardware/software thing becuse i can see it from both angles and agree with moth sides there. which is really confusing when you stop to think about it.

Copperhead311th
03-12-2009, 03:32 AM
Originally posted by Bearcat99:
Probably because hardware is a moot point... you cant control in any way whatsoever what another person uses for their simming experience that goes beyond the realm of the server settings... and to label better hardware a "cheat" or "unfair" is like saying it is unfair to small breasted women that other women are so well endowed... and nowadays.. you can just buy a pair... same thing with hardware.

ROLF yep that pretty much sums it up. said it better than i could.
yet i can sympathize with the guys who don't have TIR or big bad *** rigs with all the goodies. I can sympathize becuse i AM ONE OF THOSE GUYS. I just got a a new X-52 last month, i have an old TIR-2 that a squadmat gave me when i was C/O with the 310th....it's right here on the desk. rarely used. And the system i have i put toghter out of 200.00 i saved for a NEW TOWER & POWER supply and a MOBO/PROCESSOR/1GB RAM i bought of Sparx that sat in the closet for over a year before i could even aford put it togther. All of which is out of date now. Along with a practically brand spankin new Audigy2 card and an 8500LE that just arived in the mail one day from FK9thGypsy who was in the old squad with me. out of the kindess of his heart. and that's twice he'd done that btw.

So that's what i'm running on so i can compleatly understand the harwear issue fomr both sides.

But Bear pretty much sumed it up for me per batem.

Copperhead311th
03-12-2009, 03:41 AM
And lastly......sigh.

I'm not sure how much longer i can hold out on the mods issue. It seems that just about every F*cking one has gone that way and finding a good server on HL that is mod free or hell even a damn coop for that matter....is becoming increasingly dificult to say the least. The only one i was comfortable on was War-Clouds and as of tonight they anounced that thier going mod by the end of the month.

So it won't be long before i'm forced to make the choice of jumping off the bridge with the rest of the morrons.....or being banished to the hell that is IL-2 offline.

Either comperamise my priciples and follower the crowd....never been much forthat....or suck it up stick to my guns till SoW....or Hell freezes over. and frankly my money is on Hell.

JG52Uther
03-12-2009, 04:12 AM
Originally posted by Copperhead311th:
And lastly......sigh.

I'm not sure how much longer i can hold out on the mods issue. It seems that just about every F*cking one has gone that way and finding a good server on HL that is mod free or hell even a damn coop for that matter....is becoming increasingly dificult to say the least. The only one i was comfortable on was War-Clouds and as of tonight they anounced that thier going mod by the end of the month.

So it won't be long before i'm forced to make the choice of jumping off the bridge with the rest of the morrons.....or being banished to the hell that is IL-2 offline.

Either comperamise my priciples and follower the crowd....never been much forthat....or suck it up stick to my guns till SoW....or Hell freezes over. and frankly my money is on Hell.

So everyone who uses mods are morons are we?
Can't understand how you get away with constant abuse against people here.

joeap
03-12-2009, 05:36 AM
Originally posted by JG52Uther:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Copperhead311th:
And lastly......sigh.

I'm not sure how much longer i can hold out on the mods issue. It seems that just about every F*cking one has gone that way and finding a good server on HL that is mod free or hell even a damn coop for that matter....is becoming increasingly dificult to say the least. The only one i was comfortable on was War-Clouds and as of tonight they anounced that thier going mod by the end of the month.

So it won't be long before i'm forced to make the choice of jumping off the bridge with the rest of the morrons.....or being banished to the hell that is IL-2 offline.

Either comperamise my priciples and follower the crowd....never been much forthat....or suck it up stick to my guns till SoW....or Hell freezes over. and frankly my money is on Hell.

So everyone who uses mods are morons are we?
Can't understand how you get away with constant abuse against people here. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree with you about not abusing people Uther, but I can see Copperhead's point about being forced to go along with mods to fly online. So much for choice, so much for reconciliation. We just swung from one extreme to the other over the last year and a half. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

rnzoli
03-12-2009, 06:29 AM
Copperhead, I don't think we can be blamed for using mods once in a while in these circumstances, don't torture yourself over this issue. I still hate the way the modding possibility was obtained in the first place, but look at Oleg himself, he let the steam out, made his statement about those responsible and closed the book on the subject. He himself disapproved, but he didn't feel the need to fight against it over and over again.

So in a similar manner, if online play compatibility forces you to install a mod, then make sure it is of high quality, and that the server uses CRT=2. It doesn't mean you approve or support everything behind your mod - you do it out of necessity. You need to keep focused on why do you go online: to socialize with people interested in the same subject. Oleg made a very good combat sim for this, and it is neither his nor your fault that it was broken, why would you punish yourself for that????

If you still want to be faithful to the original product, leave a clean copy of 4.08 or 4.09b on your PC. With the switchers, it is quite easy to go back and you can always remember where you are coming from.

rnzoli
03-12-2009, 06:37 AM
Originally posted by JG52Uther:
So everyone who uses mods are morons are we?
Can't understand how you get away with constant abuse against people here. If this is the only thing you understood from his post, then you missed his point completely. Want to report him to the moderators? You know he is on short leash for speaking his mind without filtering for political correctness.

jamesblonde1979
03-12-2009, 06:43 AM
Originally posted by Copperhead311th:
or being banished to the hell that is IL-2 offline.



It's not hell anymore, there's an AI mod that makes it much more playable...

Sorry dude, I just couldn't help it.

I mean why be so up tight? It's not like you cant go back to a vanilla version if you choose. The fact is you probably won't want too.

Give it a try and then decide.

JG52Uther
03-12-2009, 07:00 AM
Originally posted by rnzoli:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JG52Uther:
So everyone who uses mods are morons are we?
Can't understand how you get away with constant abuse against people here. If this is the only thing you understood from his post, then you missed his point completely. Want to report him to the moderators? You know he is on short leash for speaking his mind without filtering for political correctness. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No I understood his post.I still see plenty of mod free servers and coops on HL.I know a lot of people who won't use mods,for their own reasons,even in the squad.When they fly we change missions/servers accordingly.I have a lot of respect for those people,as they made a decision and will stick by it,even though there are now flyable planes they would love to fly,but they have made a moral decision not to use mods no matter what.
As for the 'short leash' comment,so what? Are you saying that because someone has got into trouble before here,its ok for them to carry on in the same fashion again as long as no one says anything?
I'm sure he will be fine anyway.

HuninMunin
03-12-2009, 07:43 AM
In fact what rnzoli calls extremes, meaning two heavily contrasted standpoints over the subject turns out to be homogenization.
Once the big rift occurred the two camps were causal products with antithetic predictions over the the one same case.
This case being ( simplified for exemplification ) whether or not the new possibilities would end up doing benefit or harm to the IL-2 product and in consequence it's community.
I leave out the third group believing that the new possibilities were wrong in an ethical sense because they exclude themselves from the argument for denial as a product of principle ( although some members of said third group seem to feel the urge to remind the rest of us of their position time and time again; disturbing the real debate ).
Back to the original strain of thoughts: The practical development during the last months did not widen the rift - a factual condition one can witness f.e. following the ever growing number of sub-communities that are convinced that the original negative standpoint was valid but that it's concerns did not become reality.

In that sense the growing conversion observable momentarily is not a matter of one standpoint "winning" over the other, but the reconciliation of both extremes into one body.
What we see right now is the IL-2 community regaining more and more of it's once homogeneous state; slowly growing together again.
Happy times.

rnzoli
03-12-2009, 08:14 AM
Originally posted by JG52Uther:
you saying that because someone has got into trouble before here,its ok for them to carry on in the same fashion again as long as no one says anything? Actually the moderators already told him and he aknowledged the warnings, so it's absolutely not OK, therefore it's left to you, whether you use that little yellow triangle in his post, or give the man a little space on speaking his mind, knowing that labeling you or me morons was not the point at all, and picking on it can be fun, but not necessarily constructive. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

jamesblonde1979
03-12-2009, 08:25 AM
There's no need for this kind of thing guys. Lighten up.

rnzoli
03-12-2009, 08:35 AM
Originally posted by HuninMunin:
I leave out the third group believing that the new possibilities were wrong in an ethical sense because they exclude themselves from the argument for denial as a product of principle ( although some members of said third group seem to feel the urge to remind the rest of us of their position time and time again; disturbing the real debate ).
It's an understandable urge, because it falls into the categories of life's big questions, like can you enjoy add-ons things, which were produced with tools that were obtained illegally or unethically?

I think the resolution of this problem is to understand, that the majority of today's mod makers did not play any active role in breaking the encryption and refrain from using those tools for anything but trying to add on to the IL-2 experience.


following the ever growing number of sub-communities that are convinced that the original negative standpoint was valid but that it's concerns did not become reality.
Some concerns certainly became reality, but the utmost concern, i.e., the fast destruction of online play, didn't. The sky hasn't fallen on online play, although the roof became a bit lower http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

HuninMunin
03-12-2009, 09:22 AM
Yes it's more then understandable and an aspect that consumed alot of my own thoughts about it all in the beginning.
In fact I myself was very vocal in opposing the hacking of the original code ( both here and in the German community ).
However very quickly I came to realise that the barrier was broken behind the possibility of returning to equilibrium.
As I cared for the IL-2 community and still do maybe more then a game is really worth I decided to take an active role and contribute to those sub-parts of the modding community that wanted to preserve and enhance on the integrity of IL-2.
So I went from being a reactionary Ubi-animal to core AAA member. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif

PS
Not exclusively speaking for myself here.
Jolly, Wolf, Waggel, Zorin, Jagr, Magpie etc. share the same sentiments.

Treetop64
03-12-2009, 10:11 AM
Though I don't agree with Copperhead's choice of words, especially the name-calling business, the guy does have a valid point. If you're not installing mods and you regularly play online, well, what are you going to do?

However, offline play is certainly not the "hell" he describes, not by a long shot.

McHilt
03-12-2009, 11:17 AM
Discussion still going, well... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif
Gentlemen, if I were to have a BIG, BIIIIIG amount of money I'd create a big IL-2 gaming hall somewhere between Russia and the USA, packed with 1000 topnotch rigs, a clean 4.09 install on them all, plus pedals and TIR, beers, wodka, name it... surround sound, yes Ha!
I would all invite you to come over for weeks to play DFs in realistic mode. Wouldn't that be fun in the first place? We could see who's really on top and experience pretty and fair play.
But hey, I happen to be a poor bastard. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
(even if I had that amount of money I'd probably feel ashamed spending my money on 1000 rigs too, after reconsidering this ridiculous but not so bad idea.)

Hookecho
03-12-2009, 11:59 AM
Originally posted by Copperhead311th:
So it won't be long before i'm forced to make the choice of jumping off the bridge with the rest of the morrons.....or being banished to the hell that is IL-2 offline.

Well if it troubles you so much that you cant (or no longer will be able) to find non-mod servers, then pony up the jack and host your own damn server and set it up how ever the he-double hockey sticks you want that will assuage your soap box morality. It will thus be in the public arena and either others will join you there or they wont. But calling out a group that runs and pays for and supports their own server because they have decided to go in a different direction than you is bush league.

And you top it off with calling those of us who use and produce mods morons is over the top. It takes a huge amount of effort to make things like map mods, like in the hundreds of hours of work. So sorry if filling in gaps and fixing things that should have been fixed long....long ago instead of getting flying Wareing Blenders into the game (I' looking at you Oleg....) and by doing so upsets your stance atop your soap box. But I take offense to being called a moron, and I suspect others do as well.

Copperhead311th
03-12-2009, 02:05 PM
Originally posted by rnzoli:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JG52Uther:
you saying that because someone has got into trouble before here,its ok for them to carry on in the same fashion again as long as no one says anything? Actually the moderators already told him and he aknowledged the warnings, so it's absolutely not OK, therefore it's left to you, whether you use that little yellow triangle in his post, or give the man a little space on speaking his mind, knowing that labeling you or me morons was not the point at all, and picking on it can be fun, but not necessarily constructive. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thank you rnzoli, at leat you got the point. You may or may not agree with my position, but at least SOMEONE finanlly understands what i'm trying to say.
MORONS: It was a generalzation and directed at no one in piticular. I actually did't think it would even have been noticed. The morron coment was made offhandedly with NO MALICIOUS INTENT TO OFFEND OR INSULT ANYONE I think by now that it's well known that that were my intention i would and could have gone much farther. Honestly, i never gave the word a second thought it just came out. Obviously those that oppse my views will at this point take issue with any little thing i say. And use it to whatever means they will. But since there was no actual INTENT on my mart i would humbly ask that we let this one go.

@ Uther, your making a mountian out of a ant hill. you take one line from that paragraph and use it out of context. nice spin job. really.

xTHRUDx
03-12-2009, 02:16 PM
Originally posted by McHilt:
Discussion still going, well... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif
Gentlemen, if I were to have a BIG, BIIIIIG amount of money I'd create a big IL-2 gaming hall somewhere between Russia and the USA, packed with 1000 topnotch rigs, a clean 4.09 install on them all, plus pedals and TIR, beers, wodka, name it... surround sound, yes Ha!
I would all invite you to come over for weeks to play DFs in realistic mode. Wouldn't that be fun in the first place? We could see who's really on top and experience pretty and fair play.
But hey, I happen to be a poor bastard. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
(even if I had that amount of money I'd probably feel ashamed spending my money on 1000 rigs too, after reconsidering this ridiculous but not so bad idea.)

we are doing that, sort of. even copper will be there flying the mods.
read about it here.
http://forums.ubi.com/eve/foru...3110283/m/8581002937 (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/23110283/m/8581002937)

Copperhead311th
03-12-2009, 02:25 PM
Originally posted by xTHRUDx:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by McHilt:
Discussion still going, well... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif
Gentlemen, if I were to have a BIG, BIIIIIG amount of money I'd create a big IL-2 gaming hall somewhere between Russia and the USA, packed with 1000 topnotch rigs, a clean 4.09 install on them all, plus pedals and TIR, beers, wodka, name it... surround sound, yes Ha!
I would all invite you to come over for weeks to play DFs in realistic mode. Wouldn't that be fun in the first place? We could see who's really on top and experience pretty and fair play.
But hey, I happen to be a poor bastard. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
(even if I had that amount of money I'd probably feel ashamed spending my money on 1000 rigs too, after reconsidering this ridiculous but not so bad idea.)

we are doing that, sort of. even copper will be there flying the mods.
read about it here.
http://forums.ubi.com/eve/foru...3110283/m/8581002937 (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/23110283/m/8581002937) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well i'm still as yet undecided on that as there is a LOT of real life issies that have to be cleared up before i can attend. and even then i gather that all i have to bring is my stick as they will have rental machines avalible for the event. So i actually don't have to install anything on my rig personally.
And that is a differant setting than here at HQ. That will be a LIVE event whith many other players all on an even playing feild on a closed server. I don't see the harm in it.
And i applaud those guys for doing something i had long wanted to do my self. and weather or not i can attend or not, i hope it's a raving success.

slipBall
03-12-2009, 03:38 PM
Originally posted by joeap:
*Sigh* I really am the last one then...


I'm there with you joeap!...you hang in there http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/shady.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

danjama
03-12-2009, 03:50 PM
Originally posted by Hookecho:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Copperhead311th:
So it won't be long before i'm forced to make the choice of jumping off the bridge with the rest of the morrons.....or being banished to the hell that is IL-2 offline.

Well if it troubles you so much that you cant (or no longer will be able) to find non-mod servers, then pony up the jack and host your own damn server and set it up how ever the he-double hockey sticks you want that will assuage your soap box morality. It will thus be in the public arena and either others will join you there or they wont. But calling out a group that runs and pays for and supports their own server because they have decided to go in a different direction than you is bush league.

And you top it off with calling those of us who use and produce mods morons is over the top. It takes a huge amount of effort to make things like map mods, like in the hundreds of hours of work. So sorry if filling in gaps and fixing things that should have been fixed long....long ago instead of getting flying Wareing Blenders into the game (I' looking at you Oleg....) and by doing so upsets your stance atop your soap box. But I take offense to being called a moron, and I suspect others do as well. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree wholeheartedly about your post until thelast section. I for one feel that we have had excellent, exemplary support from Oleg over the years, ok maybe we had a few too many "2 weeks, be sure" moments, but he always pulled his finger out and got there in the end. He was under NO OBLIGATION to do so. He did it for the love of his creation and the desire to share it. So dont have a go at Oleg about not getting mroe addons/maps. Fair enough, we didnt get the dive bombers we should have, but its very very very old news and is well known what happened there.

Never mind the fact that he is making us a NEW sim as we speak to replace this broken masterpiece.

Xiolablu3
03-12-2009, 04:21 PM
I havent tried a single Mod yet.

Not because I am against them, just never been bothered to try them.

joeap
03-12-2009, 04:46 PM
Originally posted by danjama:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Hookecho:

And you top it off with calling those of us who use and produce mods morons is over the top. It takes a huge amount of effort to make things like map mods, like in the hundreds of hours of work. So sorry if filling in gaps and fixing things that should have been fixed long....long ago instead of getting flying Wareing Blenders into the game (I' looking at you Oleg....) and by doing so upsets your stance atop your soap box. But I take offense to being called a moron, and I suspect others do as well.

I agree wholeheartedly about your post until thelast section. I for one feel that we have had excellent, exemplary support from Oleg over the years, ok maybe we had a few too many "2 weeks, be sure" moments, but he always pulled his finger out and got there in the end. He was under NO OBLIGATION to do so. He did it for the love of his creation and the desire to share it. So dont have a go at Oleg about not getting mroe addons/maps. Fair enough, we didnt get the dive bombers we should have, but its very very very old news and is well known what happened there.

Never mind the fact that he is making us a NEW sim as we speak to replace this broken masterpiece. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well said, that's one of the attitudes I disagree with myself.

Copperhead311th
03-12-2009, 06:41 PM
Which is one of the reasons i've been so opsed to it out side of the obvious pandora's box that's been opened. it just seems to me that the attidude was take " To Hell with Oleg we don't need you any more, thanks for everything O-man....oh and here's you EULA back...sorry we ran short of toilet paper..it's a little messy.

We got here by some ppls desire to curcomvent fair play becuse they may have thought this was or that was wrong and that it should be changed (190 cockpit bar for example) or that there was no way a BF-109 should loose to a p-40, or some other scewed sence of prospective. Or it could have just been the over all "we want it all and we want it all NOW attidude.

What ever it was it's done now, for good or for bad we're stuck with it. Even those of us who respect Oleg and understood that you could win in the sim by skill and that to fly the sim as it was and win was a challenge in it's self. Everyone, with the exception of hardware was on even footing. Now that is gone for good. So those of us who did not or don't wish to follow the same path as those who were miscontent with the sim as it was are forced to make choices. Choices that in all fairness, have been forced upon us by those in the comunity that chose the easy road. A road we would not have had to choose to take or not had things stayed with the status quo.

This rose bush has many thorns. far more now than it used to. It isn't just about fair play, or a missguiieded attempt to improve some thing that to many was perfectly fine as it was, nor is it about the ownership rights. It's a miiriad of issues and amazingly some of us cannot see past this being a simple flight sim, or thier own noses to see those issues for what they truly are. LIFE issues. Charecter issues. ect ect.

X32Wright
03-12-2009, 07:13 PM
My main problem with mod is simple:

TRUST and INTEGRITY.

When the files came from UBI or Oleg we all know it was 'safe' and the FM/DM were as designed by one man or entity (Oleg and 1C Maddox). Right now with the mod it is hard to know where the files are coming from and if thyre 'safe' or not or if they're the original EVEN IF the original person who did the MOD had good intentions (like trying to be fair with FM/DM etc.) It is really hard to know which files to trust and which files have integrity. This goes the same for the users of the mod. It is hard to trust now who isn't using a 'waepons mod' or a FM mod' or whatever else is out there.

I certainly hoped they stopped at JUST THE SOUNDS and MAYBE JUST MAYBE MAPS but they didn't so everything is suspect now for me. And yes I've had the Macchi 'weapons mod' tested on me personally so I know that one exists. I also have seen a Hurricane make a lopp form level flight like it was a G2. Crazy person who did that they didnt even try to make it something thats not so OBVIOUS.

Ultimately, if they got those mods what else can they have done? Not to mention the many problesm of missing sound and funny control surface problems that people on HL always ask about until you find out they installed the mod.

The mod has surely divided the community and to me that is the worse result of this modding business. Oh how the OPEN PIT vs CLOSED PIT and FR argument seems SO PALE now.

julian265
03-12-2009, 07:20 PM
Originally posted by Copperhead311th:
This rose bush has many thorns. far more now than it used to. It isn't just about fair play, or a missguiieded attempt to improve some thing that to many was perfectly fine as it was, nor is it about the ownership rights. It's a miiriad of issues and amazingly some of us cannot see past this being a simple flight sim, or thier own noses to see those issues for what they truly are. LIFE issues. Charecter issues. ect ect.

Wow. On the same level, some people are lateral thinkers, who see that they can improve things, and do so. Some clearly are not.

No one is forcing you to use mods. You can fly on mod-free servers. You can make your own if you wish... or do you just expect that one is provided?

julian265
03-12-2009, 07:26 PM
Originally posted by X32Wright:
My main problem with mod is simple:

TRUST and INTEGRITY.

So you don't trust the servers using the UI and CRT? I don't see them as unbreakable, but enough to guarantee that cheaters are unlikely to appear.

also, I think you'll find that hurries could always loop from level flight.

X32Wright
03-12-2009, 07:28 PM
I don't fly in servers that I don't trust PERIOD.

And yes I am aware of the CRT=2 being broken by a mod workaround. I know that one too. CRT=2 doesnt mean its SAFE it just means 'relatively safe'.

This saga just doesn't have any good end to it at all.

PS: As for the Hurricane, not the way I saw it. I can read 'relative energy states' pretty well.

Copperhead311th
03-12-2009, 08:57 PM
Originally posted by X32Wright:
I don't fly in servers that I don't trust PERIOD.

And yes I am aware of the CRT=2 being broken by a mod workaround. I know that one too. CRT=2 doesnt mean its SAFE it just means 'relatively safe'.

This saga just doesn't have any good end to it at all.

PS: As for the Hurricane, not the way I saw it. I can read 'relative energy states' pretty well.

A fact that i can personally attest too since Wright has handed me my @ss on a platter 4 or 5 times this week. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

Bearcat99
03-13-2009, 12:49 AM
Originally posted by Copperhead311th:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bearcat99:
Probably because hardware is a moot point... you cant control in any way whatsoever what another person uses for their simming experience that goes beyond the realm of the server settings... and to label better hardware a "cheat" or "unfair" is like saying it is unfair to small breasted women that other women are so well endowed... and nowadays.. you can just buy a pair... same thing with hardware.

ROLF yep that pretty much sums it up. said it better than i could.
yet i can sympathize with the guys who don't have TIR or big bad *** rigs with all the goodies. I can sympathize becuse i AM ONE OF THOSE GUYS. I just got a a new X-52 last month, i have an old TIR-2 that a squadmat gave me when i was C/O with the 310th....it's right here on the desk. rarely used. And the system i have i put toghter out of 200.00 i saved for a NEW TOWER & POWER supply and a MOBO/PROCESSOR/1GB RAM i bought of Sparx that sat in the closet for over a year before i could even aford put it togther. All of which is out of date now. Along with a practically brand spankin new Audigy2 card and an 8500LE that just arived in the mail one day from FK9thGypsy who was in the old squad with me. out of the kindess of his heart. and that's twice he'd done that btw.

So that's what i'm running on so i can compleatly understand the harwear issue fomr both sides.

But Bear pretty much sumed it up for me per batem. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Give that TIR2 another shot.. it takes a little tweaking.. but it is not bad. I had mine @ 3 years before I took the time to really get it set up right.... I wasn't crazy about it either at first but you can tweak it so that it is pretty stable except when someone turns on the lights behind you.

rnzoli
03-13-2009, 01:23 AM
Originally posted by X32Wright:
And yes I am aware of the CRT=2 being broken by a mod workaround. I know that one too. CRT=2 doesnt mean its SAFE it just means 'relatively safe'. I am aware of CRT=2 limitations (no protection agasint default skin changes), can you PM me on the details? Does the "workaaround" have to be on the server and the client side also, or enough on the client side? I only play cooperative servers, which are not attractive for such players, but eventually they may show up as well too - if the news is true and not just a hoax.
edit* for me it's convincing enough, if you demonstrate it on a clean v4.08 co-op server using CRT=2, I dont' actually need the "workaround" http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gifjust to be clear on this http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

skarden
03-13-2009, 02:54 AM
Geez some of you guys are pretty unlucky,I'v pretty much flown on nearly only mod servers since all this started and I'v yet to see a single cheater or hack.
Now i havn't been playing as long as some of you guys thats for sure,but I'm no idiot and a few tines I admit I'v suspected something fishy was afoot but recording all online sesions has it's perks and every single time I thought it was dodgy on review it wasn't,most of the time I was just not keeping my SA up and got blindsided by someone who "just appeared there and blew me away",every time.

Wright,CRT=2 is most definitely not safe,'relatively safe' yes,but IL-2 has always only been 'relatively safe'there are video's of game hacks on youtube that came out way before the "official" and AAA and the rest,that clearly show that ppl knew how to do it.More ppl know how to do it now yes,but the great upside to this particular game is that most of the ppl who play it are mature enough and past the juvinille act of cheating,not all no but most.And while i cant speak for other modding sites,anything from AAA(I'v only ever downloaded mods from there)have no FM or DM or weapons file changes at all,ever.And that is where most of the modding community gets its mods from.

All that said if you guys choose not to use them,well then thats more then fair enough,I don't think better of you for it but i dont think your being silly for it either like I know how some of the pro mod ppl can be.Just dont **** on our parade for our decision.
There are a lot of non mod servers out there so there's heaps to go around.



@copper we aren't here because

"some ppls desire to curcomvent fair play becuse they may have thought this was or that was wrong and that it should be changed (190 cockpit bar for example) or that there was no way a BF-109 should loose to a p-40, or some other scewed sence of prospective. Or it could have just been the over all "we want it all and we want it all NOW attidude."

If you go over th AAA and have a poke around you'll see that nearly all the modders there(certainly the guys responable for the most popular mods anyway) are in it to make our already excellent game more historical and imersive.Pilots could use 6dof,the new maps are accurate (ie.the slot,vast improvment!) improved 3d models (the P-40 was finaly corrected) clean and clearer cockpits where the gauges are crisp and easy to read, and on and on.oh and of course the good stuff (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums?a=tpc&s=400102&f=23110283&m=4621080376&r=1341079047#1341079047)

all in all it's taken a game I already loved and made it better for me personly and I feel like a kid at christmas whenever a new good mod arrives improves it a nit more,and I'm quiet picky about which ones I install too.

enjoy it or dont,but pls don't put ppl down who do

Not demanding,just asking.

K_Freddie
03-13-2009, 05:34 AM
To summarise:

- Mods 'enhanced' the game, made it look nice, sounded good..etc.

- Oleg didn't encourage this from the start as he knew it would become a thing like MSoft sims.

- No mods encourage online 'competition' play as you know that your opponents are 'not cheating', not so with mod play.

- 'No cheating' mod play limits the server to those you 'can trust' - still no guarantees.

- The game all these years has been about getting the best from your plane - visuals/audio do nothing for this. And if you look at many game mowdays.. they mostly about visuals and 'noise', and gameplay is... well mediocre.

- I would say that 1C's original plan was to encourage online play, and in that they're have been successful (mainly due to no mods). With mods you might be looking at an online play drop of 20%-30% (thumbsuck) of players, which is not beneficial ($$$) for 1C as they now lose centralised control of their game.

Roll on BOB..
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

McHilt
03-13-2009, 06:12 AM
I still think...
as long as there are mods involved during online gameplay, of whatever kind... cheating is never far away because we simply can't control what they're 'building' out there. It starts with a simple map but where does it end? modding knowhow spreads like wildfire, so many many guys can mod whatever they like.
Gameplay has lost it's thrustworthy that way
...a very simple fact.

Don't get me wrong here, those guys do a formidable job on 'add ons' but it comes with a price...

Bearcat99
03-13-2009, 06:43 AM
Originally posted by Copperhead311th:
And lastly......sigh.
I'm not sure how much longer i can hold out on the mods issue. It seems that just about every F*cking one has gone that way and finding a good server on HL that is mod free or hell even a damn coop for that matter....is becoming increasingly dificult to say the least. The only one i was comfortable on was War-Clouds and as of tonight they anounced that thier going mod by the end of the month.

So it won't be long before i'm forced to make the choice of jumping off the bridge with the rest of the morrons.....or being banished to the hell that is IL-2 offline.

Either comperamise my priciples and follower the crowd....never been much forthat....or suck it up stick to my guns till SoW....or Hell freezes over. and frankly my money is on Hell.

Y'see this is the kind of stuff you do that ticks me off.

Really. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

So what.... are you calling ME a frickin moron? How about all the other folks in this thread who said they use mods? So we are all morons, cheaters,hacks,skilless,clueless loosers eh? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

I mean seriously.. and you sling names around like frakkin Reeses Pieces.. C'mon man... You need to really really THINK before you type[/i]. I know you may not mean it that way.. but frankly Copperhead I am sick of seeing this kind of stuff from you. This "knee jerk slam em in the balls & give em h@ll cause the filter on my tongue works worse than my spell checker" http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/shady.gif thing you have had going on for the last few years is getting so old. Others may be willing to put up with it but I am getting tired of it. You know I like you man, but you need to chill out and think before you make statements like that because when you do http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif you insult a whole lot of people unnecessarily and perhaps unintentionally as well.


BRAIN IN GEAR-----> MOUTH IN MOTION

Works for me @ 95% of the time...


Originally posted by McHilt:
I still think...
as long as there are mods involved during online gameplay, of whatever kind... cheating is never far away because we simply can't control what they're 'building' out there. It starts with a simple map but where does it end? modding knowhow spreads like wildfire, so many many guys can mod whatever they like.
Gameplay has lost it's thrustworthy that way
...a very simple fact.
Don't get me wrong here, those guys do a formidable job on 'add ons' but it comes with a price...

While I fully understand where you are coming from... I still think that while cheaters will use mods to cheat... all mods are not cheats and all mod users are not cheaters.. and we do the whole process a great disservice when we fail to see that.

If we could legislate morality the world would be different. We can't, it isn't and that's the way it is.

rnzoli
03-13-2009, 07:42 AM
Originally posted by K_Freddie:
With mods you might be looking at an online play drop of 20%-30% (thumbsuck) of players The interesting thing is that no such drop is visible on HL at all. I can still see the weekend peaks at 900+, like 2-3 years ago.

What may not be so visible is change of players, many left, many came.

BaronUnderpants
03-13-2009, 09:24 AM
So there is a "Examples of why some of us use mods" thread thats perfectly fine without the flaming but we cant have a "Examples of why some of us DONT use mods"?


Thats wierd to say the least. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif And quit telling if i may say so myselfe.

"Runs and ducks for cover"



P.S. Maby we should stick to screenshots of clean 4.08 - .09 from now on http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif



http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc79/Maax1000/Untitled-2copy.jpg

http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc79/Maax1000/3.jpg

willyvic
03-13-2009, 09:28 AM
OK, enough of the moron comment comments. People protested, A Moderator intervened, and the poster was publicly admonished.

If any want to pursue it further use the PM system.

Side note: I want to remind all not to try and circumvent the language filter by using space fillers in objectionable words. It is against the Poliices and TOU of this board.

WV

Choctaw111
03-13-2009, 09:53 AM
This is the first I have posted in this thread.
I use the mods. I also have a clean install of Il2 on my PC. No matter which server I choose to fly on, when I get a chance, I have an Il2 version for it.
For those that are dead set against the mod, I ask this. Have you used it? The reason that so many servers are switching to the mod these days is because it's so good and so much more fun and immersive with the mod.
There are so many talented people today who have spent a great deal of time making our favorite "game" so much better.
I already mentioned I have a clean install of 4.08M on my PC. When I fly the clean install on a server (say Spits v 109s), I am really missing the great stuff that is included in the latest version of the Unified Installer of the mod. There are some good full switch mod servers out there and WOW, what a difference.
There may be very few people out there who are trying to use this mod specifically to cheat. This is happening is every gaming circle. I feel it is safe to say that it is happening far less here than any other game.

rnzoli
03-13-2009, 10:01 AM
Originally posted by Choctaw111:
it is happening far less here than any other game. Well, the original IL-2 was somewhat special for that, so to compare apples with apples, then the relevant question is whether is it happening much more after the modding started, than before? Some feel yes, some feel no difference at all.

danjama
03-13-2009, 10:09 AM
Originally posted by rnzoli:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Choctaw111:
it is happening far less here than any other game. Well, the original IL-2 was somewhat special for that, so to compare apples with apples, then the relevant question is whether is it happening much more after the modding started, than before? Some feel yes, some feel no difference at all. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I feel the difference will become more drastic as more people learn how to make X plane better or Y plane better. Whatever their favourite is. It only takes a bit of research and tinkering. BUT saying that, these cheaters would probably be noticed and thus banned, by any respectable server admin, because lets face it, we do have a good community in il2. We know this because the majority have been around for years and care.

rnzoli
03-13-2009, 10:43 AM
So can I read into your statement that actually the best way to protect the community from cheaters is to keep on flying online (with or without mod, whatever preferred) and reporting/investigating abuse, instead of retreating into the asylum of offline play (or no play at all)?

Choctaw111
03-13-2009, 10:49 AM
I don't see Il2 being swept away by people who will change the FM and DM at their whim.
The people who come in here and fly Il2, offline and online, are those who really care about this genre. It is also a hobby, but it goes far beyond that. It is a deep respect for those now old men and women that did this for real. Cheaters don't have this mindset.
For those that do cheat in games, it becomes boring and repetitive after a while, and the cheater moves on to another game.

X32Wright
03-13-2009, 11:01 AM
All that said if you guys choose not to use them,well then thats more then fair enough,I don't think better of you for it but I dont think your being silly for it either like I know how some of the pro mod ppl can be.Just dont **** on our parade for our decision.
There are a lot of non mod servers out there so there's heaps to go around.

Nobody is $*$&#&# in you parade! Didn't you read my post? I said I have been avoiding servers that allow MOD and only fly at servers that I know. How does this affect you at all?

For those of use who doesn't like MOD (for various reasons stated above) the MODS affect US more than the MOD users. Because the servers and most of the COOP hosting people are now using mods too MARGINALIZING us in fact. Of course that is also their choice but it affects us more than you mod users.

As for self policing in the community wqell this is nice but VERY annoying and frustrating when this happens in a COOP since you cannot do much until the deed is done. In DF room sure, you can always kick and ban easily.

As I said about it is HARD to TRUST and would always be a question of INTEGRITY and community DIVISION that I blame the modding saga on.

Choctaw111
03-13-2009, 11:46 AM
Originally posted by X32Wright:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">All that said if you guys choose not to use them,well then thats more then fair enough,I don't think better of you for it but I dont think your being silly for it either like I know how some of the pro mod ppl can be.Just dont **** on our parade for our decision.
There are a lot of non mod servers out there so there's heaps to go around.

Nobody is $*$&#&# in you parade! Didn't you read my post? I said I have been avoiding servers that allow MOD and only fly at servers that I know. How does this affect you at all?

For those of use who doesn't like MOD (for various reasons stated above) the MODS affect US more than the MOD users. Because the servers and most of the COOP hosting people are now using mods too MARGINALIZING us in fact. Of course that is also their choice but it affects us more than you mod users.

As for self policing in the community wqell this is nice but VERY annoying and frustrating when this happens in a COOP since you cannot do much until the deed is done. In DF room sure, you can always kick and ban easily.

As I said about it is HARD to TRUST and would always be a question of INTEGRITY and community DIVISION that I blame the modding saga on. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

There is no need to get upset. We either choose to use them or not. We are not accountable to anyone else, mod and vanilla users both.
I already mentioned about why so many servers are starting to use the mod. You say you are starting to feel the restriction as fewer servers are running without the mod. There is a reason why so many servers are switching to the mod.
If you haven't tried the mod then you just don't know the good in it.
Those that are using the mod, have obviously used the unmodded, and can make an educated and learned comparison. The mod is nothing short of amazing.
I fly both the mod and unmodded, and I definitely enjoy the modded version so much more.

danjama
03-13-2009, 11:50 AM
Originally posted by rnzoli:
So can I read into your statement that actually the best way to protect the community from cheaters is to keep on flying online (with or without mod, whatever preferred) and reporting/investigating abuse, instead of retreating into the asylum of offline play (or no play at all)?

yea of course, we have always looked out for each other anyway right? What's changed?

Urufu_Shinjiro
03-13-2009, 12:22 PM
It's always been about self policing people, those of you who have been around long enough aren't fooling anyone with that attitude that implies there wasn't cheating before the mods. We all know there was cheating before the mods, we all know that there have always been more accusations than actual incidents as well. If a pilot or a squad became suspected of cheating somehow, they we no longer welcome most places, that's how it's always been, before the mods and after, no one like a cheater. It's business as usual people, the only difference now is that there is a scapegoat.

X32Wright
03-13-2009, 01:41 PM
If you haven't tried the mod then you just don't know the good in it.

Actually I know the mods quite well since that is allowed 'OFFLINE' in our squad. We also use the mods for making movies for squad participation only.

But for ONLINE dogfights it is FORBIDDEN and not allowed because of the trust/integrity issue.

Choctaw111
03-13-2009, 02:37 PM
Originally posted by X32Wright:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">If you haven't tried the mod then you just don't know the good in it.

Actually I know the mods quite well since that is allowed 'OFFLINE' in our squad. We also use the mods for making movies for squad participation only.

But for ONLINE dogfights it is FORBIDDEN and not allowed because of the trust/integrity issue. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

If I am reading your point correctly, you and your squad are forbidden to use the mod online as you don't want the possibility of being accused of cheating.
Are you talking trust and integrity of others, or others of you? I am not seeing the sense of this.
Are you and your squad so highly trained that flying in any modded server will have some accusing you of "tampering" with the mods? Are you afraid of flying on a modded server and getting blown out of the sky by cheaters? I am sure that you answered "No" to both of these. If so, then what is the big deal?
I have not been on a modded server where there have been accusations. All play I have seen and experienced was fair. If there is a cheater, and I have seen evidence of this in the years past, long before the mod, then they are banned from further play. End of story.
Urufu_Shinjiro is right about the cheating. It has always been around despite the mods, but now that the mods are around, everyone wants to blame unfair play, all because of the mods, when they are shot down. There are always going to be better pilots out there mods or not.

X32Wright
03-13-2009, 03:05 PM
Interesting how you took all my POSTS to be personal. This never was and now you've made this to BE.

I wont respond to your attacks anymore and your ongoing justification for mods. I must have HIT a NERVE.

Urufu_Shinjiro
03-13-2009, 03:10 PM
Originally posted by X32Wright:
Interesting how you took all my POSTS to be personal. This never was and now you've made this to BE.

I wont respond to your attacks anymore and your ongoing justification for mods. I must have HIT a NERVE.

I don't think it was meant to be personal and I think he asked some good questions. I'm curious to know the answers myself.

danjama
03-13-2009, 03:34 PM
I'll speak for Wright here. No of course he isn't afraid of being accused, he is aware that the integrity and trust within the community has been compromised and therefore he cannot be sure that anyone is flying fairly within modded servers.

Urufu_Shinjiro
03-13-2009, 04:43 PM
Originally posted by danjama:
I'll speak for Wright here. No of course he isn't afraid of being accused, he is aware that the integrity and trust within the community has been compromised and therefore he cannot be sure that anyone is flying fairly within modded servers.

So, speaking for yourself here, it's not being afraid of getting accused of cheating but it's being afraid of getting blasted out of the sky by cheaters?

Choctaw111
03-13-2009, 04:45 PM
Originally posted by X32Wright:
Interesting how you took all my POSTS to be personal. This never was and now you've made this to BE.

I wont respond to your attacks anymore and your ongoing justification for mods. I must have HIT a NERVE.

I am not taking anything personally. I have already stated that flying with or without the mods is personal choice.
To say that your squad is forbidden to fly on a modded server is what doesn't make any sense to me. Is is that you cannot take the chance of possibly flying on the same server as someone who is cheating? What is the worst thing that can happen?
The thought that someone could or might be cheating creates a mandate that you can not fly on that server? There could be someone cheating on ANY server, modded or not.
Eventually most, if not all of the servers will convert to the mod. Maybe a select few will remain unmodded. Unless your squad changes its policy, what will you do then?

To reply to Danjama's post, I ask this question.
If I fly on a modded server and during my time on that server, it is realized that there is someone cheating, what happens to me? Is my reputation somehow tarnished? I do remember several times, even before the mod, that the server message comes up "Cheating has been detected". Even now when this message appears while I am on the server, no one accuses another of cheating.
Now what happens if I fly on the same server and the "Cheating has been detected" message does NOT appear. Does it makes any difference?

In closing I have this to say.
If you cannot fly on a modded server because integrity and trust have been compromised in the community, why even post in this forum? It is the same community. We share the servers on Hyperlobby and we share this forum. If we can post together, we can fly together.

danjama
03-13-2009, 04:51 PM
Originally posted by Urufu_Shinjiro:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by danjama:
I'll speak for Wright here. No of course he isn't afraid of being accused, he is aware that the integrity and trust within the community has been compromised and therefore he cannot be sure that anyone is flying fairly within modded servers.

So, speaking for yourself here, it's not being afraid of getting accused of cheating but it's being afraid of getting blasted out of the sky by cheaters? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yep. But if i was speaking for myself i'm not forbidden to fly on these servers and i do fly on them, without mods...

@Choctaw

Do you think there are cheaters here on these forums?

slipBall
03-13-2009, 05:03 PM
"These people do not realize what they did to the on-line community" not sure if its word for word but it was Olegs feeling's on the matter...as for me, nobody should go around opening and fiddleing around in our sim, end of story.

Choctaw111
03-13-2009, 05:16 PM
Originally posted by danjama:


@Choctaw

Do you think there are cheaters here on these forums?

I would hope not, but with the way that some people go on about how cheating is more common than ever, where exactly do these "cheaters" hang out?
How many people fly on HL that are NOT registered here at this forum?
Il2 doesn't come with HL. The virtual pilot finds out about HL somehow. Probably here.
I don't think that cheating is any more common now then it was years ago. We have an overall good community here.

Choctaw111
03-13-2009, 05:22 PM
Originally posted by slipBall:
"These people do not realize what they did to the on-line community" not sure if its word for word but it was Olegs feeling's on the matter...as for me, nobody should go around opening and fiddleing around in our sim, end of story.

I remember this. I do agree that for so long the sim was kept "locked down" and it was good. Now the mods are here and Oleg has moved on to another sim. Will the mods go away? The overall quality of the mods (some are not so good, but most are) will ensure that the mods will be around indefinitely. These mods are made to enhance the sim in a good way, not to "hack" the sim.
In fact, "Triple A" only allows mods that attempt to make the sim more realistc. Any mods deemed as "cheats" or modifications of FM, DM or even WM are not allowed.

Bearcat99
03-13-2009, 06:38 PM
Originally posted by rnzoli:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Choctaw111:
it is happening far less here than any other game. Well, the original IL-2 was somewhat special for that, so to compare apples with apples, then the relevant question is whether is it happening much more after the modding started, than before? Some feel yes, some feel no difference at all. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

There is only one answer to that question in all honesty.

That answer is yes it has to be happening more now.

How much more ... I can't say... but to think that there would be less cheating.. now after the possibility of cheating was far more real than at any time in the sim's life.. is not being realistic.


Originally posted by danjama:
I'll speak for Wright here. No of course he isn't afraid of being accused, he is aware that the integrity and trust within the community has been compromised and therefore he cannot be sure that anyone is flying fairly within modded servers.

That is a fact... and that was the case from the moment the mods and the ability to mod was Promethiesquely spread to the IL2 community.

It is what it is...

One thing many newcomers do not fully understand is what this has done to this community.. the shock that it was... and how long it took so many of us to get where we are in this sim. When you see a guy who just got the sim 2 weeks ago.. and is now a hotshot... well you cant help but be suspect... perhaps without cause in reality.. but the sim itself is not a sit on down and become an ace in a day sim... and many newcomers.. because they cannot appreciate the process will be more than willing to jump on tweaked ships... and because they come from a culture where that was the norm.. they may see nothing wrong with it..

It is what it is.. it is up to us to keep the standards high....

Choctaw111
03-13-2009, 06:48 PM
You make some very good points BC.
There are things you have mentioned here that I hadn't really thought of regarding the newcomers and such. I remember the frustration, when this sim was new, of learning it, and it took a VERY long time to become what I consider proficient.
I also hear what you are and others are saying about cheating being more prevalent now than ever. Whether true or not, I don't want to believe it.
It's just that when I fly on a modded server, I don't find myself asking how many in the server are flying with "tweaked" files.

danjama
03-13-2009, 07:04 PM
We can just hope these "newcomers" wont go looking for performance enhancing mods....after all, we thrive on the fact that we are all serious ww2 buffs, and mature enough to appreciate the sacrifices of the period....let's just hope these are the people the sim will still attract.

Bearcat99
03-13-2009, 09:29 PM
Just because it is more prevalent doesn't mean it is widespread.. just more than before.. It's almost like more traffic fatalities with bigger areas that have higher speed limits..

McHilt
03-14-2009, 02:56 AM
Originally posted by X32Wright:

Actually I know the mods quite well since that is allowed 'OFFLINE' in our squad. We also use the mods for making movies for squad participation only.

But for ONLINE dogfights it is FORBIDDEN and not allowed because of the trust/integrity issue.

Totally agree, I know the mods well too so we do know what we're talking about...

But hey, from reading all these comments:
it's an endless and clueless discussion...
a pity to notice this mod thing has obviously damaged the community itself.

as for me: I don't trust anybody at all, neither in RL let alone in an online dogfight WITH mods... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Bearcat99
03-14-2009, 08:39 AM
I don't think the damage is as bad as some think... I think a lot of what happens in the future depends on the standards we set today.. Thats why when all this first jumped off I advocated deaking with it and establishing a defacto policy of behavior.. which to some extent is what we have done... AAA is just one of many mod sites out there.. it is probably the most visible... and that is because of the satnce they took....

rnzoli
03-14-2009, 08:52 AM
Originally posted by McHilt:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by X32Wright:
But for ONLINE dogfights it is FORBIDDEN and not allowed because of the trust/integrity issue.

as for me: I don't trust anybody at all, neither in RL let alone in an online dogfight WITH mods... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
For whatever its worth, here is how some very competitive squadrons handled the issue. They did not trust mods either, but they were interested in a fair fight, over new maps. So they were actually able to resolve the trust/integrity questions this way:

- the used a common modpack (History SFX)
- the pack was developed by a person know for his 110% historical orientation http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif
- the pack updates were always clear on what is included and why
- the pack updates were always possible to download in advance of the flight nights, so people on both sides could do verifications on any aspect (own aircraft, enemy aircraft)
- as a result of discussions around the pack together, there were several features available in the pack for offline play, such as 6DOF (too few with TIRs) or advanced engine management (too little known yet)
- the servers had those features disabled and set to CRT=2, which prevented joining with wrong pack version or features granted for offline play only
- and finally, the squadron commanders were put as ultimately responsible for they squad members not using CRT=2 "workarounds".

The campaign was tense as usual, with debates on rules, on small exploits (like the new mod feature that gives you externals after death/crash), questions/issues with the campaign engine (SEOW). There were debates even internally on Allied/Axis sides, commanders replaced/resiged etc, all the whole "mess" that comes with a realistic multi-sector SEOW campaign http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

But to my knowledge, not a single accusation of mod-related cheating happened! So the above approach to the trust/integrity issue stood the test well.

On a related note, many of the pilots in the campaign are still not willing to join servers with unknown modpacks or CRT=0 settings. Many of them still has got the clean v4.08 version on their PCs too.

So the moral of the story - they didn't change their opinions on the mods, but they found a way to used them in a trustworthy/integrated environment, online.

Bearcat99
03-14-2009, 08:56 AM
Originally posted by danjama:
Do you think there are cheaters here on these forums?

I know it was directed @ Choctaw.. but I do.. I dont think there area lot.. but I do think there are some here..


Originally posted by Copperhead311th:
Which is one of the reasons i've been so opsed to it out side of the obvious pandora's box that's been opened. it just seems to me that the attidude was take " To Hell with Oleg we don't need you any more, thanks for everything O-man....oh and here's you EULA back...sorry we ran short of toilet paper..it's a little messy.

We got here by some ppls desire to curcomvent fair play becuse they may have thought this was or that was wrong and that it should be changed (190 cockpit bar for example) or that there was no way a BF-109 should loose to a p-40, or some other scewed sence of prospective. Or it could have just been the over all "we want it all and we want it all NOW attidude.

What ever it was it's done now, for good or for bad we're stuck with it. Even those of us who respect Oleg and understood that you could win in the sim by skill and that to fly the sim as it was and win was a challenge in it's self. Everyone, with the exception of hardware was on even footing. Now that is gone for good. So those of us who did not or don't wish to follow the same path as those who were miscontent with the sim as it was are forced to make choices. Choices that in all fairness, have been forced upon us by those in the comunity that chose the easy road. A road we would not have had to choose to take or not had things stayed with the status quo.

This rose bush has many thorns. far more now than it used to. It isn't just about fair play, or a missguiieded attempt to improve some thing that to many was perfectly fine as it was, nor is it about the ownership rights. It's a miiriad of issues and amazingly some of us cannot see past this being a simple flight sim, or thier own noses to see those issues for what they truly are. LIFE issues. Charecter issues. ect ect.

I still think that most of the guys who mod just want to make the sim better... I don't know any of them well enough to make such a judgment call on their character... but I dont think that gaining an unfair adbvantage was at the top of the list.. Just look at most of the mods tat exist.. most of them are either function oriented or visual oriented..

K_Freddie
03-14-2009, 10:19 AM
Originally posted by rnzoli:
The interesting thing is that no such drop is visible on HL at all. I can still see the weekend peaks at 900+, like 2-3 years ago.

What may not be so visible is change of players, many left, many came.
Also not 'recorded' is why people have left - many reasons!!.
About a year ago there was a great increase in new players. If HL numbers are the same, has IL2 lost as many 'veteran' players.

I for one have gone off online play due a few reasons, and the 'cheat' possibilities, and will probably only come back with BOB:SOW.
I'll certainly try the mods offline, but online has lost my interest, due to the reasons previously given.
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

Swivet
03-14-2009, 10:34 AM
I for one have gone off online play due a few reasons, and the 'cheat' possibilities, and will probably only come back with BOB:SOW.
I'll certainly try the mods offline, but online has lost my interest, due to the reasons previously given.
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

+1

I'm starting to feel the same way...You know that HL will oneday be filled with cheats, the way how fast all these new mods are being released, then we'll all be running private passworded games with only people we know and trust. I can live with that. But all this hype about "mods" and you end up reverting back to "vanilla" in the end http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/shady.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

McHilt
03-14-2009, 11:12 AM
+1

I'm starting to feel the same way...You know that HL will oneday be filled with cheats, the way how fast all these new mods are being released, then we'll all be running private passworded games with only people we know and trust. I can live with that. But all this hype about "mods" and you end up reverting back to "vanilla" in the end http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/shady.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

+3
... which was the reason I started this thread
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif
so now we're back at the start of this issue we can pass on to our lives and just forget about it all... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
Happy flying to everybody!

Bearcat99
03-14-2009, 11:26 AM
Well to me it is all silly.. because you don't know who has what.. Enjoy the sim and dont worry about the rest.. but hey thats just me.

slipBall
03-14-2009, 04:24 PM
I don't know, look at the rumor's circulating about ROF, maybe SOW will take that same route. I think that nowbody should accept those who hack our favorite sim's. Some of the mod's may be cool, but just look at the price that we will all pay for our future games...it don't make any sence to me, having to wonder when on-line that is. If its a locked game leave it that way, keep your hands off of it. Or don't cry at the future anti pirate measures that we know are coming

Bearcat99
03-14-2009, 05:03 PM
Oh I agree.... Look man.... if I had to choose between the former security we had and the perks of the new mods... I'd take the security any day... I mean who knows... perhaps after SoW was done much of what is in the mods would have been made accessable.. with the core FDW files stil heavily encrypted.... but that isn't what we now have.. and all that changed the moment the sim was hacked. It will never be undone... even if Oleg had come out with a more definitive statement other than "I hare anything that could ruin online play.." (paraphrased version of what he said..) there would have been I believe less acceptance of the mods... but the facts would still be the same and I cant help but think that as uncdertain as some things may be in some respects.. it could be a lot worse.

I don't know how all this will eventually pan out... maybe as the old timers move on and new blood comes in the uniqueness that was IL2 will fade and people will care less and maybve even look back at archives from these boards and ask what the hubub was all about... but as long as those who say with their mouths that they care about the sim and it's future stick with it... I dunno... maybe the silver lining will still be there a few years from now.

I understand people not wanting to be subjected to cheating.. but IMO to totally bandon the sim because you think it is ruined by mods is just.... silly. This sim still rocks and online play is still great .. at least for me.

Choctaw111
03-14-2009, 05:54 PM
Originally posted by slipBall:
I don't know, look at the rumor's circulating about ROF, maybe SOW will take that same route. I think that nowbody should accept those who hack our favorite sim's. Some of the mod's may be cool, but just look at the price that we will all pay for our future games...it don't make any sence to me, having to wonder when on-line that is. If its a locked game leave it that way, keep your hands off of it. Or don't cry at the future anti pirate measures that we know are coming

I give Oleg more credit than this. I am sure he is aware of the route that RoF is taking, and how "not good" it is for the sim. Oleg knows that MOST of the players he has had for Il2 were "offliners". He won't shoot his new baby in the foot. Not in a million years. He want's SoW to be as popular as can be. That means making SoW available to everyone short of those still running a Pentium3.

Dean_Clean
03-14-2009, 11:11 PM
The mods were the final nail in the coffin. Haven't played in years. Occasionally I check this forum to see if the stupidity has let up. When I see the amount of work that it would take to get back up to speed, it is very easy to say "the hell with it."

danjama
03-15-2009, 04:52 AM
Originally posted by Dean_Clean:
The mods were the final nail in the coffin. Haven't played in years. Occasionally I check this forum to see if the stupidity has let up. When I see the amount of work that it would take to get back up to speed, it is very easy to say "the hell with it."

If you havn't played in years, then how much water does your opinion really hold, concerning the "final nail in the coffin"? It's your choice not to play, but there's still thousands that do. If you really was interested at all, you could play offline on any version you like, from Il2 Sturmovik 1.0b to 405m. You don't have to update.

slipBall
03-15-2009, 03:30 PM
Originally posted by Choctaw111:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by slipBall:
I don't know, look at the rumor's circulating about ROF, maybe SOW will take that same route. I think that nowbody should accept those who hack our favorite sim's. Some of the mod's may be cool, but just look at the price that we will all pay for our future games...it don't make any sence to me, having to wonder when on-line that is. If its a locked game leave it that way, keep your hands off of it. Or don't cry at the future anti pirate measures that we know are coming

I give Oleg more credit than this. I am sure he is aware of the route that RoF is taking, and how "not good" it is for the sim. Oleg knows that MOST of the players he has had for Il2 were "offliners". He won't shoot his new baby in the foot. Not in a million years. He want's SoW to be as popular as can be. That means making SoW available to everyone short of those still running a Pentium3. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>



Maybe you are right, anyway I sure hope so. 1C is the publisher for ROF so they will see first hand it's popularity or lack there of (it may be Black Shark that I'm thinking of). I really do not like the idea of having to be on-line all of the time, but on the other hand I really want the developer's of sims to stay in business for the future...will be very interesting for sure

WTE_Galway
03-15-2009, 05:06 PM
Originally posted by danjama:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Dean_Clean:
The mods were the final nail in the coffin. Haven't played in years. Occasionally I check this forum to see if the stupidity has let up. When I see the amount of work that it would take to get back up to speed, it is very easy to say "the hell with it."

If you havn't played in years, then how much water does your opinion really hold, concerning the "final nail in the coffin"? It's your choice not to play, but there's still thousands that do. If you really was interested at all, you could play offline on any version you like, from Il2 Sturmovik 1.0b to 405m. You don't have to update. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have had no interest in playing online since the code was cracked and the mods came out.

Now my opinion is if people want to play with mods or on hacked servers that is there personal choice and good luck to them - but I choose not to.

Still if you are saying only those of us who CHOOSE to play on modded servers are allowed to express opinions on the mods you are creating a very biased sample.

Bearcat99
03-15-2009, 07:48 PM
I understand folks who dont wasnt to use mods.. but what I do not understand is why a person would just drop online play because of the mods.. To me that6 is silly.. and as for Dean's remarks..

When I see the amount of work that it would take to get back up to speed, it is very easy to say "the hell with it."

well to each his own.. it isn't a lot of work. In fact getting up to speed in 1946 is less involved than any incarnation of FB. You get 46.. patch it to 4.08 then patch it to 4.09 and you are done.. If you want mods they are there.. but it is nothing like getting mods for CFS.. and if you dont want them then there is nothing stopping you from flying on line.

It kills me how so many people whop apparently know little about the mods at all.. insist on not fling on modded servers... so they never find out what the deal is. Most of the mods that I know of are enhancements.. things like maps and features that make the sim better. And here's the kicker These folks decide to not fly online because of the mods... and in reality.. if you aren't flying online because of the mods... when the whole offline experience has been greatly enhanced by the same mods that are keeping some folks out of the sim. People think that these mods are all FDW mods or that they give flyers unfair advantages... and while I am sure those kinds of mods do exist.. every single time I got waxed online of late and thought to myself "Is this guy modded...? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/shady.gif "

LMAO!! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

The message says "99th_Bearcat looses the fight to an AI plane.. "

I am not trying to convert anyone to the mods for this sim.. but in defense of the modd community here I have to ask... What makes some of you think that overnight the same crowd that has been around for years would settle for mediocrity... ? Sure... some of the mods are not that great.. and I don't use those mods... but there are enough good, solid, immersion enhancing mods out there for this sim... that for me just make it all better... and the fact that I still DO NOT see widespread shenanigans online and that the mods are here.. whether we like it or not... I'll be d@mned if I am going to let the thousands I have invested in enjoying this GREAT SIM over the past 7 years go down the drain... because someone might shoot me down who is using a hacked plane.. with an unfair advantage.. To me that is just..... silly. I am going to enjoy this sim while I can... hell I might be sitting on a call tomorrow and have a 757 come flying into the building I am working in.. This sim is great... and I intend to enjoy it and the company of the dozens of friends I have made over the past 7 years while I can..... y'all can do what you want to....

ElAurens
03-15-2009, 07:56 PM
I've been trying to decide how to respond in this thread, as one who started as a fairly outspoken anti modder, to one who now uses them. I can only give my perspective, based on my knowledge of the game and how I play it.

Here goes... And please, I mean no offense to anyone on either side of the issue.

When I first tried the mods I was anxious to fly the many aircraft that were AI only that otherwise were some of my favorite types. That was the draw for me. And as someone who likes making DF missions it has opened new vistas, both in terms of aircraft types and geographic variety. These are the good things about the modded game.

But like they say, every silver lining has a dark cloud around it. And that dark cloud takes two forms in our case.

The first dark cloud is, in a word, quality, or rather, the lack thereof. The mods were, and are still, being pumped out at a break neck pace (with a couple of very good exceptions), which left no time or structure for quality checking. So by and large we have a bunch of rather mediocre additional maps and some truly horrid flyable AI aircraft with unbelievable FMs. (Roll rate of TBM come to mind? ) The Slovakia map has set new standards, that have only been approached by The Slot, and the 352nd's upcoming European map. So here we in many ways have a net loss. Sure we have more stuff, but is more stuff of lower quality a good thing? I'm not so sure. This could have been avoided if, in the early days, all mods would have to go through a QC check before being put up for DL. Too late now.

The second dark cloud is the more sinister, the prospect, and reality, of cheating.

Gentlemen, it happens. And it happens far more than anyone here cares to admit to. It happens in online wars, on standard DF servers and in cooperative play as well. And there is no way to stop it. None. It's why AAA is so strict about weapons modeling and FM mods, but it doesn't matter because it's out there, and there is no putting the Jeannie back in the bottle at this point.

Now having said all this doesn't mean I'm uninstalling the game tonight. Far from it. I still get lot's of enjoyment from this old war horse. And I intend to continue with IL2 till the day I get my copy of SOW.

Realistically there is nothing any of us can do to change anyone's mind at this point. So instead of all the name calling, and moral posturing, why don't we all just enjoy IL2 in the manner we see fit, and hope for a timely release of SOW, that will put a stake in the heart of this monster that we have created.

Carry on.

S!

Choctaw111
03-15-2009, 09:34 PM
ElAurens, that is well said, however the life of Il2 will endure long after SoW is released.

I_KG100_Prien
03-16-2009, 12:33 AM
Latecomer..

Not a whole lot to say that hasn't been said. I read all 9 pages so far so I'm going to try to keep my re-hashing to a minimum.

I'm a mod fan. I've enjoyed the improved audio and visual aesthetics. I've enjoyed a couple of the add on aircraft... so on, so forth and all. I have some other sentiments that may be contradictory to what I just said. Out of respect of the request set forth by the Mods I'll say no more on that. It's just a case of acceptance and trying it before knocking it to hard.

Cheaters? Who cares. As long as you play clean it doesn't matter really. +105245244.999PIsquared to others statements on how to deal with them. Lashing out on the forum isn't going to make them go away anyway. Painting everyone with the same broad brush thanks to a few is silly.

The Software Advantage v Hardware Advantage. They aren't the same. They are advantages yes, but in the case of hardware, as was said.. You can go to the store and buy the same stuff if you have the money. Barring having the money you do the next best thing- you become as efficient at using the tools you have available as humanly possible.

Overcoming a software advantage.. Can be a wee bit more difficult if you can even do it at all. There is a reason hard core cheats like to use software. They can program it to do give them whatever edge they want.

Anywho.. I'll get my hat and wander off.

Bearcat99
03-16-2009, 06:22 AM
ey El you forgot about the IAG map... and Cannon's UK map..

One thing that (Well there are a few things.. but this i one of my biggest problems with the mods in general) is very disturbing to me is.. We all know how difficult this sim is to get down right... before the mods you had no choice but to learn to fly the thing.. and I guarantee that everyone here can testify to the fact that no matter how porked you may think any one FM is in this sim, flying that aircraft got easier and better with practice and stick tweaking... Now with these mods.. some may feel that they dont need to do that.. they may feel that "the FM is wrong " and they are going to fix it... not knowing how this sim is. Compared to this sim just about any other WWII sim is borderline ardcade if not out right..... and a lot of people dont understand that. I have guys in my squad right now who tried out the sim and thought it was a bad sim because they couldn't get off the ground.

ElAurens
03-16-2009, 10:35 AM
Bearcat, this is not the place for map criticism, but as someone who has tried to make something of all the new maps, I stand by my words.

Just because they are pretty from Angels 20 doesn't mean they work from a mission builder's standpoint.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

slipBall
03-16-2009, 04:16 PM
Originally posted by Bearcat99:
ey El you forgot about the IAG map... and Cannon's UK map..

One thing that (Well there are a few things.. but this i one of my biggest problems with the mods in general) is very disturbing to me is.. We all know how difficult this sim is to get down right... before the mods you had no choice but to learn to fly the thing.. and I guarantee that everyone here can testify to the fact that no matter how porked you may think any one FM is in this sim, flying that aircraft got easier and better with practice and stick tweaking... Now with these mods.. some may feel that they dont need to do that.. they may feel that "the FM is wrong " and they are going to fix it... not knowing how this sim is. Compared to this sim just about any other WWII sim is borderline ardcade if not out right..... and a lot of people dont understand that. I have guys in my squad right now who tried out the sim and thought it was a bad sim because they couldn't get off the ground.


Sadly I agree, I think this will just add another nail to Il-2...many will miss out on a wonderfull challenging learning curve, of which I have many fond memories

Dean_Clean
03-16-2009, 10:07 PM
I will clarify my previous post. I played almost exclusively online for years, mostly with the TGD guys. After Greatergreen went away, I puttered around for awhile on other servers. Due to an illness in the family, I quit playing for a year or so. I kept up with updates, including '46. When I decided to try and start playing again, the community had turned into the wild west. It was very frustrating, considering the amount of money and time I had invested in the sim. The prospect of going from GG, where most people flying were regulars, to the wild west, where trust is thrown out the window, holds no appeal. Neither does flying offline. To say my opinion holds little or no water based on the fact I have been away for awhile and have little interest in the mods is affirmation to me that the inmates are running the asylum. I've done my time learning the game, both as a pretty good mud-mover, and as a team player. The fact that I still check back proves that I have hope. Maybe someone could suggest a place to fly that would cure my "hell with it" attitude.

X32Wright
03-17-2009, 12:46 AM
Sorry not gonna happen because the very reason for CRT=2 existence was to keep out cheating and the MODS now implement CRT=2. Kind of like wolves guarding the sheep so to speak.

rnzoli
03-17-2009, 03:02 AM
the MODS now implement CRT=2 Maybe you refer to "implementing CRT=2 compliance". In that case, it is still Oleg's anti-cheat protection which guards the (uniformly modded) sheep, so to speak.

I am not sure if everyone knows, but CRT=2 doesn't check whether the players files match the original version, it was designed by Oleg's team in a different way. CRT=2 compares whether the server and client has same FM/DM/Weapons parameters. So if the server is modded, and CRT=2 is turned on the server side, it will only allow players flying with exactly the same mod-set in their RAM (not on the disk!). For this reason, some mods making very large changes in the orginal code, upset the memory allocation too much, and caused the failure of the CRT=2 test all the time. In order to allow CRT=2 to be set, the mods themselves have to follow certain guidelines in their design.

danjama
03-17-2009, 10:25 AM
Originally posted by Dean_Clean:
I will clarify my previous post. I played almost exclusively online for years, mostly with the TGD guys. After Greatergreen went away, I puttered around for awhile on other servers. Due to an illness in the family, I quit playing for a year or so. I kept up with updates, including '46. When I decided to try and start playing again, the community had turned into the wild west. It was very frustrating, considering the amount of money and time I had invested in the sim. The prospect of going from GG, where most people flying were regulars, to the wild west, where trust is thrown out the window, holds no appeal. Neither does flying offline. To say my opinion holds little or no water based on the fact I have been away for awhile and have little interest in the mods is affirmation to me that the inmates are running the asylum. I've done my time learning the game, both as a pretty good mud-mover, and as a team player. The fact that I still check back proves that I have hope. Maybe someone could suggest a place to fly that would cure my "hell with it" attitude.

Well i didnt mean any offence with that comment mate. I just think you should give it more of a chance especially after being away. Of course you feel like your looking in from the outside because you havn't been involved in any regular way. If the interest is there, get stuck in again! Maybe join a squad or even come fly with me, i'm ALWAYS looking for a wingman and also enjoy mudmoving. What time zone do you fly?

WTE_Galway
03-18-2009, 05:32 PM
Originally posted by slipBall:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bearcat99:
ey El you forgot about the IAG map... and Cannon's UK map..

One thing that (Well there are a few things.. but this i one of my biggest problems with the mods in general) is very disturbing to me is.. We all know how difficult this sim is to get down right... before the mods you had no choice but to learn to fly the thing.. and I guarantee that everyone here can testify to the fact that no matter how porked you may think any one FM is in this sim, flying that aircraft got easier and better with practice and stick tweaking... Now with these mods.. some may feel that they dont need to do that.. they may feel that "the FM is wrong " and they are going to fix it... not knowing how this sim is. Compared to this sim just about any other WWII sim is borderline ardcade if not out right..... and a lot of people dont understand that. I have guys in my squad right now who tried out the sim and thought it was a bad sim because they couldn't get off the ground.


Sadly I agree, I think this will just add another nail to Il-2...many will miss out on a wonderfull challenging learning curve, of which I have many fond memories </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Actually ... most of the market for this sim is offline play and to be honest not one of the offline IL2 players I know has even heard of the mods or AAA or even this forum.

The mods may have had a profound effect on the online community but the vast majority of users have never heard of them.

baronWastelan
03-18-2009, 11:18 PM
Originally posted by WTE_Galway:

Actually ... most of the market for this sim is offline play and to be honest not one of the offline IL2 players I know has even heard of the mods or AAA or even this forum.

The mods may have had a profound effect on the online community but the vast majority of users have never heard of them.

That's very interesting. What's your best guess of total # of Il-2 installs in use in 2009?

WTE_Galway
03-19-2009, 04:47 PM
Originally posted by baronWastelan:

That's very interesting. What's your best guess of total # of Il-2 installs in use in 2009?


I recall reading somewhere the official sales according to 1C for all IL2 products was something like 600,000 units.

Now many long term players own multiple versions and clearly some people no longer play.

It would be impossible to put a figure on current players but if I was guessing I would punt at about 5,000 maximum online and another 100,000 offline.

Oleg himself in an interview about SOW recently stated the offline market is what actually paid the bills for IL2.

Keeping the online community active and happy is important for sales and marketing PR but the actual percentage of users that play online is apparently quite small.

DKoor
03-19-2009, 05:04 PM
Originally posted by Choctaw111:
ElAurens, that is well said, however the life of Il2 will endure long after SoW is released. Yes, I reckon that too.
IL-2 will really live right until that moment when something better gets out that deals with same thing and by that I mean same scenarios, same planes etc.

Where else you can fly I-16, LaGG-3, Ki-27etc, on such places like Slovakia, Hungary, Manchuria... and that it also at the same time looks like a decent game (judging by standards of a modern game).

baronWastelan
03-19-2009, 09:08 PM
Originally posted by WTE_Galway:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by baronWastelan:

That's very interesting. What's your best guess of total # of Il-2 installs in use in 2009?


I recall reading somewhere the official sales according to 1C for all IL2 products was something like 600,000 units.

Now many long term players own multiple versions and clearly some people no longer play.

It would be impossible to put a figure on current players but if I was guessing I would punt at about 5,000 maximum online and another 100,000 offline.

Oleg himself in an interview about SOW recently stated the offline market is what actually paid the bills for IL2.

Keeping the online community active and happy is important for sales and marketing PR but the actual percentage of users that play online is apparently quite small. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Those are rather disappointing numbers -- but thanks for the info!

WTE_Galway
03-19-2009, 10:43 PM
Originally posted by baronWastelan:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by WTE_Galway:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by baronWastelan:

That's very interesting. What's your best guess of total # of Il-2 installs in use in 2009?


I recall reading somewhere the official sales according to 1C for all IL2 products was something like 600,000 units.

Now many long term players own multiple versions and clearly some people no longer play.

It would be impossible to put a figure on current players but if I was guessing I would punt at about 5,000 maximum online and another 100,000 offline.

Oleg himself in an interview about SOW recently stated the offline market is what actually paid the bills for IL2.

Keeping the online community active and happy is important for sales and marketing PR but the actual percentage of users that play online is apparently quite small. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Those are rather disappointing numbers -- but thanks for the info! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Its not WoW or The Sims.

Also 600,000 sales at an average of say $30 US a copy is still $18,000,000 USD turnover. Quite respectable.

rnzoli
03-20-2009, 03:43 AM
Originally posted by WTE_Galway:
It would be impossible to put a figure on current players but if I was guessing I would punt at about 5,000 maximum online and another 100,000 offline.
I think you are way off with that guess, or the definitions are too vague.

First problem; who do you recon a "player"? Someone who is playing right now, or in a given moment, or someone who played at least 1 hour this week, or this month? An average or peak figure? I think there are about 2000-3000 people online in peak periods every week, but I doubt there are also 100.000 people playing offline at the same time! Perhaps 5.000 at maximum, especially that offline is more spread, no "peaking" effect seen like online.

Second problem: 600.000 titles in all variants great, but I personally bought 5 of them (FB, AEP,PF, Pe2, and '46), and I only use '46. Same with many of us, since the core audience is a narrow interest area. So the number of dumped copies can be as much as 60-80% of the total, meaning that the really usable copies are down to 100-150k total, together with newcomers, illegal copies, old copies passed to friends etc. From this comes down people stopping to play, lost interest, no time due to RL changes, so maybe the number people who fired up IL-2 at least once during this month can be as low as 20.000.


Oleg himself in an interview about SOW recently stated the offline market is what actually paid the bills for IL2.

Keeping the online community active and happy is important for sales and marketing PR but the actual percentage of users that play online is apparently quite small.
Apparently not. It is fair to say that the bill was paid together by offline and online players together. If is also fair to state that offline players contributed to it much more, but at the same time, this was partly the result of online play doing the indispensable advertising/PR/awareness vs. competitors etc.

My point is that these estimates are great fun, but the point of offline power vs. online power is wrong, Il-2 would have been dead without either of them.

WOODY01
03-20-2009, 05:53 AM
The Flying Kiwis dont use 4.08 any more, but we do use 4.09b, unmodded, and we are growing steadily if not rapidly.

We have members that use the mods in there own time and good luck to them, but for our weekend gatherings on The Flying Kiwis server (no its not on hyperlobby) it is stock 4.09b.

I have no problem with the mods personally but I havent got time to look at them, I think I am an oldschool type of guy that likes to see things regulated, with the mods I see no real regulation. So it to me is sort of taking on its own direction, un goverened so I dont really want to be involved sorry.

Way down in New Zealand we are on a very diffacult timezone to interact with other squads so we have to drive our own destiny and we are lucky that we have 4.09b to make a stack of content off and its really working for us.

Going modded I cant see it happining, I trust Olegs track record much more than I trust modders 'ideals.

I say that because I recently did a comparision between flying in Olegs P51D 20 NA and a real P51D 30 NA and found the sim to be potently smack on. People tinkering as will happen turns me right off.

But we are going great guns, if you are looking for an unmodded server come join us in the evenings New Zealand time on The Flying Kiwis server.

Good luck to both partys but we will be staying mod free on official TFK nights.

Friendly_flyer
07-24-2009, 01:53 AM
Originally posted by Dean_Clean:
I've done my time learning the game, both as a pretty good mud-mover, and as a team player. The fact that I still check back proves that I have hope. Maybe someone could suggest a place to fly that would cure my "hell with it" attitude.

I say join a squadron, mate. Most of the bad aspects of modding goes away when you can fly with a bunch of decent, honourable guys (and occasional girls).

Odie1974
07-24-2009, 09:38 AM
Personally I am using mods - for offline play.
However I am installing only those that enhance the game for me - so it's the "ambience" mods (maps, graphics, cockpits, sounds, effects etc).

I do stay away from mods that proclaim to change the FM/DM or add new aircraft - I see no need for them as I am not qualified to say if an aircraft flies correctly or not in vanilla. And with the multitude of planes already in the game I do not see the need to have more http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

If (when) I finally go online I would prefer to be able to play the modded game (to the extend described above), but if I the server imposes plain 4.08/09 version - that's also fine, as long as the gameplay is good http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

idonno
07-24-2009, 10:22 AM
Originally posted by McHilt:
The last time I played IL-2 1946 I had a whole bunch of mods installed and at first I loved it a lot. However the more I played the more often I came to the conclusion it was all a wicked thing to me, no more original IL-2 feeling. A short time later I would ditch the complete sim, including all features installed... The mods had killed it for me!

Of course after half a year I started to miss the flying and I reinstalled the sim and I can't emphasize how fresh it looked at first launch. I hadn't had that feeling for at least one and a half year.
And I tell you nothing beats the feel of the original IL-2 experience. Yeah I know the engine sounds are not 'right', the guns do not sound 'proper', no 6 DOF and so on, hell... the original IL-2 feel is something special (in fact that's the reason I started to play this sim back in 2004) and from now on I'm going to play straight from the box + 4.08m... no more mods to me. It's a delight and honour to me to fly this sim clean as it was meant to be by Oleg and crew. Despite all the hard work done by modders I hope many more will do this game justice again.

I can't relate to a single word of this. This is like saying fire is cold and ice is hot. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

All I can figure is it's some kind of strange code for Mods Rule! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif