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Kocur_
09-14-2007, 03:06 AM
I hope I'm not reposting:
http://home.comcast.net/~clipper-108/AIAAPaper2005-119.pdf (http://home.comcast.net/%7Eclipper-108/AIAAPaper2005-119.pdf) .

Waldo.Pepper
09-14-2007, 03:21 AM
Excellent report. I am beginning to fear that KOTS (if accurate rather than Flyboys the game) may turn out to be quite dull.

M_Gunz
09-14-2007, 04:22 AM
Anything but!

They were and the replicas still are slower but the combat distances were much shorter.

I might suggest you watch next time AMC or another channel shows Hell's Angels just for
the flying and combat scenes. Every plane in that film -is- the real article from WWI
acquired at the end of the war by Howard Hughes. Want to see REAL SE5's fly against
REAL Fokker DVII's? It's there. OTOH, the Zeppelin is a fake but a well done fake.

EDIT:ADD
After a semi-quick scan... wow they give us tools, methods, what have you and Waldo man!
LOOK at the turn times shown for 1918! Sopwith Snipe at almost 80 DEGREES PER SECOND.
Guess what? Fokker DrI could beat that in a non-banked skidding turn that would get you
killed in these WWII planes, but it took an expert to do it. The WORST turning plane on
that chart is a monoplane with over 68 degrees per second flat turn.

Boring? Try faster, hairier and scarier than the best amusement park ride, with bullets.

x6BL_Brando
09-14-2007, 05:12 AM
The climb to altitude is the part that will be difficult to reconcile in an arena that demonstrated the advantages of altitude at the commencement of a dogfight. Although the absolute ceiling is much less than WW2, it still took these birds up to half an hour to reach it. I think there will be a lot of air-starts if KotS makes it to the on-line stage, or it will end up being played at sub-one thousand feet like the worst of TnB dogfight servers.

While getting to it may be a drag, actual combat should be anything but boring.

B

STENKA_69.GIAP
09-14-2007, 06:22 AM
Speed and power are relative and do not dictate the fun level, otherwise we would all be flying lock-on, or some Star Wars rocket simulator. If your plane does 120 Mph and the enemy 100 yours IS fast.

I'm currently flying an Ultralight that is about the same power size and weight as a WW1 fighter and I can assure you that it climbs and turns like a monkey. What I hope we will get with KOTS will be the way such light structures can sideslip and get thrown around in the air. With 10-15 knots sidewind gusting you can be at 45? to the runway. If you then add a rotary engine where the whole motor goes round with the propeller (hense massive torque)and a throttle that is basicly on/off.... It will be sport just getting in the air no matter about actualy fighting in it.

Unfortunately the Gennadich site has gone dead and is giving no more updates.... looks like anothere case of good plans and run out of money.... or has anyone got reliable information?

Bearcat99
09-14-2007, 06:50 AM
I agree.. if you want to get a taste of KoTS then just do a biplane QM in here.... tons of fun.

TgD Thunderbolt56
09-14-2007, 07:28 AM
Just DL the skin-pack and go to RaVen's server...it's a cr@pload of fun:

http://www.ravenskins.com/RaVenskinsWW1.html


http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
TB

EDCF_Rama
09-14-2007, 08:38 AM
Originally posted by STENKA_69.GIAP:
Unfortunately the Gennadich site has gone dead and is giving no more updates.... looks like anothere case of good plans and run out of money.... or has anyone got reliable information?

Yes (for reliable information). I' have regular contacts with GT members (doing some sidework for them). The development is continuing at full potential.

TgD Thunderbolt56
09-14-2007, 08:41 AM
Originally posted by EDCF_Rama:
... I' have regular contacts with GT members (doing some sidework for them). The development is continuing at full potential.

Well, without divulging anything 'taboo' do you know if we can expect KoTS in '07? or will it go the route of SoW and reset a target date for Q1 '08?


TB

Jaws2002
09-14-2007, 09:08 AM
Philistines!!!!

How could this be boring? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v258/<FA>Jaws/tripecovfin.jpg

http://www.wwi-models.org/Images/Miller/render/Albatros/j18axe.jpg


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v258/<FA>Jaws/htcat.jpg

leitmotiv
09-14-2007, 09:17 AM
Originally posted by Jaws2002:
Philistines!!!!

How could this be boring? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v258/<FA>Jaws/tripecovfin.jpg

http://www.wwi-models.org/Images/Miller/render/Albatros/j18axe.jpg


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v258/<FA>Jaws/htcat.jpg


Say no more!

LEBillfish
09-14-2007, 09:53 AM
Dull????? Not fun??????????????? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

Now, some folks idea of fun may be a FPS where you kill 1,500 constantly respawning opponents be it even in a flight sim, yet not mine....Without question, here is my idea of a good time, and to date 90% of the time has been in the old RB3d sim, as here most planes can dive/run/climb/make distance so quickly you can escape before noticed.

A Good Time:

In the Flanders in Flame Wars, a number of new planes were created by the JG1 guys, in the end, most were slow, clumsy, tricky to fly, almost impossible to turn/dive/climb and very fragile.....SO off your squadron would fly out over the front, folks screaming quickly at each other to tighten up and stay together as you struggled to climb to try and be above whatever came your way/fly the route/and have an advantage position with the sun and so on in case you did see anyone.

Most agreed....Though in normal play you went out hunting, in these planes and with the "1 life per night rule", rather quickly most took on the attitude of "please please please let me make my objective/mission goal.......WITHOUT seeing even a single enemy plane".

Odd, yet no matter how good a pilot you were, or how much better your plane was, it became very evident that all it would take was a single stray bullet, too hard a dive to attack or evade, one carb stall, one bit of flak whatever, and you were dead dead dead as there were no chutes......Worse still, if even 5:1 your favor odds, the planes were so slow that if spotted enemy fighters enmasse would be vectored to you normally that one plane shadowing you......In the end, few if any made it through the war/series alive.

So in short order, what had once been "those 3 are mine just cover me!...Kill em all!...Lets go hunting!"....Turned into "Tighten up! Who's covering me?! Oh cr*p I see a dot high! Flak's too thick here! Forget this, lets RTB and let them get shot down by flak instead". Better still, soon the rule of "no comms like real life were allowed" So you had to fly right and trust your teammates to do so......Basically, so tense about even performing the simplest of missions, those even assured of a clear advantage you quite frankly did NOT want to fly to your goals yet HAD to. You deffinately did NOT want to find a fight, and worst of all it was virtually impossible to escape if you did as even an unseen bombing run or high alt recon brought the enemy to you. The norm quickly became "see the enemy, do all you could to evade them to stay unseen and avoid a fight".

The ace's of the sim suddenly didn't want to fight, and after the couple hours of flying, even if having found no action you were drenched in sweat, shaking, and just wanted to land the plane and be done for the day....Those that found fights and survived were wrecks....and many stopped flying nightly saving it up for the once a week mission.

Now that's fun..........and was only a simple sim. Made you really appreciate those that really flew.

WWI sims not fun?.......You clearly have never flown one.

Waldo.Pepper
09-14-2007, 11:35 AM
Guys relax, it's not like I called you Sister ugly!

Let's conduct a little (obviously flawed) thought experiment, looking at a typical engagement where two groups meet in the air - to see what I mean by dull.

We join the action in an air start - like has been suggested. Waldo speaks -

"There's the enemy over there! Lets get them boys!" (Of course Waldo then realizes that he is talking to himself - as his Pup/Se5a/Pfaltz/DVa etc (you get the picture) have not got one of them newfangled wireless sets he has heard so much about!)

So to be accurate (which we all claim to have pretentions toward). We should prevent teamspeak-like communication from spoiling the realism. So that may be a little different eh?!

Next phase - closing:

Chug-chug-chug (at 80-90mph-ish) for a few minutes (perhaps longer, especially if climbing) to get to the enemy.

Waldo thinks!

"This sure is exciting! I wonder what will happen if I ever get to the furball!" Hmmm "I have a few minutes - I wonder what's on the telly!" Picks up remote - "Nothing as usual Harper is still PM - Damn! Have to avoid law and order or the missus will want to watch that episode AGAIN!"

Still not at the furball - Christ they are climbing! Well that's smart I guess - but that will add another ten minutes!

So after a little bit a snarling furball (the one we all dream about - with howling wires and the smell of fear and caster oil filling the air) then ensues - wherein if anyone looses altitude prematurely they are dead (or worse hopelessly out of the action). Dead especially if their crate is not the fastest plane in the engagement.

It lasts mere minutes. Except for the poor slob who have nether the speed nor altitude to escape back over to friendly lines, and the protection of his (hopefully included in the game) Archie, and friendly troops on the ground. If he doesn't have the speed to escape, and there is enemy around then he'll be hunted down by the pack like at a foxhunt.

Thankfully (for you as well perhaps) I am jarred from my thought experiment by the reality of 2007.

So, I certainly hope that my modest misgivings are nothing to worry about and that I am wrong but I think I can see where that will get a little old - fast.

Especially if the planeset is limited, and very very especially is the mission set is limited by the plane set (by a pair of fized machinguns.)

a.) Patrol.
b.) Escort observation flight (aka Patrol with a twist!)
c.) Balloon bust! (YAH!!)

If there is not a light bomber (by that I mean merely a plane that can carry some grenade sized bombs). Then there will be only those missions that can be accomplished by a plane with some Mg's. Again potentially dull - fast.

If there was a two-seater modelled with the gib "armed" with a camera - and other imaginative things like that - then I think that would do much to give the game legs.

Cheers boys! Here's to hoping my modest missives are wrong.

LEBillfish
09-14-2007, 11:49 AM
Go here http://www.wings-of-valor.net/ download RB3d, a VERY old outdated sim...Get it set up to fly on your system (need a voodoo card or glide emulator software also found there..Fly a campaign (still one of the best out there imltho).........Then tell us what you think http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

and this is a very very old sim.....

Waldo.Pepper
09-14-2007, 12:00 PM
Then tell us what you think Wink2

Dearest LBF - really Dear I did just tell you what I think. And then I said I hope that such modest fears are wrong ... and furthermore, I hope your vision is the prevailing reality. If I get to buy KOTS I will be the first kid on my block at the store ... and I hope it has a long and healthy life on my hard drive.

In short I don't need convincing - just some reassurance would be welcome.

M_Gunz
09-14-2007, 01:46 PM
Somehow I don't think that KoTS will have stripping table dancers.

Vanderstok
09-14-2007, 02:00 PM
I think WWI is excellent for a PC flight sim. Because of the lower speed and tighter turn circles you will actually see your opponents clearly on today's computer monitor. Instead of fighting "dots" you will be able to recognise the aircraft in time and anticipate the enemy's next move.
I agree that the slow speeds can also make the flight boring. A "time acceleration" button will be a must-have. Try flying home after some air-2-air action in "First Eagles": It takes forever to reach your airbase!

LEBillfish
09-14-2007, 02:30 PM
Originally posted by Vanderstok:
..........I agree that the slow speeds can also make the flight boring. Try flying home after some air-2-air action in "First Eagles": It takes forever to reach your airbase!

You forget that WWI aircraft flight time/distances were on average very short. Little fuel carried as the weight would be too much, dromes were placed very near the front lines just out of range of artillery......In comparision WWII flight times and ranges were quite long. Moderately fast planes though now having the power to carry massive amounts of fuel......4-8 hour long round trips not that uncommon...........How many of those have you flown here?

So will being somewhat proportional I'd suspect that not being an issue......In fact, due to the shorter flights you'll see more flying them out fully vs. the snippet action we see here.

terriblysilly
09-14-2007, 02:33 PM
Huh???

This is ridiculous!

WWI Flight sims are the BEST! PURE fighter combat - it is not about flight systems, not about mixing oil, not about elevator trim, not about "boom and zoom" -- it is the essence of air combat! One pilot's skill against another, with an intimate connection to his fragile machine!

WWI sims will always excite me the most! The only thing comparable would be a flight sim of battles from the 1920's-1930's....

Kocur_
09-14-2007, 02:51 PM
not about "boom and zoom"

If you read the paper linked in the first post, you'll learn that it actually was about b'n'z, especially in case planes like SPAD VII/XIII and SE5... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

RaVe_N
09-14-2007, 03:16 PM
Thanks for posting that report. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Lurch1962
09-14-2007, 05:19 PM
Dull????? Not fun??????????????? Blink

Now, some folks idea of fun....

LEB,
Excellent picture you paint! I almost sweated it out, too, just reading it! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

--Lurch--

M_Gunz
09-14-2007, 06:39 PM
Gee Raven, thanks for the picture-bombing. We don't all have cable net and this is a forum.

Don't get thinking that practice with post-1930 Clark-Y type wings will make you good at WWI
planes cause if the KoTS FM's are at all real then most people here will be shocked at how
quick and easy stall and spin will hit them.

With two exceptions I can think of, Fokker DrI and Fokker DVII, the wings were all very thin
with a nasty sharp turn at the top of the lift curve and a very low critical angle.

None of them had washout built into the wings, no twist nor any slats. OTOH and I dunno if
KoTS will get it right the Riggers did warp wings in ways I've never seen documented in order
to make the planes fly straight some of the time which covered at least propwash at some speed
but I can't say what else. Rigging was an Art, not a Science.

So you are fine right up till the stall and bang, speed bleed like nothing in IL2 followed by
the spin and then the post about FM is Wrong, etc. Just watch.

Go look at these post-1930 biplanes in compare, not alike.

VMF-214_HaVoK
09-14-2007, 06:52 PM
not about "boom and zoom"

Sure about that? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

S!

VMF-214_HaVoK
09-14-2007, 06:53 PM
Gee Raven, thanks for the picture-bombing. We don't all have cable net and this is a forum.

Did you try clicking the hide post tab?

RaVe_N
09-14-2007, 07:13 PM
Good Point...But I'm Not saying post 1930 biplanes would be the same. You do get a feeling for it a small bit in them.
Still the WWI Ac were very maneuverable.
They were the air craft that ACM's came from
The birth place of the dog fight so to speak.

Once a FM is learned, and one can master the nuances of an air crafts FM then it will become a very enjoyable experience, all be it challenging>
The challenge is half the Fun.
IMHO http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

PS.
sorry for all the pics http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/sadeyes.gif didn't realize they would bog some down.

Jaws2002
09-14-2007, 07:32 PM
I play Richtofen's skyes once in a while and WW1 is a lot of fun.
A chit load of rudder to fly straight, some planes are flying like walking on a rope. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
The canvas rips off with only a slight dive. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
And the sound of Lewis, Hotchkiss and Spandau MG's.... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/inlove.gif

WW1 is real fun. Too bad nobody plays RS online. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

Markku38
09-15-2007, 12:13 AM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by LEBillfish:
Go here http://www.wings-of-valor.net/ download RB3d, a VERY old outdated sim...Get it set up to fly on your system (need a voodoo card or glide emulator software also found there..Fly a campaign (still one of the best out there imltho).........Then tell us what you think http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

and this is a very very old sim.....[/QUOTE

I still have my RB2 disc in closet...maybe it's time to install it again and enjoyed it.
I remember when played it...flying over villages and hearing those church bell ringing...

Oh yes - I been sometimes courtmarshal too http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif
And when landing wounded and waiting ambulance arrived and take you with it.

So many memories about that sim http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

JG53Frankyboy
09-15-2007, 03:28 AM
well, actually , the fighting style you can see now mostly/very often on the IL2 dogfight servers will than more fit to the WW1 era - so, bring on KotS http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif