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XyZspineZyX
06-30-2003, 03:43 AM
Yesterday, I learnt that your chances of getting a plane down by using deflection shooting is much much greater than trying to get on someones six and close to 300 metres and then blast away - the art is in deflection shooting -
I wonder what the percentage of kills came straight from NO deflection shooting - very small I bet.

What are your thought?

Shelton

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XyZspineZyX
06-30-2003, 03:43 AM
Yesterday, I learnt that your chances of getting a plane down by using deflection shooting is much much greater than trying to get on someones six and close to 300 metres and then blast away - the art is in deflection shooting -
I wonder what the percentage of kills came straight from NO deflection shooting - very small I bet.

What are your thought?

Shelton

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XyZspineZyX
06-30-2003, 03:45 AM
have you flown online lately? Everyone uses it

http://mysite.verizon.net/vze4jz7i/ls.gif

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XyZspineZyX
06-30-2003, 03:50 AM
hmmmmmm ... nah !!! ... its easier to complain and eventually force Oleg to make mg bullets hit like 30mmm cannon so you can just shoot from the six http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

XyZspineZyX
06-30-2003, 03:53 AM
do you maybe mean a snap-shot vs. a tracking shot? even when you're on someone's six (tracking shot) there is still going to be some relative motion one way or another, so really, every shot is a deflection shot (ie. you're leading the target). its just a matter of how much....
A snap shot is when you're not tracking a target from the rear-quarter, but rather he's going to cross in front of your path very briefly, and you're going to try and time a burst of bullets to arrive at that point and time at the same moment he does. =) not easy! but sometimes its the only shot you're going to get...
Either way, deflection shooting is involved, and yes, everyone uses it on just about every engagement.

-ron

XyZspineZyX
06-30-2003, 04:01 AM
Oh my god, is anyone waiting, like I am, to see what the Ace of Aces, RayBanJockey, has to say on this one? I can just see it now.

"Well, all online aces like me know all about defelction shooting......".

Anyhoo,
Some level of deflection shooting is needed by almost everyone. But also to that point, Bong was not a very good shot and Harttmann used to drive up an enemies 6 till he could almost touch him before he would shoot.

American heavy bomber gunners were picked for their talent of deflection shooting with shotguns at moving targets.

Good deflection shooting is definetly a plus, but there were great aces/pilots without a mastery of the skill. When you fly something with a small ammo load, deflection shooting can be a huge waste, as say in the case of the 109K. But if you have 6 or 8 .50 cals, it is a far more useful and lucky tool. A little "spray and pray" goes a lot farther in deflection shooting than a small kannonjager.

XyZspineZyX
06-30-2003, 04:03 AM
Well Ive spent countless hrs trying to get on someones 6 and to down him that way (without deflection) - now I know how to get more Kills.

I never fly on line. Playing the German Pilot Career.

Cheers
Shelton

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XyZspineZyX
06-30-2003, 04:17 AM
1943 RAF manual on deflection shooting http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif



(you might need a MSN password to acess it - not sure)



http://www.msnusers.com/WTEGalway/Documents/raf%5Fgunnery.pdf

adlabs6
06-30-2003, 04:23 AM
You'll do better with some practice at deflection. It is mostly a matter of making the most of each situation, and executing quickly. Here is a track which I recorded that shows some of how I shoot.

http://www.geocities.com/adlabs6/B/bin/4X_ace_IL2_vs_adlabs6_G6.zip

If you watch closely, I actually hit the IL2 with my first burst from overhead, though I don't down the plane yet. Hope this helps you out! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif



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Message Edited on 06/30/0303:26AM by adlabs6

XyZspineZyX
06-30-2003, 04:28 AM
Is this track for IL2 ORiginal - I dont have FB.

thanks anyway
Shelton.

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adlabs6
06-30-2003, 04:34 AM
Opps, that track is for FB.

What version of IL2 are you running? The V# is shown at start up on IL2. I think I have V1.2, if yours is also, I can try to make you another track to download. (The versions must be the same for the tracks to work right.)

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XyZspineZyX
06-30-2003, 04:42 AM
i always do. I have to in order to hit the target, it's never directly in front.

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XyZspineZyX
06-30-2003, 04:43 AM
A high percentage of my shots are completely blind when the rounds hit if not at the time I pull the trigger, and I prefer to wait for an unaware enemy to turn or climb before I take a shot so that I will get something other than direct 6 shot.

The difference in effect is quite large, even with a little deflection you get much better results.

Against bombers my initial shot is usually from low/side, but after that I attack from above/side and almost never see my bullets hit (I will see the bomber as I pull the trigger but lose sight before the rounds hit, and I don't think any of the rounds fired with the bomber in sight ever hit).

The_Blue_Devil
06-30-2003, 04:48 AM
Yea man..just take a lead shoot and walk the tracers on back

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<center>[b]"Pilots who liked to dogifght could do it their own way. I avoided it. I always attacked at full speed and I evaded a bounce in the same manner. When you were hit from above and behind, and your attacker held his fire until he was really close, you knew you were in with someone who had a great deal of experience.-Erich Hartmann"[b]</center>


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XyZspineZyX
06-30-2003, 05:40 AM
Actualy Guys, I shot down a 42 Sturmovik last night in my DF server in a 109E-7b with my opening burst from about 250 to 300 metres.
I have my machine guns and cannons set at 500 metres
It looked excellent because of my Radeon Card I could accually see the 20 mm cannon shells exploding along the fuselage, and of course when you get a few hits into the narrow section of fuselage between the tail plane and the main wings, on the Sturmovik, you can saw them in half pretty easily, and they drop to earth in 2 pieces.

Two nights before that I did the same thing in a 109F4, with that single nose heavy machine gun as well.
I think I was as surprised as he was, but it just goes to show that even the F4 109 can be a deadly opponent for the Sturmovik,
Just remember to hit him in that weak spot, the section of Fuselage between the Tail Plane and the main wings, it is the achilles heel of the Sturmovik.

XyZspineZyX
06-30-2003, 06:20 AM
Please email the track. I have version 1.2 of original Sturmovik.


You can find my email addy on my homepage at link down the bottom.

Thanks
Shelton

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XyZspineZyX
06-30-2003, 08:19 AM
Shelton_DCruz wrote:
- Yesterday, I learnt that your chances of getting a
- plane down by using deflection shooting is much much
- greater than trying to get on someones six and close
- to 300 metres and then blast away - the art is in
- deflection shooting -
- I wonder what the percentage of kills came straight
- from NO deflection shooting - very small I bet.
-
- What are your thought?
-
- Shelton

Nah... 300 meters is too far away. you should at least come to 200 or even 100 meters for real effective shots.

Anyways, I mostly fly LW planes with big guns and slow ROF so, I always prefer shots from the '6 of an opponent. The only really succesfull deflection shot I took, was in one of my more brilliant moments. I was flying the 109G2 and the other dude was some YAK. I was on his three o'clock and he was trying to out-turn me. I had a steady aim and I first let go with my MG's to see if they did hit. When they did, I fired my cannon also.

It was really beautifull to see the other plane eaten away by flames /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif one of my teammates congratulated me with my shot and I was the ace of the day /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif (I was flying full-real)

Anyways, that was just once. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Normally I try to limit deflection shots because they mostly miss. with all the limit precious ammo of your MK-108, you can't go taking deflection shots forever. And taking deflection shots in a FW-190 is really all about, let the plane dissapear below the nose of your aircraft and spray 'n pray.

1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye
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measured to you again.

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XyZspineZyX
06-30-2003, 08:48 AM
Platypus_1.JaVA wrote:
-
- Anyways, I mostly fly LW planes with big guns and
- slow ROF so, I always prefer shots from the '6 of an
- opponent.


Me too. I like the use the 7.92s or 13mms only for deflection shooting. The big 'un gets used when I'm so close that I can't miss.

But I do on-line. Frequently./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif



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XyZspineZyX
06-30-2003, 11:04 AM
Surely unless your target is flying straight & level then every kill involves a degree of deflection.

XyZspineZyX
06-30-2003, 01:15 PM
Deflection shooting is vital because after the merge you rarely find someone bumbling along straight and level for you to shoot at. even in the single player game the bad guys fly in a shallow turn to get away and it can be difficult to shoot them down.
I once saw a program where a WWII veteran said that deflection shooting was a matter of instinct. If you over calculate you almost always miss. Just open fire when it feels right, you'll likely miss, which means you need more practice. eventually you'll get it right.

XyZspineZyX
06-30-2003, 01:55 PM
For me, deflection shooting is very hard. Because you can't simulate raising your head above the gunsight, it's very difficult to stream the ammo arc into a target. Every blue moon I might be lucky but 95% of the time it's either a BnZ pass or getting on the enemy's six.

XyZspineZyX
06-30-2003, 02:54 PM
Shelton_DCruz wrote:
- Yesterday, I learnt that your chances of getting a
- plane down by using deflection shooting is much much
- greater than trying to get on someones six and close
- to 300 metres and then blast away - the art is in
- deflection shooting -
-----------------------

As I understand it, the term "Deflection" refers mostly to the angle in degres to target, for example;
0 degres is directly from behind( from 6 oklock), and 90 degres is directly from the side (from 3 or 9 oclock)
So... if the target starts turning u have to "pull lead" to get the proper deflection.
Ive read in some books that deflection shooting was a big obstacle for many pilots, and those who had experience from hunting animals before the wars had a lot easier to understand the concept"deflection".

I mostly fly on greatergreen.com server, 109g:s with wingcannons and I mostly encounter Yak 3 so most kills are high deflection shots,( up to 90 degres) because there is no way a 109 can stay behind a turning Yak3, and head on and a clean shot from behind hapens rarely (for me anyway)
So I try to pick of enemies chasing friendlies, and that results mostly in 90 degre shots.

One on one with yak3 though is not recomended, especially
when flying 109:s w wingcannons. (if ur not an uber ace)



I had to practice lots before i scored my first 90 degre hit.

XyZspineZyX
06-30-2003, 04:45 PM
Deflection shooting and trim on a slider are a winning combination.

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XyZspineZyX
06-30-2003, 04:48 PM
RayBanJockey wrote:
- Deflection shooting and trim on a slider are a
- winning combination.
-

Unlike RayBan's and Jockey's /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
06-30-2003, 04:56 PM
I believe it was generally true in the European theaters that greater emphasis was placed on getting close and shooting from the "six".
US pilots flying in the Pacific spent a great deal of training on deflection shooting, and much of the gun-camera footage you see from the Pacific shows this at work.

Being a good deflection shot is as much art as science. I know many gunsights are set up with reticles that supposedly show distance, gyro gunsights, and so forth- I never use em'. After a long period of watching tracers under varying target conditions, you can pretty well feel where they're gonna go.

It was said during the war that pilots that had spent time hunting upland game or shooting skeet had a pretty good idea what was going on.

XyZspineZyX
06-30-2003, 06:32 PM
Bad deflection shooting, failing to lead target, in spite of smoke/damage from earlier hits:
http://imagehost.vendio.com/preview/wi/wileycoyote2/badgunnerysmallGrey.gif



Good deflection shooting(30degrees):
http://imagehost.vendio.com/preview/wi/wileycoyote2/P47Me262One4.gif



Here is a link to some GC films(sim) on my site which contain some good examples of Deflection shots (as well as some Zero Deflection/From the Six shots):
http://people.ee.ethz.ch/~chapman/flightsims/oberstguncam/Frameset/FBguncamfilmsFrennecPage1.htm



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XyZspineZyX
06-30-2003, 06:51 PM
Although I'm only a lowly offline player, I use deflection and snapshot shooting all the time, both with and without the cockpit. When approaching bombers from the front, I almost always start with low or high deflection shots at the wings, cockpit, or engine nacelles, which quite frequently start fuel leaks or engine fires. By my next pass, the affected plane has often dropped out of formation, making it easier and safer to line up from behind and fill an engine or fuel tank with several good seconds of lead. When taking on fighters, I often use deflection or snap shots in turning engagements, which can kill the pilot our cause sudden engine fires. Unfortunately, killing the pilot is not easily apparent so I usually waste lots of additional ammo on more passes before it becomes obvious the enemy plane is heading down.

Personally, I don't see how anyone can be successful either online or offline without trying to line up deflection angles any chance you get.

The_Blue_Devil
06-30-2003, 07:33 PM
Artic_Wulf wrote:
- Actualy Guys, I shot down a 42 Sturmovik last night
- in my DF server in a 109E-7b with my opening burst
- from about 250 to 300 metres.
- I have my machine guns and cannons set at 500 metres
- It looked excellent because of my Radeon Card I
- could accually see the 20 mm cannon shells exploding
- along the fuselage, and of course when you get a few
- hits into the narrow section of fuselage between the
- tail plane and the main wings, on the Sturmovik, you
- can saw them in half pretty easily, and they drop to
- earth in 2 pieces.
-
- Two nights before that I did the same thing in a
- 109F4, with that single nose heavy machine gun as
- well.
- I think I was as surprised as he was, but it just
- goes to show that even the F4 109 can be a deadly
- opponent for the Sturmovik,
- Just remember to hit him in that weak spot, the
- section of Fuselage between the Tail Plane and the
- main wings, it is the achilles heel of the
- Sturmovik.
-
500m convergence is kinda far methinks for wing mounted guns. And you can kill a Sturmovik with a single burst of 7.92mm machine gun fire if you hit the Ventral radiator..not worth the cannon fire if you swoop down from high six..down to low six and slowly creep up aiming for the Ventral Rad.



<center>----------------------------------------------------------------------------</center>
<center>[b]"Pilots who liked to dogifght could do it their own way. I avoided it. I always attacked at full speed and I evaded a bounce in the same manner. When you were hit from above and behind, and your attacker held his fire until he was really close, you knew you were in with someone who had a great deal of experience.-Erich Hartmann"[b]</center>


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XyZspineZyX
06-30-2003, 07:39 PM
the best guns for deflection shooting are .50's, you can spray an area with bullets and there's a big chance some will hit the enemy and do damage.

i use the 20 and 23mm's (ok and 30's) to shoot ar straight as possible, or when an enemy is climbing and climbing and climbing and when itsa going incredably slow.


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XyZspineZyX
06-30-2003, 08:17 PM
Hunting does help with deflection shots, used to do a lot of wildfowling and clays when I was young, and once I applied that technique to IL2 my kill rate 'shot' up.

Never aim at the plane, always in front, sometimes as much as 3 plane lengths ahead depending on the distance.



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ZG77_Nagual
06-30-2003, 08:33 PM
I only use deflection shooting on friends, or those about whom I am feeling ambilalent. Enemies I try to avoid entirely.
/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

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XyZspineZyX
06-30-2003, 08:35 PM
adlabs, can you post your joystick settings please. =)

adlabs6
06-30-2003, 08:40 PM
OK, here is an IL2 V1.2 track of some deflection shots. In the track I shoot down 2 ace level AI Douglas transports, in a G6AS with Mk108 gunpods to get the point across quickly. The biggest thing to 'learn' is how to pull your target behind the instrument panel, and still keep in you mind an image of the plane, how fast he is going, and in what direction, as well as how fast your closing in. If you get it right, you get the kill.

Here's the link:

http://www.geocities.com/adlabs6/B/bin/adlabs6_deflection.zip

Hope this helps out. Sometimes it can be very useful just seeing how someone else thinks while flying/shooting.

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Message Edited on 06/30/0307:41PM by adlabs6

adlabs6
06-30-2003, 08:50 PM
Blade_X_ wrote:
- adlabs, can you post your joystick settings please.
- /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

If you mean Input sensitivities, I use these:

Pitch: 0 5 10 17 25 33 43 54 71 100
Roll: 0 3 7 15 25 35 50 66 84 100
Yaw: 0 8 19 29 39 57 62 75 100

I got those numbers from the IL2 readme file, I may have changed the Yaw numbers a bit to make a larger dead zone, I can't remember.

My joystick is a Saitex X45, with rotary 1 mapped to elevator pitch, rotary 2 mapped to prop pitch, and my mouse cursor mapped to hat button 1 for looking around (my mouse speed is set to 2.0). I use the hazardscript profiles that are posted on my homepage, I've just made a new one, It'll be there later this week.

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XyZspineZyX
07-01-2003, 04:04 AM
Thanks for all the interesting comments and pictures - with deflection shooting, my kills have gone UP!

Cheers
Shelton

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<font color=FF0000><h2>carpe diem</h2>
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XyZspineZyX
07-01-2003, 04:50 AM
if I got 109 with 108-30mm and target closing below 120 meter infornt of me, from left , right or top , approach or runaway my hitting rate is 70% in IL2-1.2 but IL2-FB just 50%

most of online friend in HL has good turning so , they will not let me (us) shot easy, so the deflection shotting is the option.

90 degree deflection shotting is possible,you can see this.
http://www.bmaxing.com/if2friend/track/deflection90.zip (IL2-FB) (http://www.bmaxing.com/if2friend/track/deflection90.zip)
and if someone see this track and decide that is the lucky shot so read about D.F.R

D.F.R. (Dflective fuselage reage) is estimate rage to line a gun sight on next flight path of the airplane target. 1 DFR is equar to <font color="#FF0000">9 meter</font> ( fighter airplane fuselage reage # not for bomb airplane target)
Read more D.F.R concept here (http://www.bmaxing.com/il2friend/deflection_01.html)


Let this picture below show you how this idea is work http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif ( from IL2-v.1.2)</p>


sample1</p>
http://www.bmaxing.com/il2friend/images/deflection/DF12_1S340D2p0.GIF
http://www.bmaxing.com/il2friend/images/deflection/DF12_2S340D2p0.GIF
http://www.bmaxing.com/il2friend/images/deflection/DF12_3S340D2p0.GIF
http://www.bmaxing.com/il2friend/images/deflection/DF12_4S340D2p0.GIF
http://www.bmaxing.com/il2friend/images/deflection/DF12_5S340D2p0.GIF


sample2</p>
http://www.bmaxing.com/il2friend/images/deflection/DF09_A015R080S290D1p2.GIF
http://www.bmaxing.com/il2friend/images/deflection/DF09_B015R080S290D1p2.GIF
http://www.bmaxing.com/il2friend/images/deflection/DF09_C015R080S290D1p2.GIF
http://www.bmaxing.com/il2friend/images/deflection/DF09_D015R080S290D1p2.GIF
http://www.bmaxing.com/il2friend/images/deflection/DF09_E015R080S290D1p2.GIF


sample 3</p>


http://www.bmaxing.com/il2friend/images/deflection/DF02C_A90R140S180.GIF</p>


http://www.bmaxing.com/il2friend/images/deflection/DF02B_A90R140S180.GIFhttp://www.bmaxing.com/il2friend/images/deflection/DF02D_A90R140S180.GIFhttp://www.bmaxing.com/il2friend/images/deflection/DF02E_A90R140S180.GIF</p>
Problem for D.F.R
In IL2 game play, I don't know what exactly target airplane speed so I have
to estimate by compare to my air-speed and adjust depend on situation movement<ul>
<LI>he climbing his speed drop
<LI>he driving his speed faster and faster
<LI>he on the top of loop his speed slow
<LI>he on the buttom of loop his speed faster
[/list]

Oh,and I have more track for my offline training with 1vs2acs AI in (IL2-FB) here
http://www.bmaxing.com/if2friend/track/train1vs2acs_ai.zip (IL2-FB) (http://www.bmaxing.com/if2friend/track/train1vs2acs_ai.zip)

Hope this all will help you some http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
S!

XyZspineZyX
07-01-2003, 05:00 AM
Deflection shooting with Hurricane field mod IIC is my favorite. 4 wing cannons and great front visibility let me hit engines dead on from 50 m range

XyZspineZyX
07-01-2003, 07:49 AM
RayBanJockey wrote:
- Deflection shooting and trim on a slider are a
- winning combination.
-

Hey Ray,
What are you still doing in here. I thought you were going AWOL when SWG hit the shelves. Guess it isn't that good?

XyZspineZyX
07-01-2003, 09:14 AM
WOW thanks for those pics - they are wonderful and thanks for the track to the other dude!

Cheers
Shelton

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