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HotelBushranger
02-18-2008, 02:00 AM
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=19134461

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2008-02/18/content_7624930.htm

Good for them! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Copperhead311th
02-18-2008, 02:24 AM
yeah i read an artical on that this morning.
Russia is dead set against it.

honestly how long do ya think thats gonna last????

HotelBushranger
02-18-2008, 02:26 AM
I think it'll stay, but there's going to firstly be a lot of violence before a permanent peace comes into effect.

leitmotiv
02-18-2008, 04:10 AM
Recognizing this could have deadly consequences for almost every EU member, and, interestingly, for the U.S., too (since Mexican peasants have simply occupied California and other states---and, ominously, many do not consider themselves Americans), and the Kosavars are not exactly sweethearts.

Airmail109
02-18-2008, 04:15 AM
Originally posted by leitmotiv:
Recognizing this could have deadly consequences for almost every EU member, and, interestingly, for the U.S., too (since Mexican peasants have simply occupied California and other states---and, ominously, many do not consider themselves Americans), and the Kosavars are not exactly sweethearts.

Exactly how many Mexicans, Pyreneeans or Scots have been persecuted recently? Don't forget what the Serbs pulled, they don't deserve that country.

leitmotiv
02-18-2008, 04:22 AM
Don't forget that Kosavars were attacking Serb military units and civilians before the UN "intervention." They were NOT victims, as unpopular as this may be to recognize. Remember the cute little number Hitler pulled on Czechoslovakia in 1938 using the same method---alleged persecution of a minority.

Airmail109
02-18-2008, 04:27 AM
Originally posted by leitmotiv:
Don't forget that Kosavars were attacking Serb military units and civilians before the UN "intervention." They were NOT victims, as unpopular as this may be to recognize. Remember the cute little number Hitler pulled on Czechoslovakia in 1938 using the same method---alleged persecution of a minority.

Doesnt make genocide okay, it's like saying we were in the right on Bloody Sunday

Airmail109
02-18-2008, 04:30 AM
Heres some history

Kosovo in Tito's Yugoslavia (1945–1986)

Tensions between the two communities had been simmering throughout the 20th century and had occasionally erupted into major violence, particularly during the First Balkan War, World War I and World War II. The Communist government of Josip Broz Tito systematically repressed nationalist manifestations throughout Yugoslavia, seeking to ensure that no Yugoslav republic or nationality gained dominance over the others. In particular, the power of Serbia"”the largest and most populous republic"”was diluted by the establishment of autonomous governments in the province of Vojvodina in the north of Serbia and Kosovo in the south. Kosovo's borders did not precisely match the areas of ethnic Albanian settlement in Yugoslavia (significant numbers of Albanians were left in the Republic of Macedonia, Montenegro, and Serbia, while the far north of Kosovo remained largely ethnic Serbian). Nonetheless, the majority of its inhabitants since at least the 1921 census were Albanian.

Kosovo's formal autonomy, established under the 1945 Yugoslav constitution, initially meant relatively little in practice. Tito's secret police cracked down hard on nationalists. In 1956, a number of Albanians were put on trial in Kosovo on charges of espionage and subversion. The threat of separatism was in fact minimal, as the few underground groups aiming for union with Albania were politically insignificant. Their long-term impact was substantial, though, as some"”particularly the Revolutionary Movement for Albanian Unity, founded by Adem Demaci"”were much later to form the political core of the Kosovo Liberation Army. Demaci himself was imprisoned in 1964 along with many of his followers.

Yugoslavia underwent a period of economic and political crisis in 1968, as a massive government program of economic reform widened the gap between the rich north and poor south of the country. Student demonstrations and riots in Belgrade in June 1968 spread to Kosovo in November the same year, but were put down by the Yugoslav security forces. However, some of the students' demands"”particularly for real representative powers for Albanians on both Serbian and Yugoslav state bodies, and better recognition of the Albanian language"”were conceded by Tito. University of Priština was established as an independent institution in 1970, ending a long period when the institution had been run as an outpost of Belgrade University. The Albanianisation of education in Kosovo was hampered by the lack of Albanian-language educational materials in Yugoslavia, so an agreement was struck with Albania itself to supply textbooks.

In 1974, Kosovo's political status was improved still further when a new Yugoslav constitution granted an expanded set of political rights. Along with Vojvodina, it was declared a province and gained many of the powers of a fully-fledged republic: a seat on the federal presidency and its own assembly, police force and national bank. Power was still exercised by the Communist Party, but it was now devolved mainly to ethnic Albanian communists.

Tito's death on May 4, 1980 ushered in a long period of political instability, worsened by growing economic crisis and nationalist unrest. The first major outbreak occurred in Kosovo's main city, Pristina, in March 1981 when Albanian students rioted over long queues in their university canteen. This seemingly trivial dispute rapidly spread throughout Kosovo and took on the character of a national revolt, with massive popular demonstrations in many Kosovo towns. The protesters demanded that Kosovo should become the seventh republic of Yugoslavia. However, this was politically unacceptable to Serbia and the Republic of Macedonia. Some Serbs (and possibly some Albanian nationalists as well) saw the demands as being a prelude to a "Greater Albania" which could encompass parts of Montenegro, the Republic of Macedonia and Kosovo itself. The Communist Yugoslav presidency quelled the disturbances by sending in riot police and the army and proclaiming a state of emergency, although it did not repeal the province's autonomy as some Serbian Communists demanded. The Yugoslav press reported that about 11 people had been killed (although others claimed a death toll as high as 1,000) and another 4,200 were imprisoned.

Kosovo's Communist Party also suffered purges, with several key figures (including its president) expelled. Hardliners instituted a fierce crackdown on nationalism of all kinds, Albanian and Serbian alike. Kosovo endured a heavy secret police presence throughout most of the 1980s that ruthlessly suppressed any unauthorised nationalist manifestations, both Albanian and Serbian. According to a report quoted by Mark Thompson, as many as 580,000 inhabitants of Kosovo were arrested, interrogated, interned or reprimanded. Thousands of these lost their jobs or were expelled from their educational establishments.

During this time, tension between the Albanian and Serbian communities continued to escalate. In 1969, the Serbian Orthodox Church had ordered its clergy to compile data on the ongoing problems of Serbs in Kosovo, seeking to pressure the government in Belgrade to do more to protect the Serbian faithful. In February 1982, a group of priests from Serbia proper petitioned their bishops to ask "why the Serbian Church is silent" and why it did not campaign against "the destruction, arson and sacrilege of the holy shrines of Kosovo". Such concerns did attract interest in Belgrade. Stories appeared from time to time in the Belgrade media claiming that Serbs and Montenegrins were being persecuted. There was a genuine perception among Serbian nationalists in particular that Serbs were being driven out of Kosovo. A significant fact contributing to fear and instability was large-scale drug traffiking by mafias of Kosovar Albanians.

An additional factor was the worsening state of Kosovo's economy, which made the province a poor choice for Serbs seeking work. Albanians, as well as Serbs tended to favour their compatriots when employing new recruits, but the number of jobs was in any case too few for the population. To that end, it is believed that a large number of those declaring Albanian ethnicity are in fact from the Roma community who happen to be of Islamic faith. Kosovo was the poorest part of Yugoslavia: in 1979 the average per capita income was $795, compared with the national average of $2,635 (and $5,315 in Slovenia).

[edit] Kosovo and the rise of Slobodan Milošević (1986–1990)

In Kosovo growing Albanian nationalism and separatism in response to persecution led to growing ethnic tensions between Serbs and Albanians. An increasingly poisonous atmosphere led to wild rumours being traded and otherwise trivial incidents being blown out of proportion.

It was against this tense background that the Serbian Academy of Sciences and Arts (SANU, from its Serbian initials, Š”ŠŠŠ£) conducted a survey under Serbs who had left Kosovo in 1985/1986.[23] The report concluded that a considerable part of those who had left had been under pressure by Albanians to do so.

Sixteen prominent members of the SANU began work in June 1985 on a draft document that was leaked to the public in September 1986. The SANU Memorandum, as it has become known, was hugely controversial. It focused on the political difficulties facing Serbs in Yugoslavia, pointing to Tito's deliberate hobbling of Serbia's power and the difficulties faced by Serbs outside Serbia proper.

The Memorandum paid special attention to Kosovo, arguing that the province's Serbs were being subjected to "physical, political, legal and cultural genocide" in an "open and total war" that had been ongoing since the spring of 1981. It claimed that Kosovo's status in 1986 was a worse historical defeat for the Serbs than any event since liberation from the Ottomans in 1804, thus ranking it above such catastrophes as the Nazi occupation or the First World War occupation of Serbia by the Austro-Hungarians. The Memorandum's authors claimed that 200,000 Serbs had moved out of the province over the previous twenty years and warned that there would soon be none left "unless things change radically." The remedy, according to the Memorandum, was for "genuine security and unambiguous equality for all peoples living in Kosovo and Metohija [to be] established" and "objective and permanent conditions for the return of the expelled [Serbian] nation [to be] created." It concluded that "Serbia must not be passive and wait and see what the others will say, as it has done so often in the past."

The SANU Memorandum met with many different reactions. The Albanians saw it as a call for Serbian supremacism at a local level. They claimed that all Serb emigrants had left Kosovo for economic reasons. Other Yugoslav nationalities"”notably the Slovenes and Croats"”saw a threat in the call for a more assertive Serbia. Serbs themselves were divided: many welcomed it, while the Communist old guard strongly attacked its message. One of those who denounced it was a Serbian Communist Party official named Slobodan Milošević.

In November 1988, Kosovo's head of the provincial committee was arrested. In March 1989, Milošević announced an "anti-bureaucratic revolution" in Kosovo and Vojvodina, curtailing their autonomy and imposing a curfew and a state of emergency in Kosovo due to violent demonstrations, resulting in 24 deaths (including two policemen). Milošević and his government claimed that the constitutional changes were necessary to protect Kosovo's remaining Serbs against harassment from the Albanian majority.

[edit] Kosovo under direct Serbian rule (1990–1996)

Slobodan Milošević took the process of retrenchment a stage further in 1990 when he revoked the autonomy of Kosovo and Vojvodina and replaced locally chosen leaders with his sympathizers. Crucially, as both provinces had a vote in the eight member Yugoslav Presidency, this gave Milosevic an automatic four votes when combined with Serbia and Montenegro (which was closely allied to Serbia). Slovenia, Croatia, Bosnia and Macedonia thus had to maintain an uneasy alliance to prevent Milošević from driving through constitutional changes. Serbia's political changes were ratified in a 5 July 1990 referendum across the entire republic of Serbia, including Kosovo. Most Albanians boycotted it and the result was a foregone conclusion given the much greater population of Serbia proper.

The impact on Kosovo was drastic. The reduction of its autonomy was accompanied by the abolition of its political institutions (including the League of Communists of Kosovo), with its assembly and government being formally disbanded. As most of Kosovo's industry was state-owned, the changes brought a wholesale change of corporate cadres. Technically, few were sacked outright: their companies required them to sign loyalty pledges, which most Albanians would not sign, although a few did and remained employed in Serbian state companies right up to 1999.

Albanian cultural autonomy was also drastically reduced. The only Albanian-language newspaper, Rilindja, was banned and TV and radio broadcasts in Albanian ceased. Albanian was no longer an official language of the province. Pristina University, seen as a hotbed of Albanian nationalism, was purged: 800 lecturers at Pristina University were sacked and 22,500 of the 23,000 students expelled. Some 40,000 Yugoslav troops and police replaced the original Albanian-run security forces. A punitive regime was imposed that was harshly condemned as a "police state". Poverty and unemployment reached catastrophic levels, with about 80% of Kosovo's population becoming unemployed. As many as a third of adult male Albanians chose to go abroad (particularly to Germany and Switzerland) to find work.

With Kosovo's Communist Party effectively broken up by Milošević's crackdown, the dominant Albanian political party position passed to the Democratic League of Kosovo, led by the writer Ibrahim Rugova. It responded to the abolition of Kosovo's autonomy by pursuing a policy of peaceful resistance. Rugova took the very practical line that armed resistance would be futile given Serbia's military strength and would lead only to a bloodbath in the province. He called on the Albanian populace to boycott the Yugoslav and Serbian states by not participating in any elections, by ignoring the military draft (compulsory in Yugoslavia) and most important by not paying any taxes or duties to the State. He also called for the creation of parallel Albanian schools, clinics and hospitals. In September 1991, the shadow Kosovo Assembly organized a referendum on independence for Kosovo. Despite widespread harassment and violence by Serbian security forces, the referendum achieved a reported 90% turnout among the province's Albanians, and a 98% vote"”nearly a million votes in all"”which approved the creation of an independent "Republic of Kosovo". In May 1992, a second referendum elected Rugova as President of Kosovo. The Serbian government declared that both referendums were illegal and their results null and void.

[edit] The slide to war (1996–1998)
The Kosovo War
Prior to the NATO intervention

Kosovo Liberation Army insurgency
Račak incident
NATO intervention

NATO intervention
Civilian Casualties
Other articles

Legitimacy
Humanitarian bombing

Other: Images
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Rugova's policy of passive resistance succeeded in keeping Kosovo quiet during the war with Slovenia, and the wars in Croatia and Bosnia during the early 1990s. However, this came at the cost of increasing frustration among the Albanian population of Kosovo[citation needed]. In the mid-1990s, Rugova pleaded for a United Nations peacekeeping force for Kosovo. In 1997, Milošević was promoted to the presidency of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia (comprising Serbia and Montenegro since its inception in April 1992).

Continuing Serbian repression had radicalised many Albanians, some of whom decided that only armed resistance would effect a change in the situation. On April 22, 1996, four attacks on Serbian civilians and security personnel were carried out virtually simultaneously in several parts of Kosovo. A hitherto unknown organization calling itself the "Kosovo Liberation Army" (KLA) subsequently claimed responsibility. The nature of the KLA was at first highly mysterious. In fact, it was initially a small, mainly clan-based but not very well organised group of radicalised Albanians, many of whom came from the Drenica region of western Kosovo. The KLA at this stage consisted mainly of local farmers and displaced and unemployed workers.

It is widely believed that the KLA received financial and material support from the Kosovo Albanian diaspora in Europe and elsewhere. In early 1997, Albania collapsed into chaos following the fall of President Sali Berisha. Military stockpiles were looted with impunity by criminal gangs, with much of the hardware ending up in western Kosovo and so boosting the growing KLA arsenal. The KLA also received financial aid from the Albanian in diaspora.[2] Bujar Bukoshi, shadow Prime Minister in exile (in Zürich, Switzerland), created a group called FARK (Armed Forces of the Republic of Kosova) which was reported to have been disbanded and absorbed by the KLA in 1998.

Most Albanians saw the KLA as legitimate "freedom fighters" whilst the Yugoslav government labelled them as "terrorists" attacking police and civilians. Although the U.S. envoy Robert Gelbard referred to the KLA as terrorists, he later admitted that they were "never officially classified as a terrorist organisation by the U.S. government."[24][25][26] Shortly after making his claims that the KLA were terrorists, Robert Gelbard was removed from his position as special envoy to Kosovo. It should also be noted that neither the United States nor the other influential powers made any serious effort to stop money or weapons being channeled into Kosovo.

Meanwhile, the U.S. held an "outer wall of sanctions" on Yugoslavia which had been tied to a series of issues, Kosovo being one of them. These were maintained despite the agreement at Dayton to end all sanctions. The Clinton administration claimed that Dayton bound Yugoslavia to hold discussions with Rugova over Kosovo.

The crisis escalated in December 1997 at the Peace Implementation Council meeting in Bonn, where the International Community (as defined in the Dayton Agreement) agreed to give the High Representative in Bosnia sweeping powers, including the right to fire elected leaders. At the same time, Western diplomats insisted that Kosovo be discussed, and that Serbia and Yugoslavia be responsive to Albanian demands there. The delegation from Serbia stormed out of the meetings in protest.

This was followed by the return of the Contact Group that oversaw the last phases of the Bosnian conflict and declarations from European powers demanding that Serbia solve the problem in Kosovo.

KLA attacks had suddenly intensified, centered on the Drenica valley area, with the compound of one Adem Jashari being a particular focal point. Days after Robert Gelbard described the KLA as a terrorist group, Serbian police responded to the KLA attacks in the Likosane area, and pursued some of the KLA to Cirez, resulting in the deaths of 30 Albanian civilians and four Serbian policemen.[27] The first serious action of the war had begun.

Despite some accusations of summary executions and killings of civilians, condemnations from Western capitals were not as voluble as they would become later. Serb police began to pursue Jashari and his followers in the village of Donje Prekaz. A massive firefight at the Jashari compound led to the death of a further 60 Albanians, of which eighteen were women and ten were under the age of sixteen.[28] This March 5 event provoked massive condemnation from the western capitals. Madeleine Albright stated that "this crisis is not an internal affair of the FRY".

On the 24th of March, Serbian forces surrounded the village of Glodjane, in the Dukagjin operational zone, and attacked a rebel compound there.[29] Despite their superior firepower, the Serbian forces failed to destroy the KLA unit which had been their objective. Although there were deaths and severe injuries on the Albanian side, the insurgency in Glodjane was far from stamped out. It was in fact to become one of the strongest centres of resistance in the upcoming war.

The Serbs also continued their efforts at diplomacy, attempting to arrange talks with Ibrahim Rugova's staff (talks which Rugova and his staff refused to attend). After several failed meetings, Ratko Marković, chairman of the Serbian delegation to the meetings, invited representatives of Kosovo minority groups to attend and maintained his invitation to the Albanians. Serbian President Milan Milutinović attended one of the meetings, though Rugova did not. He and his staff insisted on talking to Yugoslav officials, not Serbian ones, and only to discuss the modalities of Kosovo independence.

A new Serbian government was also formed at this time, led by the Socialist Party of Serbia and the Serbian Radical Party. Ultra-nationalist Radical Party chairman Vojislav Å ešelj became a deputy prime minister. This increased the dissatisfaction with Serbia's position among Western diplomats and spokespersons.

In early April, Serbia arranged for a referendum on the issue of foreign interference in Kosovo. Serbian voters decisively rejected foreign interference in this internal affair. Meanwhile, the KLA claimed much of the area in and around Decani and ran a territory based in the village of Glodjane, encompassing its surroundings. So, on May 31, 1998, the Yugoslav army and the Serb Ministry of the Interior police began an operation to clear the border of the KLA. This lasted several days and led to bomb threats from the western capitals, including reports which claimed summary executions and killings of civilians. NATO's response to this offensive was mid-June's Operation Determined Falcon, an air show over the Yugoslav borders.

During this time, the Yugoslav President Milošević made an arrangement with Boris Yeltsin of Russia to stop offensive operations and prepare for talks with the Albanians, who, through this whole crisis, refused to talk to the Serbian side, but not the Yugoslav. In fact, the only meeting between Milošević and Ibrahim Rugova took place in May; Rugova was forced to attend after police sequestered him from his house in Priština. Meanwhile, Richard Holbrooke arrived, where he is famously pictured with the KLA. The publication of these images sent a signal to the KLA, its supporters and sympathisers, and to observers in general, that the U.S. was decisively backing the KLA.

All through June and into mid July, the KLA maintained its advance. KLA surrounded Peć, Djakovica, and had set up an interim capital in the town of Mališevo (to the north of Orahovac). The KLA troops were infiltrating Suva Reka, and north to the area west of Priština. They threatened the Belacevec coal pits and captured them in late June, threatening energy supplies in the region.

The tide turned in mid-July when the KLA captured Orahovac. On the 17th of July 1998 in the two close by villages to Orahovac, Retimlije and Opteruša, all the Serb males were kidnapped and later found dead. Similar, even if less systematic incidents took place in the town of Orahovac and the larger Serb village Velika hoċa. The Orthodox monastery of Zociste 5 km from Orehovac - famous for the relics of the Saints Kosmas and Damianos and revered also by local Albanians - was robbed, its monks deported to a KLA prison camp, and, while empty, the monastery church and all its buildings were leveled to the ground by mining. This led to a series of Serb and Yugoslav offensives which would continue into the beginning of August.

Finally, in September, a determined effort was made to clear the KLA out of the northern and central parts of Kosovo and out of the Drenica valley itself. During this time many threats were made by Western capitals but these were tempered somewhat by the elections in Bosnia, as they didn't want Serbian Democrats and Radicals to win. Following the elections, however, the threats intensified once again but a galvanising event was needed. They got it on September 28, when the mutilated corpses of a family were discovered outside the village of Gornje Obrinje; the bloody doll from there became the rallying image for the ensuing war.

The other major issue for those who saw no option but to resort to the use of force was the estimated 300,000 displaced Albanians, 30,000 of whom were out in the woods, without clothing or shelter, with winter approaching.

Meanwhile, the U.S. Ambassador to the Republic of Macedonia, Christopher Hill, was leading shuttle diplomacy between an Albanian delegation, led by Rugova, and the Yugoslav and Serbian authorities. It was these meetings which were shaping what was to be the peace plan to be discussed during a period of planned NATO occupation of Kosovo.

During a period of two weeks, threats intensified, culminating in NATO's Activation Order being given. All was ready for the bombs to fly; Richard Holbrooke went to Belgrade in the hope of reaching an agreeming with Milošević with regards to deploying a NATO presence in Kosovo. With him came General Michael Short, who threatened to destroy Belgrade. Long and painful discussions led to the Kosovo Verification Agreement on October 12, 1998.

Officially, the international community demanded an end to fighting. It specifically demanded that the Serbs end its offensives against the KLA, (without mention of an end to KLA-perpetrated attacks), whilst attempting to convince the KLA to drop its bid for independence. Moreover, attempts were made to persuade Milošević to permit NATO peacekeeping troops to enter Kosovo. This, they argued, would allow for the Christopher Hill peace process to proceed and yield a peace agreement. A ceasefire was brokered, commencing on October 25, 1998. A large contingent of unarmed OSCE peace monitors (officially known as verifiers) moved into Kosovo. Their inadequacy was evident from the start. They were nicknamed the "clockwork oranges" in reference to their brightly coloured vehicles (in English, a "clockwork orange" signifies a useless object.) The ceasefire broke down within a matter of weeks and fighting resumed in December 1998 after the KLA occupied some bunkers overlooking the strategic Priština-Podujevo highway, not long after the Panda Bar Massacre, when the KLA shot up a cafe in Peć.

[edit] Račak incident
A Yugoslav army T-55 tank during a fight.
A Yugoslav army T-55 tank during a fight.
Column of Yugoslav army vehicles. In front are two UAZ-469 jeeps, in middle is M53/59 Praga, and on the end is TAM-150 truck.
Column of Yugoslav army vehicles. In front are two UAZ-469 jeeps, in middle is M53/59 Praga, and on the end is TAM-150 truck.

KLA attacks and Serbian reprisals continued throughout the winter of 1998–1999, culminating on January 15, 1999 with the Račak incident. The incident was immediately (before the investigation) condemned as a massacre by the Western countries and the United Nations Security Council, and later became the basis of one of the charges of war crimes leveled against Milošević and his top officials. The details of what happened at Račak are still controversial. Although the war crimes tribunal has not yet ruled on the issue, it is fair to say that the massacre narrative is broadly accepted in NATO member states.

NATO decided that the conflict could only be settled by introducing a military peacekeeping force under the auspices of NATO, to forcibly restrain the two sides. A carefully coordinated set of diplomatic initiatives was announced simultaneously on January 30, 1999:

* NATO issued a statement announcing that it was prepared to launch air strikes against Yugoslav targets "to compel compliance with the demands of the international community and [to achieve] a political settlement". While this was most obviously a threat to the Milošević government, it also included a coded threat to the Albanians: any decision would depend on the "position and actions of the Kosovo Albanian leadership and all Kosovo Albanian armed elements in and around Kosovo." In effect, NATO was saying to the Serbs "make peace or we'll bomb you" and to the Albanians "make peace or we'll abandon you to the Serbs."

* The Contact Group issued a set of "non-negotiable principles" which made up a package known as "Status Quo Plus""”effectively the restoration of Kosovo's pre-1990 autonomy within Serbia, plus the introduction of democracy and supervision by international organisations. It also called for a peace conference to be held in February 1999 at the Chāteau de Rambouillet, outside Paris.

leitmotiv
02-18-2008, 04:44 AM
Citation, please.

I followed the entire mess in detail. The Left is always willing to be generous with other peoples' land and money, and with equally disastrous consequences in each case.

leitmotiv
02-18-2008, 04:47 AM
Originally posted by Aimail101:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by leitmotiv:
Don't forget that Kosavars were attacking Serb military units and civilians before the UN "intervention." They were NOT victims, as unpopular as this may be to recognize. Remember the cute little number Hitler pulled on Czechoslovakia in 1938 using the same method---alleged persecution of a minority.

Doesnt make genocide okay, it's like saying we were in the right on Bloody Sunday </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Genocide? You mean expulsion. Genocide was what the Serbs and Croatians used in the the liberation wars of the '90's.

Airmail109
02-18-2008, 05:18 AM
Originally posted by leitmotiv:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Aimail101:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by leitmotiv:
Don't forget that Kosavars were attacking Serb military units and civilians before the UN "intervention." They were NOT victims, as unpopular as this may be to recognize. Remember the cute little number Hitler pulled on Czechoslovakia in 1938 using the same method---alleged persecution of a minority.

Doesnt make genocide okay, it's like saying we were in the right on Bloody Sunday </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Genocide? You mean expulsion. Genocide was what the Serbs and Croatians used in the the liberation wars of the '90's. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Račak incident

Expulsion of a native peoples is not much better either

joeap
02-18-2008, 05:20 AM
Originally posted by Aimail101:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by leitmotiv:
Don't forget that Kosavars were attacking Serb military units and civilians before the UN "intervention." They were NOT victims, as unpopular as this may be to recognize. Remember the cute little number Hitler pulled on Czechoslovakia in 1938 using the same method---alleged persecution of a minority.



Doesnt make genocide okay, it's like saying we were in the right on Bloody Sunday </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think you need to read some more than the mainstream press. Tell me why shouldn't Northern Ireland be given back to the Republic then? Mind you only a minority (of Catholics) wanted it. Then again historically the Protestanst were the invaders and oppresors.

In Kosovo, the Abanians drove out the Serbs by violence and massacre, encouraged by Tito to weaken the Serbs, it WAS there ancient historical territory. The regrettable and wrong Serbian response was self-defence for a persecuted minority. Even since the NNATO intervention and occupation in 1999 there has been anti-Serb, and Anti-Rom (Gypsy) violence and the destruction of numerous churches and monastries in Kosovo.

Plus the hypocrisy and double-standards of the "international community" are behind this as usual. When will the world recognise the Northern Cypriot Republic? The Basques? The Quebecois? The Aboriginals of Quebec (or British Columbia my home province)?

My problem is not that they becamse independent, that was inevitable given the oeverwhelming majority and the demographics, just the fact the Western world acted on this case with military action in this case and not with others. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

Oh well good luck to the Kosovarans, I know a few from there and Albania proper. Nice people for the most part, sadly they will have to put up with a Mafia-run government that will need subsidies from the EU for decades to come. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/disagree.gif

joeap
02-18-2008, 05:21 AM
Originally posted by Aimail101:
Račak incident

Expulsion of a native peoples is not much better either

Read my post, the Serbs were the native people of Kosovo.

roybaty
02-18-2008, 05:27 AM
I must play the ignorant American as ask a few questions:

1. Do they have oil?
2. Does al qaeda have anything to do with this?
3. If no to 1 & 2 why do I care
4. Where's Kosovo

P.S. I'm joking, but unfortunately this is the attitude of a large amount of citizens in the U.S. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif.

Only reason we'd (U.S.) strongly support this is to irritate the Serbians and Intern perhaps annoy Putin as he has been authorizing more and more daring Bear intrusions. Hmmm I wonder if Kosovo wants to join NATO and needs a few ABMs http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

But hopefully things will keep cool there and there isn't to much violence, wishful thinking I know http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

Airmail109
02-18-2008, 05:35 AM
Originally posted by joeap:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Aimail101:
Račak incident

Expulsion of a native peoples is not much better either

Read my post, the Serbs were the native people of Kosovo. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The Serbs practiced expulsion on a far bigger scale

So your telling me it would be okay for the Scotts and Welsh to drive the British out of Britain? Or that Native Americans have the right to drive out all Americans by force? You think the Israelis should go and demolish Gaza completely and boot everyone out because of some Ancient History?

Native after a while is merely the majority in that country

Honestly whilst the Kosovans were by no means perfect, the Serbian retaliation immediately for fitted their rights to that country.

Ratsack
02-18-2008, 05:54 AM
It's worth remembering, too, that the mass expulsions of Albanians from Kosovo began after the NATO intervention. The NATO intervention is often - erroneously - portrayed as the response to that program of expulsion, but it wasn't.

Ratsack

Ratsack
02-18-2008, 05:57 AM
Originally posted by leitmotiv:
...The Left is always willing to be generous with other peoples' land and money, and with equally disastrous consequences in each case.

Geez man, you've gotta stop drinkin' that red cordial!

I don't think Chamberlain can be described as deep-dyed leftist!

Ratsack

Brain32
02-18-2008, 06:07 AM
Originally posted by leitmotiv: Genocide was what the Serbs and Croatians used in the the liberation wars of the '90's.
Be sure to check stuff before you write utter ridiculous bullsh1t OK?

SeaFireLIV
02-18-2008, 06:17 AM
Not sure this is a wise idea. Stuff like this always leads to something worse. History seems to agree with me.

Could they just not learn to get along rather than being separated even more now?

DKoor
02-18-2008, 08:08 AM
Originally posted by joeap:
My problem is not that they becamse independent, that was inevitable given the oeverwhelming majority and the demographics, just the fact the Western world acted on this case with military action in this case and not with others. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif Spain will never admit Kosovo's independence.... for obvious reasons.
And they are just one of the many, that have internal problems with people who want to separate from them.

I reckon a whole bunch of new regions/states in the world applying for independence.

DKoor
02-18-2008, 08:14 AM
Originally posted by Brain32:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by leitmotiv: Genocide was what the Serbs and Croatians used in the the liberation wars of the '90's.
Be sure to check stuff before you write utter ridiculous bullsh1t OK? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Yes... those were quite bold words IMO.

Makes me puke because I never really could stand the double standards that people can so easily come up with.

Defenders, attackers, who is right-wrong (by international law) who cares?

Let the tribes provide fun to the world by killing themselves.

joeap
02-18-2008, 10:22 AM
Originally posted by Aimail101:

The Serbs practiced expulsion on a far bigger scale

So your telling me it would be okay for the Scotts and Welsh to drive the British out of Britain? Or that Native Americans have the right to drive out all Americans by force? You think the Israelis should go and demolish Gaza completely and boot everyone out because of some Ancient History?

Native after a while is merely the majority in that country

Honestly whilst the Kosovans were by no means perfect, the Serbian retaliation immediately for fitted their rights to that country.

I did not say it is ok. I was certainly disgusted by the ethnic-cleansing the Serbs did in Bosnia. First of all why the West intervened there and not elsewhere, the US had not put pressure on Turkey to withdraw troops from Cyprus and the EU efforts have been a joke. Second, the fact there was ethnic unrest but no "genocide" (meaning the term used in international law) and the fact the Albanians got a free pass for starting the process. Last I thought the interventions in Bosnia were far too late, but at least more proportionate. A Serb friend of mine (who was very much against Milosovic back in the day) who was studying here and is now working lived through hell during the bombing of Blegrade. BTW his parents went through WWII as well, the 1941 bombing by the Germans, his dad was a partisan who spent a couple of years in a forced labour camp to boot.

I really disagree wih the Albanian methods, even if they used violence they should have concentrated on the police military and not attacked civilians of the other ethnic group. Then again, I could not expect a very smart reaction by the Serb security forces that still kept (keep) the old habits from the Tito era.

Anyway, good luck to them. Anyway, this is just my opinion and not to be taken personally by anyone. Oh and I had a collegue at work who was a Croatian policeman and sniper during the war of independence, heard interesting stories from him. He went back to Croatia now.

Choctaw111
02-18-2008, 11:02 AM
Originally posted by leitmotiv:
...the Kosavars are not exactly sweethearts.

No, they're not. Have you been there are just what you have heard. That place is a $hit hole (and the Kosavars made it that way) and for the last few years I have been trying to wash myself clean of it. I do feel badly for the kids though and, sadly enough, they are being taught to continue in the ways of their parents and mentors. The Serbs and Albanians BOTH did horrible things, and neither of them can say that they were entirely victims in the whole mess. Oh, sure, one might say that they did this to me, so I couldn't just sit back and let it happen. This happened on a very large scale over there. Whole villages were wiped out, destroyed and set on fire, with the people still inside their homes. The smell of rot, stench and death was inescapable. Both sides were doing this. I still see those burned out homes and villages just wiped off the face of the earth. I still cannot believe that we are all members of humanity and that we all live on the same planet.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v343/PublicPhotoAccount2/KFOR2.jpg

Irish_Rogues
02-18-2008, 12:24 PM
Native after a while is merely the majority in that country

I sure hope not or very soon many country's will cease to exist. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

Choctaw111
02-18-2008, 12:35 PM
Is the UN and NATO still over there? I haven't really been keeping up on it. Does the US still have forces over there?

foxyboy1964
02-18-2008, 12:51 PM
Originally posted by Aimail101:
So your telling me it would be okay for the Scotts and Welsh to drive the British out of Britain?


Aimail, you need to take more care over what you type mate. The Scots and the Welsh ARE British. The British are, as I'm sure you know, the Scots, the Welsh, the English and the Northern Irish combined. It's bad enough that I've got to listen to Alex Salmond without getting it in the other ear from you. You know what I mean? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Airmail109
02-18-2008, 01:00 PM
Originally posted by foxyboy1964:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Aimail101:
So your telling me it would be okay for the Scotts and Welsh to drive the British out of Britain?


Aimail, you need to take more care over what you type mate. The Scots and the Welsh ARE British. The British are, as I'm sure you know, the Scots, the Welsh, the English and the Northern Irish combined. It's bad enough that I've got to listen to Alex Salmond without getting it in the other ear from you. You know what I mean? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nahhh the British are from Britany, Rome and Scandinavia.

The Welsh, Irish, and Scots are celts http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/mockface.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

foxyboy1964
02-18-2008, 01:07 PM
Originally posted by Aimail101:
The Welsh, Irish, and Scots are celts http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/mockface.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

I'm a Scot, but I'm not a Celt. British history is a lot more complex than you realise. I'd be very surprised if many Romans described themselves as British.

Airmail109
02-18-2008, 02:31 PM
Originally posted by foxyboy1964:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Aimail101:
The Welsh, Irish, and Scots are celts http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/mockface.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

I'm a Scot, but I'm not a Celt. British history is a lot more complex than you realise. I'd be very surprised if many Romans described themselves as British. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'd be very surprised if any of the above described themselves as British after all the militant Scots and Welsh I've met. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

foxyboy1964
02-18-2008, 03:20 PM
Originally posted by Aimail101:
I'd be very surprised if any of the above described themselves as British after all the militant Scots and Welsh I've met. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif
Well, I can't speak for the people you say you've met, but for me being British is not a matter of choice, it's a fact of life, it's in my genes.

BTW, if you ever visit Scotland, Wales or, God forbid, Northern Ireland I suggest you tread very carefully around this subject. You may find your thoughts on the matter are not "well received". http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Low_Flyer_MkIX
02-18-2008, 03:52 PM
I've met a few militant Englishmen in my time.

roybaty
02-18-2008, 03:56 PM
Hmmmm thought you were the United Kingdom, seems like there's a bit of sensitivity here.

Anyways i thought this was about Kosovo?

Carry on

http://www.improvresourcecenter.com/mb/images/smilies/popcorn.gif

SeaFireLIV
02-18-2008, 04:31 PM
Conan`s a Celt, on the Irish side. Really.

I have a book that traces all the way from his time to present day... Tells what every type of people today were in Hyborian times.

Low_Flyer_MkIX
02-18-2008, 04:32 PM
Perhaps this little tale from my predecessor may help you to understand, roybaty:

Low_Flyer_MkVb
Posted Jul 1, 10:19 AM


I know a Belarussian guy who never could get his head round that. We had a conversation once, in the company of two Scots and a Welshman (in a pub of course), along the lines of:-

Belarussian: "I was told that the Scots hate the English..."

Scotsman: "Aye, on occaision."

Welshman: "We hate them too..."

Belarussian: "So if I started a fight with Low_Flyer, you'd do nothing about it?"

Scotsman: "No, we'd all become British and knock the sh1t out of you."

Passing Irish barman: "Dat's a fact. And Oi'd be doin' a little more than' holdin' their coats..."

Back to Kosovo, gentlemen.

foxyboy1964
02-18-2008, 04:42 PM
Originally posted by Low_Flyer_MkIX:
I've met a few militant Englishmen in my time.

Yep, unfortunately it seems to be spreading. Salmond knows he'll never get a majority up here, so his game at the moment is to try and piss off you guys down south. To a certain extent it seems to be working. It'll be a sad day when 300 years worth of history goes down the pan because of some arse of a politician. Can you imagine a world without Britain?

Low_Flyer_MkIX
02-18-2008, 05:04 PM
Salmond has always struck me as mischeivious. The big problem that's going to arise is all this national devolution stuff is going to lead to more than a few disenfranchised English folks listening to the wrong sort of people. It's not helped by the rampant pc-ness here that frowns upon flying a St George's cross and endorses state benefit literature in eastern European languages. I hate to say it, but the 'foreigner in your own country' syndrome should have been nipped in the bud - it's spread more than a few roots.

foxyboy1964
02-18-2008, 05:37 PM
Completely agree with you LF. The people up here, and the Scots MP's in Westminster, know that it's wrong for Scots MP's to vote on English matters, but the party whip comes out and they follow the party line.

Everybody up here fully understands how the English people must feel disenfranchised. I dont know what they were thinking of when they gave devolution to everyone apart from the English. Crazy. It's anybody's guess how it's going to play out in the long run.

Low_Flyer_MkIX
02-18-2008, 05:53 PM
Well, the 2012 Olympics is a straw to clutch at - wonder if they'll let us have a Great Britain footie team?

Choctaw111
02-18-2008, 05:59 PM
Let's keep this thread on topic fellas. This thread holds a special meaning to me. I was there trying to "keep the peace" (and all that entails) several years ago. The Albanians have wanted their independence for some time now, but as you can see, the Serbs there are not too happy about it. Unfortunately, I can see things heating back up. I only hope that there is a way for them to sort it all out.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v343/PublicPhotoAccount2/KFOR2.jpg

foxyboy1964
02-18-2008, 06:24 PM
Originally posted by Low_Flyer_MkIX:
Well, the 2012 Olympics is a straw to clutch at - wonder if they'll let us have a Great Britain footie team?

If the "birds?" that Roybaty is posting in the other two threads are British we'll win everything http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif. Although they seem to have an East German look about them.

Sorry Choctaw, we're not hijacking the thread, but the Balkans isn't the only area in Europe which is currently examining it's constitutional arrangements.

Low_Flyer_MkIX
02-18-2008, 06:58 PM
Let's start another thread foxyboy. I'll respect Choctaw's service out there.

In all honesty, Choctaw - I think the 'where is it?' line rings true. It's lost media focus to other areas. That's a shame because things there might well escalate before many Europeans realise it's closer than they thought. From a British 'man in the street' point of view, it's going to need a massive educational effort competing with the far more trivial items on the news menu at the moment, that's before we get to other 'hotspots' taking up diplomatic and military resources. I'm afraid the phrase 'not my problem' will be much in evidence.

I might as well add that I feel any potential conflict in Europe is indeed my problem, but many of my countrymen will be either wary of another attempted snout in the E.U trough, or totally disinterested. There is a huge disenchantment with politics here at the moment, and worthy causes are going to suffer. Like you, I really hope the folks out there can sort it out themselves.

foxyboy1964
02-18-2008, 07:18 PM
Originally posted by Low_Flyer_MkIX:
I'll respect Choctaw's service out there.


Oh yeah, me too.

What I meant was that the Balkans should serve as a warning to several areas in Europe not to take the peace and stability they have for granted.

HotelBushranger
02-18-2008, 08:35 PM
Great, there's already been Serbian protests through the streets of Australia. We've had problems recently with the various Balkan ethnic groups, predominantly at sporting events: Croats vs Serbs, Albanians vs Serbs, Serbs vs anyone who picks a fight. There's a strong notion in the minds of many that once you emigrate to a different country, you leave all your past prejudices at the airport, however many of these European communities haven't seemed to have picked up that notion yet.

Choctaw111
02-18-2008, 08:49 PM
Originally posted by Low_Flyer_MkIX:


In all honesty, Choctaw - I think the 'where is it?' line rings true. It's lost media focus to other areas. That's a shame because things there might well escalate before many Europeans realise it's closer than they thought. From a British 'man in the street' point of view, it's going to need a massive educational effort competing with the far more trivial items on the news menu at the moment, that's before we get to other 'hotspots' taking up diplomatic and military resources. I'm afraid the phrase 'not my problem' will be much in evidence.

I might as well add that I feel any potential conflict in Europe is indeed my problem, but many of my countrymen will be either wary of another attempted snout in the E.U trough, or totally disinterested. There is a huge disenchantment with politics here at the moment, and worthy causes are going to suffer. Like you, I really hope the folks out there can sort it out themselves.

I agree. I haven't heard anything on the news about it in years, until now. Heck, even when I was there years ago, there was a lot of stuff happening over there, and no one (outside of there) really seemed to care. At least the media didn't. The only reason it made the media big time in the first place in the late 90's is because Bill Clinton needed something else on the front page of the news instead of the Lewinsky scandal, so he sent over the troops.

Messaschnitzel
02-18-2008, 09:10 PM
Interesting to note that the 21st SS Skanderbeg Division isn't mentioned here in the posts. Apparently this is still a touchy subject between Serbs and Albanians today. These people will even argue about whether the area is called KosovO or KosovA.

Gringo_UK1
02-18-2008, 10:20 PM
Nahhh the British are from Britany, Rome and Scandinavia.

The Welsh, Irish, and Scots are celts http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/mockface.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

Not exactly true..The Welsh are the true British people, they were the ones that occupied the Island of Albion or Britania as the Romans called it, the Scots are a mix of Picti and Scandinavian and the Irish are a mix of Britons and Scandinavian. The Celtic culture originates at the Unetice burial grounds in northern Turkey who then spread across Europe in the late Neo-lithic/early bronze age and were rapidly(archaeologically speaking) persued by the Roman expansion. Recent archaeological studies have shown that Celtic culture in the British Isles was limited to the tribes of the Cantii(or Cantiaci) (Kent) and Durotriges)(Wessex/Dorset), then the Romans appeared in Briton and shook the whole apple cart upside down http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif
Nuts..forgot the Blegae and Regnenses tribes...I hate getting old http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Gringo_UK1
02-18-2008, 10:27 PM
That whole region has been in turmoil for centuries, pretty much since the rise of the Greeks when the region was known as Dalmatia. I don't think they really know what they're fighting about anymore it's just ingrained so deep in their nature and culture that any excuse suffices these days http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif
PLZ ignore this post, I got my regions mixed up again (don't you love getting old and senile http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_redface.gif)

Brain32
02-19-2008, 12:36 AM
Originally posted by Gringo_UK1:
That whole region has been in turmoil for centuries, pretty much since the rise of the Greeks when the region was known as Dalmatia. I don't think they really know what they're fighting about anymore it's just ingrained so deep in their nature and culture that any excuse suffices these days http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif
WTF dude? You have no clue about the region whatsoever. Dalmatia has nothing to do with it, it's hundreds of miles away, in my country - Croatia.

This is exactly what the problem is all about, bunch of people who can't even find the Balkans *****ula on the map find them selves fit to draw borders for nations living on it. I'm getting properly sick of it. The arrogant Western Europe politics calls people on Balkans primitive and war-loving, BS. While most of the nations of todays highly developed Western Europe still were on chasing sheeps through forrests level, we had kingdoms, law system, religion(and thus education), nations here know not of slavery BTW, so who do they call primitive?

Your politicians will never learn it seems, every single time they involve they just create a reason for a future confrontation...ignorance and shortsightedness is humanities worst enemy, yet we never seem to really understand that, then again "maybe" it all just about individual intrests...

Gringo_UK1
02-19-2008, 01:17 AM
My sincere apologies, you're perfectly correct..I'll blame it on another sleepless night and encroaching senility http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif And i agree fully with your statement about outside meddling making things worse.

Brain32
02-19-2008, 01:49 AM
It's OK m8, also while my post may had sounded a bit harsh, it wasn't aimed at you or anybody here but the guys on top that are making the decisions http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Gringo_UK1
02-19-2008, 01:52 AM
NP, I didn't take it as personal http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif Thanks for correcting me though http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

CzechTexan
02-19-2008, 09:11 AM
I'm afraid this does start a dangerous precedent. I side with Spain and Russia and I think they are right.

Now, we have this precedent rule of regions seceding from a particular country and the UN saying it's OK-and defending the secessionists! It's a way for the world-wide-left to breakup more powerful countries and to make them weaker.

Just imagine how many times this will replay in the future. Sorry Kosovars, this is not just about you. It's about the future dissolution of many of the countries we know today.

Beware Europe, you're creating your own demise. Your muslim immigrants will soon demand their own place.

As for my president jorge bush- another blundering trap he's fallen into with the UN. Many people hate the USA and would like to see its dissolution into tiny parts.

If you don't know, America is being invaded by Mexicans. California and Texas (among other states) will soon have a majority population of Mexicans. Eventually, Cal and Texas will become like Kosovo. They'll get some political leaders to create excitement for secession. They might even start a small war and claim to be victims so that the UN will take their side.

Our leaders in the West are not very smart. Our enemies are making fools of us...and just waiting...

leitmotiv
02-19-2008, 10:10 AM
Of course it is dangerous, and it is as justifiable as allowing Hitler to carve up Czechoslovakia on the basis of "liberating" the "oppressed" German minority in 1938. The Serbs are no darlings but neither are the Albanians---probably the worst thieves in Europe. This is yet another feel good exercise by half-wits.

SeaFireLIV
02-19-2008, 10:15 AM
Originally posted by CzechTexan:


Beware Europe, you're creating your own demise. Your muslim immigrants will soon demand their own place.

As for my president jorge bush- another blundering trap he's fallen into with the UN. Many people hate the USA and would like to see its dissolution into tiny parts.

If you don't know, America is being invaded by Mexicans. California and Texas (among other states) will soon have a majority population of Mexicans. Eventually, Cal and Texas will become like Kosovo. They'll get some political leaders to create excitement for secession. They might even start a small war and claim to be victims so that the UN will take their side.

Our leaders in the West are not very smart. Our enemies are making fools of us...and just waiting...


Now this is where people start to take advantage of a civilised discussion to start going extreme. Muslims wanting their own land in europe? Nonsense. Won`t happen.

roybaty
02-19-2008, 10:30 AM
Here we go http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7252874.stm

SeaFireLIV
02-19-2008, 10:47 AM
Originally posted by roybaty:
Here we go http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7252874.stm

Yes, seen it on the news. I knew it.
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/sadeyes.gif

I can`t understand why they gave Kosovo recognition. couldn`t they see that this would start problems? what? Just because a few years of peace have gone we can now give Kosovo independence?

Why couldn`t they just have let things ride carefully on as they were and just moniter? But oh no, we must be clever now and do the same mistake that other people make in history. sheeesh!

Any logical Human being can see this being a saga that could turn out the same as the Middle East and Israel. Perhaps even flare up the whole troubles again big time.


Oh well, perhaps the powers that be do know better and things will settle down. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

Airmail109
02-19-2008, 10:52 AM
Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by roybaty:
Here we go http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7252874.stm

Yes, seen it on the news. I knew it.
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/sadeyes.gif

I can`t understand why they gave Kosovo recognition. couldn`t they see that this would start problems? what? Just because a few years of peace have gone we can now give Kosovo independence?

Why couldn`t they just have let things ride carefully on as they were and just moniter? But oh no, we must be clever now and do the same mistake that other people make in history. sheeesh!

Any logical Human being can see this being a saga that could turn out the same as the Middle East and Israel. Perhaps even flare up the whole troubles again big time.


Oh well, perhaps the powers that be do know better and things will settle down. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>



Theres enough popular support for independence and hostility toward Serbs amongst Albanian Kosovans that if Kosovo was handed back to Serbia you can be damn sure there'd be even worse violence when the Serbs try to quell the population.

Don't be so short sighted, it's the best solution to a seeming impossible one.

leitmotiv
02-19-2008, 10:53 AM
CzechT is damn right. Majority Latino schools in California have had their American flags taken down and the Mexican flag run up in its place. Here is a sample of incidents:

http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en-us&q=...ol&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8 (http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en-us&q=mexican+flag+raised+at+california+school&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8)

As a lifelong Californian, I am not quite ready to surrender my homeland to irredentists.

Airmail109
02-19-2008, 10:55 AM
Originally posted by CzechTexan:
I'm afraid this does start a dangerous precedent. I side with Spain and Russia and I think they are right.

Now, we have this precedent rule of regions seceding from a particular country and the UN saying it's OK-and defending the secessionists! It's a way for the world-wide-left to breakup more powerful countries and to make them weaker.

Just imagine how many times this will replay in the future. Sorry Kosovars, this is not just about you. It's about the future dissolution of many of the countries we know today.

Beware Europe, you're creating your own demise. Your muslim immigrants will soon demand their own place.

As for my president jorge bush- another blundering trap he's fallen into with the UN. Many people hate the USA and would like to see its dissolution into tiny parts.

If you don't know, America is being invaded by Mexicans. California and Texas (among other states) will soon have a majority population of Mexicans. Eventually, Cal and Texas will become like Kosovo. They'll get some political leaders to create excitement for secession. They might even start a small war and claim to be victims so that the UN will take their side.

Our leaders in the West are not very smart. Our enemies are making fools of us...and just waiting...

you freaking *******, Albanians are the majority in Kosovo, and Mexicans arnt the majority in Californa. Cant compare the two. Yes it does change things a little, its about damn time China stopped interfering in Tibet.

leitmotiv
02-19-2008, 10:56 AM
Theres enough popular support for independence and hostility toward Serbs amongst Albanian Kosovans that if Kosovo was handed back to Serbia you can be damn sure there'd be even worse violence when the Serbs try to quell the population.

Don't be so short sighted, it's the best solution to a seeming impossible one.[/QUOTE]

Wondrous argument for supineness.

leitmotiv
02-19-2008, 11:00 AM
Originally posted by Aimail101:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by CzechTexan:
I'm afraid this does start a dangerous precedent. I side with Spain and Russia and I think they are right.

Now, we have this precedent rule of regions seceding from a particular country and the UN saying it's OK-and defending the secessionists! It's a way for the world-wide-left to breakup more powerful countries and to make them weaker.

Just imagine how many times this will replay in the future. Sorry Kosovars, this is not just about you. It's about the future dissolution of many of the countries we know today.

Beware Europe, you're creating your own demise. Your muslim immigrants will soon demand their own place.

As for my president jorge bush- another blundering trap he's fallen into with the UN. Many people hate the USA and would like to see its dissolution into tiny parts.

If you don't know, America is being invaded by Mexicans. California and Texas (among other states) will soon have a majority population of Mexicans. Eventually, Cal and Texas will become like Kosovo. They'll get some political leaders to create excitement for secession. They might even start a small war and claim to be victims so that the UN will take their side.

Our leaders in the West are not very smart. Our enemies are making fools of us...and just waiting...

you freaking dubass, Albanians are the majority in Kosovo, and Mexicans arnt the majority in Californa. Cant compare the two. Yes it does change things a litte, its about damn time China stopped interfering in Tibet. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Compounding folly with ignorance. They are the majority in L.A., the biggest city in the state, and in many other cities in the state. At the rate of the invasion, they will have a majority statewide soon.

By the way, are you aware these cute invaders are killing blacks who move into their neighborhoods in L.A.?

http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intelreport/article.jsp?aid=722

leitmotiv
02-19-2008, 11:02 AM
The absolute ignorance of these "feel good" types astounds me beyond belief.

Airmail109
02-19-2008, 11:05 AM
I personally don't see how Mexicans invading your country because your ******ed enough to let them in has anyting to do with the Kosovo problem, right wing bollocks If I ever heard it.

Tell me where exactly are the Kosovans who have lived there for centuries going to go, If you give it back to Serbia. Don't forget that, they have been there for centuries, cocaine snorting Mexicans havnt.

Messaschnitzel
02-19-2008, 11:07 AM
Current events indicate that the Serbs living north of the Ibar river that divides the city of Kosovska Mitrovica may declare independence from Kosovo in the future. The fact that Serbia lies north of the Ibar would work geographically, and logistically in their favor.

It remains to be seen what will happen if they do declare independence. Will the nations that actively supported the Albanian Kosovars' push for independence support or deny the Serb Kosovars wish for the same in their area? Most likely the Albanian population of the new state of Kosovo will do everything that they can to prevent a separation of a part from their new country, effectively reversing their role as "rebels" to the "The State".

In the event that an attempt at independence is unsuccessful, this geographic area is always going to be a problem for the new powers in Kosovo, because the Serbs living there will consider themselves to be citizens of Serbia, especially if they are continually supplied by Serbia proper.

There also remains the problem of other places that are entertaining ideas of independence, such as the Republic of Srpska, Chechnya, Taiwan, etc. They all have an argument in that they feel that they would be better off if they were on their own, similar to when the colonies in America decided to declare their own independence.

There is going to be trouble when outside sources decide who may declare independence and who may not. I suppose there will be U.N. meeting to set the parameters for this as well.

Airmail109
02-19-2008, 11:08 AM
Originally posted by Messaschnitzel:
Current events indicate that the Serbs living north of the Ibar river that divides the city of Kosovska Mitrovica may declare independence from Kosovo in the future. The fact that Serbia lies north of the Ibar would work geographically, and logistically in their favor.

It remains to be seen what will happen if they do declare independence. Will the nations that actively supported the Albanian Kosovars' push for independence support or deny the Serb Kosovars wish for the same in their area? Most likely the Albanian population of the new state of Kosovo will do everything that they can to prevent a separation of a part from their new country, effectively reversing their role as "rebels" to the "The State".

In the event that an attempt at independence is unsuccessful, this geographic area is always going to be a problem for the new powers in Kosovo, because the Serbs living there will consider themselves to be citizens of Serbia, especially if they are continually supplied by Serbia proper.

There also remains the problem of other places that are entertaining ideas of independence, such as the Republic of Srpska, Chechnya, Taiwan, etc. They all have an argument in that they feel that they would be better off if they were on their own, similar to when the colonies in America decided to declare their own independence.

There is going to be trouble when outside sources decide who may declare independence and who may not. I suppose there will be U.N. meeting to set the parameters for this as well.

Taiwan is independant, its not entertaining ideas of independence. good post though.

leitmotiv
02-19-2008, 11:13 AM
Originally posted by Aimail101:
I personally don't see how Mexicans invading your country because your ******ed enough to let them in has anyting to do with the Kosovo problem, right wing bollocks If I ever heard it.

Tell me where exactly are the Kosovans who have lived their for centuries going to go, If you give it back to Serbia. Don't forget that, they have been their for centuries, cocaine snorting Mexicans havnt.

The correct term is "Kosovars." They can return to Albania, and allow the province of Serbia to return to being Serb, as it was until the invasion in the last century.

The will of a bunch of corrupt politicians and businesspeople is not the will of the American people.

SeaFireLIV
02-19-2008, 11:25 AM
What part of "Oh well, perhaps the powers that be do know better and things will settle down. ", did you both not understand?

Or did you just want to shout at someone today?

I suggest Leitmotiv and Aimail read rather than leap up spasmodically like rabid hyaenas on heat.

Airmail109
02-19-2008, 11:27 AM
Originally posted by leitmotiv:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Aimail101:
I personally don't see how Mexicans invading your country because your ******ed enough to let them in has anyting to do with the Kosovo problem, right wing bollocks If I ever heard it.


Tell me where exactly are the Kosovans who have lived their for centuries going to go, If you give it back to Serbia. Don't forget that, they have been their for centuries, cocaine snorting Mexicans havnt.

The correct term is "Kosovars." They can return to Albania, and allow the province of Serbia to return to being Serb, as it was until the invasion in the last century.

The will of a bunch of corrupt politicians and businesspeople is not the will of the American people. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>



Or how about returning it to Albanian hands, as it was before the 12th Century?

Also how do you propose that Europe would deal with the massive influx of Kosovans?

The only time Kosovo has been Serbian was from 1190 to the end of the 1300s. In 1389, in the famous Battle of Kosovo Polje, the Serbs and their allies were defeated by the Ottoman Turks and shortly Kosovo became part of the Ottoman Empire. Albanians started to move back into Kosovo after.

The Serbians are crying about something they lost centuries ago that was never theirs in the first place.

Im sick of this revisionism that has prevailed across the years among critics of Kosovo's desire for independence. Much of it comes from ignorance. A part of it derives from racism: inscrutable, impoverished, Muslim, their language and culture unlike any other in Europe, Kosovo Albanians are an easy "wigger" target for the self-satisfied elements of Western Europe's pseudo-political classes.

Messaschnitzel
02-19-2008, 11:46 AM
Originally posted by Aimail101:

Taiwan is independant, its not entertaining ideas of independence. good post though.

Do you really think so? Read these:

Read This (http://www.yaledailynews.com/articles/view/23185)

Read this Too (http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=007Q6w)

What creates this situation is that China is involved. If it were a smaller, less powerful opposing nation involved, the matter would have been resolved sooner, rather than never. With the military buildup that China is doing now, the possibility of an invasion of Taiwan is becoming more and more of a reality in the future.

Who would have thought that the Soviet Union could get away with the invasions of Hungary and Czechoslovakia, if they were were told that it could happen in the future.

Tell me what you think.

Choctaw111
02-19-2008, 12:57 PM
Man, this thread has turned into a real mess again. What is going on in here? Now we have forum members hurling insults and name calling?

DuxCorvan
02-19-2008, 01:02 PM
-nevermind- http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/halo.gif

Messaschnitzel
02-19-2008, 01:17 PM
Originally posted by Choctaw111:
Man, this thread has turned into a real mess again. What is going on in here? Now we have forum members hurling insults and name calling?

Parliament is now in session. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif

SeaFireLIV
02-19-2008, 01:23 PM
Originally posted by DuxCorvan:
-nevermind- http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/halo.gif

Playing safe, Dux? I don`t blame you with the pent-up heat around here.

Sorry, rest of you chaps, but when I get verbally attacked I find it hard not to fight back. I don`t like it when certain people play nice then suddenly switch to aggressive mode in an attempt to ruffle me. The pompous `they`re too stupid to understand` talk annoys me too. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

There`s a nice way to explain things and educate and the stupid way to try and educate which usually results in a fist to the face.

DKoor
02-19-2008, 01:29 PM
Originally posted by Choctaw111:
Man, this thread has turned into a real mess again. What is going on in here? Now we have forum members hurling insults and name calling? Ye.... and imagine what'd they do if this isn't about Kosovo and Metohija.... if it's about some nearer countries or even their homelands? I mean.... when they got so winded up 'cos of some country which name they can't even spell right you can expect just about everything.

roybaty
02-19-2008, 02:23 PM
Oh no the control rods are jammed.

http://www.homesoft.gen.tr/images/radiation.gif

DuxCorvan
02-19-2008, 02:39 PM
Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:
Playing safe, Dux? I don`t blame you with the pent-up heat around here.

Nay, I was about to comment about the curious statement below with the included map, before things got heated.


Originally posted by CzechTexan:
If you don't know, America is being invaded by Mexicans. California and Texas (among other states) will soon have a majority population of Mexicans. Eventually, Cal and Texas will become like Kosovo. They'll get some political leaders to create excitement for secession. They might even start a small war and claim to be victims so that the UN will take their side.

Well, I thought it was EXACTLY the reverse situation in the 1800s...

http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/atlas_mexico/war_with_texas_1835.jpg

leitmotiv
02-19-2008, 02:52 PM
It was a fair and square force majeure grab. Do you expect an apology? Perhaps Spain would enjoy a rerun of the Moors based on their claims?

Obviously, it has little to do with right and much to do with will. Does the United States wish to import Mexico's unwanted illiterate peasantry and bloody awful gangsters? Clearly most Americans, including immigrants who came here legally do not, as would any sane nation. If the American people lack the will to protect their hard-grabbed territory, then we deserve to sink into the wreck we will become trying to pay for these people.

I enjoy a gang of hard-playing bandits from way back, like Europeans, playing magnanimous with other's land. It is truly delicious.

Messaschnitzel
02-19-2008, 03:06 PM
I think that it is ironic that Mexico gained their independence from Spain, only to turn around and lay claim toland that was part of the Spanish Empire. These expanded lands that Mexico said were traditionally theirs were gained through right by conquest by Conquistadores. If anything, they do not have the right to lay claim to any land but Mexico prior to the Conquista.

DuxCorvan
02-19-2008, 03:06 PM
Originally posted by leitmotiv:
It was a fair and square force majeure grab. Do you expect an apology? Perhaps Spain would enjoy a rerun of the Moors based on their claims?

Apology? No. That land was Mexican, not Spanish. The Mexicans had rebelled time before. We were happy that you nailed them.

As for the Moors, well, they were mostly no Moors, but Spanish Romans converted to Islam. And no, I wouldn't enjoy them coming back, since I love wine, ham and bacon.


I enjoy a gang of hard-playing bandits from way back, like Europeans, playing magnanimous with other's land. It is truly delicious.

Well, unless you're a Native or African-American, those hard-playing bandits were your grandparents -those Europeans who went there to play hard- not ours -who stayed here, playing... tennis?

But, hey, don't take it to heart. I'm not trying to state any supposed historical wrong nor anything. Just found curious that was the thing that happened there in the 1830s, you know, foreigners occupying massively a territory and then claiming it as theirs.

No hard feelings, eh? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Choctaw111
02-19-2008, 06:05 PM
Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DuxCorvan:
-nevermind- http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/halo.gif

Sorry, rest of you chaps, but when I get verbally attacked I find it hard not to fight back. I don`t like it when certain people play nice then suddenly switch to aggressive mode in an attempt to ruffle me. The pompous `they`re too stupid to understand` talk annoys me too. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

There`s a nice way to explain things and educate and the stupid way to try and educate which usually results in a fist to the face. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thats a part of the reason why the Kosovars created such a mess in the first place. One person did something to someone else, and they just couldn't let it slide...can't just let someone walk all over you, you have to show then they can't do that and get away with it...sheesh. I know, I have been guilty of that same behavior many times before and it's gained me somewhat of a reputation. Don't get me wrong. I can be a really nice guy, just don't pi$$ me off.
Can't we all just get along? As the history of his planet has taught us time and again...I guess we can't.
Here's to Utopia...Yeah, right

iamdemon
02-19-2008, 06:35 PM
Now they can sponge off the European Community http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

SlowBurn68
02-19-2008, 07:50 PM
Originally posted by iamdemon:
Now they can sponge off the European Community http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

Well that statement was incredably thought out and insightful... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

leitmotiv
02-19-2008, 11:04 PM
Originally posted by DuxCorvan:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by leitmotiv:
It was a fair and square force majeure grab. Do you expect an apology? Perhaps Spain would enjoy a rerun of the Moors based on their claims?

Apology? No. That land was Mexican, not Spanish. The Mexicans had rebelled time before. We were happy that you nailed them.

As for the Moors, well, they were mostly no Moors, but Spanish Romans converted to Islam. And no, I wouldn't enjoy them coming back, since I love wine, ham and bacon.


I enjoy a gang of hard-playing bandits from way back, like Europeans, playing magnanimous with other's land. It is truly delicious.

Well, unless you're a Native or African-American, those hard-playing bandits were your grandparents -those Europeans who went there to play hard- not ours -who stayed here, playing... tennis?

But, hey, don't take it to heart. I'm not trying to state any supposed historical wrong nor anything. Just found curious that was the thing that happened there in the 1830s, you know, foreigners occupying massively a territory and then claiming it as theirs.

No hard feelings, eh? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

None at all. The very last thing I would do is try to justify grabbing California from Mexico as Manifest Destiny etc (although we were raised to do so). When all is said and done, the most unfortunate were the peaceable Native Americans in California who were successively run over by Spain, Mexico, and the U.S.

What is happening is ugly in Cal. Maybe Cal will revert to Mexican control? Considering Mexico is a pitiless oligarchy with no love for the vast miserable peasantry who are the majority, this would be tough luck for all concerned. The best thing that could happen would be a revolution in Mexico---throw out the oligarchs, bring in a fair govt, and end the misery of the poor. The idiot Americans in the govt and business who thought we could absorb millions of poor people on top of our poor citizens were mad and cruel. This policy was revoltingly cynical. The object was to bust U.S. unions, and undercut our poorest workers in any efforts to improve their conditions.

The cosmic joke is that last fall the majority of Americans polled believed fixing the immigration mess was the top priority. None of the the three remaining viable candidates of either party, Hils, Obama, or McCain, are showing any initiative in the matter because all want to appease the Latino voters (legal voters and illegal voters!). Thus, the matter is likely going to go as it has since the mid-'90's---completely out of control.

leitmotiv
02-20-2008, 10:47 AM
As for Kosovo, we saw what feel good nation building created in Zimbabwe---a nightmare. This is what happens when the witless play at diplomacy.

Tater-SW-
02-20-2008, 11:02 AM
Regarding the illegal immigration issue, I think that aside from vocal minorities on both sides the majority would be fine with similar numbers of people being let into the US, the issue is them coming over illegally, or being rewarded after the fact.

Personally, I'd shoot to kill on the border, but I'd also let almost as many in legally that want to come, I just want to vet them so that we are letting people in who are not criminals or terrorists. That's it. Lock the border down 100%, and let a million a year in for all I care, I just want them to fill out the bloody paperwork and have a background check is all.

My friend's wife came from the Dominican Republic legally, and it was a PITA. It's a slap in her face to let people just walk in illegally and reward them for it.

SeaFireLIV
02-20-2008, 11:16 AM
Originally posted by Choctaw111:


Thats a part of the reason why the Kosovars created such a mess in the first place. One person did something to someone else, and they just couldn't let it slide...can't just let someone walk all over you, you have to show then they can't do that and get away with it...sheesh. I know, I have been guilty of that same behavior many times before and it's gained me somewhat of a reputation. Don't get me wrong. I can be a really nice guy, just don't pi$$ me off.
Can't we all just get along? As the history of his planet has taught us time and again...I guess we can't.
Here's to Utopia...Yeah, right

I did see the irony, even as I got annoyed. But sometimes a guy can take a slap or two for peace and the other guy still refuses to stop. Eventually, you just have to slap back.

Airmail109
02-20-2008, 11:36 AM
Originally posted by leitmotiv:
As for Kosovo, we saw what feel good nation building created in Zimbabwe---a nightmare. This is what happens when the witless play at diplomacy.

Backed off because you can't answer my questions?

"Or how about returning it to Albanian hands, as it was before the 12th Century?

Also how do you propose that Europe would deal with the massive influx of Kosovans?

The only time Kosovo has been Serbian was from 1190 to the end of the 1300s. In 1389, in the famous Battle of Kosovo Polje, the Serbs and their allies were defeated by the Ottoman Turks and shortly Kosovo became part of the Ottoman Empire. Albanians started to move back into Kosovo after.

The Serbians are crying about something they lost centuries ago that was never theirs in the first place.

Im sick of this revisionism that has prevailed across the years among critics of Kosovo's desire for independence. Much of it comes from ignorance. A part of it derives from racism: inscrutable, impoverished, Muslim, their language and culture unlike any other in Europe, Kosovo Albanians are an easy "wigger" target for the self-satisfied elements of Western Europe's pseudo-political classes."

joeap
02-20-2008, 02:53 PM
Racism is evil, be sure.

Meditation on Kosovo (http://www.orthodoxcanada.org/comentaries/Meditation-on-kosovo.html)


The field of poppies sweeps like a river of fire that burns deeply into both Serbian and Albanian hearts. In the ancient battlefield the Blackbird Meadow only a little green from spring rains, the crimson poppies bloom like bloodstains on the landscape of the Balkan psyche. National myths rise with the mist, obscuring the purer visions of humanity. Who dies and who lives become questions lessened only by the anguish over who has a right to plant his dead in Kosovo's soil.

They hate because they love. Their singular tragedy is that they cannot reconcile themselves to each other's love. They love the land and cannot tolerate each other's presence on it. This land, this narrow strip of soil, this hallowed ground of Kosovo-metochia, is so deeply woven into the fabric of their souls that even those Serbs who have not yet seen it feel its presence in their consciousness.

The twisted remains a bicycle that perhaps had once made a child's eyes sparkle is slowly engulfed by the poppies. A flaming house burns without being consumed, branding the landscape like the fire of malevolence that torments the human soul.

If only the same fire could cauterise the wounds and refine the love from the human dross of fear and hatred. Is there no means of reconciliation? Must it forever be the destiny of Kosovo to harbour shattered lives and nurse the deadliest of human passions?

The land does not ask, "Whose bones are these that decorate my hillsides; whose broken dreams and conquered hopes smoulder in my valleys?" From her desolate hillsides a soft wind murmurs through the now stunted trees, whispers across the land and ruffles the poppies in the Blackbird Meadow. It is a mournful breeze the sound of lamentation. Like Rachel, Kosovo weeps for her children and will not be comforted because they are gone.

roybaty
02-25-2008, 11:09 AM
Well guess that's it then:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7262134.stm

TheGozr
02-25-2008, 11:47 AM
Again and again and again KOSOVO always a start

Time to not be intimidated They'll loose

Brain32
02-25-2008, 11:50 AM
Originally posted by Aimail101:
"Or how about returning it to Albanian hands, as it was before the 12th Century?
OMG what a load of utter bullsh1t http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

jadger
02-25-2008, 12:40 PM
"Or how about returning it to Albanian hands, as it was before the 12th Century?

And while we're at it, Germany needs to take back much of today's Poland and the Kaliningrad Oblast. it's not Gdansk, it's Danzig! kick all the Poles out again, just like they did to the Germans in 1945-48. It was German from about 1000AD after all.

Or, if you want to go more recent history, why doesn't Albania annex Kosovo, then Italy can take over Albania like it was pre-WWII

TheGozr
02-25-2008, 01:00 PM
France need to Claim the US..

jadger
02-26-2008, 12:29 AM
Originally posted by TheGozr:
France need to Claim the US..

Russia wants Alaska back

Spain wants Mexico and most of S America back. the Basques will separate though.

Vatican City wants half of Italy back, and will excommunicate your *** if you protest.

huggy87
02-26-2008, 09:06 AM
Originally posted by TheGozr:
France need to Claim the US..

We bought half of our territory from France for what? 14 million. You can't even buy a golf course for that now.

jadger
02-26-2008, 10:39 AM
Originally posted by huggy87:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by TheGozr:
France need to Claim the US..

We bought half of our territory from France for what? 14 million. You can't even buy a golf course for that now. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

legally, France could claim an unfair deal and demand it back. I know that happens every so often, a contract is unfairly beneficial to one side over the other, so the contract is anulled by law. Can't remember what the law is called though

roybaty
02-26-2008, 11:53 AM
We bought Louisiana (territory) and Alaska fair and square!

jadger
02-26-2008, 12:14 PM
Originally posted by roybaty:
We bought Louisiana (territory) and Alaska fair and square!

Well Canada wants Northern Maine (or should we say southern New Brunswick) back then, you cheated us out of it.

TheGozr
02-26-2008, 01:05 PM
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/56/New-France1750.png/589px-New-France1750.png

American out.... i said!!! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Also..

http://www.historyofjihad.org/france11.jpg

Today, we might not realize the significance of the victory of the Franks (Ferrenghis – as the Muslims called them) over the Arabs, a few miles south of Paris in 732. Had it not been for this victory, the whole of Europe might have been Muslim today, and the history of Europe and perhaps that of the entire world would have been far more bloodied and darker as is that of the Middle East today...

The Franks were the only ones to learn that the terror of the Arab Muslims can be neutralized only by a greater counter-terror. This counter terror has to be a mega-terror or a super-terror to strike fear in the hearts of Muslims that they give up their aggressive mentality on the pain of death..
or the Muslims, the scale of their slaughter at the hands of the Franks and the death of their leader caused a sharp setback and they had no choice but to retreat back across the Pyrenees. The defeat and slaughter of the Muslims was so complete and ruthless that the Arab-Muslims were never to return again to France till the 20th century as immigrants from North Africa.

What the English do ? pwaaa!

Whirlin_merlin
02-27-2008, 12:17 AM
Originally posted by TheGozr:
Today, we might not realize the significance of the victory of the Franks (Ferrenghis – as the Muslims called them) over the Arabs, a few miles south of Paris in 732. Had it not been for this victory, the whole of Europe might have been Muslim today, and the history of Europe and perhaps that of the entire world would have been far more bloodied and darker as is that of the Middle East today...

The Franks were the only ones to learn that the terror of the Arab Muslims can be neutralized only by a greater counter-terror. This counter terror has to be a mega-terror or a super-terror to strike fear in the hearts of Muslims that they give up their aggressive mentality on the pain of death..
or the Muslims, the scale of their slaughter at the hands of the Franks and the death of their leader caused a sharp setback and they had no choice but to retreat back across the Pyrenees. The defeat and slaughter of the Muslims was so complete and ruthless that the Arab-Muslims were never to return again to France till the 20th century as immigrants from North Africa.

What the English do ? pwaaa!

What a disturbed post.

jadger
02-27-2008, 12:52 AM
Originally posted by TheGozr:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/56/New-France1750.png/589px-New-France1750.png

American out.... i said!!! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Also..

http://www.historyofjihad.org/france11.jpg

Today, we might not realize the significance of the victory of the Franks (Ferrenghis – as the Muslims called them) over the Arabs, a few miles south of Paris in 732. Had it not been for this victory, the whole of Europe might have been Muslim today, and the history of Europe and perhaps that of the entire world would have been far more bloodied and darker as is that of the Middle East today...

The Franks were the only ones to learn that the terror of the Arab Muslims can be neutralized only by a greater counter-terror. This counter terror has to be a mega-terror or a super-terror to strike fear in the hearts of Muslims that they give up their aggressive mentality on the pain of death..
or the Muslims, the scale of their slaughter at the hands of the Franks and the death of their leader caused a sharp setback and they had no choice but to retreat back across the Pyrenees. The defeat and slaughter of the Muslims was so complete and ruthless that the Arab-Muslims were never to return again to France till the 20th century as immigrants from North Africa.

What the English do ? pwaaa!

Everyone knows that Muslim jihadists can't swim, so England had nothing to worry about. And let alone if they got to Germany, man oh man would those Muslims be in trouble, they tried to take Vienna a couple of times, but failed, what the Franks could do once, the
other Germans could do over and over agian just for fun.

And the Franks win one battle against Muslims and you make it out to be some big super-terror BS, it was a battle, not some competition to see who could out terrorize the other.

TheGozr
02-27-2008, 01:11 AM
watch again the map Jadger ...

jadger
02-27-2008, 01:16 AM
Originally posted by TheGozr:
watch again the map Jadger ...

what you talking about? does it move or something? The Franks were Germanic, Charlemagne's capital was Aachen after all. Just not as good of fighters as the rest of the Germans, as the Muslims got right to Paris, if they were good, the Muslims wouldn't of gotten anywhere near there.

TheGozr
02-27-2008, 01:41 AM
Well the birth place have different places as well and closer to normands
germans were like the franks a big mix ... i would even say more that the Germans of the time were more franks / gauls.. The origine is from southern Scandinavia for the peoples that you admire.. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

jadger
02-27-2008, 09:24 AM
Originally posted by TheGozr:
Well the birth place have different places as well and closer to normands
germans were like the franks a big mix ... i would even say more that the Germans of the time were more franks / gauls.. The origine is from southern Scandinavia for the peoples that you admire.. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

they still did in 6 weeks what the Muslims couldn't do, who cares if they're mixed.

TheGozr
02-27-2008, 11:37 AM
If i remember well we did it in 3 days what they did in 6 weeks.. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

jadger
02-27-2008, 11:55 AM
Originally posted by TheGozr:
If i remember well we did it in 3 days what they did in 6 weeks.. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

what? conquered 4 countries... when did you do that?

Choctaw111
02-27-2008, 06:33 PM
You are all still ranting in here? I thought this was about Kosovo's independence. So much on coming in here for the latest news about it.

roybaty
02-27-2008, 06:50 PM
Personally I feel Turkey is hypocritical acknowledging Kosovo and denying the Kurds.

Turkey faces the same issues and large minority concentrated in a large portion of it's nation.

jadger
02-28-2008, 12:20 AM
Originally posted by roybaty:
Personally I feel Turkey is hypocritical acknowledging Kosovo and denying the Kurds.

Turkey faces the same issues and large minority concentrated in a large portion of it's nation.

True, and what are they to do with the northern part of Kosovo? it is almost entirely Serb populated, and didn't want to split in the first place. Where did they get this imaginary line when they made up this new country anyways?

KosovaRepublik
06-03-2013, 10:49 PM
Read my post, the Serbs were the native people of Kosovo.

No, Illyrians came to Kosovo AKA back then Dardania. Serbs came from Russia to Kosovo, which they call their 'heartland".