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View Full Version : Ki-61 and 84 vs Corsair



BSS_Vidar
02-28-2007, 03:31 PM
Raising the Bravo Sierra flag!

In all my references, I can't find anywhere that the Ki-84's max speed is faster than 388mph.

In all my Corsair documentation, the F4U-1A's max speed is 417mph, and the F4U-1D's max speed with the newly boosted engine is 425mph.

Why is it that in a flat run at any altitude, the 84 outruns the Corsair?

The closest the best version of the 61 gets is just under 50mph slower than the Corsair 1A. Yet in-game, I get drug halfway across the PTO AFTER diving in behind the 61 without closing on him.

The Zeke's diving capability... That needs to be fixed over everything else.

Rant secured. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/typing.gif

Rattler68
02-28-2007, 05:07 PM
I'm just glad you can't catch me, Vidar!

slappedsilly
02-28-2007, 06:03 PM
Get in the Ki-84! Those American planes stink!!

ElAurens
02-28-2007, 08:21 PM
The Ki61 is easily outrun by the F4U.

Oleg modeled the Ki84 to the best speed attained at absolute maximum power. That 388mph figure so oft quoted is at military cruise power. The Hayate is no match whatsoever for a Spit VIII at any altitude or speed.

The Zeke is awful in the dive, and the A6M2 and A6M2-21 are undermodeled in speed at all altitudes.

The Ki100 is undermodeled in climb and turn compared to the less powerful and heavier Ki61.

Quit whining and stop trying to beat the IJN/IJA planes at their own game.

BSS_Vidar
02-28-2007, 10:10 PM
Oleg's Zeke awful in the dive you say? What do you base that on? It looses "some" roll rate at high speed? NOT GOOD ENOUGH M8.

In reality, the Zeke had NO roll due to controls COMPLETELY locking up past a 200+ kt dive. It also had a terrible roll rate to the right due to high engine torque on a VERY light airframe. This was the Zeke's Achilies Heel - and was highly scrutinized by allied pilots. No matter what, the Zeke would brake to the left with engine torque every time. Tacticly, hard to get away when you're that predictable.

IJN/IJA pilots NEVER tried to follow heavy metal in a dive. Yet when I fly the Zeke in-game, I can dive at almost 380mph (just under ripping flight controls off) and roll in either direction effectively into a bogey with no ill effects. Granted, it's a lot of fun, but it's so inacturate it's funny.

BTW, The captured Zeke found upside down in a marsh that the U.S. tested is often stated as being an M2.... WRONG, it was an M5.

As for the "whining" comment... Save it for the kiddies that post in here with no aviation degree or flight experience. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

ImpStarDuece
03-01-2007, 05:21 AM
Originally posted by BSS_Vidar:


BTW, The captured Zeke found upside down in a marsh that the U.S. tested is often stated as being an M2.... WRONG, it was an M5.


Lol. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

Its so hard to take you seriously when you spout drek like this.

The "Koga Zero" was an A6M2 Model 21, date stamped 19 Feb 1942. I'd love you to prove otherwise.

The A6M5 didn't enter production until the end of 1943.

So, there is a little matter of approximately 20 months missing in your timeline there Vidar

ElAurens
03-01-2007, 05:43 AM
Another USN whiner pwnd.

Sad really.

I can beat the Zeke with the very much slower than the Corsair, P40.

Honestly, some of the USN flyers think that the IJN/IJA planes should just magically explode on sight I guess.

I've flown the Zeke plenty of times on servers where the USN flyers, using their aircraft correctly, totaly dominated and there was nothing the IJN planes could do about it.

Learn how to fly and don't expect the IJN/IJA to just roll over and play dead when a blue painted aircraft shows up.

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

BSS_Vidar
03-01-2007, 03:49 PM
Yup, you're correct. The first one was the M2.. Infact, this exact plane...

http://www.j-aircraft.com/research/WarPrizes.htm

I'm refering to the one found fully intact upside down in a swampy marsh... which was a green painted M5. The testing of the captured M5 had more to do with developed tactics and U.S. aircraft performance than the M2 did.

Where did I say I had a problem beating a Zeke? I didn't... Nobody in my squadron expects to beat a Zeke in a turn fight. Thats just ignorant. I'm stating the facts of its in-game diving capability, not its damage model or its speed. You're quick to attack and insult instead of reading what is in the post. Furthermore, don't call me a USN guy. I fly the Zeke too. And I love flying the Ki-100, George, and Jack.

You won't see me in a Spit, Ki-84, and very rarely in Olegs German monstrocities. I enjoy testing myself against the obserd. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

chris455
03-01-2007, 05:10 PM
The Zero fighter found on the Aleutian Island of Akutan, flown by FPO Tadeyoshi Koga, was an A6M2 type 21.
Hit by ground fire after the raid on Dutch Harbor, Alaska, Koga tried to land his aircraft in wetlands. The Zero's wheels dug in and flipped over, snapping Koga's neck.
The A6M5 Zero was not operational at this time.

KIMURA
03-03-2007, 05:07 PM
Koga's Zero was surely NOT a A6M5 - it was a A6M2. Below a link that show the crash site and what happened after to Koga's Zero.

Koga^s Zero (http://www.pacificwrecks.com/aircraft/a6m2/4593.html)

BTW my impresion of the ingame Zero is that its rollrate at slower speeds is a bit undermodelled. And I got deep respect to online pilots who fly the Zero day for day vs later USN iron such as Hellcat and Corsair on ZvsWcat server. IMHO the Zero is nearly chanceless in case the later USN stuff is handeled correctly. Same on Ki-61/100. The only a/c that makes really headache to USN a/c is the threesome J2M, N2K2-J and Ki-84.

lowfighter
03-03-2007, 11:26 PM
Originally posted by KIMURA:
And I got deep respect to online pilots who fly the Zero day for day vs later USN iron such as Hellcat and Corsair on ZvsWcat server.

Yep, me too. I didn't fly online for a long time, but before I met such a pilot, he was in fact Japonese, on Warbirds of Prey, a fantastic pilot he was, and a great chap too. His username on hyperloby was A6M3(5?)ZERO.

JG53Frankyboy
03-05-2007, 07:40 AM
Originally posted by BSS_Vidar:
..........The closest the best version of the 61 gets is just under 50mph slower than the Corsair 1A. Yet in-game, I get drug halfway across the PTO AFTER diving in behind the 61 without closing on him.

The Zeke's diving capability... That needs to be fixed over everything else.

Rant secured. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/typing.gif

max SL speed of the ingame Ki-61 is ~475km/h TAS (on the crimea map) , the F4U's is ~560km/h......... you have proplems ?!?!?!?
ok, they both have the same max divespeed of ~850km/h - but at least the Hien is very bad accelerating.


you have proplems with the Zeros dive ?
most propably with the AI one (it realy looks like the AI has no divespeedlimit) - but with human flown Zeros you have proplems ?!?!?!?!

BSS_Vidar
03-18-2007, 12:52 AM
I should have been more in depth with my comment about which Zeke I was refuring to.

I am aware the Alaskan M2 was the first captured Zeke. That wasn't the point I was trying to make. However, there was another one which was an M5. Not a lot of info was gathered on the captured M2 in regards to comparing it to US aircraft - other than we mounted the fuel feed in wrong which initially made the M2's engine sputter out during Neg G push-overs. We didn't have it very long because the M2 got choped to pieces from rudder all the way up to the back of the cockpit by a nugget in a P-47!

The captured M5 I'm refuring to was test flown by Corkey Myer in 1944. This was the significant aircraft I was refuring to because it was directly compared to our aircraft in dozens of side-by-side test flights. Mr Myer (a world renownd test pilot)during WWII, Korea, and the 60-70's has a very extensive article in last months issue of WWII Fighters where he compares the M5's performance to several US aircraft. i.e. Hellcat, P-39/400, Wildcat, Corsair, and P-51 just to name a few.

He further discusses the very bad high speed handeling of the Zeke in a dive. It had the ability to go 388mph, but past 200-250 mph, both ailerons and elevator were completly useless.

In game, I've dove down in a Zeke at almost 400mph. While the flight controls were hendered, they were still quite effective as compared to Mr Myers accouts of flying the real deal. This is THE ONLY pet peve I have about Oleg's Zeke.

He also states, that later versions of the Zeke performed worse than the M2 because they started giving the pilot more protection there-by adding weight without replacing the engine. Sure, they got super-chargers, but that was to increase performance at higher altitude, not make them that much faster. It wouldn't have mattered anyway... The Zeke's light-weight airframe wouldn't have been able to handle the increased torque and higher airspeeds.

ImpStarDuece
03-18-2007, 07:58 AM
Originally posted by BSS_Vidar:
I should have been more in depth with my comment about which Zeke I was refuring to.

I am aware the Alaskan M2 was the first captured Zeke. That wasn't the point I was trying to make. However, there was another one which was an M5. Not a lot of info was gathered on the captured M2 in regards to comparing it to US aircraft - other than we mounted the fuel feed in wrong which initially made the M2's engine sputter out during Neg G push-overs. We didn't have it very long because the M2 got choped to pieces from rudder all the way up to the back of the cockpit by a nugget in a P-47!

The captured M5 I'm refuring to was test flown by Corkey Myer in 1944. This was the significant aircraft I was refuring to because it was directly compared to our aircraft in dozens of side-by-side test flights. Mr Myer (a world renownd test pilot)during WWII, Korea, and the 60-70's has a very extensive article in last months issue of WWII Fighters where he compares the M5's performance to several US aircraft. i.e. Hellcat, P-39/400, Wildcat, Corsair, and P-51 just to name a few.

He further discusses the very bad high speed handeling of the Zeke in a dive. It had the ability to go 388mph, but past 200-250 mph, both ailerons and elevator were completly useless.

The phrase the USN used was that control forces became "objectionably heavy, especially in the alierons" beyond 200 knots.

Not completely useless, but heavy. They would of used "immobile" or "ineffective" otherwise.

The TAIC test of the captured A5M states that the Zero can roll with a FM2 until 160 knots IAS and with the F6F-5 and F4U until 200 knots IAS.

The Zeke 52 could roll with the P-51 and P-38J (with boosted alierons) until 220 mph IAS and with the P-47 until 250 mph IAS.



He also states, that later versions of the Zeke performed worse than the M2 because they started giving the pilot more protection there-by adding weight without replacing the engine. Sure, they got super-chargers, but that was to increase performance at higher altitude, not make them that much faster. It wouldn't have mattered anyway... The Zeke's light-weight airframe wouldn't have been able to handle the increased torque and higher airspeeds.

"Performed worse" how? Absolute or relative performance? Turn, climb, roll, balance, handling?

The USN certainly didn't think the AM5 performed worse than earlier models

Their test data shows the AM5 is between 15 and 25 mph faster than an AM2, climbs up to 800 ft/minute better and has an extra 250 hp.

Plus, it had other improvements, like a different exhaust ejector system, shorter alierons and different wing tips.

As for the light weight airframe being unable to take the torque: Its still a 6,100 lbs airframe and its engine is only putting out 1210 hp. The Mk I Spitfire would of had worse problems, as, when rated at 12 1/2 lbs boost, the Merlin put out 1310 hp on an airframe weighing just 6050 lbs.

VW-IceFire
03-18-2007, 08:52 AM
IL-2 Compare lists the A6M2-21's maximum dive speed at a measly 630kph and the A6M5a at 730kph. Oddly the Corsair (and Hellcat) is listed as being able to go to 800kph and the Wildcat can do 820kph. Definitely the USN birds have the advantage but not a huge margin. Still...from 650kph and up all that the Zero pilot can do is pull out of the dive. He won't catch the Corsair (not a real human piloted Zero anyways) and the Corsair can still maneuver.

Still not sure how you could be out run by the Ki-61 which speed and overall performance is about on par with the Bf109E-7.

BSS_Vidar
03-19-2007, 12:25 AM
Don't ask me Imp, get the magazine and check it out yourself. It's still on the shelf. He flew all these planes, not me..er. except a P-51D about 3 years ago ;-) He breaks each flight test comparison down at several altitudes and airspeeds.

You can also catch him at all kinds of events as a guest speaker, i.e. Model shows, aircraft museums, etc, etc. He even was a guest speaker at our JaxCon model contest 2 years ago. Awesome guy!

JFC_Rautaristi
03-21-2007, 05:45 AM
Originally posted by lowfighter:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by KIMURA:
And I got deep respect to online pilots who fly the Zero day for day vs later USN iron such as Hellcat and Corsair on ZvsWcat server.

Yep, me too. I didn't fly online for a long time, but before I met such a pilot, he was in fact Japonese, on Warbirds of Prey, a fantastic pilot he was, and a great chap too. His username on hyperloby was A6M3(5?)ZERO. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I remember him too, he was A6m5bZERO IIRC.
I respect the zeke, great plane early war, then in 43, POOF, it's second rate trying to desperately fight back.
Lately i've flown the A6M3 in an 42 scenario trying to intercept A20s on dive bombing run. There's a challenge for ya, A20's faster. With human pilots they can actually BnZ you to death with little trouble.