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Pancrazio_380
11-04-2005, 12:26 PM
This has been an issue since IL@ Sturmovik 1.0 and persists into FB+AE+PF.

Is there a fix for this? Even at 110% and Full Prop/RPM I am not able to catch my flight and form up with them.

ashley2005
11-04-2005, 12:36 PM
i can do it with ease and so can everyone i fly with ...theres no issue with it ...the only thing that needs fixing is the pilot

cafflier
11-04-2005, 12:52 PM
Pancrazio, you are quite right. During a stream T/O, lead will be at, say, 40kts when you release your brakes. By the time you are airborne, he's at climb speed way out in front. Unless he reduces power a lot, you'll never catch him. The result is a long stretched-out disorganised gaggle, useless tactically.
How we do this IRL is for Leader to T/O and start a GENTLE left or right turn, reducing power to 60-70% so others can join on him before setting course.

VF-29_Sandman
11-04-2005, 12:56 PM
as soon as the plane in front of u starts to move, start ur roll as well. that way, u'll stay with the pack and wont have to play catch up. is the only way u'll be able to do it

cafflier
11-04-2005, 01:16 PM
WRONG!!! Even if you do that, lead is already going faster than you and accelerating. The distance will continue to increase untill you reach the same climb speed as him. But, you will still be in trail, just maybe not quite so far behind. You WILL be a sitting duck. You WILL be a less effective wingman. Unless your element leader either reduces power OR gives you a nice gentle turn OR preferably BOTH, you will NEVER join on him.

FoolTrottel
11-04-2005, 01:54 PM
Tip: Keep yer speed up, and at first do not try and match his altitude.

After a while, you will gain on him, and you can easily climb up to his level. Thus join him.

Have Fun!

x6BL_Brando
11-04-2005, 02:03 PM
Sorry, but "you will NEVER join on him" is not actually true. It used to seem like that a long while ago when I first bought Sturmovik - and the learning curve is rather long too - but I can cath up with an AI flight-leader and then keep formation on him without much difficulty nowadays.

Harder than anything is keeping from overrunning him once at cruising height. Those AI will reduce to within a gnat's hair of falling out of the sky sometimes - and pitch, throttle and flap juggling all come into avoiding stealing the flight-leader's position.

The best clue I can give is the oft-repeated one that I saw again just recently.
Don't try to climb with the leader straight off - concentrate on getting your plane trimmed and functioning in a very shallow climb - you need to keep your speed up and climb in a set of steps rather than flogging your engine & slowly bleeding energy and speed.

You'll catch him by the time the flight hits patrol altitude and then you have to avoid the overrun, like I said.

Pancrazio_380
11-04-2005, 02:06 PM
All I am saying is that AI planes in IL2 are super-pilots able to get the most maximum performance out of their planes. I, on the other hand, thinking it propr to not try a formation takeoff from the carrier, allow my lead to takeoff and then proceed myself. This inevitably results in never catching the **** flight...WTF!!

Fix this!!! I should not have to try my hardest to catch the **** lead, chucking my engine through Overheat damage and having no SA cause my eyes are his dumb ***.... BAHH patch after patch and the **** solo game sucks ****.

Multiplayer here I come!!! Even trying to shoot down enemy planes is impossible cause the much faster and better AI kill them all leaving me to burn gas and land... SWEET VICTORY!! ... Bull****!!!

jds1978
11-04-2005, 02:46 PM
yeah-its a drag (no pun intended)

i usually set myself as the squadron leader, therefore making them follow me...plus you don't have to listen to that one guy cuss you out because you are 30 feet off the pre-programmed flight path http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Coonskin
11-04-2005, 02:49 PM
This is not "correct" for the hard core simmer, but being that I'm still a very inept pilot, I find that once I'm off the carrier deck (or airstrip), I hit "A" and let Otto Pilet fly me to my place in the formation, then I can take it from there.

Not "realistic", but works for me.

fireman519
11-04-2005, 04:35 PM
I usually start a slow climb until I am higher than the leader.(slowly, as not to bleed off speed) Then I do a series of dives and climbs until I catch up. The dives bring my speed up to more than cruising speed, and the slow climbs I use, don't reduce the speed that much. In effect, you are increasing your speed overall, allowing you to close the gap. Works every time. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

-HH-Quazi
11-04-2005, 04:49 PM
I do what FT suggested. I generally do not climb in an ascent as steep as the AI lead, which allow me to slowly catch up if the AI's ascent is to steep. But if the AI's ascent is pretty steep, then I can catch up rather quickly.

One thing you could do in an offline capaigns is to choose the highest rank to start with. I know it takes away from progressing within a campaign, you know, earning what you get. But then you won't have to worry with this issue as you will be the man, not an AI. I have been playing this sim long enough to feel that I should be the highest ranking officer in any offline campaign anyway. So it wouldn't bother me to start an offline campaign this way. But it may bother you, or it may take away from the experience.

BigA21
11-04-2005, 04:51 PM
Well if the author of the mission(s) put in a reasonable speed and alt for first several "Forming up" waypoints, we should never have had this problem instead of AI screaming off on their own at redlines.

Zeus-cat
11-04-2005, 05:13 PM
As a number of people have said, do not climb with the AI. You'll never keep up.

Many missions have you circling the airfield once after takeoff, skip this and assume the final course immediately. You will get yelled at, but you'll have a good chance of climbing to altitude in time.

Zeus-cat

BaldieJr
11-04-2005, 05:14 PM
Originally posted by FoolTrottel:
Tip: Keep yer speed up, and at first do not try and match his altitude.

After a while, you will gain on him, and you can easily climb up to his level. Thus join him.

Have Fun!

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

mortoma
11-04-2005, 05:38 PM
I have no trouble catching up but some planes are harder
than others. All you have to do is learn not to try to
climb too agressively. Keep a balance between speed and climb.
If you are like say, number four aircraft and the other three
in your flight have taken off, as they climb keep them high in
your windscreen, almost out of sight. In this way you are
climbing but more of a "cruise climb" which is maintaining
a faster speed. There are cases of the DGen defualt cruise
speeds being set too high for the plane type. The FM-2 and
both Spitfire VC's ( tropical models ) have the default
cruise speed set at 400KPH, which is too high for the types
and even I could not keep up with the AI!! Those three planes
will barely go 400KPH, but the AI can maintain since their
planes do not overheat, but your does!! This is
why the AI can fly slightly faster than you can
in the same plane type. To remedy this, find
the plane types in question in either the Pacificplanes.dat
or the Europlanes.dat and edit ( lower ) the cruise speeds
as I show below in my example. You will find the two files in
your DGEN folder and you have to open them in Notepad to edit
them.
Here is my example:


Allies England CFighter F4F_FM2 370 2500 2500 Default

Note the number 370, which is the first set of numbers
over to the right. It used to be 400 but I changed it to
370. Now the AI fly at the lower speed. When
they fly the F4F-FM2. This of course only
affects stock Dgen campaigns and not DCG campaigns or single missions/QMB.

mortoma
11-04-2005, 05:48 PM
I can post a track of me flying in any Dgen campaign mission, with stock cruise speeds for all planes except for the 3 planes I mentioned in my last post, which had the stock cruise
speeds too high. And I can keep up in any of the aircraft. It can be done!!! Just keep your nose low and climb at a higher speed. Just don't climb too slowly by hauling back on the stick and having your nose too high with the resultant loss of speed. Just name the plane and I'll post a track and prove it can be done.

cafflier
11-04-2005, 09:39 PM
I did not realise that he was talking about AI.
With AI, I just let the Auto pilot do the joining.
I most often play online in either dogfight or co-op servers. Invariably, lead goes stright to max power on course and the rest of his flight turn into a disorganised rabble strung out over several miles of sky trying to catch up. If you do catch him, he will do his best to lose you by flying through every cloud in the area. He will also fly out of trim, porpoising through the sky while you push and heave on the stick just trying to keep sight of him. You can't really help scan for bogies, because your lead is so unpredictable you dare not take your eyes off him! He sights a bogey? He'll never tell you or his flight, will most likely break into you and after you've finished taking evasive action to avoid hitting him, you've lost him. Some players seem to have an grasp on how to lead a flight, but not many.
I wish someone would run a server where we could teach formation flying and tactics.

JG52_Helgstrand
11-04-2005, 10:05 PM
You've got to me more efficient in your take off and climb.
Don't wait for the dust to clear.
Get more take-off speed before pulling back on the stick, use the whole runway.
Pull up gear and flaps ASAP.
Climb at your planes recomended speed. If you do it right you can climb AND accelerate. If you are constantly loosing air speed you are climbing too steep.
Don't point your nose at the leader, you'll also end up climbing too steep.
If the leader circles "cut the corner" to catch up.
Trim for the climb.

Do that and you CAN keep up with the AI.
Remember the AI fly like experienced pilots. If you can't keep up then you need more experience... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

LEXX_Luthor
11-04-2005, 10:42 PM
Best solution is proper mission design and proper dynamic campaign mission generator design that creates waypoints after takeoff allowing formation to join up. I use this to get 6 x 3 = 18 AI bombers "SET" as escorts into good bombing formation before they leave the airfield area.

cafflier
11-05-2005, 01:29 AM
Thanks Helgstrand. More efficient, eh?
Why didn't I think of that. All this T6 time I've got flying and training in formation flying and all I had to do all along was just listen to you.
Let's use a real world example. In the T6/SNJ, we use 36'/2250RPM for a normal, sea level T/O.
In a stream T/O, where the runway is too narrow for formation T/O, Lead uses this power and, at 100ft., begins a 15deg. bank turn to the left. (In a 2 ship or 4 ship formation T/O, Lead uses only 30"/2000RPM. Wingmen use power as necessary to maintain position which they are able to do that because they now have a surplus over what the Lead is using.)
#2 watches his T/O and as Leads wheel leave the ground, starts his T/O and so on for 3 and 4.
2,3 and 4 will cut Lead off in the turn. 2 will join inside and stay there. 3 will join inside 2, stabilize and then slide to the outside. 4 joins on 2's inside then slides over to join on 3's outside, completing a Finger Four. Once the formation is established, Lead rolls GENTLY out of the turn on course and flies the formation where it needs to go. While in the turn, 3 needs more power than Lead and 4 needs even more than that to hold position. How, exactly, does "being more efficient" alter the geometry of a circle? The guy on the outside will always need to go faster than the guy on the inside. The guy on the inside is always slower. If Lead fies at the the upper or lower end of his aircraft's envelope, what's left for the wingmen? Lead DOES NOT fly his aicraft alone. He is flying A FORMATION.
Does this help explain the problem a little better?

Flying_Nutcase
11-05-2005, 02:53 AM
Originally posted by Pancrazio_380:
All I am saying is that AI planes in IL2 are super-pilots able to get the most maximum performance out of their planes. I, on the other hand, thinking it propr to not try a formation takeoff from the carrier, allow my lead to takeoff and then proceed myself. This inevitably results in never catching the **** flight...WTF!!

Fix this!!! I should not have to try my hardest to catch the **** lead, chucking my engine through Overheat damage and having no SA cause my eyes are his dumb ***.... BAHH patch after patch and the **** solo game sucks ****.

Multiplayer here I come!!! Even trying to shoot down enemy planes is impossible cause the much faster and better AI kill them all leaving me to burn gas and land... SWEET VICTORY!! ... Bull****!!!


As Lexx and BigA21 said, it depends on how the mission is designed. There should be a form-up circuit of the airfield or nearby or relatively slow speeds and climb rates from the field.

You're blaming the AI for doing what they're told. If I was the AI I would be a bit miffed by your comments. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

If the AI is taking all the kills, then go into the FMB and change their (and the enemy's) skill to Rookie. It'll make your life much easier until you improve more.

If you take the time to learn how to build missions, you'll be able to set everything up yourself.

JG52_Helgstrand
11-05-2005, 05:23 AM
Originally posted by JG52_Helgstrand:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by cafflier:
Thanks Helgstrand. More efficient, eh?

Whow dude chill, he was having trouble catching up with AI in this sim, right? Or did I read the original post wrong? It's a common problem, I found I could rectify using the points I mentioned, if you don't like them then don't read them.
Just trying to help, I won't bother again thank you....Runs back to the "other forum"...
Jeez dude drink a beer or something, or stop, whichever is the problem. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

mortoma
11-05-2005, 09:19 AM
Originally posted by JG52_Helgstrand:
You've got to me more efficient in your take off and climb.
Don't wait for the dust to clear.
Get more take-off speed before pulling back on the stick, use the whole runway.
Pull up gear and flaps ASAP.
Climb at your planes recomended speed. If you do it right you can climb AND accelerate. If you are constantly loosing air speed you are climbing too steep.
Don't point your nose at the leader, you'll also end up climbing too steep.
If the leader circles "cut the corner" to catch up.
Trim for the climb.

Do that and you CAN keep up with the AI.
Remember the AI fly like experienced pilots. If you can't keep up then you need more experience... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Exactly, this is what I was trying to explain. Althought flying the the best rate of climb ( Vr ) does not always keep you up or catch you up with the AI.
I prefer a cruise climb, which is what I do in RL flying when not under the direction of air traffic control. That way I get to my destination faster but still get to altitude eventually. Although I might not be doing myself such a favor at times, since I'm not reaching my cruise altitude as fast that way so I don't get to a good TAS as fast. I guess it works both ways. When under ATC, you are usually obligated to climb and descend at maximun rates in RL.

Tully__
11-06-2005, 11:22 PM
Originally posted by Pancrazio_380:
This has been an issue since IL@ Sturmovik 1.0 and persists into FB+AE+PF.

Is there a fix for this? Even at 110% and Full Prop/RPM I am not able to catch my flight and form up with them.

For pretty much all the default missions, the AI are set to cruise at 300km/h. The trick to caching up is to keep your climb gentle enough that you can maintain more than 300km/h in the climb. Once you've caught up, you can increase the climb rate a bit untill you're climbing at your squad mates' cruise speed and join the formation.

Once you've formed up (3-6 minutes usually) you'll find that somewhere between 50-70% throttle is sufficient to keep up, except in a couple of the Wildcat, I-153 and IL2 missions where you may need more.