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View Full Version : 4.01 Wheel Brake Action



VFS-214_Hawk
09-12-2005, 04:57 PM
I do like the fact that the over all braking is a bit more forgiving in 4.01...at least in the F4U. What I am not sure about is the pivit braking for 360 degree turning, i.e brakes locking up. It looks as if you have to almost be stoped in order to turn so tight. Would it be posible to make this a bit more realistic by modeling brakes that "lock" up at any speed with the correct results per plane in a givin situation? This may be a computer programing game engine item but I needed to ask. Maybe this is due to the fact that differential braking is not modeled....still wanted to ask.

Thanks

VFS-214_Hawk
09-12-2005, 04:57 PM
I do like the fact that the over all braking is a bit more forgiving in 4.01...at least in the F4U. What I am not sure about is the pivit braking for 360 degree turning, i.e brakes locking up. It looks as if you have to almost be stoped in order to turn so tight. Would it be posible to make this a bit more realistic by modeling brakes that "lock" up at any speed with the correct results per plane in a givin situation? This may be a computer programing game engine item but I needed to ask. Maybe this is due to the fact that differential braking is not modeled....still wanted to ask.

Thanks

MEGILE
09-12-2005, 05:02 PM
I don't have pedals with breaks on...

so If I was to press the B button at 100KPH my plane would insta flip, with fully locking brakes.. gee thanks.

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

VFS-214_Hawk
09-12-2005, 05:05 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Megile:
I don't have pedals with breaks on...

so If I was to press the B button at 100KPH my plane would insta flip, with fully locking brakes.. gee thanks.

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Argh, you posted before I edited. Thats what I figured but that might can be solved if you dont have the rudder pushed left or right. If that was the case, the brakes wouldnt lock. Ok, that is kind of the way it is now but I dont like the fact that I have to be almost stoped in order to make a pivit turn.

Thanks for the input!

MEGILE
09-12-2005, 06:22 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif
Sounds good to me.

F16_Petter
09-16-2005, 02:45 AM
Ground model in 4.01 or IL2 series is relly bad.

really.

Brakes that have no effectivity even at lowest speeds..

Aircraft brakes are in some ways more effective than car brakes... In reality, if u hit full brakes of a plane that taxies in around 3-10 kph it will stop INSTANTLY... that is NOT the case in IL2.

(airmech speaking here with lots of brakechanges on my hands...)

Problem is that there is no scalable braking modelled in this sim wich is hard for Oleg to give us a good ground handling simulation. He cannot give brakes too much power, because that would flip planes when they land... so.. IMO the brakes modelled in this sim is brake power used for LANDING only! (about 20%-30% of depressed pedals IRL)

What Oleg should do is to model brake power by this method:
The longer you hold brake key (digital input), the more power it applies to the pedals. If you hold it for 1 second it will brake 10-20% if you hold it for 3 seconds it will brake 50% and so on... (if there is time, why not put analog brake power input too... for those who have pedals)

A parking brake would also bee very much wanted!
The "chocks" only works on Ships and Experimental runways (stationary ships)
And dont think there is much work in adding a function to a keybind wich will hold full brakepressure, similar to the chocks function...

Some planes that are so weird to taxi (CR.42 & Heinkels are an example)

And why dont you try taxing in different weather settings... this one is fun.

Just a little clouds and winds, and planes become totally uncontrollable.. Seems like it doesnt matter that you power up your propstream over control surfaces, a wind of 10kph is effecting more...than the propstream.

Also the fact that the rudder can be held in full direction of opposite of the "torque" direction and the plane still goes straight at takeoff just makes me laugh...

I thought that the torque was induced mostly along the propeller shaft (Aircraft X axis or ROLL axis)
Sure it would perhaps affect the Z axis or Yaw a bit too.. but only to a minor value... Like it is today its just too funny..

IRL Rudder Control surface effectivness increases with increased power (airstream) by far more than torque affects aircraft in Z axis. If this was not the case, planes wouldnt be allowed to fly.

bah!

For Olegs ground modelling i give it a "C minus"
The rest of the sim is very good!
(There is no better)
So I rest my case.

3.JG51_BigBear
09-16-2005, 11:22 AM
I like the idea of increasing break pressure by depressing a key longer but I don't have a huge problem with ground handling in game as it is now. I don't doubt that its incorrect but I find that I have plenty of control with the unlocked tail wheel and the brakes as they are now. It would really be cool to see more realistic handling in BOB but I think it would end up requiring people to buy brake/rudder pedals.

BaldieJr
09-16-2005, 12:48 PM
Hold brake key and add small amount of rudder input. Whats the problem? Try holding your brake key while you wiggle the rudder: You get tiny amounts of brake, proportional to the amount of rudder used. No rudder + brakes = full brake.

Does anyone read game manuals any more?

billy885
09-16-2005, 01:34 PM
Right on BaldieJr, works for me also and even in those winding conditions they talk about above. Nope, no one reads the manuels or readme files anymore.

F16_Petter
09-16-2005, 02:08 PM
Okay....
Please do the following...

Take a Spitfire.. or P39 put it on ground... throttle up to about 30% and taxi up to 10 or 20 KPH.. then cut throttle fast to idle and STAND on the brake...

Its ridiculous how long the brake distance is...
Especially when speed is at its lowest... around 10-3 KPH why the "¤%¤#¤#""
wont the plane just stop when i stand on the brake??

Despite your non-rudder movements, manuals and readmefiles.. full brakes etc.. this is still not good nor realistic..

But hey... that just stopping.. It doesnt end there..

Lets talk about turning?
In order to turn in IL2 you need to stop first..
right?

Or?

Watch this...
http://www.flygflottilj16.se/spit_taxies.avi

The pilot applied very gentle braking on this vidoeclip... and he was far from braking full pressure.

Also note he brakes with R/H brake at turn and uses very little rudder input.

I want to see you do that with a spitfre in IL2 simualtor engine, with or without your readme´s & manuals or whatever..

Please provide a track...
Ill be waiting..

All im saying is that it needs some improvement.
And not all ppl have rudderpedals etc.. it You should be able to turn just as good as anyone that has rudderpedals, thats all im asking.

(dont know if there is diff.brakes if you have rudder pedals, but im guessing)

NonWonderDog
09-16-2005, 05:58 PM
Hmm? How do you propose to taxi a plane without using the rudder pedals? I'll admit I've never taxied anything without nose wheel steering, but taxiing without the pedals just seems odd.

And yes, differential braking is modelled correctly for Russian and British planes. Hold the brakes and use the rudder pedals to distribute braking power, just like in real life.

Brake modelling probably isn't all that complex, and I really doubt that the tires are modelled with Pacejka curves and slip angles, but that's not really the point of the sim, is it?

VFS-214_Hawk
09-16-2005, 06:21 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BaldieJr:
Hold brake key and add small amount of rudder input. Whats the problem? Try holding your brake key while you wiggle the rudder: You get tiny amounts of brake, proportional to the amount of rudder used. No rudder + brakes = full brake.

Does anyone read game manuals any more? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

PLain and simple, it is not modeled goo enough to resemble real aircraft.....PERIOD!

BaldieJr
09-16-2005, 10:48 PM
I can buy a computer powerfull enough to model a banana in amazing detail. The banana would be worthless to the hungry.

Its a shame this is too big to be in LEXX's sig.

EDITED because for some strange reason, my mind mixes up LEXX and p1ngu666.

F16_Petter
09-17-2005, 06:57 AM
Planes on ground in 4.01 move,turn and brake like pregnant cows.

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

zaelu
09-17-2005, 07:43 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by F16_Petter:
Ground model in 4.01 or IL2 series sucks.
really.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

We don't need to read anymore... so, from my personal part: give me a brake... will ya?

Some things are a little twitchie by the new improved ground model (ie differential braking and taxieing with some twin engine AC's) but, to say it suxx... pffft. I'm sure the flight model suxx too for you.

F16_Petter
09-18-2005, 01:03 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by zaelu:
give me a brake... will ya?
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif
Haha very funny...
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

BSS_Vidar
09-18-2005, 03:49 PM
The new breaks are practicaly unusable unless you creep, stop, then pivot when moving about on a flight deck. Land lovers have probably hardly noticed the difference in braking performance. When you creep you don't stop for several meters which is detrimental for safely taxiing about the flight deck.

A button with time delay for braking is a good idea for those not using axis braking. There should be some sort of delay, but if you're using pedals (as I do) you have axis input to control just how much braking you wish to put in.

The BSS frequently conduct carrier qualifications, and we use to have fun stacking the flight deck in the midst of flight ops. But no longer. Now we trap and respawn to a land base becuase moving about the deck is too restricted due to deteriorated breaking inputs in this last patch.

It was bad enough before due to not having dual axis for independant braking. But the hydrolic differential braking model has really hindered movement in a tight space - namely the flight deck.

BlakJakOfSpades
09-18-2005, 04:07 PM
take a plane where you can see the brakes being applied (il-2, fw-190) it is applied gradually, if you want to pivot hold the brakes down for at least 5 seconds then try

tomtheyak
09-18-2005, 07:18 PM
It's not just how effective the brakes are, it's the whole physics of how the a/c behaves in relation to the ground.

Try this an example - get in a powerful late war a/c of any country (though the reds are more noticable because of lack of directional stability) and t/o in external view - the skidding/slipping makes it look like the a/c is taking off from a sheet of ice. I've seen enough RL a/c taking off in my time that that just does not look correct.

And as for brakes not being effective enough to stand an a/c on it's nose, THAT IS WRONG for most a/c in the game, especially the inline engine fighters and in particular the spit, which required extremely judicious use of the pnuematic brakes else the a/c would be sitting on it's prop before you could say 'wow these brakes are good'.

If it was just the brakes then i could let it go, but it seems the physics are at fault. Hopefully this has already been addressed.

VFS-214_Hawk
09-18-2005, 07:36 PM
I guess its really no biggie....just that Oleg pushes for reality....brakes aint realistic!

BaldieJr
09-18-2005, 09:58 PM
Put your chocks in if you need to stop. I wish I could bind a chocks-in key for this thread.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

Jetbuff
09-18-2005, 10:34 PM
I really, really hope this thread was started tongue-in-cheek...

F16_Petter
09-19-2005, 11:36 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BlakJakOfSpades:
take a plane where you can see the brakes being applied (il-2, fw-190) it is applied gradually, if you want to pivot hold the brakes down for at least 5 seconds then try </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Its a nice animation, yes... just like the when you see control stick is pulled max left aileron doesnt mean that the aileron is maxed to the left.. right?
It takes some time for it to adjust to the stick. and is also a thing thats odd. the control paths are mechanical linkage (controlcables or rods) in 90% of all planes in ww2 and to my knowledge direct input only.
No damping or fluctuation or rudderlimiter etc etc that u can find on modern flight control systems in todays aircraft. If the sim should be realistic in cockpit animation, it should be linked with all control surfaces as same as input animations... but hey.. thats not the issue here...

Do i belive this brake animation really is just eyecandy?
Yes.

Dont really feel any differance in brake pressure of the different positions of the pedals in the animation.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BaldieJr:
Put your chocks in if you need to stop. I wish I could bind a chocks-in key for this thread.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Chocks only work on ships and on experimental runway = stationary ship.

I thought you knew this baldie?
YOU of all should, because of your enthusiastic manual and readme´s hobby..
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

This thread isnt all about ships. But i truly feel for you who have problems there, cause of the tight areas. However... flightmodel is more important, but i´d rather see a great physics model incorporated in next patch then a new aircraft.. but I guess im the only one thinking that way. I could go on about this for days... take the noswheel steering and model of that for example.. compare animation and physics.. oh well i wont start more trouble....
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
Originally posted by tomtheyak:
It's not just how effective the brakes are, it's the whole physics of how the a/c behaves in relation to the ground.

Try this an example - get in a powerful late war a/c of any country (though the reds are more noticable because of lack of directional stability) and t/o in external view - the skidding/slipping makes it look like the a/c is taking off from a sheet of ice. I've seen enough RL a/c taking off in my time that that just does not look correct.

And as for brakes not being effective enough to stand an a/c on it's nose, THAT IS WRONG for most a/c in the game, especially the inline engine fighters and in particular the spit, which required extremely judicious use of the pnuematic brakes else the a/c would be sitting on it's prop before you could say 'wow these brakes are good'.

If it was just the brakes then i could let it go, but it seems the physics are at fault. Hopefully this has already been addressed
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well said!
Nice to know that there are others with creative critisism in order to making this sim even more realistic!
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

NonWonderDog
09-22-2005, 09:23 AM
Brakes are definitely modelled as an axis. How do I know? There's a brake axis in the control list!

Brakes can definitely be applied gradually; it's easy to apply half braking when it's bound to an axis. It's a lot more realistic than tapping a key, too. The brake lever is tied to your axis in the same way as the control stick, too.

With that in mind, it doesn't seem unlikely that the brakes are indeed applied as gradually as you see the lever move.


And while the controls aren't intentionally damped, they're not always the easiest things to move. It's definitely a good thing that we can't put in instantaneous axis commands.

Monson74
09-22-2005, 09:44 AM
So - you say Oleg broke the brakes so you can't break? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

OY-THEIS
09-24-2005, 02:12 AM
The most efective brake?

dont deploy wheels, when landing http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

Cheers Theis

BSS_Vidar
09-24-2005, 06:10 PM
Both button and axis braking inputs have been adversly affected in the 4.01 patch. Whether using the button, or full axis input, planes still creep forward several METERS, even at slow taxi speeds. Plus you can not pivot on one main-mount until you come to a complete stop. This has been mostly effected on carrier deck operations.

Those flying primarily from land based airfields probably have not given this a second thought, but the problem is definatly there, and has hendered game-play for those of us who enjoy carrier ops.

F16_Petter
09-25-2005, 07:06 AM
About ships:
I belive there is a great difference if ship is moving aswell... But I guess it has to do with the flightmodel and physics.

Still... Its an issue where there could be some improvement!

Hope it will be better in BoB and that they will create a core physics engine for that simulator that will not be altered in patches!