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Gouldjg
08-29-2004, 12:11 PM
First I will ask the question.

Was many U-boat commanders discharged of duty?.

Just wondering about morale features.

Could this be a good mod to add to sh3 if not included in vanilla package?.

Then again would it do our heads in listening to a second officer reminding us of our mission success and morale?.

2 good films to think about is Red October and crimson tide although modern I am sure we had similar situations in WW2.

Dicpline extras would be nice aswell. You know the score. Bit like champ manager, crewe requests transfer if not treated fairly.

But on a realistic point I am just happy we have a crew and like other threads have suggested it would be great if we can re-skin them. My wife would be put on deck gunner and I will forever order her out in a storm.

Gouldjg
08-29-2004, 12:11 PM
First I will ask the question.

Was many U-boat commanders discharged of duty?.

Just wondering about morale features.

Could this be a good mod to add to sh3 if not included in vanilla package?.

Then again would it do our heads in listening to a second officer reminding us of our mission success and morale?.

2 good films to think about is Red October and crimson tide although modern I am sure we had similar situations in WW2.

Dicpline extras would be nice aswell. You know the score. Bit like champ manager, crewe requests transfer if not treated fairly.

But on a realistic point I am just happy we have a crew and like other threads have suggested it would be great if we can re-skin them. My wife would be put on deck gunner and I will forever order her out in a storm.

HeibgesU999
08-29-2004, 03:10 PM
The movies Crimson Tide and Red October are Hollywood garbage, and Tom Clancy is a crappy writer.

I doubt there were any cases of mutiny aboard any German or US Submarine for that matter.

hauitsme
08-29-2004, 03:47 PM
Tom Clancy a crappy writer? What, do you think his books are based on actual events.
You know what were real garbage movies? Definitely had to be ALL of the LOTR movies! And don't forget Starship Troopers. All 4 of those must be the worst movies from a book I have ever seen. Contact is another. Want me to go on? The movie that's closest to the book is 'Firefox'. Should have continued it with the sequel 'Firefox Down'. Contact would have been good but Carl Sagen dropped out of advising because they changed too much of the story. Hollywood is not alone in producing 'crappy' movies. They just have been at it longer than anybody else.

As to mutiny aboard Allied or Axis subs? I have not heard of any 'actual' mutinies, but I'm sure we'll hear about it if it had.

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Kejotikk
08-29-2004, 03:50 PM
Sounds like you could use some marriage counseling or a divorce there gouldjg. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

ashbery76
08-29-2004, 04:10 PM
LOTR has made over 2 billion world wide and won every award going, that facts disagree with you.

Gouldjg
08-29-2004, 05:01 PM
HeibgesU999
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>The movies Crimson Tide and Red October are Hollywood garbage, and Tom Clancy is a crappy writer.

Red October is a great film http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-mad.gif, crimson tide is not so good at all http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-sad.gif. But that is beside the point. The idea was to think about crew moral and possibilities for a mod.

Only good if this was a factor in the real war.

Now this is sad:-

I have just watched the shaky vid fir the 10th time and had to rewind a few times' as I was sure I spotted a man on the deck of the first ship during panning of the camera. I doubt it was but I now know the feeling of excitement for this game.

Love thats station comand screen. I thought it was damage control at first.

As for lord of the rings and SH3 all I can say is "My precious".

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/353.gif
Is anyone having problems running SH" with the latest Nvidia XP driver. It works a dream for Doom 3 which I do find a dissapointment, but is no good for SH". I roll back driver each time I want to play.

Have fun and enjoy your wait for the game. I want to coincide my divorce with release date http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/784.gif.

hauitsme
08-29-2004, 05:04 PM
Have you EVER read the books? Maybe 40% of the books were actually in the movies. Why make a movie about a book if you can't keep to it? Oh yea, money! We can make some money!http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v325/hauitsme/box2.gif

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HeibgesU999
08-29-2004, 06:38 PM
The weird thing about Starship Troopers, is that the movie is the exact opposite of the book. Anyone I meet who is thinking of a career in the military I always tell them to read Starship Troopers.

I like John Le Carre (although he's starting to rewrite his old books with different characters), Frederick Forseyth, and Trevanian.

I think a green crew could easily be put in a situation where they would panic, and repairs wouldn't get made, or made in time. This was the fate of many a boat in the last years of the war.

ashbery76
08-30-2004, 05:21 AM
The movie is better than the books!The LOTR books needed editing badly because tolkien refused having them edited.The movies did that for us.

macker33
08-30-2004, 01:14 PM
The book is nearly always better,directors nearly always wreak up a book by making it more screen friendly,they do it time and time again'
They say books and radio are better than film because the pictures better.Thats propbably true.

hauitsme
08-30-2004, 02:36 PM
Macker33 wrote:
'They say books and radio are better than film because the pictures better'
----------------------------------------------

OK, which is it? books and radio are better than film
Or? because the pictures better

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macker33
08-30-2004, 03:51 PM
They say the pictures are better because you see them in your mind....now,dont ever claim you havent ever learned anything by talking to me.

jmuhlman
08-30-2004, 07:24 PM
I have never read of any mutiny aboard submarines...I think the very nature of submarine warfare (the officers and crew being right next to each other constantly) made it pretty much impossible. in fact, when the german surface navy mutinied in 1918, it was the uboats who didn't rebel, and who where called upon to help get the surace ships in line. HOWEVER, I've read in several captian's accounts that individual crewmen and even captians had mental breakdowns during battle, and even occasionally going berzerk like the engineer in DAS BOOT. I've read of TWO captains who were shot for 'lacking in aggression' and many more I'm sure were demoted/or put on desk jobs/ or just sent to the loony bin for one reason or another. by the end of the war( when captains and crews where very green and allied asw had evolved to a deadly unbeatable machine),I dont think most crews actually lived long enough to mutiny! they were probably killed on thier first or second mission. most captains who weren't good captians simply died along with thier crew from making a simple mistake or other. david miller's "U-boats" describes several captains who commited suicide.

SailorSteve
08-30-2004, 09:46 PM
Macker, I've never learned anything by talking to you http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/mockface.gif . Sorry, couldn't resist. Actually, I agree with you 100%: After seeing Troy I was moved to re-read the Iliad for the first time in forty years. Now I wish someone would actually make a movie based on the (*#&@) book!

Now, back to the subject at hand.

Jmuhlman: Interesting info; I had not heard most of that. The U.S. Navy just transferred the poorer-performing captains to desk jobs, at least the ones who brought their boats back.

______________________________

The poster said "Join The Navy, See The World". So I did, and I'm here to tell you, the world is flat and blue.

Erich Hartmann
08-31-2004, 12:40 AM
Well, maby the game should sporadically if you are running on low morale, and under terrible conditions, like attacks by a destroyer put like in the movie a sailor with a mental break down, to lower more the morale and force you to take measures. It would be so cool!! (and realistic).

ubootkapitein
08-31-2004, 03:11 PM
There was an U-boatcaptain who surrendered to the british during the war... (with all hands including the boat..) The British tested the U-boat and learned how depth-charged the U-Boats on the best way!
In the POW other U-Boatcommanders gave him the cold shoulder!

macker33
08-31-2004, 09:29 PM
If in the game a crew member cracks up while being depth charged what options will you the captain have,or have we interpretted this whole crew morale thing wrong,

maybe crew morale only relates to effecincy,what would be good is things like practice drills improving crew response times,i just hope managing morale in sh3 is easier than handling morale in championship manager 4,if it is morale management is going to be a pain.

I often wonder why some uboat captains when they knew the war was going against germany why didnt they just sail into a nuetral harbour and just give themselves up.

i
ll⬠r
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jmuhlman
08-31-2004, 10:24 PM
here's some info from uboat.net:

The commander of U-505, Kptlt. Peter Zschech, committed suicide while under a heavy depth charge attack on 24 Oct. This was the only such case in the war. The IWO, Meyer, saved the boat and brought it back to port.

Kptlt. Heinz Hirsacker was condemned to death by military tribunal in 1943, charged with "Cowardice in the face of the enemy" - the only U-boat commander to suffer that fate, taking his own life on April 24th, 1943 shortly before his scheduled execution.

Another commander, Oscar Kusch, of U-154 was also executed but for "defeatism" after he removed the mandatory picture of Adolf Hitler from the boat and his IWO reported on him.
(this next part NOT from u-boat.nethttp://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
Kapit√¬§nleutnant 'Ajax' Bleichrodt, however, suffered a breakdown during a mission and handed over command to his IWO( I think I read somewhere that he actually had a ship in the sites of the periscope and walked away, saying he couldn't bear to sink any more ships), but he was well liked by Donitz and had won a knights cross, so he was switched over to training flotilla and actually promoted to command the 22 flotilla.

macker33
08-31-2004, 10:36 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jmuhlman:
here's some info from uboat.net:


Kptlt. Heinz Hirsacker was condemned to death by military tribunal in 1943, charged with "Cowardice in the face of the enemy" - the only U-boat commander to suffer that fate,

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

that is so weird,i only read the exact same thing today.

Its not a sub captain but the captain of the graf spee killed himself too,a good man.

i
ll⬠r
/========ll======&gt; ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

DSK_Kaleu_Kusch
10-31-2004, 10:19 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jmuhlman:
Another commander, Oscar Kusch, of U-154 was also executed but for "defeatism" after he removed the mandatory picture of Adolf Hitler from the boat and his IWO reported on him.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

this is a well researched issue and Kusch got a street named after him in Germany nowadays. I believe it was kinda irony that even before OLt Kusch got executed, his promoted 1WO died in combat probably still wearing his bl**dy medal.

bertgang
11-03-2004, 03:15 AM
Besides historical facts, I think that mutiny - or, at least, some kind of insubordination - could be an interesting thing for game's pourposes.

Mind to silly or cruel orders like manning deck gun or loading external torpedoes in rough seas, surface to fight aircrafts, shoot survivors, etc...

We haven't historical reports about that, but this isn't a definitive evidence; no reason to report the murder of the nasty captain (why to be executed?), it's easyer and safest to say that he was killed in action or lost at sea.

Shan_Hackett
11-04-2004, 09:09 AM
From any branch in the armed services, from the recruit to the junior officer. The presence of a senior commander is a frightning experience.
but unlike the Air Force, and the Army, in the Navy, the Captain is ever present, only ever feet away, and his voice only seconds from anywhere onboard.

From the earliest days of Naval power, the Captian was; all seeing, all knowing, and every man knew his life "Belonged" to the Captain.

Todays Navy is a different fish, u make a mistake, or disobey an order, the leased u could expect is a stint in the brig, without pay, the worsed is a court martial and jail-time, and/or dishonourable discharge.
Back in the Second World War, such actions would in the most serious cases, result in punishment by death, and at no time in history -except for some instances in the Nueramburg trials- has any man under orders from a senior offcer been summarily dissiplined for following said orders. Disobeying orders, no matter how insane they seemed, was far more terrifing.

HeibgesU999
11-04-2004, 02:56 PM
Maybe instead of a mutiny, you could have a mechanism like the letter of reprimand in SH1. If you do certain things a certain number of times, you are relieved of command for a more competent commander.

for example:

1. returning from too many patrols empty handed, especially in the first part of the war.
2. losing a certain number of torps trying to load them in heavy seas.
3. running out of fuel.
4. failure to send proper radio reports.

E.Thang
11-04-2004, 07:52 PM
I need to add my 2 cents.
LOTR...crappy movies? You can't be serious, I've read the series 3 times and I think they are a little long winded at times. The books are better than the movies, but the movies were awesome. Yeah they changed a few things around, but that's hollywood. Peter Jackson is a massive LOTR fan, It's not like hollywood handed him a script he had never seen before, so give him a little credit. Besides, The Hobbit is the best book Tolkien ever wrote.
As far as Hunt for Red October, it wasn't based on fact. It was a 'what if' senario. How ever the book is dead on as far as technical details of the ships, chains of command est. You may not like Clancy's writing style, but his facts on Navy protocol and technology are dead on. As a matter of fact, after the book was released, Navy brass wanted to know how he got so much information on the technical gear est.
Crimson Tide...take it for what it is, a hollywood movie.
U-571, and 'In Enemy Hands' are the two most innaccurate sub movies evermade. U-571, for it's battle scenes. And 'In Enemy Hands" for it's Sub Interiors, and battle scenes.

There are NO recorded mutinies on any American or German subs during WWII or WWI...or ever as far as I can find.

PS The only movie I have ever seen that follows the book exactly is "Dances With Wolves" - The Directors Cut.

That is all, end the exercise, prepare to surface! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

HeibgesU999
11-04-2004, 08:53 PM
Off Topic but...

"The Caine Mutiny" is exacltly like the book and both are brilliant.

"Rebecca" is also exacltly like the book and brilliant.

I always liked Team Yankee better than Red Octobber but I'm a D.A.T.