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RCAF_Mac_403rd
10-16-2005, 11:01 PM
Ok pilots I most certainly must be doing something wrong here.

Every other plane I can fly with ease but that P51 always stalls out. LEt me give you an example.

-- Flying 2,000, 5,000, or 10, 000 ft in the air --level--flaps up speed at 150, 200, 250, 300 mph--pull back on joystick slowly about 1/4 ---stalls out. That goes the same with turning right or left.---


Even using flaps and lowering speed does absolutely nothing to help it! Nothing but wide *** turns with that thing. Pervect opportunity for a 109 to safely turn behind the 51's tail. = not good

I smile when ppl say that they can fly it like a Zero without any explainations how they do it. I usually call bs.

Oleg, or to whomever this concerns, is this plane not modeled wrong or is the P51 historically modelled correctly?

If I am doing everything wrong please post some "4.01" help guides on dog fighting with the P51.

Maybe I should be flying upside down and backwards...not too sure. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Thanks.

Mac

gx-warspite
10-16-2005, 11:12 PM
Seems to me your answered your own question: it's not a turn-fighter.

FritzGryphon
10-16-2005, 11:15 PM
Fly it like a FW, but easier on the elevator at speed.

You'll find the modeling of the P-51 quite consistant and accurate throughout many sims. Though the exact numbers may vary, the sustained turning ability is markedly less than all models of 109, and about equal to the FW-190.

As of yet, I've been unable to find any online data concerning sustained turn rate for the P-51. It's easy to find this data for Russian, Germans and British planes, and some US planes but not for the P-51 and P-47 specifically.

RCAF_Mac_403rd
10-16-2005, 11:25 PM
Rgr that. The phrase "Not a turn-fighter" looks pretty funny as I'm looking at it. I'm going to be a little sarcastic here, sorry, so in order to fight another plane and win you need not to turn to try to get behind him but just fly straight and hopefully he flys in front of you. lol

Need some more info....don't really understand how a P51 is classified as a "Not a turn-fighter". Thought this bad boy was the king of the skies.

RCAF_Mac_403rd
10-16-2005, 11:26 PM
Rgr that Fritz

FritzGryphon
10-16-2005, 11:36 PM
Oh, another thing, be sure to take a minimum of fuel. A full fuel tank reduces sustained turn by almost 10% compared to 25% fuel.

25% fuel is more than you will need for a dogfight mission or short co-op. If the P-51 'won the war' it was because of it's range, not turning ability. Range you don't exactly need in this game.

pourshot
10-16-2005, 11:56 PM
Rgr that. The phrase "Not a turn-fighter" looks pretty funny as I'm looking at it. I'm going to be a little sarcastic here, sorry, so in order to fight another plane and win you need not to turn to try to get behind him but just fly straight and hopefully he flys in front of you. lol

I think what he means is dont make flat turns instead use some vertical to hold onto your energy.

WOLFMondo
10-17-2005, 12:47 AM
Originally posted by FritzGryphon:
Fly it like a FW, but easier on the elevator at speed.


Thats how I fly it, with a constant eye on the artificial horizon to make sure im always getting the best speed out of it. I like to fly it high and fly it fast and run away when ever I'm at a disadvantage.

Monson74
10-17-2005, 02:06 AM
Just keep it fast & you'll do fine - speed will also prevent it from overheating because of the increased airflow. I heard the .50s are being fixed (de-synced) so you might even get some kills with it soon. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Sharpe26
10-17-2005, 02:54 AM
and make sure you have a wingman to coordinate with.

On warclouds I managed to get a FW190 after coming out of a dive and staying with him. He went down smoking. I got jumped by two 109s however so the outcome wasn't really in doubt anyway.

F19_Ob
10-17-2005, 03:24 AM
I second what others said.

25% fuel load will keep u flying a long time( like 75 or 100% in the 109).
I have never run out of fuel in it on 25%.

Mark Hanna described the p51d vs bf109 (he had flown both) like this; The p51d would lose a turnfight at slow speed on the deck, but could be relatively safe if it don't give up its speed and stay high, and avoid dogfights.

The p51 ofcourse is not totally handicapped in turn, and smart use of combat and takeoff flap can get it on the tail of a 109 for enough time to shoot.
At high speed a p51D is a hard opponent for any plane since it has effective elevator regardless of speed.

Some m8's above said; fly it as a BnZ'er, and that is good advise. Just note it's a BnZ'er that turns better than most, and this is what makes it deadly.= it has the advantage of speed but also can turn better than most at that speed, and almost comparable to the 109, it can idle the engine and pull hard for a sharp turn or two, wich most pure BnZ'ers cant replicate as well.
So, Use turn but use it visely with your opponents specs in the back of your head, and U will find it a potent player on any theatre.
Experienced 109 pilots will try to fool u into giving up your speed and come down to the deck for a slow speed scissor, wich it will win.
One of the reasons why 109's will win at slow speed is because it accellerates much better than p51 from slow speed, and the poor accelleration in the p51 is another reason besides slowspeed handling to keep energy up at all times.

Well what I think I know. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

jds1978
10-17-2005, 03:27 AM
always keep your energy up...

once the P51 goes below, say, 170mph you are in deep trouble b/c the AC doesn't regain airspeed well in level flight.

try using the K14 gunsight in the "D" models (user defined). at first i hated it...but it gets results...my accuracy has increased.

as stated above, 25-50% fuel is plenty

when in danger pull a shallow dive. the AC can go near the speed of sound w/o falling apart.

a regular recently posted a comment to be "methodical" w/ US planes. analyze the situation and prioritize who has to die first. gain altitude, B'n'Z the bandit, get out and repeat. if you have to make more than 1 or 2 turns abandon the attack and try again http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

WOLFMondo
10-17-2005, 04:28 AM
50% fuel here. 25% is too little for a long patrol.

Maple_Tiger
10-17-2005, 04:49 AM
Originally posted by RCAF_Mac_403rd:
Rgr that. The phrase "Not a turn-fighter" looks pretty funny as I'm looking at it. I'm going to be a little sarcastic here, sorry, so in order to fight another plane and win you need not to turn to try to get behind him but just fly straight and hopefully he flys in front of you. lol

Need some more info....don't really understand how a P51 is classified as a "Not a turn-fighter". Thought this bad boy was the king of the skies.


Nomraly, I'll only engage an enemy with alititude advantage. I'm talking about 3km advantage lol. Best altitude for her is between 6200m-8000m. Although, she isn't to bad at 3000m. Remember, she starts to lose power at about 4000m untill you reach 6200m, then the second stage supercharger kickes in.

Your not flying fast enough if you are stalling out. Adding negative helps to prevent stall outs and wing loss.

Me sick setting is:

35 37 40 45 52 60 70 80 90 100

carguy_
10-17-2005, 04:57 AM
Originally posted by RCAF_Mac_403rd:
Rgr that. The phrase "Not a turn-fighter" looks pretty funny as I'm looking at it. I'm going to be a little sarcastic here, sorry, so in order to fight another plane and win you need not to turn to try to get behind him but just fly straight and hopefully he flys in front of you. lol


There are more than one ways to skin a cat.For an ignorant person like you this game is not really a good one.You will be owned by those who actually can do a bit more than turning.I recommend taking it back before you burst your bubble.



Need some more info....don't really understand how a P51 is classified as a "Not a turn-fighter". Thought this bad boy was the king of the skies.

Turnfighter has a turn radius of below 20sec in a 360deg turn.P51 exceeds this time by far below 450km/h.It is not a pure fighter but an escort-fighter.It wasn`t supposed to get in DF but protect bomber formations.You don`t need good turn performance to produce a great escort fighter.It was never a king of the skies,the Spifire was.

I`m sorry that you are unable to pull high G turns due to stall.Learn some basics of fighter tactics or just dump the game.

SpartanHoplite
10-17-2005, 06:02 AM
Originally posted by carguy_:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by RCAF_Mac_403rd:
Rgr that. The phrase "Not a turn-fighter" looks pretty funny as I'm looking at it. I'm going to be a little sarcastic here, sorry, so in order to fight another plane and win you need not to turn to try to get behind him but just fly straight and hopefully he flys in front of you. lol

There are more than one ways to skin a cat.For an ignorant person like you this game is not really a good one.You will be owned by those who actually can do a bit more than turning.I recommend taking it back before you burst your bubble. [...] I`m sorry that you are unable to pull high G turns due to stall.Learn some basics of fighter tactics or just dump the game. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thats nice.

SH

ImpStarDuece
10-17-2005, 06:25 AM
Originally posted by RCAF_Mac_403rd:
Rgr that. The phrase "Not a turn-fighter" looks pretty funny as I'm looking at it. I'm going to be a little sarcastic here, sorry, so in order to fight another plane and win you need not to turn to try to get behind him but just fly straight and hopefully he flys in front of you. lol

Need some more info....don't really understand how a P51 is classified as a "Not a turn-fighter". Thought this bad boy was the king of the skies.


Look at the design and specifications of a P-51 and it will clue you in on a couple of aspects about it.

1.Laminar flow wing.

(Ok, I know that it wasn't a TRUE laminar flow wing but it was close.)

A laminar flow wing is a low drag high speed wing. This allowed a high critical mach number (good dive), high speed in cruise and high maximum speed. The downside is a relatively low level of lift, a correspondingly high stall speed and a more violent departure in stall regiemes.

This means that the P-51 is a high speed fighter, not a stall fighter. Its clean overall shape and low drag air aerofoil mean that is fast, retains speed well and accelerates well. At slow speeds however, the laminar flow wing becomes a liability. It doesn't lift the P-51 as well as thicker profile wings, meaning that it is more likely to stall and won't climb as well at low speeds than comparable fighters.


2. Weight

While it's no P-47 the P-51 is a large and heavy airplane for a fighter with a liquid cooled engine. It was an escort fighter, built to go 500 miles to a target, fight there and then go 500 miles back. So the airframe needs lots of room for fuel. Empty, a P-51D weighs 400kg more than a 109A8, 1000 kg more than a Spitfire IX or a La-7, 1200 kg more than a 109K and 1350 kg more than a Yak-3. This makes it quite heavy and more affected by forces like inertia than similar fighters. Its simply isn't as "chuckable" as other, lighter fighters. It has more weight to deal with, hence more drag and more inertia. It won't change direction at low speeds as well as lighter fighters. It will retain energy better though, due to its low drag/high weight combination.

USAAF pilots had a saying "The P-51 won't do what a Spitfire will, but it will do it over Berlin". As an escort fighter, some saacrafices in performance had to be made.


3. Engine Power.

The P-51D was equipped with a Packard Merlin V-1650-7 with a two stage, two speed supercharger. Best power for the first stage is 1,720hp at about 9500 feet. Best power for the second stage is 1,505 hp at 20,000 feet. The Merlin engine holds its power exceptionally well at high altitudes, better than most other engines of the war. So, while most of its opponents perform well below around 25,000 feet, above this altitude the P-51 begins to shine. The thin air works well with the low drag aerofoil and airframe combination, resulting in a superb high altitude dogfighter.

When you combine the weight of the basic airframe, with a relatively average engine output at low level, the P-51 suddenly doen't seem so special at low altitude. Going of an empty airframe as a basic guide, powerloading at low level is about .49 hp/kg. Fighters like the 109K, 190D, Spitfire IX and FW190A all have power to weight ratios of over .65 hp/kg at low levels.

So that lack of engine power means that the P-51, while fast at almost all altitudes because of its shape and clean design, will be hampered in acceleration and climb at low altitude compared to contemporary fighters. If you go slow it is difficult to regain energy at low levels because of poor acceleration. Other fighters will be able to run away (initally) or outclimb the P-51 because of their higher power to weight ratios at low altitude.

The reverse is true at high altitudes though. The Merlin gives the P-51 a better power to weight ratio up high. With the low overall drag of the airframe it is at home at high alt. All of a suddne the power equation is equalled or bettered against most opposition. So the P-51 can pull move against opponents at 25,000 feet that it simply doesn't have the performance advantage to do at 5,000 feet.


Things the P-51 does well;

Go fast at all altitudes
Zoom climb
Dive
Roll at high speed
Turn at high speed


Things the P-51 doesn't do well;

Accelerate quickly at low altitude
Turn at low speed
Stall fight
Change direction quickly
Slow speed sustained climb

So you have to play to your strengths;

Stay above 10,000 feet at a minimum (set yourself a hard deck if you have to).
Enter a fight a high speeds (350 mph or above is ideal.
Don't engage in slow speed turning contests (use high or low yo-yos or combat turns)
Keep your speed high (its better to 'loose' a fight and maintain high speed than to burn off all your energy, you can always come back later)
Use vertical manouvers like yo-yos, hammerheads, Immelmans ect and keep the fight either fast or vertical.

RCAF_Mac_403rd
10-17-2005, 06:27 AM
lol. Yeah I am sorry boys for being a bit sarcastic at time. Just got a little frustrated there. Hope I didn't upset anyone.

For this being the only plane that I am having this trouble I believe dumping the game would be a harsh move. We are hear to learn right? Not give up like some might. Thanks for the insight though. Appreciated.

Didn't realize that this plane was that was.. I'll just have to practice more and love a little more! lol

For the rest of you guys that recognised the frustration, because you been there yourself, I thank you for putting up with me and helping me out.

Sorry Oleg.

Mac

Deadmeat313
10-17-2005, 06:28 AM
The P-51 is VERY sensitive to control input, so you need to tone down your input settings. I find I can stall it very easily if I'm not careful. An oversensitive control column can cause to to overturn even with a gentle pull, and you will find yourself bleeding speed profusely.

I agree 100% with the earlier posts about reducing onboard fuel. Someone posted once on a much earlier thread that 100% fuel is enough to get the plane to Berlin and back. You will certainly not need this much, be sure. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Try to keep your speed up and keep your distance from opponents. If you need to fight someone, use your energy to climb above them, then swoop down on them and rake them with fire. The dive should give you enough energy back to extend the range again from your enemy in a shallow climb. The key is to treat the bird with a very gentle hand, and not to be drawn into turnfights.

Hope this is useful. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

T.

Kuna15
10-17-2005, 06:37 AM
I would say that P-51 is at bottom of my late war reccomendations for a newcomer to game.
It is very tough plane to fly in 4.01.

It is basically a fighter that should be flown like FW-190, just few thousand metars higher. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
Also from my experiences, FW-190A/D is easier plane to fly because of easier gunnery (this depends on experience with specific guns but in general), powerful armament (A model), plane stability at lower speeds. And FW-190 is tougher bird, engine wont stop from few bullets in engine like P-51.

Anyhow I like P-51. It is excellent in PTO. Easier to fly if compared to ETO, because of P-51 speed it really shines in PTO. Japanese Zero types, Tonys with exception of Frank are inferior in that area to P-51.
And player must be careful about Mustang climbing abilities. That is bad characteristic on this otherwise good all around fighter.

Also I must mention IceFire's reccomendations, he really helped me out with Joystick settings. In Input section I changed Yaw values (they were all on 100) to gradual values 10, 20, 30, 40... like in Roll and Pitch. It really helps to solve good part of the instability when using rudder.

Xiolablu3
10-17-2005, 07:08 AM
I think most of its Historical 'greatness' comes from being great as an escort fighter, doing something that no other fighter could have done before, escorting bombers from England to anywhere in Germany and back again....

Its an 'average' dogfighter at best but remember the german fighters were going after the bombers, not the fighters and so it didnt have to be, it just had to scare the german fighters off, something it was more than capable of.

Also its apparantly very good at hi-alt (Not sure about this cos I rarely fly above 5000m)

I have barely flown it more than half a dozen times (all versions) and like you have found it to spin in a sustained turn. I guess practise is the answer.

I'm sure the USAAF was pleased to get it as it could dogfight better than the P47 in the hands of an average pilot in any case. (I'm sure some P47 experts could do great things with that plane)

TooCooL34
10-17-2005, 07:20 AM
Fly it like FW, weak gun version FW. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
It's really good at scratching and forget scores during flight. Eventually you get rewarded with good result.

Vipez-
10-17-2005, 08:56 AM
P51 is a great plane, and Imho the best modelling in P51s in any history so far in computer gaming. Yesterday I had great success with P51B in Warclouds..Some may feel thrustrated with P51B/MustangMKIII/P51C, due to feeling not beeing able to down planes like fw190s in one pass.. it is proven as faulty DM, and I think Mustang-pilots will get much happier in 4.02, when FW190s burn really nicely.. But you get better results by shooting controlled burts, and only at the convergence.. I use corvengece of of 180 meters in the Stang..Some claim it can't outdive BF109 - wrong.. i never had problems outdiving 109s.. as long as you remember to fly straight, instead of zigzagging or the 109 may catch you. And also watch for the extremely effective elevators, or you cut your wings really fast ..

Owlsphone
10-17-2005, 09:47 AM
Just try and think of the boom and zoomers (aka "non turning planes") as ones that keep their safe distance (usually meaning altitude) and diving onto enemy planes, taking their shot, and getting back to a safe distance. Rinse repeat. Those planes try NOT to turn because it burns up the energy that could have been used to extend away from the enemy.

When I fly the 51 most of my kills are surprises. I am higher than the enemy, spot them and stalk them, and dive down when I feel I can get a good shot. Usually this involves diving down from their high six o clocks. By the time I'm shooting I'm usually above 650 km/h and then I go back up keeping track of where the enemy is below me. At that point he is usually trying to figure out where I am laterally when I am in fact, above him.

The turn and burn planes are the ones who have the ability to just keep turning in circles in what you imagine as the classic dogfight. The Mustang is not one of them, but if need be, it can turn against a few types of planes if necessary.

danjama
10-17-2005, 02:35 PM
Mac, you should of just asked me or maple on Hyperlobby one night you almost got eaten alive here http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif , were both pretty good in that lump of flying metal. Mapes is a bit better though http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

RCAF_Mac_403rd
10-17-2005, 04:30 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif That's fine Danjama. There was only one flamer in here. Everybody else was really helpful. No worries, I can handle myself. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

HayateAce
10-17-2005, 04:53 PM
Here is the best way to fly the Pos51:

http://ftp.games.skynet.be/pub/ftp.bluebyte.com/il2/LaGG-3-IT.jpg

StellarRat
10-17-2005, 04:56 PM
Fly above 4K meters and you won't have any problems.

Maple_Tiger
10-17-2005, 06:00 PM
For stick settings in the P-51, you want to keep it as smooth as possible.

The deffault setting is,

10 20 30 40 50 60 70 80 90 100.

However, it's not smooth.
For example, going from 10 to 20 is 100% jump in control authority. Gun site will jump up on you a little. Sure, it's not too bad from 40 to 50, but it can be smoother.

35 37 40 45 52 60 70 80 90 100.

35 to 37 is not much of a difference;in fact, I don't even notice it lol.

Also, you could try something like.

25 27 30 35 42 50 60 72 85 100.

mmmmm, mayby I'll try this instead lol.
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

airdale1960
10-17-2005, 06:28 PM
High, Fast, fire only when you see their blue eyes, 200-250 Meters (convergence),follow through with diving attacks, gain speed, sacrifice altitude for speed only if you have the advantage. If Messy is on your 6, dive, run like hell, call for your wingman, dogfight in pairs. That is how the USAAC swept the LW from the skies.
Doesn't always work in PF, the LW are more numerous.

Bearcat99
10-18-2005, 04:55 AM
Originally posted by Vipez-:
P51 is a great plane, and Imho the best modelling in P51s in any history so far in computer gaming.

I agree.... I may have a few issues with some aspects of the FM but overall it is the best modelled P-51 in any combat sim to date.