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obliviondoll
11-28-2010, 04:46 PM
How's this story sound...

I have my lovely, wonderful "poison" ability.

I get close, and managed to stack incognito, hidden, and focus bonuses on top of my poison kill because the target was distracted looking at another of my teammates... Cool, I've set up a 950 point kill!

BUt, during the 5 seconds i have to wait, a teammate kills my target - lets assume this is a semi-intelligent teammate, and he gets a 300 point kill. I get 50 points for "intercepted"

Congrats, my teammate's screwed us out of points, and doesn't get any message to advise WHY that action was a bad idea.

They get a higher score than me at the end of the match by doing this every time I poison a target, then say it was MY fault we lost the match because I didn't get many points.


So, how do we fix this?

Swap the "intercepted" bonus when you're playing team games, of course.

Bob: Hi! *poisons target*
Jim: Bye bye! *silent/acrobatic kills poisoned target*

Currently, Bob gets 50 points for his perfectly set-up kill, and Jim gets whatever the kill he made was worth, in this case, 400 points.

I suggest they swap this - BUT ONLY IN TEAM GAMES.

Jim kills that poisoned target next time, HE gets the +50 intercepted bonus, and BOB gets the 400 point kill.

That way, he won't turn around after screwing the team and be able to say "I got more points, you lost the match for us"

Or, alternatively, they could FINISH WRITING THE MANUAL!

Or, alternatively, they could give us a proper multiplayer tutorial (example: "this icon above a target's head means your teammate has poisoned the target. Killing said target is a complete ****** move and will likely get you hated for life by the rest of your team. They may even hack the game so they can kill you for it")

E-Zekiel
11-28-2010, 06:35 PM
Do people see poison icons if they're on your team? I have never seen any but my own, but I've begun to use poison + gun for my offensive set for Manhunt. Most of the time I just pick an out of the way target no one is going for, but I was just wondering.

Raisendori
11-28-2010, 06:42 PM
i like the current system
just change targets and try again

E-Zekiel
11-28-2010, 06:51 PM
Meh, I think that teammates should get a poison icon just like the user.

obliviondoll
11-28-2010, 07:04 PM
Your teammates DO get a poison icon.

And they STILL kill your target.

If you couldn't tell your teammate was using poison, I'd be asking for that.

And I know because I've seen teammates use poison and the icon shows up.

EDIT:

Originally posted by Raisendori:
i like the current system
just change targets and try again
Except when you set up a 950 point kill and someone wastes in on 100 point run-around-mindlessly, and "pick another target and try again" won't work until the 90 second cooldown finishes.

But good idea other than that.

ProgrammerDeus
11-28-2010, 07:31 PM
I completely agree with teammates being the worst thing in the world in this game. I hate struggling with the lock-on in this game, but i do it anyways because I like to secure points for our team and win. But 9 times out of 10, after all my preparation, making sure I'm out of sight when i put on my disguise, walking up to the group the enemy is in, and then finally poking them with poison, someone runs up behind me and kills the target for 100 points and another enemy in the group drops smoke and stuns me.

What I don't agree with is the point swap. I think it would be good enough to give the player who poisoned the target the 200 points they're promised to get if they poison a target, and if some ******* teammate takes the kill for less than your 1k points, then oh well, at least you got the 200 and not a measly 50.

Or make the target unkillable while poisoned so they can just die.

postwick
11-28-2010, 07:35 PM
there's a simple solution.

play with better teammates.

obliviondoll
11-28-2010, 07:39 PM
Originally posted by postwick:
there's a simple solution.

play with better teammates.
You fix the matchmaking and I'll get right on that.

While you're at it, boost my friend list.

Thanks. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

EDIT: and make the game so players who form a party get to place themselves on the same team consistently - that's a rather annoying problem to have too.

ProgrammerDeus
11-28-2010, 07:42 PM
that's not simple at all. There is no way to preference who you play with. I can't click a box that says "find players who respect people attempting to use poison".

I have friends who bought the game as well, but often there's only 3 of us playing at a time and that leaves room for 1 more to screw us all over.

QuickBrittle
11-28-2010, 08:08 PM
Sadly, this is why I play Wanted only. I can't in good faith trust complete strangers to be good teammates.

Sorry it's a pita though.

Coolgerb
11-28-2010, 09:06 PM
Originally posted by QuickBrittle:
Sadly, this is why I play Wanted only. I can't in good faith trust complete strangers to be good teammates.

Sorry it's a pita though.

This. I have lost faith in people playing online a long time ago, 95% seem to have an IQ below 80. Why am I often the only one who actually understands a game?

obliviondoll
11-28-2010, 09:07 PM
Originally posted by Coolgerb:
I have lost faith in people playing online a long time ago, 95% seem to have an IQ below 8.
Fixed that for you.

Evan52395
11-28-2010, 09:45 PM
Originally posted by Kataklizmika:

Or make the target unkillable while poisoned so they can just die.
This.

obliviondoll
11-28-2010, 09:53 PM
Originally posted by Evan52395:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kataklizmika:

Or make the target unkillable while poisoned so they can just die.
This. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I prefer my idea, personally, but as long as that was only applied to team modes, I wouldn't mind it either.

nopezero07
11-28-2010, 10:52 PM
Originally posted by E-Zekiel:
Do people see poison icons if they're on your team? I have never seen any but my own, but I've begun to use poison + gun for my offensive set for Manhunt. Most of the time I just pick an out of the way target no one is going for, but I was just wondering. they can see the poison icon just like you can but alot of teammates just dont care and see it as points for themselves and not team points. what if they make it so that if u poison a target ur teammate cant kill them. no matter what

yuanxd
11-29-2010, 01:03 PM
Is really a pain team mode with unknown people. Team trophy is almost impossible.

And they lock on on civilians too, making you lost contracts -_-

Anyway, besides the icon, animation for poisoned templars is slight different, is easy to notice a already poisoned target.

RunnerGroucho
11-29-2010, 01:37 PM
The root of problem here is that XP is earned individually which gives players the incentive to steal kills from their teammates.

obliviondoll
11-29-2010, 06:22 PM
Originally posted by GrouchoUnleashe:
The root of problem here is that XP is earned individually which gives players the incentive to steal kills from their teammates.
Which is EXACTLY where my suggestion comes in.

If a player knows they're going to get 50 points for the kill, and give their teammate however much their kill was worth, they're more likely to hit a different target.

EDIT: Had a teammate doing this in a Manhunt match today. But he epic failed twice.

I spotted a target on a bench, I had worked out which one it was, and I went in and poisoned them.

Without me going in first, the guy would never have known which one was the target. Because there was a poison icon he thought "oh good, now I know who to kill."

Walked over and got smoked, and the target was trying to stun him when the poison kicked in.

And another one where the same guy, in the same match, tried to get a kill on a poisoned target, and there were 2 enemies in the crowd. The one I poisoned was already screwed, obviously, but he went for them, and got stunned by the other.

Which meant I got the 600 point incognito + hidden kill on that one too.

I felt awesome.

Shame that kind of thing doesn't happen to these idiots more often.

Vikingstad
11-30-2010, 06:51 AM
know what yore going through. ive stopped playing team modes unless i have a full team from the Forsaken, with slow poison they get more time to kill my targets, so instead of me getting 900, they get 100. As if they automatically run all they can to kill the 1 I target. (Thats why i play with my Forsaken brothers, they listen and observe)

Collinwood01
07-07-2011, 03:09 AM
I couldnt have said it better!

Originally posted by obliviondoll:
How's this story sound...

I have my lovely, wonderful "poison" ability.

I get close, and managed to stack incognito, hidden, and focus bonuses on top of my poison kill because the target was distracted looking at another of my teammates... Cool, I've set up a 950 point kill!

BUt, during the 5 seconds i have to wait, a teammate kills my target - lets assume this is a semi-intelligent teammate, and he gets a 300 point kill. I get 50 points for "intercepted"

Congrats, my teammate's screwed us out of points, and doesn't get any message to advise WHY that action was a bad idea.

They get a higher score than me at the end of the match by doing this every time I poison a target, then say it was MY fault we lost the match because I didn't get many points.


So, how do we fix this?

Swap the "intercepted" bonus when you're playing team games, of course.

Bob: Hi! *poisons target*
Jim: Bye bye! *silent/acrobatic kills poisoned target*

Currently, Bob gets 50 points for his perfectly set-up kill, and Jim gets whatever the kill he made was worth, in this case, 400 points.

I suggest they swap this - BUT ONLY IN TEAM GAMES.

Jim kills that poisoned target next time, HE gets the +50 intercepted bonus, and BOB gets the 400 point kill.

That way, he won't turn around after screwing the team and be able to say "I got more points, you lost the match for us"

Or, alternatively, they could FINISH WRITING THE MANUAL!

Or, alternatively, they could give us a proper multiplayer tutorial (example: "this icon above a target's head means your teammate has poisoned the target. Killing said target is a complete ****** move and will likely get you hated for life by the rest of your team. They may even hack the game so they can kill you for it")

Chernzobog
07-07-2011, 03:54 AM
Not a bad idea solution to the poison + random team mate issue, IMO. I've raged about this before to fellow clan mates, but I believe that the way the intercepted bonus is set up (in MANHUNT AND TEAM MODES ONLY) places the penalty unfairly on the poisoner. I mean, let's face it, half the people know what poison is and they take poison kills like crazy because they're selfish and they want the points. One bloke had the nerve to rip my poison right as it was about to die- the symbol had been up over his head for a good two seconds- and then use his own poison on the next lock (which wasn't his lock in the first place, it was mine, and I intercepted it for the sake of just revenge.)

What irks the hell out of me is that there really are no tangible penalties for acting in such a selfish and team-inhibiting way in TEAM modes. I think the only way to stop people from killing poisoned locks is to have said poison stealer LOSE whatever points the kill was worth (with the poisoner still settling for a 50 pt. intercepted.) Having your own score negatively affected is the only concrete way people will learn to leave the poison icon alone.

Tangentially, here's some advice on poisoning with a room full of people you don't know and don't trust: if you get your poison out but see your teammate rushing in like a madman for a kill, switch locks to an NPC. If your teammate doesn't have a lock on your poison (and randoms normally don't), they'd have to manually re-lock to kill the right one. If they run in there mashing X on the first lock they see, they'll kill the NPC, lose their contract, and your poison will be safe.

Also, tangentially, can I just say that I really wish there was an option to make your locks 'private' in team modes- i.e.: only YOU can see them? This would be a nifty feature to have if you're playing with a lobby full of people who will run at every one of your locks for 100 points.

weeklydose
07-07-2011, 04:02 AM
I would have a problem with the basic idea behind swapping points when a teammate intercepts. After all, if somebody else kills your poisoned target... you did not kill the target.

Poison has that annoying risk of the kill getting stolen by teammates who either don't understand the concept or only care about their own points. It's a high risk / high reward ability, so I understand and appreciate the current system.

I usually don't use Poison in Manhunt unless I see my teammates respecting someone else's Poison.

obliviondoll
07-07-2011, 04:14 AM
Man... not sure who resurrected this thread.

But anyway, my stance has changed (and been posted elsewhere many, many, MANY times since...)

Now, I think the Poisoner should get the +50 bonus for Poison, and the +100 bonus for kill. The person stealing the Poison should get the rest of the points they earn for their kill.

This is because in another thread about this topic, someone mentioned something I'd never thought of...

Griefing by abusing Poison if this rule was implemented.

Here's the setting:

Player 1 has camped a blend group that's leading him to a target stealthily, and has a Smoke Bomb ready. He drops Smoke as the target is running past, catching them so he can get a Hidden/Focus kill. Then a teammate runs in and Discreet Poisons the guy, knowing if his teammate goes for the kill anyway, HE gets all the points.

Sounds just as unfair as my first example, doesn't it?

So new solution: Poisoner gets the +50 Intercepted. Poisoner gets +100 Kill bonus. Killer gets the rest of the bonuses applicable to his kill.

This way, if you get a quick Poison and your teammate accidentally steals it in the middle of a stunlock panic, they still get 300 points for the Incognito. If you set up a perfect 1000+ kill and a teammate tries to steal it on a Discreet Poison and thinks that because it's Poison it's better, you don't have to feel so bad about wasting their ability, because they're still getting 150 points, and you're giving yourself and the team a good amount of points for your (higher-scoring) kill.

Chernzobog
07-07-2011, 04:18 AM
I usually don't use Poison in Manhunt

But you should be able to if you want to. That's the point. Team modes are about working together to score the most points. If my randomly assigned teammate decides he wants to be a selfish jerkwad and play against the style/intention of the mode, why should HE be able to screw ME out of a score without a penalty? What's the repercussion of playing 'Ihunt' in team modes? There is none.

BigBalledEagle
07-07-2011, 07:35 AM
Originally posted by Chernzobog:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I usually don't use Poison in Manhunt

But you should be able to if you want to. That's the point. Team modes are about working together to score the most points. If my randomly assigned teammate decides he wants to be a selfish jerkwad and play against the style/intention of the mode, why should HE be able to screw ME out of a score without a penalty? What's the repercussion of playing 'Ihunt' in team modes? There is none. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Chernz, it seems like you are just a magnet that attracts really, really bad randoms. The randoms I get are usually totally clueless, so I usually still use Disguise/Poison and manage to get 2 or 3 poisons off.

I think the main key is to poison a target that your teammates have not yet identified (namely through a stun). If they see that LT prompt, they always go on a full sprint for it. So I just save my poisons for standing morphed groups.

I think we should also realize that many of the noobs that we play against all the time are likely to be low levels (below 29) and therefore are completely unaware of what poison means. I think a lot of these noobs have never seen a green screen death before, and when they do get poisoned for 1750, I think some of them will never play the game again.

I'm sure you are fully aware of everything I have said since you are the #1 player, but I just felt like making a post regardless. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

PlasticAssasin8
07-07-2011, 08:42 AM
Early on i had no idea what the "lock on " meant and the "poison icon" over someones head meant.

I dont think people are "stupid" maybe just uninformed. They probably play just to get their own points and have fun killing.

I dont think everyone out there that plays does it to help anyone at all, they just play as singular players.

Yeah some people are idiots but i think most just denot realise what it is they are doing.

But if a team mate had accused me of losing the game because my points were low due to the fact they stole my hi point poison kills id want to slap em silly.

LadyGahan2010
07-07-2011, 09:20 AM
Oblivion, I LOVE your idea... I hate team modes from the bottom of my heart mostly because of those who steal your kills right from under your nose for 100 points (when I have silent at least) and the poison stealers... And I do have reasons to believe it is not their lack of observation or lack of knowledge. They do it on purpose (a grand master of lvl 50 doesn't know poison?). The whole concept of TEAM work falls right there.

gothpunkboy89
07-07-2011, 12:08 PM
i hate poison stealers with a passion. like remove their ablities for rest of the game and force them to be just another NCP for the rest of the match hate.


I do think that the poison stealers though should only get 50 points. and only 50 points. not kill streak, no savor, revenge or anything.

and the poisoner has is poison timer set to half speed.

so the guy that stole the poison got a poor 50 points and the poison timer goes from what 90 seconds to 40 seconds cool down.

weeklydose
07-07-2011, 12:38 PM
Originally posted by PlasticAsasin8:
Early on i had no idea what the "lock on " meant and the "poison icon" over someones head meant.
True. The first time I ever saw a Poison icon in a game of Manhunt, I mistakenly took it for a lock icon. It wasn't until later that I realized it was a Poison icon.

I probably stole a bunch of Poison kills back in the early days when I didn't even know there was a Poison ability.

These days, the only time I still steal a Poison is by accident and always in a chaotic situation where my team is breaking out of an attempted stun lock and I was downed, mashing the kill button. I guess it happens to me once every four weeks... and I always send an apology message to the player whose Poison I took.

thergbcolor
07-07-2011, 12:51 PM
Reading threads like this I remember why I stopped using poison. Poison in any mode, whether FFA or Team, means taking a risk. Most of the time, that risk pays off in the form of points. Sometimes it doesn't. This is why, to my way of thinking, Disguise + (whatever) is a safer ability set than Disguise + Poison, but also fewer points. My advice to people who don't like it when their risk doesn't pay off - either stop taking the risk or remember that nobody forced you to do it.

ZorboidOrbb
07-07-2011, 01:13 PM
I use poison ONLY when I play with friends or randoms who I know are good and sensible enough to not take my poison kill. I recently had a random teammate in Alliance and he was super cool. We weren't even chatting over a lobby and yet, we pulled off everything from poisons to stun locks to everything. If I play with such people, I use poison. But with complete boneheads, NO to poison.

Serrachio
07-07-2011, 01:52 PM
I remember suggesting this twice or more already, but my view on how to fix the 'Poison-stealing teammate" issue, is to reward the player who poisons their target with the situational bonuses for their kill, along with their Intercepted bonus.

That way, if you manage to pull off a Hidden and a Focus before your poisoned target is stolen from you, you would still recieve 400 points for your efforts (200 Hidden + 150 Focus + 50 Intercepted).

It would still give you some reward for setting up your kill, while not being all too spiteful to your teammate in the event of an honest mistake.

Better yet, I believe that there should be three different titles for Poison (currently there are two, Poison and Agony) and each would differ in the way that a Interception should reward you.

For Fast-Acting Poison, the title for it should be 'Toxic' and a 'Toxic Intercepted' would reward the player +75 points, half of the current score for a successful kill by using that type.

The pattern remains the same for the other poisons.

Regular and Rapid Reload Poison would be simply titled 'Poison' and have 'Poison Intercepted', rewarding +100 points to the player.

Slow Acting Poison would keep its title of 'Agony', and reward the player +150 points whenever their poison is taken with an 'Agony Intercepted'.

This way, it would reward players at least half of the points that the player would normally receive if their ability worked without interruption, making it a little more fair on the poison user in the case of an 'unlucky circumstance', along with any other situational bonuses that they accumulated along the way.

It wouldn't deny the other player of their kill and their kill bonus, but they will still know that they're disadvantaging their team by their actions.

As someone also suggested, informing players of the poison drop icon in the loading screens would give no person the excuse of being unaware, and if they still don't pay attention, you'll have something to catch their ignorance out with.

Dave0718
07-07-2011, 02:12 PM
play with friends

Serrachio
07-07-2011, 02:45 PM
Even friends can mess up sometimes, which is why my suggestion would make even a simple mistake excusable.

But at least you know that with friends playing with you, they're more likely to steal your poison with a Silent kill, as opposed to flat out chasing your victim down and frustrating everyone.

swiftavenger212
07-07-2011, 05:39 PM
Originally posted by obliviondoll:


Player 1 has camped a blend group that's leading him to a target stealthily, and has a Smoke Bomb ready. He drops Smoke as the target is running past, catching them so he can get a Hidden/Focus kill. Then a teammate runs in and Discreet Poisons the guy, knowing if his teammate goes for the kill anyway, HE gets all the points.

Sounds just as unfair as my first example, doesn't it?


Not really, its his fault for using an offensive smoke bomb.

Dave0718
07-07-2011, 05:57 PM
Originally posted by swiftavenger212:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by obliviondoll:


Player 1 has camped a blend group that's leading him to a target stealthily, and has a Smoke Bomb ready. He drops Smoke as the target is running past, catching them so he can get a Hidden/Focus kill. Then a teammate runs in and Discreet Poisons the guy, knowing if his teammate goes for the kill anyway, HE gets all the points.

Sounds just as unfair as my first example, doesn't it?


Not really, its his fault for using an offensive smoke bomb. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

true dat

JTS_812
07-07-2011, 06:14 PM
Originally posted by Evan52395:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kataklizmika:

Or make the target unkillable while poisoned so they can just die.
This. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I disagree, the idea of poison is your taking the risk of leaving your target alive to get higher points, the risk is your teammate can still kill them. (I usually don't have the same problems as you all do cause I try to play with randoms as little as possible) That said I've had poison's stolen plenty of times as well.

Edit: Also I just realized that, that post was pretty old.

Dave0718
07-07-2011, 06:35 PM
leave it the way it is,poison is a high risk high reward ability,there is a reason you get more points for slow acting poison then fast acting. The risk is much higher with slow acting it takes almost 7 seconds for the guy to die.

If you playing with randoms and still want to use poison but have less risk,use fast acting.

Mc Dudes
07-07-2011, 09:41 PM
I hate when you are poison somebuddy in aliance and then your teammate pic up the gun and shoot the one i have poisend for 1 sec before! This have happend to me a few times belive me and it is ******* anoying!!!

But my sugestion is that never play with randoms i if you dont want this to hgappend in alliance or in a team game like manhunt!

obliviondoll
07-08-2011, 02:02 AM
OK, for the derps who refuse to acknowledge Offensive Smoke as a legitimate tactic...

You're on a rooftop with a Knifed target going for Acrobatic Focus, and your teammate, KNOWING you're going for Focus, walks up and Poisons them to steal your kill?

Still sound fair to you guys?

Or how about when you haven't even bothered with Knives, and just got set up against someone who hasn't realised you're above them? (just in case you think using Knives for Focus is cheating now too)