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Athosd
07-23-2004, 10:58 PM
Since the US Navy used radio proximity fused munitions from the end of 1942 will their heavy AAA be more effective than other nations in PF?

Just curious.

Over the Hills and O'er the Main,
To Flanders, Portugal and Spain,
The Queen commands and we'll obey
Over the Hills and far away.

Athosd
07-23-2004, 10:58 PM
Since the US Navy used radio proximity fused munitions from the end of 1942 will their heavy AAA be more effective than other nations in PF?

Just curious.

Over the Hills and O'er the Main,
To Flanders, Portugal and Spain,
The Queen commands and we'll obey
Over the Hills and far away.

Destraex
07-23-2004, 11:47 PM
radio proximity, how does that work?

Radio range finder shipboard determines the fuse timer or altitude?

Athosd
07-24-2004, 12:27 AM
At the time it was called a VT (Variable Time) fuse, they didn't want to give the game away by calling it "proximity".
It was an ingenious bit of technology - the projectile sent out a radio pulse and exploded when the return signal, bounced off the target, was of sufficient intensity (this was configured based on the bursting effectiveness of the shell).
Until late 1944 it was only used in the Pacific theatre, where any unexploded rounds would fall into the ocean, thus preserving the secret.

Hitler's V1 campaign against London prompted the Americans to authorise its use in England's defense. These munitions so improved the defenses that the V1 campaign against London was aborted.

Over the Hills and O'er the Main,
To Flanders, Portugal and Spain,
The Queen commands and we'll obey
Over the Hills and far away.

Destraex
07-24-2004, 12:35 AM
excellent explanation Athosd

What an expensive shell it must have been when you are firing them at 20 rpm or something similar

Mitlov47
07-24-2004, 01:07 AM
I'm confused. WHY wasn't it used in defense of Britain before 1944? The Germans still wouldn't have captured it there. Were we afraid that the British would "capture" the technology? If so, that's a shame. We were on the same side.

http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/387_1090402912_sturmo1.jpg

Athosd
07-24-2004, 04:53 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mitlov47:
I'm confused. WHY wasn't it used in defense of Britain before 1944? The Germans still wouldn't have captured it there. Were we afraid that the British would "capture" the technology? If so, that's a shame. We were on the same side.

http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/387_1090402912_sturmo1.jpg <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Its not hidden information - just plug "radio proximity fuse" (or fuze) into google and you'll find a number of links.

This one is a good brief outline of the development and use of the fuses:

http://www.smecc.org/radio_proximity_fuzes.htm

Why did they keep it secret? My guess is they really, really, really didn't want the bad guys getting their hands on this one. Prior to the creation of an effective counter this beastie could have made the bombing campaign in Europe unfeasable.
US artillery was also made considerably more deadly vs ground targets (it was cleared for use in Europe in late 44 - in time for "the Bulge") as the rounds could explode at an optimal height above ground. Say good night if you aren't under solid stage 3 protection.

Athos

Ps - I was mistaken about it only being in the Pacific, apparently it was used extensively in the Atlantic and Med as well.

Over the Hills and O'er the Main,
To Flanders, Portugal and Spain,
The Queen commands and we'll obey
Over the Hills and far away.

[This message was edited by Athosd on Sat July 24 2004 at 04:01 AM.]

hop2002
07-24-2004, 08:20 AM
VT fuses weren't used in defence of Britain until the V-1 menace because by the time they became available the Lufwaffe rarely attacked Britain anymore.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Were we afraid that the British would "capture" the technology?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Most of the theoretical work on the fuses had already been comleted in Britain. The design was one of the things the Tizard mission took to the US in 1940. There was still a lot required to get it working, though.

SkyChimp
07-24-2004, 09:31 AM
AFAIK the US Navy had been working on a proximity fuse leading up to the time of Tizard's trip using the same technology Tizard brought with him.

Regards,
http://members.cox.net/us.fighters/signature.jpg

Tater-SW-
07-24-2004, 10:14 AM
Was it really an active fuse, or was it semi-active?

Active means the shell has to have power and broadcast pulses, then watch the returns. Semi-active means that the SHIP (the gun director in question) could broadcast the pulses, and the shell only requires a passive detector. The latter is far far far easier to do.

tater

Tater-SW-
07-24-2004, 10:24 AM
Actually, after reading that link, it looks like it is BOTH.

It uses the combined signal of the ground based painting radar, and its own transmitter.

tater

Latico
07-24-2004, 04:37 PM
I believe that I read that the Proximity fuse was not use, at first, over Brittian because the ordinance that did not detinate near a target would fall back to earth and detinate near the ground, causing damage and injury on the ground. A secondary timed fuse had to be use to detinate the ordinance in the event of misses.

Dammerung
07-24-2004, 05:41 PM
The US has a habit of not using it's best stuff for fear of Capture. Going against US Flak was suicide.... but in WWI, they had the Best Light Machine gun in the World- The BAR. But they used argueably the worst gun ever, the Chauchat because they didnt want the Germans to get any BARs.

Oh, there are no fighter pilots down in hell...
Oh, there are no fighter pilots down in hell...
The whole damn place is full of queers, navigators, and bombadiers...
Oh, there are no fighter pilots down in hell...

SkyChimp
07-24-2004, 06:40 PM
The Chauchat. Described as "The worst piece of military hardware ever inflicted on the American fighting man."

http://www.nationmaster.com/images/enc/C/Chauchat.jpg

Regards,
http://members.cox.net/us.fighters/signature.jpg

Athosd
07-24-2004, 08:21 PM
The Browning Automatic Rifle wasn't available at the time the USA entered WW1. The US army could however have equiped with the Lewis gun - as the Marines did - but for a personality clash between Lewis and the head of the ordnance board.
The Chauchat is also known as "undoubtedly the worst machinge gun ever issued to any army at any time in history." (from Ian V Hogg's Illustrated History of Firearms).
It wasn't just the US that were burdened with this PBI nightmare.

Cheers

Athos

Ps - I'm guessing that an answer to the subject of this thread will not be forthcoming (and if it were it would be "No")

Over the Hills and O'er the Main,
To Flanders, Portugal and Spain,
The Queen commands and we'll obey
Over the Hills and far away.

SkyChimp
07-24-2004, 08:34 PM
BTW, back to the original topic. Here is an excellent summary of the developement of the Proximity Fuse:
http://earlyradiohistory.us/1963hw41.htm

And while we are at it, Radar:
http://earlyradiohistory.us/1963hw38.htm

And sonar:
http://earlyradiohistory.us/1963hw39.htm

Regards,
http://members.cox.net/us.fighters/signature.jpg

Blutarski2004
07-27-2004, 09:59 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SkyChimp:
BTW, back to the original topic. Here is an excellent summary of the developement of the Proximity Fuse:
http://earlyradiohistory.us/1963hw41.htm
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


..... Excellent book on the VT fuze, its development, and employment -

THE DEADLY FUSE by Ralph Baldwin
http://www.jhu.edu/~gazette/julsep95/aug2195/21apl.html

IIRC, the VT fuze was not actually tested until Spring 1943 and not combat tested until November 1943 (USS HELENA IIRC). Thereafter, it was a question of ramping up production to meet insatiable demand in the Pacific theater of operations. Once production had caught up to demand, it was provided to the ETO where it was employed against the V1's and was ALSO employed by US field artillery, in which capacity it revolutionized the effectiveness of airburst fire. This greatly increased the overall lethality of US artillery.

BLUTARSKI

EmbarkChief
07-27-2004, 11:41 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Athosd:
The Browning Automatic Rifle wasn't available at the time the USA entered WW1. The US army could however have equiped with the Lewis gun - as the Marines did - but for a personality clash between Lewis and the head of the ordnance board.
The Chauchat is also known as "undoubtedly the worst machinge gun ever issued to any army at any time in history." (from Ian V Hogg's Illustrated History of Firearms).
It wasn't just the US that were burdened with this PBI nightmare.

Cheers

Athos

Ps - I'm guessing that an answer to the subject of this thread will not be forthcoming (and if it were it would be "No")
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

But I believe it was available before the war was over....

Athosd
07-27-2004, 06:08 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Blutarski2004:

..... Excellent book on the VT fuze, its development, and employment -

THE DEADLY FUSE by Ralph Baldwin
http://www.jhu.edu/~gazette/julsep95/aug2195/21apl.html

IIRC, the VT fuze was not actually tested until Spring 1943 and not combat tested until November 1943 (USS HELENA IIRC). Thereafter, it was a question of ramping up production to meet insatiable demand in the Pacific theater of operations. Once production had caught up to demand, it was provided to the ETO where it was employed against the V1's and was ALSO employed by US field artillery, in which capacity it revolutionized the effectiveness of airburst fire. This greatly increased the overall lethality of US artillery.

BLUTARSKI

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

My sources note the first test in January 1942 followed by pre-combat trial in August 1942. The first batch (5000 rounds) was delivered to a operational unit in November 1942. The first unit to use them in action was the U.S.S Helena on 5th of January 1943.

Cheers

Athos

Over the Hills and O'er the Main,
To Flanders, Portugal and Spain,
The Queen commands and we'll obey
Over the Hills and far away.

Athosd
07-27-2004, 06:27 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by EmbarkChief:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Athosd:
The Browning Automatic Rifle wasn't available at the time the USA entered WW1. The US army could however have equiped with the Lewis gun - as the Marines did - but for a personality clash between Lewis and the head of the ordnance board.
The Chauchat is also known as "undoubtedly the worst machinge gun ever issued to any army at any time in history." (from Ian V Hogg's Illustrated History of Firearms).
It wasn't just the US that were burdened with this PBI nightmare.

Cheers

Athos

Ps - I'm guessing that an answer to the subject of this thread will not be forthcoming (and if it were it would be "No")
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

But I believe it was available before the war was over....<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It certainly was. The M1918A1 saw service with the US forces in the last year of the war - and gained quite a reputation for reliability in adverse conditions.

Cheers

Athos

Over the Hills and O'er the Main,
To Flanders, Portugal and Spain,
The Queen commands and we'll obey
Over the Hills and far away.

BlackShrike
07-28-2004, 01:42 PM
excellent subject. showing once again this forums superiority over ubis il2 forums http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

Blutarski2004
07-28-2004, 03:25 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Athosd:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Blutarski2004:

..... Excellent book on the VT fuze, its development, and employment -

THE DEADLY FUSE by Ralph Baldwin
http://www.jhu.edu/~gazette/julsep95/aug2195/21apl.html

IIRC, the VT fuze was not actually tested until Spring 1943 and not combat tested until November 1943 (USS HELENA IIRC). Thereafter, it was a question of ramping up production to meet insatiable demand in the Pacific theater of operations. Once production had caught up to demand, it was provided to the ETO where it was employed against the V1's and was ALSO employed by US field artillery, in which capacity it revolutionized the effectiveness of airburst fire. This greatly increased the overall lethality of US artillery.

BLUTARSKI

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

My sources note the first test in January 1942 followed by pre-combat trial in August 1942. The first batch (5000 rounds) was delivered to a operational unit in November 1942. The first unit to use them in action was the U.S.S Helena on 5th of January 1943.

Cheers

Athos

Over the Hills and O'er the Main,
To Flanders, Portugal and Spain,
The Queen commands and we'll obey
Over the Hills and far away.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>



..... Athos, you're absolutely correct. I had my dates ALL screwed up. This perfectly demonstrates the dangers of working without one's reference books at hand.

BLUTARSKI