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25th_Orwell-84
12-28-2004, 07:01 PM
Okay, i have a couple questions. If possible, I would love it if a Forum regular posted a detailed response with screenies, If it's not too much trouble...

1) For each specific gunsight, can you please explain ranges?
2) When should I shoot? I find myself squeezing off split second bursts in awkward ranges and turning battles(sometimes I get hits) it's a waste of ammo, So what are the "most favorable" of lowpercentage shots to take in terms of relative target aspect and velocity.
3) I like the big guns. I find some guns just don't appear to do anything, i don't fly with planes with weaps like that.. should i? am i missing out? when do you use those small guns?

i had a bunch of questions but i've forgotten them now.. lol anyway thats good for now

thanks in advance.

Von_Zero
12-28-2004, 07:44 PM
Well, m8, its 04:30 here, and i am kinda sleepy, but i thing i can give you some general ideeas:
1) i think it would not be good enough if someone would post screen, since it would matter the angle and size of the plane looking at, the best to do would be somehing loke this:
set a button for toogling icons (i am not sure if this is possible, but try binding a key to toogle the icons, or there is a console command, really dunno for sure... kinda sleepy), the turn them off, aproach your target (all this in qmb with variuos enemy planes set to empty and rookie), and when you are about to fire push pause, and turn the icons beck. look at the distance. Now... you should try shooting from as close as possible, i use 150-200m. try something like 200m. Experiment with different gunsights and targets. this way, you can learn how to aproximate the distance.
2) partly explained above. differs from the weapons you have, but try 200m, or use a value you like more, the closer the better, and NEVER spray and pray... it won't work.
Try aiming for the engine, wing roots, pilot, fuel tanks, vital/fragile parts in genera (engines on 109 and Mustang, wing roots on P47 and yaks, etc). Try wheter you prefer deflection shots or stright-six . the latter may be the easier, but is not always the better, los of armor, less vital parts (controls maybe..). I prefer attacks from 4-5/7-8 o'clock hig, this way you can use one burst to "try" whiping the engine, wing roos and pilot with a single "longish" burst.
3) big guns mean littel muzzle velocity=> more deflection=> difficult aiming=> less probability to hit.
If using cannons such the mk108, just fire on short 3-4 rounds burst, using plenty of deflection, and only when you are sure you will hit. Don't try to be a sniper unless you aim VERY VERY good. Also don't fire anything larger than 20mm from more than 150-200m maximmum.
sorry for spelling or if didn't make any sense, as i said, i am halfway snorring.....'nighty

xray-uniform
12-28-2004, 09:40 PM
It sounds like you're trying to make long range deflection shots. I'm not great at gunnery either, but I'll repeat some advice I've heard alot of times from many people:
"In aerial gunnery, get close to your target. When you think you're close enough, get closer. When the bandit fills your windscreen, open up with everything you've got"
Also, for deflection shots, use MGs. As Von_Zero said, bigger guns have a lower rate of fire, and you'll have a harder time trying to hit a target.
Lastly, you asked for screenies showing range. There's this program out there which lets you visualise firing distances and leads. Just search Google for "IL2 Sniper's Corner" and you should get some links with a download of a Excel file and a PDF manual for the little "program".

Regards

Von_Zero
12-28-2004, 10:22 PM
yeah, i forgot about SC.... here it is: http://ourworld.cs.com/Abra772/SC_2_Eng.zip
anyway, if i can't sleep, i can at lest brows around a little http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

civildog
12-28-2004, 11:07 PM
I try to keep these two things in mind while dogfighting. They've been real-life combat proven and are simple enough to remember. They both came from WW1 but in every pilot's memior from WW2 to the present I've read the same rules again and again.

A)Boelcke's Dicta


1.
Try to secure advantages before attacking. If possible, keep the sun behind you.
2.
Always follow through an attack when you have started it.
3.
Fire only at close range, and only when your opponent is properly in your sights.
4.
Always keep your eye on your opponent, and never let yourself be deceived by ruses.
5.
In any form of attack it is essential to assail your opponent from behind.
6.
If your opponent dives on you, do not try to evade his onslaught, but fly to meet it.
7.
When over enemy lines, never forget your line of retreat.
8.
Attack in groups of four or six. When the fight breaks up into a series of single combats, take care that several do not go for one opponent.

B) Richtofen's rules: "Find the enemy, get as close a you can, shoot him down, all else is rubbish."

In other words make the enemy react to you rather than you react to him, get as close as you can, then make your first shot the only one you'll need - otherwise break off and try a different approach. Don't get fancy about it, just get in and aim for the soft chewy center.

OldMan____
12-29-2004, 06:15 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Von_Zero:
Well, m8, its 04:30 here, and i am kinda sleepy, but i thing i can give you some general ideeas:
1) i think it would not be good enough if someone would post screen, since it would matter the angle and size of the plane looking at, the best to do would be somehing loke this:
set a button for toogling icons (i am not sure if this is possible, but try binding a key to toogle the icons, or there is a console command, really dunno for sure... kinda sleepy), the turn them off, aproach your target (all this in qmb with variuos enemy planes set to empty and rookie), and when you are about to fire push pause, and turn the icons beck. look at the distance. Now... you should try shooting from as close as possible, i use 150-200m. try something like 200m. Experiment with different gunsights and targets. this way, you can learn how to aproximate the distance.
2) partly explained above. differs from the weapons you have, but try 200m, or use a value you like more, the closer the better, and NEVER spray and pray... it won't work.
Try aiming for the engine, wing roots, pilot, fuel tanks, vital/fragile parts in genera (engines on 109 and Mustang, wing roots on P47 and yaks, etc). Try wheter you prefer deflection shots or stright-six . the latter may be the easier, but is not always the better, los of armor, less vital parts (controls maybe..). I prefer attacks from 4-5/7-8 o'clock hig, this way you can use one burst to "try" whiping the engine, wing roos and pilot with a single "longish" burst.
3) big guns mean littel muzzle velocity=> more deflection=> difficult aiming=> less probability to hit.
If using cannons such the mk108, just fire on short 3-4 rounds burst, using plenty of deflection, and only when you are sure you will hit. Don't try to be a sniper unless you aim VERY VERY good. Also don't fire anything larger than 20mm from more than 150-200m maximmum.
sorry for spelling or if didn't make any sense, as i said, i am halfway snorring.....'nighty <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

don´t agree on never spray and pray. If you fly 190 all shoot are spray and pray since you cannot see target if you are doing any deflection in shooting. Just make the spray a very short one and prey to an apropriate god.. not any pacifist one.. a god of war or destruction would be more appropriated.


And do not get TOO close too.. when firing a Mk108 at 50 meters you will get a lot of damage from enemy exploding...

But the most important advice I agreeon is VERY short bursts. I would say 90% of hits happen in the first 3 to 5 bullets you fire.. so most of the others are a waste.

VF-29_Sandman
12-29-2004, 08:00 AM
each plane fires differently. the hardest birds to shoot in are 190's and p-38's. u have to have the correct lead off angle to hit any moving target. if the plane doesnt at least fill the gunsite, ur out of range basically. .03 is 300 meters. just under 1000 feet. a hell of a long shot to make with a super-cannon mk 108.

TgD Thunderbolt56
12-29-2004, 08:17 AM
Boelcke's Dicta is excellent and timeless advice.

TB

Takata_
12-29-2004, 09:07 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by 25th_Orwell-84:
what are the "most favorable" of lowpercentage shots to take in terms of relative target aspect and velocity... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The problem about gunnery is not only target's size in your gunsight and what kind of gun (small or big) you will use to shoot at it. That's only the first half of the problem, the second half is what your own plane is doing when you are shooting.

A very small force applied on controls for aiming at target will change a hit for a miss, even if your target is very close. Ideal shots are when your own plane is perfectly lined and trimed up and your target is comming inside your gunsight.

In fact, you have to anticipate the shot, aiming at the point your target will cross when your plane will fly as straight as possible without any stick impulse.

That's why you don't have to shoot any long burst, because you won't have the right spot for a long time without the need to modify your flight path.

Such shots are the best, because all your bullets, even for a very short burst, will hit the same place in your target.

chaikanut
12-29-2004, 12:02 PM
Never shoot directly from 6' unless you have no choice or if you have big cannon or many 50cal guns. Even a small angle with single cannon airctaft can rip off tails, wings and blast aircraft to pieces, otherwise it takes ages before killing something. Always be correctly trimmed for pitch and try to guess how many clicks of the trim button are needed for each velocity. Also check that your joystick settings are smooth enough. Contrary to what everyone else said, it is very easy to be a sniper with bigger, central cannon. I can hit regularly other aircraft flying straight up to 350/400 meters and kill them with the 30mm cannon with a very short burst, it just takes a little rudder input. I find deflection tracking shots difficult, since if the aircraft is not trimmed, or if you lose speed in a dogfight and dont retrim the gunsight jumps if you pull a little more. The joystick settings dont help since they can be smooth (slider difference) only for a small range, if you want full elevator authority. As for the small guns, i guess you mean the machine guns on the early bf109 and those soviet and japanese aircraft with a single 12mm gun and either a 20mm cannon or another 7mm gun. I use the latter to nail the pilot or the engine when doing siccors in a dogfight, since they have very little ammo anyway, and the former for deflection shots up to 250 meters or to pick off engines/ gunners of isolated bombers. They have alot of ammo and allow for continuous fire.

dieg777
12-29-2004, 01:26 PM
check out this advisehttp://www.airwarfare.com/tactics/tactics_fwgunnery.htm

also see here

http://mywebpages.comcast.net/Tailspin/index.htm

look under air to air then gunnery - read Andy Bushs articles they include screen shots