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XyZspineZyX
10-23-2002, 01:07 AM
I was just in the Dambusters server (good server by the way). Anyway, there was this guy flying a fighter accusing an enemy of using the "trim cheat" to make his IL2 roll better. The guy in the IL2 says he never uses trim. You get the picture right? The guy is in a fighter calling an IL2 pilot a trim cheater for rolling.

It was at this point I realized first hand the negative effect the trimwhiners have managed to cause this game. People have used trim for years and never thought twice about it and now they have to put up with this, being called "cheaters" by uber elitist newbies who think they are FM gurus because their dad can fly a cessna.

So my suggestion for the trimwhiners is to make a game setting that turns trim off, because it isn't going to be changed anytime soon (maybe in IL3 but not FB) then you guys can have your own little servers where every plane feels like a Alexander Porkyskin special.





<img src=http://www.blastplatform.com/resources/spergregani.gif>
I'm such a nerd, I said "LOL" on the phone instead of actually laughing.

Message Edited on 10/23/0206:15PM by RayBanJockey

XyZspineZyX
10-23-2002, 01:07 AM
I was just in the Dambusters server (good server by the way). Anyway, there was this guy flying a fighter accusing an enemy of using the "trim cheat" to make his IL2 roll better. The guy in the IL2 says he never uses trim. You get the picture right? The guy is in a fighter calling an IL2 pilot a trim cheater for rolling.

It was at this point I realized first hand the negative effect the trimwhiners have managed to cause this game. People have used trim for years and never thought twice about it and now they have to put up with this, being called "cheaters" by uber elitist newbies who think they are FM gurus because their dad can fly a cessna.

So my suggestion for the trimwhiners is to make a game setting that turns trim off, because it isn't going to be changed anytime soon (maybe in IL3 but not FB) then you guys can have your own little servers where every plane feels like a Alexander Porkyskin special.





<img src=http://www.blastplatform.com/resources/spergregani.gif>
I'm such a nerd, I said "LOL" on the phone instead of actually laughing.

Message Edited on 10/23/0206:15PM by RayBanJockey

XyZspineZyX
10-23-2002, 01:15 AM
RayBanJockey wrote:

-
- It was at this point I realized first hand the
- negative effect the trimwhiners have managed to
- cause this game. -


I think you have it backwards. I'd say its the trim users on a slider that have had a negative effect on this flight sim. Stop trying to allways defend you chea....I'm mean exploit/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif


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XyZspineZyX
10-23-2002, 01:21 AM
Thank you. My feelings exactly. I don't want to win if I must use some "exploit" that everone can't use.


"There is many a boy here today who looks on war as all glory, but, boys, it is all hell. You can bear this warning voice to generations yet to come. I look upon war with horror"-

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speach to the Grand Army of the
Republic Convention,
August 11, 1880

XyZspineZyX
10-23-2002, 01:25 AM
Anyone with a throttle wheel can use it (I do) Who needs the throttle anyway??? I fly WEP 90% of the time and guess what?? Throttle doesnt' work when WEP is on.

Trim is Trim and you guys are just too lazy to want to have to use it to fly the best. Soon, in FB, you shall be joined by the "mixwhiners" (people who don't want to mix their gas)

<img src=http://www.blastplatform.com/resources/spergregani.gif>
I'm such a nerd, I said "LOL" on the phone instead of actually laughing.

XyZspineZyX
10-23-2002, 01:32 AM
Sounds good to me gets old listening to everyone whining about this and that. Whats next. maybe when you cant use your throttle for trim they will complain about the blackout cheat.

XyZspineZyX
10-23-2002, 02:23 AM
I really ought to keep my mouth shut here, but I can't resist the urge to toss my flamebait in.

As far as I'm concerned, until RayBan there gets rid of his sig image, I've got better things to complain about than the trim-jockeys.

*grin*

----------
"Till shade is gone, till water is gone, into the Shadow with teeth bared, screaming defiance with the last breath, to spit in Sightblinder's eye on the Last Day."
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Jets Are For Kids.

Message Edited on 10/23/0205:25AM by njbCowboy

XyZspineZyX
10-23-2002, 02:34 AM
Ray is an ACE. Don't ever question what he says../i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

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XyZspineZyX
10-23-2002, 04:28 AM
Comparing mixing fuel to assigning trim to the throttle to get instant full deflection to elevator at high speeds in combat situation is laughable.

Real pilots could trim but not so rapidly as to give them full deflection in either direction at high speeds. It's completely unrealistic and in a community of flyers where sportsmanship is important it's an unwelcome tactic.

XyZspineZyX
10-23-2002, 04:41 AM
1 H4V3 4LL TR1MZ S3T 0N R0T4R33Z 4 I 0WN U 4LL? L4M3RZ.

XyZspineZyX
10-23-2002, 04:41 AM
AFJmediaXS wrote:
- Comparing mixing fuel to assigning trim to the
- throttle to get instant full deflection to elevator
- at high speeds in combat situation is laughable.

But remember RBJ is an Uberpilot who needs this exploit to maintain his image else he might appear vulnerable. Its not laughable to such a loser.

It's completely unrealistic and in a
- community of flyers where sportsmanship is important
- it's an unwelcome tactic.

Problem is sportmanship means nothing to a loser.

fox out

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XyZspineZyX
10-23-2002, 04:47 AM
not a totally silly suggestion, unfortunately there is no option to disable trim or i suspect some hosts would be doing just that

XyZspineZyX
10-23-2002, 06:13 AM
Idiot.

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XyZspineZyX
10-23-2002, 06:14 AM
Why do you always start cheat threads ?
Gets everyones attention ?

You probably dreamed about the Il-2 incident cos I havn't
seen anyone call someone a cheat on HL and after yesterdays trimcheat debate you just happened to see this.Hmm

Surely the guys that want this sim to be as realistic and
fair as possible is a step in the right direction, while the ones finding small defects in the programming and utilizing them is a step back.

Then again I don't think your really serious about all this.
Seems to me your just in it for a laugh and a stir./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

XyZspineZyX
10-23-2002, 07:06 AM
Here we go again.

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XyZspineZyX
10-23-2002, 07:56 AM
Rayban may not be an ace but at least he has the common sense to attribute his online losses to something other than a non-existing cheat. Why non-existing? While the speed if employment maybe unrealistic the effect is not. Furthermore, whether it's on a slider or a HOTAS macro it doesn't matter since they can both be applied too fast.

AFAIAC, trim does not impart any uberness to an opponent unless both stalls are disabled AND externals are allowed. Since I don't fly these servers in the first place I have yet to experience the so-called bat-turn outside of lag/warp. Quit looking for excuses and admit it when someone is better than you - I have done it a gazillion times! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Yes I have a HOTAS, and yes I have elevator trim on a rotary, and no I don't flick it around, but I'll be damned if someone is going to try to restrict my fun on account of an un-substantiated exploit - yes I've seen the tracks and have gotten into this discussion a gazillion times before, there's just nothing extra-ordinary about it so long as realism settings are full.

<hr width="400">Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes.
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XyZspineZyX
10-23-2002, 08:11 AM
Ray...

you're an idiot /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

____________________
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XyZspineZyX
10-23-2002, 08:20 AM
There is always One idiot

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XyZspineZyX
10-23-2002, 08:30 AM
An Ace like that guy in the sig./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

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XyZspineZyX
10-23-2002, 08:35 AM
RayBanJockey wrote:
- Anyone with a throttle wheel can use it (I do) Who
- needs the throttle anyway??? I fly WEP 90% of the
- time and guess what?? Throttle doesnt' work when WEP
- is on.
-

wow! never thought that! Why not 100% time wep on, and always goin straight! Yes, and keep your gears always down too, so you have one more key to use.

(no better deaf than the one that doesn't want to hear)

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XyZspineZyX
10-23-2002, 08:53 AM
I think we shouldn't have to be rude with RayBanJockey.

Rather to discuss what he writes (what to discuss?), it would be better to take his posts as a kind of modern art performance, sometimes strange, but often funky!

Cheers,

XyZspineZyX
10-23-2002, 09:00 AM
Hi CHDT

Guess there´s no discussion needed. Trimcheats are cheats as others too./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

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XyZspineZyX
10-23-2002, 09:10 AM
I read people use joysticks with more than 2 button, throttle sliders and rudder control.

Damn cheats, they can do incredible manouvers and can change engine power easily with it....

XyZspineZyX
10-23-2002, 09:14 AM
I say it again: The trimwhiners should start to realise that that it not about the joystick. You can do the exact same thins (instantaneous trimming) using the keyboard using a macro program.

XyZspineZyX
10-23-2002, 09:17 AM
JPI99 wrote:
- I read people use joysticks with more than 2 button,
- throttle sliders and rudder control.
-
- Damn cheats, they can do incredible manouvers and
- can change engine power easily with it....
-
-

LMAO! Real men use the keyboard! Two-button joystick indeed! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

<hr width="400">Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes.
That way, when you criticize them, you're a mile away and have their
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XyZspineZyX
10-23-2002, 09:40 AM
" say it again: The trimwhiners should start to realise that that it not about the joystick. You can do the exact same thins (instantaneous trimming) using the keyboard using a macro program."


And that's because I say again, again and again, that the trim speed must be slow down with a delay, no matter with what it is used, a joystick, an axis, the keyboard or whatever you can imagine to pervert the realism of the game.

In fact, the only question should be: do you want in a realistic sim to see aircrafts flying in a realistic way?

To this question, I say YES.

Cheers,


P.S. Hi Kimura, basically we agree /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif I just call the trim on an axis a "trick" and not a "cheat", but in the end, we you see the aircrafts flying, it's the same!

XyZspineZyX
10-23-2002, 09:48 AM
CHDT

Did you ever seen Redwulf 48 trimcheat track? I store that at my HD. That track shows a G-6/AS diving and zoom out with maybe 20G´s (calculated) without any blackouts for the pilot. I guess that´s not a trick that´s a CHEAT - right?/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

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XyZspineZyX
10-23-2002, 09:53 AM
Yep, Kimura, it's just a kind of terminology. As this trim exploit is possible without doing something to the game engine, it's not really a cheat,but a way of exploiting this sim on the contrary of its philosophy. But in the end, playing like that is like cheating, as the players who don't use this trick are not able to know if they are shot down because they did a mistake or for another reason!

Cheers,

XyZspineZyX
10-23-2002, 09:59 AM
"track shows a G-6/AS diving and zoom out with maybe 20G´s (calculated) without any blackouts for the pilot. I guess that´s not a trick that´s a CHEAT - right?"


Perfectly right, for instance a P-51 wing should break at 10.3G! Another example, the Banshee was limited to 8,3G in a dive.

So flying this way is a CHEAT against reality. It's a simple question of common sense and I don't understand the people (or I understand them too well) who cannot accept it.

And I don't speak on the ones who fly in external views just to avoid blackouts in hard turns!

So online tracks (if they are precise and not just a calculated estimation) is a really welcome feature for FB to see what really happened!

Cheers,

XyZspineZyX
10-23-2002, 10:01 AM
AFJmediaXS wrote:
- Comparing mixing fuel to assigning trim to the
- throttle to get instant full deflection to elevator
- at high speeds in combat situation is laughable.
-
- Real pilots could trim but not so rapidly as to give
- them full deflection in either direction at high
- speeds. It's completely unrealistic and in a
- community of flyers where sportsmanship is important
- it's an unwelcome tactic.
-
Well said.

-----Jurinko-----

"Germans will position their fighters at different altitudes, especially when expecting to encounter our fighters. Fw-190 will fly at 1,500-2,500 meters and Me-109G at 3,500-4,000 meters. They interact in the following manner: Fw-190 will attempt to close with our fighters hoping to get behind them and attack suddenly. If that maneuver is unsuccessful they will attack head-on relying on their superb firepower. After that, Fw-190 will enter the turning fight, preferring the left turn. This will also break up our battle formations to allow Me 109Gs to attack our fighters as well."

Soviet Fighter tactics, 1943.

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XyZspineZyX
10-23-2002, 10:04 AM
CHDT

A cheat is defined by it´s intention not by technology./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif If I use that "trick" in the know the FM doesn´t detect that failure and the me chasing pilot also is fighting without that "trick", and I´m alone using that that "trick" the FM is unable to locate/detect it´s automatic a CHEAT - easy that./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

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XyZspineZyX
10-23-2002, 10:22 AM
My suggestion would be to respect each other and dont deliberatly try to offend people. For example; trimwhiners is not a very friendly designation for people.

Let's stop all this name-calling and give eachother the respect we all deserve.



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He knows no manners...
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michapma
10-23-2002, 10:44 AM
Swiss tagteam!

I still cannot see how it matters whether the use of trim to turn faster can be of much advantage in combat, as long as the plane drains energy in accordance. In this sense it doesn't matter whether it's a cheat, expoit, trick, or fully legitimate manoeuver. It seems to me that it can only help you avoid someone making a pass and result in losing your energy. It also might be helpful to avoid hitting the ground.

RayBan, as a proponent of the use of trim, help me understand how one can use it to an advantage in engagments? I am curious about this.

Greetings from Zurich,
Mike

XyZspineZyX
10-23-2002, 11:16 AM
Yes please explain this trim cheat. I only ever use trim to get to level flying and sometime a nose down attitude during combat and that the lot.

If it is a cheat then I personally would not use it but would like to know how to spot others who may be gaining an unfair advantage. God knows, life is hard enough for us 109 pilots as it is.



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twilight he would kill Mowgli, the Frog!

Hunter82
10-23-2002, 11:21 AM
My only gripe about this whole thing is the fact that I own a Cougar,I have trim assigned to a wheel. By admission of this by most people comments/opinions that would make me a cheat....hmmmmm good theory.

Trim in any fashion is currently too fast..keyboard,stick,macro,slider,wheel, dogsled...ahh you get my drift. A timed deployment as most of us have said like flaps is what is needed.

I get very offended by the term cheat and it's ease of use by many online to console their virtual egos after a solid legitimate thrashing by some. There are better players out their than yourself.

Once we cry wolf and stop learning from others to better our abilities we are no better than those that use the 'exploits'. We're using a crutch to explain our loss as they are to create a win. This argument is no better than the VVS have better planes the Luft. That one IMHO is hilarious and a definite excuse for lack of ability...pssst I fly a 109 /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

This perception has now created a everyone uses trim as a cheat online and we have 1000 chicken littles running around screaming the sky is falling. Remeber people ones perception is their reality..no matter how baseless it is in theory.

Enough said about this. I think too many of you are wrapped too tight and need a hug on this subject. Go pet a puppy,smoke a cig,have a drink or something jeez. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif


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XyZspineZyX
10-23-2002, 11:31 AM
Its funny how Ray allways has these stories "I was flying last night and some accused someone else of trim cheating ...blah ..blah...blah".

I think our ACE makes these up so he can carry on his arguement about the trim cheat?

This reminds me of the guy who was boasting of beating up a Nazi cause he thought he would impress us.

----------------------------------------

AKA JG5_Emil

"I just wish we could all have the courage to confine our defense to three simple words: LICK MY ***!" Hermann Goering

XyZspineZyX
10-23-2002, 11:36 AM
This so-called cheat seems to only be a problem to people complaining about it in the endless turning fight dogfight severs. I don't see why everyone else has to have trim messed around with at the behest of a few people who indulge in such stuff /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

*****

My friend, you would not tell with such high zest
To children ardent for some desperate glory,
The old Lie: Dulce et decorum est
Pro patria mori.

XyZspineZyX
10-23-2002, 11:36 AM
I'm not sure "most" of people don't have trims on a wheel.
Most of my teammates have HOTAS (Cougar or X-36/45) with trims on wheels. Flying german planes without pitch trim is a pain in the @$$.

Some people with "normal" joysticks have pitch trim assigned on their throttle slider and use keyboard for throttle.

I have pitch trim on a driving wheel (yeah, just like on the 109, great for immersion /i/smilies/16x16_robot-wink.gif ). But it does not helps me alot in dogfight, believe me ! /i/smilies/16x16_robot-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_robot-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_robot-very-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
10-23-2002, 11:42 AM
Fresshness wrote:
- My suggestion would be to respect each other and
- dont deliberatly try to offend people. For example;
- trimwhiners is not a very friendly designation for
- people.
-
- Let's stop all this name-calling and give eachother
- the respect we all deserve.
-
-

this was started by the people that's going to be named cheat-orphan-whiners... as soon as this problem will be fixed (despite the fact they don't want to).
ok, ok I was joking.... /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif Anyway, about definition of cheat or exploit I don't think it's so important. I simply call it unfair and unbalanced advantage and ask for fixing it, like many of us ask. The fact that you can even use a macro program from keyboard confirms that we need to see it fixed if we don't want to find ourself playing a game deeply modified.



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XyZspineZyX
10-23-2002, 12:05 PM
KIMURA wrote:
- CHDT
-
- Did you ever seen Redwulf 48 trimcheat track? I
- store that at my HD. That track shows a G-6/AS
- diving and zoom out with maybe 20G´s (calculated)
- without any blackouts for the pilot. I guess that´s
- not a trick that´s a CHEAT - right?/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif
-


Well guess what? That's not a trim problem but a mis-modelling of structural limits if it is indeed the case. I say call it what it really is instead of trying to fix what is, in and of itself, a sound, though arguably imperfect, implementation of trim.

<hr width="400">Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes.
That way, when you criticize them, you're a mile away and have their
shoes!
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XyZspineZyX
10-23-2002, 12:52 PM
I have another suggestion..
Allow the trim to be used in this matter, but make it more realistic. If you go full deflection instantly and at high speeds, have the tail come off! That would fix everything...LOL
Mani


PS: i use trim all the time. I have 2 "buttons" set on my joystick. 1 for positive and the other for negative, but it only reacts as fast as my thumb. While in a turn fight, i'm constantly trimming nose up, and no this isn't unrealistic.....in a real sim i do the same, when we practice steep turns at 45 degrees, i use trim throughout the entire turn, but on the aircraft i fly, we have electric trim which is really nicehttp://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif.


"An excellent weapon and luck had been on my side. To be successfful, the best fighter pilot needs both"
Adolph Galland

Message Edited on 10/23/0201:01PM by Manicoti

XyZspineZyX
10-23-2002, 01:37 PM
Anyway, about definition of
- cheat or exploit I don't think it's so important. I
- simply call it unfair and unbalanced advantage and
- ask for fixing it, like many of us ask. The fact
- that you can even use a macro program from keyboard
- confirms that we need to see it fixed if we don't
- want to find ourself playing a game deeply modified.

I agree this should be addressed. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif



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He knows no manners...
</center>

XyZspineZyX
10-23-2002, 02:39 PM
I've had trimwhiners accuse me of cheating while I'm flying the I-16.

(note: the I-16 has no trim)

Ӕ éª -90, 805 ˜€

XyZspineZyX
10-23-2002, 03:03 PM
>>I still cannot see how it matters whether the use of trim to turn faster can be of much advantage in combat, as long as the plane drains energy...<<

OK. Here is how this works.

In IL-2, above approximately 300kph, the force of the airstream on the flight controls is modeled. This prevents you from moving the flight controls to their full deflection...and this in turn reduces your control effectiveness.

The trim function can be used to give you back the ability to move the flight control to full deflection. Doing so gives you back your full control authority.

The end result is that trim can help increase turn performance when airloads become a factor.

This was true in real life and is true in this game.

The problem is the speed at which the trim input can be made. In real life, the trim wheel or knob moved the trim relatively slowly. In the game, when using a slider or rotary device, the trim input can be made very quickly.

The result is an increase in pitch or roll in the game that could not be made in real life.

A second problem is the use of the external view to avoid the high g "blackout". When this technique is combined with the use of HOTAS trim input, then the result is turn performance that is not "normal" or "realistic".

In any case, the issue (for those that want it to be an issue) is not going away until the developers modify the trim input rate.

XyZspineZyX
10-23-2002, 03:15 PM
Andy_Bush wrote:
- >>I still cannot see how it matters whether the use
- of trim to turn faster can be of much advantage in
- combat, as long as the plane drains energy...<<
-
- OK. Here is how this works.
-
- In IL-2, above approximately 300kph, the force of
- the airstream on the flight controls is modeled.
- This prevents you from moving the flight controls to
- their full deflection...and this in turn reduces
- your control effectiveness.
-
- The trim function can be used to give you back the
- ability to move the flight control to full
- deflection. Doing so gives you back your full
- control authority.
-
- The end result is that trim can help increase turn
- performance when airloads become a factor.
-
- This was true in real life and is true in this game.
-
- The problem is the speed at which the trim input can
- be made. In real life, the trim wheel or knob moved
- the trim relatively slowly. In the game, when using
- a slider or rotary device, the trim input can be
- made very quickly.
-
- The result is an increase in pitch or roll in the
- game that could not be made in real life.
-
- A second problem is the use of the external view to
- avoid the high g "blackout". When this technique is
- combined with the use of HOTAS trim input, then the
- result is turn performance that is not "normal" or
- "realistic".
-
- In any case, the issue (for those that want it to be
- an issue) is not going away until the developers
- modify the trim input rate.
-
-

Hi andy... I agree with most of what you say except for the last part /i/smilies/16x16_robot-happy.gif

so Im gonna hammer a few more nails into this discussion.

Yes the trim input could prolly be reduced a bit and it would eliminate the need for this entire trim cheat discussion but that only cures the symptom. The real problem, ( and I agree with Jetbuff above) is how the structural limitiation of the air craft are modelled. Start breaking off more elevators and Im sure we'd see a lot less of this trim cheat nonsense.

'blur'ski

When you give up freedom for security you have neither

XyZspineZyX
10-23-2002, 03:55 PM
Hi Mike

That track Redwulf 48 created shows NO significant loss of speed while using that trimcheat. Turning with that cheat the FM didn't detect that high G-loads and the expected lose of speed, it's completely turned off.

In case you're at his 6 and he's using that cheat you can't follow him, cause he doesn't loose energy but you do./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

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XyZspineZyX
10-23-2002, 04:00 PM
unrealistic maybe, but less than typeing for 10 seoncds to get a full trim while real pilot with wheel command would need two-three seconds...

no matter how you put it, you'll always have to accept some difference with the real. personnaly, I find more interesting to have trim that's accurate within a 2 seconds margin than by 8 seconds, what do you think?

XyZspineZyX
10-23-2002, 04:07 PM
JETBUFF

You're right. The FM is lacking to be able to detect that kind of extreme trim. Normally, if stressed structure would be modelled, wings would be teared off under this xtrem G-loads but it doesn't. Also, I mentioned above, the FM doesn't detect the to expected pilot blackouts although.

That is why it turns to a cheat. YOU as custom pilot experience blackouts and loose of speed the cheating pilots experience neither blackout nor losse of speed./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

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michapma
10-23-2002, 04:11 PM
Hi Andy,

I've read in previous posts how the trim can be used to accelerate a turn, even beyond structural limits, by allowing elevator authority that the strength of a pilot's arms would otherwise not allow. What I don't understand is how this can be used to an advantage, although one possible use has just occurred to me.

The only possibility of an advantage I can see is if you are in a high-speed head-on and someone uses quick trim input to whip his plane around before you, so that he is quickly on your six before you can turn. However, if you see this happening, you can observe that you now have a higher energy (since the opponent has drained off so much by turning so quickly with trim), so you extend somewhat. It ultimately is only an advantage if the person not using the trim is going to keep trying to turn into their opponent using trim. I still don't see how it ultimately negatively leads to a gross advantage over an energy-conscious pilot. If it doesn't lead to a roughly corresponding energy loss as Kimura indicates, then maybe there is an advantage to be had.

It doesn't help at low speeds, and people are not usually turning and burning at high speeds where air loading becomes a factor.

So, am I correct in thinking that the use of trim is being used to quickly about-face after a head-on? I suppose you could trick somebody into a dive-out and then use trim input to pull up quicker, causing them to dive into the ground (if they're so naive).

Is that clearer?

Blurski: I don't think that the elevators would snap off, because it is still the wings which are taking most of the stress (the elevator is only serving to change the angle of attack of the wings). My guess is that it is more likely that the wings and/or fuselage would come apart.

So my question to RayBan and others remains the same: how do you use quick trim input in your combat tactics? I am still curious about this.

Mike

XyZspineZyX
10-23-2002, 04:15 PM
JPI99 wrote:
- 1 H4V3 4LL TR1MZ S3T 0N R0T4R33Z 4 I 0WN U 4LL?
- L4M3RZ.
-
-

its true, this game has become counter strike!!!


You'll eed to get over it, if you like sitting on your hi horse. Dont use trim at all. If its a cheat, don't you think oleg would remove it.. If its not a big concern to him, It's not to me either.

Besides, like someone else said, its not really an effective trick unless the stall and black outs are off. If this is true, why are you'll debating it at all. All you big full reaL (lets debate this too, is it real or is it just harder) guys would never fly like that anyway, right.

XyZspineZyX
10-23-2002, 04:21 PM
TooCool_12f wrote:
while real pilot with
- wheel command would need two-three seconds...

With the greatest of respect: the trim cheat allows you to apply full trim in the amount of time it takes to apply your slider to full e.g 0.2 of a second. Flying a Cessna or Piper it takes I would say around 6-8 seconds at least, in a WW2 aircraft this could be must longer or shorter I dont know but it cannot be done in any aircraft I know in such a short amount of time.

I am not trying to flame you TooCool but I hope you might see my point on this matter

The main point is that it appears that the aircraft does not loose energy as has been demonstrated in the track. That is why I think this is cheating, we can all argue whether an exploit is or is not cheating but this surely is not the way the IL2 FM was supposed to be used.



----------------------------------------

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XyZspineZyX
10-23-2002, 04:33 PM
Mike

>>So, am I correct in thinking that the use of trim is being used to quickly about-face after a head-on? I suppose you could trick somebody into a dive-out and then use trim input to pull up quicker, causing them to dive into the ground (if they're so naive).<<

Yes. Those are two good examples of when this trim technique would prove advantageous.

One aspect of this isuue that has been mentioned only briefly in previous discussions is the speed at which air loads become evident in IL-2. Most agree that this situation seems to begin at about 300kph in most of the IL-2 aircraft. Some (and I'm one of them) think that this speed is a little low...that control stiffening due to air loads should occur at a higher speed.

What speed? This would vary with each aircraft type and model...and I'm no expert on this issue. I think 300kph (about 180mph) is probably about right for the earlier fighters, but not for the fighters that came along later in the war.

I see three issues that need answers. One, the rate at which trim inputs can be made. Two, the lack of blackout when using an external view. And three, the possibility that the FM does not recognize excessive G in the external view.

Personally, I'd like to see all three changed...particularly the last two since I'm a big advocate of the external view when flying BFM.

XyZspineZyX
10-23-2002, 05:30 PM
"That track Redwulf 48 created shows NO significant loss of speed while using that trimcheat. Turning with that cheat the FM didn't detect that high G-loads and the expected lose of speed, it's completely turned off."


Perfectly right, I like to play offline at high altitudes with quick missions. And when I'm making at high altitude a high-speed turn with a high G-load, I've of course very often the stick "on my balls" with no further movements possible. If I map the elevator trim on my throttle for instance, it becomes this way soooo easy to raise the nose of the aircraft for aiming and this WITHOUT losing energy or stalling.



"...unrealistic maybe, but less than typeing for 10 seoncds to get a full trim while real pilot with wheel command would need two-three seconds..."


No, TooCool, not in a 109 for instance. I sat in the Emil preserved at Dübendorf and I tried to move the controls. I'm not especially tall, but even in this case, the room for the pilot is very small. To move the trim knob on the left panel, it's also not so easy as you can't use the full deployement of your arm. And to go from "full trim down" to "full trim up", you have to make 10 turns on this knob. Don't forget also that at high speeds, the controls of the 109 become very heavy and the 109 pilot has to keep very often both hands on the stick. So on a 109, it's not possible to move the elevator trim in less than one second like it's now possible in Il-2 with axis or macros.

So, I've mapped the elevator on two buttons of my Afterburner throttle, one for up, one for down, and this way, it looks realistic to me to control the attitude of the aircraft for easing the pressure on the stick.

Cheers,

XyZspineZyX
10-23-2002, 05:49 PM
Andy,

It was nice of you to explain to everybody on how the cheat works, how to use it, and how to use it in combat. I'm sure there are some guys out there who wern't sure before on how to use it. Who now through your instructions,can cheat away to their hearts content. Way to go.

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XyZspineZyX
10-23-2002, 06:12 PM
JEEZ! What have I been thinking all this time? I too have trim mapped to a slide and have never used it because of some notion of wanting to stay as close to reality as possible! But, I think I'll start using it all the time now! I also want to hack cheat and alter the FM so as to have vectored thrust and titanium alloys throughout the a/c. Yeah! That's it! Why stick with something that accuratly models physics? Let's have a good time with a silly arcade game. Afterall, it's not like there are too many of those out there. WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!

XyZspineZyX
10-23-2002, 07:38 PM
Thanks Andy Bush. After this technical explanation, the advantage/cheat deniers (and users obviously) can just shut up once for all!

Abraxa
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XyZspineZyX
10-23-2002, 08:16 PM
Andy_Bush wrote:
- I see three issues that need answers. One, the rate
- at which trim inputs can be made. Two, the lack of
- blackout when using an external view. And three, the
- possibility that the FM does not recognize excessive
- G in the external view.
-


1) If the rate of trim input is slowed it won't make whole lot of difference. Set your slider/rotary to where you want the trim to be and it will get there. Those who see a cheat or exploit now will still see a cheat or exploit if such a change is made. Those who are convinced that there is some advantage to having trim on a HOTAS won't be happy unless the ability to map it is removed. Even then, those who are convinced they are being out-turned by such use will cry foul since most HOTAS systems allow programming beyond what is provided in-game. The accusations will not cease; "I am being out-turned, you must have programmed trim on your Cougar!"
Andy, I don't think you claim that extraordinary turn performance is made possible by mapping trim to a HOTAS. I believe your contention is that trim mapped this way is to easy to be realistic. Just because I have trim mapped to a rotary does not mean that I "exploit" it, even if that were possible. Just because you can "exploit" lack of blackout in externals does not mean you do. This personal preference issue is being drowned out by those who are convinced that by assigning trim to a HOTAS somehow enables extraordinary turn performance. Slowing trim input won't change that (erroneous) perception.

BTW, since keyboard entry is also easier/faster than real life entry, the rate adjustment should also apply to keyboard use.

2) No blackout when using externals has to go.

3) I've never pulled my wings off with excessive G, only by exceeding Vne. Are we sure G failures are modelled at all? I'm not sure externals have anything to do with it.

Hunter82
10-23-2002, 08:26 PM
Hey guys.. Andy is a good source of information and has run a top notch site for many years emcompassing many sims. I have alot of respect for him as should you...I believe it's earned.

Now with that said... I do not agree with Andy that trim should not be mapped to a rotary knob on a HOTAS. Yes as I stated before trim deployment is TOO FAST in it's current state. If all other trim inputs...keyboard etc were set to the same rate of use then all would be good yes? The blackout in externals is a much needed feature...maybe it could be switched via difficulty settings? Who knows that's a question for Oleg.


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Hunter82
10-23-2002, 08:30 PM
No one is denying that a problem does not exhist. Just the inaccurate statements of trim use or which button/knob on a stick is mapped as a whole as a cheat. Trust me I spend alot of time around here and working on IL2.
Trim on a rotary or slider is NOT the issue. Rate of deployment IS.

Abraxa wrote:
- Thanks Andy Bush. After this technical explanation,
- the advantage/cheat deniers (and users obviously)
- can just shut up once for all!



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XyZspineZyX
10-23-2002, 08:56 PM
Hunter,

You always go on the defence, when this cheat comes up. Just because you have a Cougar. It doesn't matter that you could program it easier on a Cougar. The fact is. Even people using a keyboard, can take advantage of the trim cheat. Everybody can use it, if they want.

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XyZspineZyX
10-23-2002, 09:01 PM
>>I don't think you claim that extraordinary turn performance is made possible by mapping trim to a HOTAS.<<

That is correct. In fact, in my recent article on trim, I mentioned that I have the trim feature mapped to my TM F-22 Pro...but, I also mentioned that I use one of the top hat switches for this function. This means I still have to trim with one "click" at a time...I cannot use this switch to put trim in any quicker than I can using the keyboard. It's just easier for me to use the stick...and it's exactly the same control that I used in a real world fighter.

It takes about 20 keyboard key presses to now move the trim from neutral to the full control deflection position. The time that this takes is a reasonable approximation of the time that it would take the real world WW2 pilot to make the same magnitude of input...and time is the issue here.

Sliders and rotaries allow trim to be made much quicker than what I have just described. When I was testing this feature, I mapped trim to my TM TQS throttle. I was able to get a full trim input in the time that it took me to move the throttle from "neutral" to full throw. How long did that take? 1/2 second, maybe? The effect on the plane was just as fast...an immediate pitch or roll change.

Combine that with an actual stick movement (such as full aft stick) and I got some pretty serious pitch changes. Changes that I consider unrealistic.

>>I believe your contention is that trim mapped this way is too easy to be realistic.<<

No. "Easy" is not the right word. As I said above, I have trim mapped to my HOTAS hat switch as a matter of ease and realism. The issue is TIME. HOTAS sliders or rotaries allow the full range of trim input to be made in a fraction of the time that I can make it using my hat switch (or keyboard) or that it would take a real world pilot using a trim wheel or knob.

>>...assigning trim to a HOTAS somehow enables extraordinary turn performance. Slowing trim input won't change that (erroneous) perception.<<

It's not an erroneous perception in the cases and manner that I describe. It's a reality. Rapid and large trim inputs made above the airspeed when air loads become a factor produce pitch and roll changes that cannot be matched by "normal" trim techniques.

For those that thanked me for this explanation, no problem...I'm happy to help. I try to provide the info...what you folks do with it is your call.

XyZspineZyX
10-23-2002, 09:11 PM
It is a pure trimwhiner MYTH that you don't blackout or you don't loose energy if you use trim. Go look at Redwulfs track, he burns 100km/h in the first second he uses it and he goes into a blackout that lasts a long time.

I am the type of guy, I use trim to it's full advantage in combat. I use it to turn better, I use it to aim and keep the stick centered.

One of the trimwhiners biggest complaints is that you can access the ammount of trim too fast. Well let me tell you, as an active trim user, I don't want to be able to access it too fast either, and it has nothing to do with my "quest for reality" I would much rather prefer that I could use buttons to work the trim (sorry IL2 buttons don't autorepeat and therefore they are useless). If trim were autorepeating buttons it would slow down the deployment, as well as be more comfortable to use. Unfortunately buttons only repeat in CFS1,2 and 3 and therefore when I go to play those games I will certainly have my elevator trim assigned to 2 buttons on the joystick rather than the flippy throttle wheel.

Putting trim on a macro to tap the key 30 times in .1 seconds has limited usability. So you want to push a button to give you instant full nose up trim? Go ahaead because you will have a hard time trying to line up shots. And while you are looping you will have to actually be pushing the stick forward to keep from blacking out or turning to hard.

Anybody can pull their stick all the way back as fast as somebody can flip a lever all the way back. Therefore the rate of deployment is not the fairness issue here. Anybody with a throttle wheel (which by the way, under WEP in IL2 the throttle is useless/unresponsive) can use trim. The only thing that matters as far as fairness (although I think being able to use trim to line up shots is a great advantage) is that you can turn better at higher speeds (overcome the stick compressability) (you know, how real life pilots used to use it)

Therefore if you don't have trim on a wheel then you should, just as you should use flaps to land and WEP to go faster.

<img src=http://www.blastplatform.com/resources/spergregani.gif>
I'm such a nerd, I said "LOL" on the phone instead of actually laughing.

Message Edited on 10/23/0204:11PM by RayBanJockey

XyZspineZyX
10-23-2002, 09:51 PM
Manicoti wrote:
- I have another suggestion..
- Allow the trim to be used in this matter, but make
- it more realistic. If you go full deflection
- instantly and at high speeds, have the tail come
- off! That would fix everything...LOL
- Mani
-
-
- PS: i use trim all the time. I have 2 "buttons" set
- on my joystick. 1 for positive and the other for
- negative, but it only reacts as fast as my thumb.
- While in a turn fight, i'm constantly trimming nose
- up, and no this isn't unrealistic.....in a real sim
- i do the same, when we practice steep turns at 45
- degrees, i use trim throughout the entire turn, but
- on the aircraft i fly, we have electric trim which
- is really nicehttp://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif.

I also use the "2 buttons on the joystick set up". I, as all RL Pilots do, use trim all the time. When flying the Dash 8 (or any other plane for that matter) I always have a hand on or near the trim wheel. This is so my plane will fly 'hands off' and I don't have to hold any control pressures. So not using or taking trim out of the game is not the solution to this problem. What needs to be done is to have the individual aircraft's structural G limits put into the flight models.

Now, if someone does anything that exceeds the structural load limits of the airframe, some type of failure will happen to the airframe, such as a wing or tail coming off.

With this implimented, it doesn't matter if you use trim to really tighten a turn up. If you pull to many G's, say good-bye to the part of the aircraft that you overstressed.
This is what would happen in a real Aircraft. It doesn't matter how you do it (with trim or some other method). If you overstress the design limits of the airframe, it breaks.

XyZspineZyX
10-23-2002, 10:58 PM
Hey Dash 8,how r ya?!!
It's been awhile since i've seen you.
How's the flying? It's been real slow here for me. WOuld you believe i've only flown 95hrs since last October?!!
Hope to see you around and maybe fly with you sometime.
Take care/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif
mani

PS: i don't know if you'll read this response, but if you do and respond, i'll be gone on holidays for a week so i'll catch up with you when i get back.

"An excellent weapon and luck had been on my side. To be successfful, the best fighter pilot needs both"
Adolph Galland

XyZspineZyX
10-23-2002, 11:13 PM
Peaple talk'n bout not everybody has a rotery on there stick or can't get a button to repeat for trim. What the hell are you people fly'n with a joystick from the 80's? /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Hunter82
10-24-2002, 12:04 AM
I just hate being grouped into a category due to my choice of stick and where I choose to apply my settings on the equipment. Not how I use them. All to often I hear the your a cheat talk /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif I had a guy from a 'reputable' squad call me one last week /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif Nothing burns my a.. more than that. Only thing is 99.9% of the time most people don't know it's me as I fly under a different name online.......guarded secret /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif this way I get to fly and not discuss system issues /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif


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Message Edited on 10/23/0207:11PM by Hunter82

XyZspineZyX
10-24-2002, 12:21 AM
Except I know what it is Hunter. Send me your Cougar, and system, and I won't tell anybody../i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

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XyZspineZyX
10-24-2002, 12:23 AM
Geez, you are the troll extraordinare!

The "trim cheat" or "trim exploit" involves using the trim control on a wheeled controller to boost turning ability while already in a turn. In effect, using the trim to boost the plane's turning ability beyond what the plane is truly capable of doing.

This will be fixed at some point.

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Hunter82
10-24-2002, 12:25 AM
ROFLMAO
BuzzU wrote:
- Except I know what it is Hunter. Send me your
- Cougar, and system, and I won't tell anybody


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XyZspineZyX
10-24-2002, 12:38 AM
Cossack13 wrote:

- The "trim cheat" or "trim exploit" involves using
- the trim control on a wheeled controller to boost
- turning ability while already in a turn. In effect,
- using the trim to boost the plane's turning ability
- beyond what the plane is truly capable of doing.
-
- This will be fixed at some point.


Sorry, but it won't be fixed, and guess what, the plane was already capable of doing it. Real pilots used trim to turn better. Flying the plane as good as you can has never been a crime. The aces use trim to fly better, and the newbs use trim as an excuse. Thats the way I see it.



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XyZspineZyX
10-24-2002, 12:40 AM
I'm no ace but I use do use trim. I'm not really a newb, but I can't use it as an excuse.

Here I am, stuck in the middle.

XyZspineZyX
10-24-2002, 03:20 AM
KIMURA wrote:
- Did you ever seen Redwulf 48 trimcheat track? I
- store that at my HD. That track shows a G-6/AS
- diving and zoom out with maybe 20G´s (calculated)
- without any blackouts for the pilot. I guess that´s
- not a trick that´s a CHEAT - right?

People are referring to Redwulfs trk's but imo they draw the wrong conclusions from it.

As far as i'm concerned it isn't the ability to apply trim quickly that will allow you to make the pullouts.
You make the high speed pullouts with stick (pulling it back quickly) as long as you have some elevator trim applied. It doesn't matter if you apply trim quickly or slowly as long as you apply it.

Furthermore the trim "exploit" is only effective at very high speeds (at least >600kph). Now most people who play online fly WELL BELOW those speeds.

Flying at 300kph and applying trim quickly won't make you turn any faster because the stickforces at those speeds simply aren't an issue. Which means your virtual pilot can instantly yank the stick back and see the effect. So if you see guys turning quickly at those speeds, it isn't trim that is causing it. They may be using trim on a slider, but that is not what helps them turn quickly. As an example, you can turn much faster with flap use.

Anyhow, if you see guys making very high speeds dives and pullouts, well, that is the most probable situation when they use trim to make quick turns. It can easily be reckognized. And energy is lost at astonishing rate in those pullouts.

As someone already mentioned, people are accused of using trim cheat in the I16. LOLOL I think that about says it all /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

I'm not saying that trimming speed should not be reduced to realistic levels. But even if that were done, it would not change the fact that you could still make those high speed (20G?) pullouts.


/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
10-24-2002, 03:28 AM
i have a sindwinder joystick and i can assign one of the bottom buttons for trim and still use the throttle slider, and i really dont get it with the people who have problems with trim cause if you ask an ace of that time period they'll tell they used any means and ways to make kills they didnt think to thrmselves, "man, am i cheating".....come people get it together.

XyZspineZyX
10-24-2002, 03:54 AM
Rayban, many people have tried explaining it in simple terms for you but you still don't get it.

At certain speeds the compressibility limits deflection, with proper use of trim like real pilots did, you could SLOWLY increase the deflection and start pulling up.

But with trim on a slider you can whip it to max deflection INSTANTLY at high speed and basically deal with compressibility in a completely unrealistic way. No real pilots had a magic trim slider that gave them INSTANT full deflection at high speeds. Most had to crank on the trim and it took time to do that.

If trim can be applied that fast then it pretty much defeats much of the flight model that applies to everyone.
When you use trim in that manner in online games you are cheating in my opinion even if it is just an exploit.

What makes you think it won't be fixed? Slowing the rate at which trim can be applied would be an easy fix and I don't see why not in the interest of realism.



Message Edited on 10/24/0202:58AM by AFJmediaXS

XyZspineZyX
10-24-2002, 04:28 AM
I use key stroke strings and macro trim.

You can too. It's a big help.

Stop whining and make use of a game feature.

Program a stick button for multiple key strokes.

First make trim a single stroke. I use F10 for up

and F12 for down.

Then program a button for F10 30 times and another button

for F12 30 times. You will turn like an angel!

I also use a macro repeat.

The macro runs a key stroke repeatedly until you

let up on the button.

Same can be used for roll and combinations of trim

key strokes for evasive maneuvering!

It's a blast. You can press a "panic button" for pre programed

evasive. I tried it, but I prefer not to use it.

But it works like a champ!

have fun!

Vinnie

XyZspineZyX
10-24-2002, 07:10 AM
- As far as I'm concerned, until RayBan there gets rid
- of his sig image, I've got better things to complain
- about than the trim-jockeys.
-
- *grin*


Well I wasent gona say nothing on this issue BUT

since I have a fellow compatriot on the rayban bobblie head doll sig

I just wanted to b|tch about another cheat I still see being used, even tho Oleg went out of his way to correct it.

its the snapshot thing it's still out there & the scum who use it know who you are, if it isint you then dont sweat it

If it is you.... then too you sir I say... COWARD !!!

prime exzample Im chasing an FW190 in a p39 no less

he was leting me catch him but ever so slowley the chase began while I was over 4 km away & it took me a good 4 or 5 minuits to close the gap

My ping was stable @ 70 his was neer 100

no laging or any bullcrap untill I was just neer .30 or so
then I here his engine die & hes seting up a stall move

then right when he goes inverted BAM A HUGE LAG WICH WARPS ME RIGHT PAST HIM now hes on my six LMF@O!!!

thoes fw's can stall well enough withought adding a snapshot too the mix

thx god this maggot farmer did not kill me & I did the smart thing wich was climb out above him with my energy reserve then he ended up in the drink

sad thing about all of this was he was a dam good fw pilot
but he has decided that using screenshots too inhance his stalling efforts is a valid tactic, even sadder the fact that he thought I wouldnt know what he just did.
Your timing is impecable & repeatable & therefore gives you away moron get a new... real... flight tactic you have burnt that one out..................!!!

ANOTHER COWARD !!!


Media assasins !!!
dOnt bELivE tHe HyPe



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XyZspineZyX
10-24-2002, 07:26 AM
Ya noes people....

funny thing about this whole continued debate is, how people continue to say how great this sim is, and it is, and how realistic it is. Well, of course, it will never be like real life, but we all know what each other means.

Well, the latter point above leads to what I am going to ask and say.

What good it is to have all the great FM if you can flick trim in 1/4 of a second and get the max 'setting', which can make the plane do what it could never even come close to doing in real life?

Some people like RBJ come in these threads sometimes and get sarcastic about the ZOOM view because there was no ZOOM view 'key' in the planes. (Pilots did use binoculars, though.) ZOOM view helps some because obviously, again, this is not real life. We cannot see like we could in real life. But, heck, as far as I am concerned, they can get rid of that, too.

I think the main point many, many people have made is, that yes, we know we have the limitations of being on a PC, but will would still like to have the game as real as possible.

-

The most imortant thing in this sim are the flight models!

Is there anyone that flies this sim that would disagree?

-

So, I ask again...

what good it is to have all the great FM if you can flick trim in 1/4 of a second and get the max 'setting', which can make the plane do what it could never even come close to doing in real life?

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XyZspineZyX
10-24-2002, 08:46 AM
I agree with Realkill. Sorry, but in this sim, there are players who would just like to see aircrafts flying right.

So using some tricks to turn "like an angel" or to use a "panic button" to make a super-evasive manoeuvering simply ruins this game.

If you like that kind of flying, play Crimson Skies, but not IL-2.

And once again, it's not a problem of ego (for instance, I've never claimed everywhere I'm an ace). I've no problem of being shot down, when I see that the guy who destroyed my aircraft is better than me. I just say good job and salute. But when I see that kind of "super-evasive manoeuvering", I just think "poor little boy" and I leave the server.

Really, don't you see the radical opposition between a game developer who had spent years of research and years of work to develop a REALISTIC sim and some players who are just happy to find all the tricks to fly in an UNREALISTIC way.

If there were cheats in IL-2, I'm sure that these players, with that kind of mentality, would use all the available cheats. The players who are always trying to exploit all the "holes" in a game are the real danger to this game.

Cheers,

XyZspineZyX
10-24-2002, 08:58 AM
Ray Ban

I also seen that Redwulf track./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif Please don´t tell me a 90degree turn of that high level and G-load with a loose of speed of only 100km/h and w/out blackout is significant - you´re joking./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

That plane should normally became out of controll under normal circumstances if the turned that hard. A loose of ascending force would be the result and the plane would "slide" around the X-axis and completely over-steered./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif Same effect as a over-steered car./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

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XyZspineZyX
10-24-2002, 09:00 AM
IRONWARLOCK wrote:
- Peaple talk'n bout not everybody has a rotery on
- there stick or can't get a button to repeat for
- trim. What the hell are you people fly'n with a
- joystick from the 80's? /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif
-
-

Yes /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

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XyZspineZyX
10-24-2002, 09:12 AM
"....if the turned that hard."


... and this aircraft should simply break into pieces!

XyZspineZyX
10-24-2002, 09:27 AM
Sure

Guess the late 109 G-load limit was at about +/-10G for the wings. Redwulf´s turn we calculated over there @ the German Forum with about 20+G. Calculated the speed and the guessed flow turning diameter./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

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XyZspineZyX
10-24-2002, 09:56 AM
What is the point in Oleg and his team busting their asses trying to put soooo much detail and accuracy into this game when a few people do their best to disregard all those lovely details and make it as much as a first person shooter as possible?

Trim on a slider *changes* the flight model; it does not just make it easier and quicker to use trim than using keystrokes.

Slider clearly does produce much more stability and maneuvreability than using keys or buttons. I know this because I tried slider-trim dog fighting offline against similar planes, and suddenly went from finding it difficult to shoot down a rookie to shooting down two aces with no problems. The plane was simply more stable even without actually touching the slider. And when turning with the trim slider on, I could greatly out turn the AI (who were flying the same planes as me).

IL-2 is not supposed to be a first person shooter, where you just get frag after frag after frag. If you treat the game like that, then you are not reaping the potential benefits and tend to spoil it for people who are trying to get as much as possible out of the game's details and accuracy.


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XyZspineZyX
10-24-2002, 10:06 AM
KIMURA wrote:
- Sure
-
- Guess the late 109 G-load limit was at about +/-10G
- for the wings. Redwulf´s turn we calculated over
- there @ the German Forum with about 20+G. Calculated
- the speed and the guessed flow turning diameter./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif
-


Glad you see what I mean there. Forget about trim on a slider - just make the structural G-limits effective and blackouts on external views too and Voila! No more "trim-cheat".

It's like Hunter says, the way people link the exploit to having trim on a slider/rotary is just unfair and will only prevent the real problem from being solved.

The funny thing is, I don't see why you feel the need to turn that hard anyway? It does bleed an inordinate amount of E and I can't see how one could benefit from that short of delaying their eventual death. All it takes is a high yo-yo and you're back in the saddle against an E-depleted opponent who can no longer use the exploit. (if he ends up slower than 300kph)

Heh heh, that I-16 trim-cheater joke cracked me up! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

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XyZspineZyX
10-24-2002, 10:36 AM
USAAF Mustangs were limited to 7,1G and at 10,7G, the wing should break. I'm sure that these values are rather similar for most of the WWII fighters. Just an example for an early jet, the Banshee was limited in dive at 8,3G.

Another example, on 29th of March 1952, Oblt. Seipert, after a dive with his Mustang, made a very hard turn which broke the wing of the P-51 and before crashing, this wing destroyed the canopy. So, it's a bad idea to pilot a WWII aircraft like a SU-37 with movable jet-exhausts!!!

And jetzt nur für Kimura, die Schlussforgerungen dieses P-51 Unfalls:

"Die Piloten sollten über die unerwünschten Steuereigenschaften des Mustangs genügend aufgekl¤rt und systematisch mit dem Fliegen solcher Flugzeuge mit wenig progressiv oder gar unstabil verlaufenden Steuerkr¤ften vertraut gemacht werden, soweit dies ohne Ueberschreiten der Grenzen überhaupt m¶glich ist."

Short translation, if you move your stick like a mad monkey, even within the aircraft limitations, you're gonna have serious problems!!!

Cheers,

XyZspineZyX
10-24-2002, 10:49 AM
CHDT and JEFFBUFF

I hope Oleg did some work for the DM (guess I read about that, but not sure yet) and involved G-limits for FB. Also as Jeff mentioned the blackout feature for external view would stop those kind of cheats instantly(Online)./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

I´m curious./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif




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XyZspineZyX
10-24-2002, 10:55 AM
" Sorry, but it won't be fixed, and guess what, the plane was already capable of doing it. Real pilots used trim to turn better. Flying the plane as good as you can has never been a crime. The aces use trim to fly better, and the newbs use trim as an excuse. Thats the way I see it. "

Cut repeating the bullshi*.

No sane pilot would keep his left hand out of either the stick or the throttle during combat. Neither do the trims respond in the given time, nor do they effect flight as much as the pilot would need to use it in combat.

The only active instances of trims mentioned as important as primary flight controls is in overspeed conditions, which the pilot shouldn't be flying into combat with in the first place.

If using trims is so important in the way they effect aiming, turn radius or has some importance in that using it during combat acts as a distinctive advantage - and advantage enough to make you want to set it on a slider, then THE WAY IT IS MODELLED IS WRONG. Plain and simple.

Don't confuse what you think and how it was.

Are you really willing to argue real life pilots grunted their left arm into position and rotated the cumbersome wheel, at the same time maintained stick pressure enough to get the turn radius you want with only the right arm when going 600kph at at least +5G condition?

Get a grip, friend. If there was such a real life pilot like that he'd have chest and arm muscles of the incredible Hulk. Even if there was such a person the plane won't handle the stress.

So, stop justifying by arguing the crap was "used by real life pilots". Just stick to your "gaming the gaming" principles, because that's at least more logical.

ps) You might want to read a bit on how the use of trims for the purpose you so keenly support was strictly prohibited in many planes, one such case being the Hawker Tempest.


----------

"It's the machine, not the man"

- Materialist, and proud of it!

Message Edited on 10/24/02 06:57PM by kweassa

Message Edited on 10/24/0207:01PM by kweassa

XyZspineZyX
10-24-2002, 11:10 AM
Real-life WWII pilots used rotary knobs...

http://genji.image.pbase.com/u6/chrisdnt/upload/6274398.P51sidepanels.jpg


http://www.pbase.com/image/6274398

... and not macros /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif


So Kweassa is right, a real-life WWII pilot couldn't go from "full trim down" to "full trim up" in less than one second. He had to make turns on a rotary knob, very often under high-G loads, what was probably not an easy job!

Cheers,

XyZspineZyX
10-24-2002, 11:26 AM
I think Ray needs to learn how to use his joystick after all that is what real pilots use for control. Flying with the trim as the main form of control is for noobs.

And by the way nobody I talk to at Hyper has ever heard of you.Time to show your self we could all use the target practice.Do you fly under a differant name?

No1RAAF_Pourshot

http://www.froggy.com.au/edinkulelija/no1raaf/image/thumbnail/p39p.jpg


some are the hunters the rest are the hunted

XyZspineZyX
10-24-2002, 11:28 AM
Of course I fly under another name. Otherwise I would get team killed like crazy. I use both the joystick and the elevator trim on my throttle wheel in synchronicity.

<img src=http://www.blastplatform.com/resources/spergregani.gif>
I'm such a nerd, I said "LOL" on the phone instead of actually laughing.

XyZspineZyX
10-24-2002, 11:35 AM
kweassa wrote:
- " Sorry, but it won't be fixed, and guess what, the
- plane was already capable of doing it. Real pilots
- used trim to turn better. Flying the plane as good
- as you can has never been a crime. The aces use
- trim to fly better, and the newbs use trim as an
- excuse. Thats the way I see it. "
-
- Cut repeating the bullshi*.
-
-
- No sane pilot would keep his left hand out of
- either the stick or the throttle during combat.
- Neither do the trims respond in the given time, nor
- do they effect flight as much as the pilot would
- need to use it in combat.
-
-
- The only active instances of trims mentioned as
- important as primary flight controls is in overspeed
- conditions, which the pilot shouldn't be flying into
- combat with in the first place.
-
-
- If using trims is so important in the way they
- effect aiming, turn radius or has some importance in
- that using it during combat acts as a distinctive
- advantage - and advantage enough to make you want to
- set it on a slider, then THE WAY IT IS MODELLED IS
- WRONG. Plain and simple.
-
-
- Don't confuse what you think and how it was.
-
-
- Are you really willing to argue real life pilots
- grunted their left arm into position and rotated the
- cumbersome wheel, at the same time maintained stick
- pressure enough to get the turn radius you want with
- only the right arm when going 600kph at at least
- +5G condition?
-
-
- Get a grip, friend. If there was such a real life
- pilot like that he'd have chest and arm muscles of
- the incredible Hulk. Even if there was such a person
- the plane won't handle the stress.
-
-
- So, stop justifying by arguing the crap was "used
- by real life pilots". Just stick to your "gaming the
- gaming" principles, because that's at least more
- logical.
-
-
- ps) You might want to read a bit on how the use of
- trims for the purpose you so keenly support was
- strictly prohibited in many planes



Exactly what I have been saying my friend. Raybanjockey is just doing his usual trick of winding everybody up with his bullsh@t opinions and then not replying to their retorts, He is very good at that. He blatantly knows very little about flying real aircraft. My advise is to ignore him, he is very much like Kiljoy in my opinion.

----------------------------------------

AKA JG5_Emil

"I just wish we could all have the courage to confine our defense to three simple words: LICK MY ***!" Hermann Goering

XyZspineZyX
10-24-2002, 11:36 AM
Why do you nead a differant name?I thought you said nobody could shoot you down

No1RAAF_Pourshot

http://www.froggy.com.au/edinkulelija/no1raaf/image/thumbnail/p39p.jpg


some are the hunters the rest are the hunted

XyZspineZyX
10-24-2002, 11:43 AM
Because everybody would be hunting him down like a dog for the rest of his natural life.

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

----------------------------------------

AKA JG5_Emil

"I just wish we could all have the courage to confine our defense to three simple words: LICK MY ***!" Hermann Goering

XyZspineZyX
10-24-2002, 11:49 AM
DKP wrote:
- Because everybody would be hunting him down like a
- dog for the rest of his natural life.


True but he says he is the best pilot around so he should not have any probs /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif anyway we play no icons so how could we know it was him or not? well maybe after we killed him ROFLMAO

No1RAAF_Pourshot

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some are the hunters the rest are the hunted

XyZspineZyX
10-24-2002, 12:02 PM
I think he likes to have externals on....I dont so we may never meet /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

----------------------------------------

AKA JG5_Emil

"I just wish we could all have the courage to confine our defense to three simple words: LICK MY ***!" Hermann Goering

XyZspineZyX
10-24-2002, 02:47 PM
You don't need to "trim cheat" to use "external blackout proof cheat" with externals.

IMHO, the main issue with externals (and the reason why I don't like them), is you can use it as IFF, even with icons off.

XyZspineZyX
10-24-2002, 02:59 PM
rgr that

Thats why I fly "Full Real" only no externals no Pl unless someone else really really wants it

----------------------------------------

AKA JG5_Emil

"I just wish we could all have the courage to confine our defense to three simple words: LICK MY ***!" Hermann Goering

XyZspineZyX
10-24-2002, 04:29 PM
I was just about to say that playing on a server with externals off would do alot to negate trim usage.

Trying to fly with a field of view the size of a quarter doesn't get you very far. I discovered this while pulling a split-s in a mig-3. All I could do was time guess as to when I would be level again and wait to get my vision back.

XyZspineZyX
10-24-2002, 04:32 PM
Manicoti wrote:
- Hey Dash 8,how r ya?!!
- It's been awhile since i've seen you.
- How's the flying? It's been real slow here for me.
- WOuld you believe i've only flown 95hrs since last
- October?!!
- Hope to see you around and maybe fly with you
- sometime.
- Take care
-
- PS: i don't know if you'll read this response, but
- if you do and respond, i'll be gone on holidays for
- a week so i'll catch up with you when i get back.
-
- "An excellent weapon and luck had been on my side.
- To be successfful, the best fighter pilot needs
- both"
- Adolph Galland

Mani,
I've been lurking around this board a lot lately. Just haven't had a whole to say. Only 95 hours in a year! Wow that is slow. I've flown about 800 hours since last october. I'll probably be a little under the 1000 yearly limit at the end of December. I'm scheduled for 91 hours next month with only 11 days off (not a lot of time for IL2)
There may be a little less flying in our company in the near future. We lost a Dash 8 near Albany, NY. They hit two Canadian Geese after T.O. but made it back safely. The aircraft is going to be considered 'totalled' by the insurance company due to the the damage. One goose bent and cracked the main wing spar and the other cracked the horizontal stabilizer spar. With two broken spars, its done. Hope it doesn't cut out too much flying.
Hope to fly with you too sometime..

XyZspineZyX
10-24-2002, 07:00 PM
kweassa wrote:
- If using trims is so important in the way they
- effect aiming, turn radius or has some importance in
- that using it during combat acts as a distinctive
- advantage - and advantage enough to make you want to
- set it on a slider, then THE WAY IT IS MODELLED IS
- WRONG. Plain and simple.

That's just the point.

Using trim isn't important during combat acts to achieve a distinctive turning advantage. Many people perceive it as such but it isn't the case. Honest /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Except.... at very high speeds.

At those high speeds you can make astonishing pullouts (20G?).

But again, it isn't the ability to apply trim fast that allows you to make the pullouts. Even if you apply trim slowly (like on the keyboard) you can make those amazing pullouts.

Putting trim on a slider has nothing to do with making those pullouts. And it certainly won't make you turn any faster.


/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
10-24-2002, 07:21 PM
No kidding. That's why it's called a trim cheat. It's not called a slider cheat.

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XyZspineZyX
10-24-2002, 07:34 PM
Dnmy, you have made more than one wrong remark in this thread. If, when you have trim on a slider 'or whatever', and you have not been able to use the minute time it takes to deploy trim in an advantageous manner, in more than one situation at different speeds, then, simply put, you just do not know what you are doing. (Or, you do, you do not just want to admit it.)

-

BuzzU LOL

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XyZspineZyX
10-24-2002, 08:26 PM
I'm getting confused. We seem to have a lot of reasons why trim and/or trim on a slider/rotary is a bad thing. Some of them seem reasonable but some of them are contradictory.

Use of trim in any form

1) Blackouts do not occur when using external views so trim should not be used because it allows one to execute high G manuevers.

2) Structural failures due to excessive G forces are not modelled so trim should not be used because it allows one to execute very high G manuevers.

3) Trim was only used in real life for straight and level flight so it should not be used in combat situations.

4) I don't really understand all the discussion about how control pressures and trim are modelled and used so I don't think anyone should use it because it just seems wrong.

5) Some people are turning sharper than I think they should and the only explanation is that they are using trim.



Trim on a slider or rotary

1) Should not be used because it can be used to execute faster pitch and roll movement than would otherwise be possible.

2) Should not be used because actuation through this means is too fast and is thus unrealistic (sort of like no. 1), even though this fast actuation increases the risk of stall and blackout.

3) Should not be used because it enables bat turns and other extraordinary manuevers (not to be confused with 1 above).

4) Should not be used because in the execution of extraordinary manuevers (no. 2 above) the flight model is "tricked" so that:
a) Energy bleed (drag) dissappears
b) Blackouts (in cockpit) are disabled
c) Elevator throw is increased

5) I don't have a slider or rotary so I don't think anyone should use theirs.

6) Some people are turning sharper than I think they should and the only explanation is that they have trim mapped to a slider/rotary.



It can't be all of them so please help me out.

XyZspineZyX
10-24-2002, 08:50 PM
Oleg just needs to rewrite the code, so the plane acts more in a realistic way, when full trim is applied in a high speed turn. Forget the rest.

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XyZspineZyX
10-24-2002, 09:38 PM
semantics /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Trim cheat/exploit whatever...

I NEVER use trim except for rudder trim. The latter only to set it once (obviously only on planes that have it) to leave it there. I have never experienced any disadvantages from not using (elevator) trim either.

To me, in IL2 it is simply an unimportant secondary flight control (except at high speeds). And i found it much easier to do without trim alltogether. I can fly handsfree just the same. One less control to worry about./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif The only time where it might pay off to use trim is the example in Redwulf's trk's where you can make amazing pullouts at high speeds. At lower speeds where stickforces aren't an issue at all, there's nothing you can do with trim that you can't do with stick alone.

I realize that trimming is important in a real aircraft, but in IL2 it is simply overrated imo (except at high speeds ofcourse).

BuzzU wrote:
- No kidding. That's why it's called a trim cheat.
- It's not called a slider cheat.


/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
10-24-2002, 09:45 PM
O.K. kids its time for another thread

XyZspineZyX
10-24-2002, 09:47 PM
Pastorious wrote:
- O.K. kids its time for another thread


Agree! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Forget trim and its relevance in IL2

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Hunter82
10-24-2002, 10:45 PM
I never use rudder trim because I can't in a 109 /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif


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XyZspineZyX
08-08-2003, 12:55 AM
A blast from the past...

Put your forum on a slider and never look back!

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Cheers,

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XyZspineZyX
08-08-2003, 02:36 AM
quit being an a$$ and moving the oldest thredds up taz


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XyZspineZyX
08-08-2003, 03:21 AM
LeadSpitter_ wrote:
- quit being an a$$ and moving the oldest thredds up
- taz

I second that emotion....


what a maroon.....................

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XyZspineZyX
08-08-2003, 03:22 AM
Good thing trim in FB will still turn your plane as hard as it ever could (in IL2)

All they did was slow the controller surface movement but there are ways to reduce it's travel. My prophesy was only halfway true (of them doing nothing about it)

This was a good fix. I can still use trim to out-turn noobs who don't use it and hardly any people are whining and complaining anymore. (probably because only "aces in the know" use it anymore, not your Joe average Yak driver)

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XyZspineZyX
08-08-2003, 03:26 AM
ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.........

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